photographing/recording musicians

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:27 AM

JIM,I dont mind as long as I am asked, even if it is retrospectively.
flashes[as well as flashers] can be offputting.
I am sure traditional singers such as Harry Cox,found microphones being stuck under their noses in folk clubs off putting,I am sure someone mentioned this about a year ago on a different thread.
With modern technology,recording equipment is now less obtrsuive,
it STILL boils down to a litle subtlety, a little courtesy,Good manners and sensitivity to the singer,and sensitivity to the rest of the audience,numerous people jumping up and down with flashes can spoil other peoples pleasure.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:27 AM

I'm not sure I understand many of the objections to being photographed or recorded - surely it depends on (a) the reason for doing so and (b) the prevailing circumstances.
As far as sessions of traditional music and song are concerned, people record either to learn tunes and songs, or with the intention of trying to relive that session. As long as the recordist is not making him or herself a pain in the arse, I can see no objection to the former. When I was singing, I would have been flattered if the latter were the reason. In a club situation, you always ask. I can say that whenever we recorded at a folk-club, I can never remember having been refused permission.
It is not always possible to get everybody's permission to record during an open session, in which case, a touch of discretion and sensitivity is advisable.
Let's face it, recordings in these circumstances are seldom, if ever publicly usable.
The only objection I can see to photographs is the use of flash, which can be extremely intrusive, with or without permission.
I have to say that if our older traditional singers had adopted a similar prima-dona attitude to being recorded to that which has been displayed here, our repertoires, and our enjoyment and understanding of the tradition would have been very much diminished.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

The principle's the same. If the recording is all kosher with the band, then no problem.

If it's not, it's theft.

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:30 PM

Sorry Bonzo,Led Zeppelin dont interest me much.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:28 PM

Interesting that the first recording of Led Zeppelin at the O2 Arena last Monday had over 10,000 downloads.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:12 PM

Cap -
Oh my, yes - at their request as a matter of fact.
- Phil

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:20 PM

Ask people who take these recordings if they would like other members of the public to come to their place of work on a Monday morning and start recording what they do.

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:12 PM

It is common human courtesy to ask permission to take anything from you, be it your car, your money, your likeness, or an example of your work.

The 'harm in it' is not the point (that's just the old reliable 'straw man' raising its ugly mug)... and just as one can't be just a 'little bit dead', one can neither be 'a little bit robbed from'

Ask me..., and 99.9% of the time I'l say, 'No Probs'..

If one does not ask first, one is an asshole, and I would be very quick to tell one so.

B.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 12:53 PM

presumably you have permission?
I do not mind being photographed providing im asked[like il duce I prefer a sideways profile].providing it is not being used for commercial purposes[including magazines etc]I also feel the same way about recording
I feel it is discourteous not to ask,how do others feel?Dick Miles.
Uncle Phil ,That was the original post,the crux of the matter is,as far as I am concerned, having the courtesy to ask first.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 04:02 AM

Near the start of this thread there was some talk about how no one hesitates to photograph folk performers, but no one would ever photograph a performance of Handel's Messiah. Just for the record, I'll be helping photograph a performance of Handel's Messiah, with full symphony orchestra and chorus, next week (assuming I can find my way home through the winter weather).
- Phil

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Gulliver
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:30 AM

Times are changing--every second kid has a video phone and every second granny a digital camera so one can expect lots more recording. I watched a live kids dance show on TV the other night and practically everyone in the audience (all adults, most pretty old) was filming it.

We get photographed/videoed every week 'cause we play in a touristy area and as long as no-one steps on our toes we don't really give a damn. In fact I'd start getting worried if they stopped doing this...

Don

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Tom Nelligan
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 09:35 PM

In twenty or so years as a part-time folk music journalist, I've asked dozens of performers for permission to photograph them on stage in conection with a concert review or artist profile. Some have been big names in the folk world and some relatively obscure, but I have very rarely been refused. Most artists are thrilled that the magazine I write for these days (Dirty Linen) is going to give them some free publicity and they're happy to cooperate. I've had much more of a problem with venues that prohibit photography, even for working journalists who are attending the show on the press list. (If one particular promoter here in Boston ever wonders why his shows never get reviewed in Linen, it's because I don't do concert reviews that I can't illustrate with a photo.)

I do ask first -- that's just common courtesy. I don't use flash because that's annoying to both the performer and the audience. And on the couple occasions where someone has asked me for a few shots of themselves, I'm happy to oblige.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Snap Happy
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM

"My band did a gig last Saturday, and a friend took a load of informal digi pictures, and sent them to me next day.
Most were rubbish, but a couple were very funny!!
No problem with that at all, just more inserts for the scrapbook."

Thanks for the crit Ralphie! Rubbish, eh? Be very careful - the blackmail material may even yet see the light of day [grins] As you know they were never intended to be works of art - just snaps. But yes, there were a couple of funny ones there - trying to work out whether one of those was the young 15 year olds in cowboy hats, hot pants and boots with the riding crops ,or not!! :-)

Joining in the scrum here, I think the difference with those photos was that they were taken quite openly, at the request of one of the band, and that any of the band that wants them - or possibly even if they don't! - will probably end up with copies (tidied up digitally). They're never going to see the light of any professional publication (unless one of the band commits mass murder, or suffers an ignoble end ) and are purely mementoes of an occasion.

I have taken photos elsewhere, and am still not sure whether I am 100% comfortable about doing it or not. To a large degree I've stopped taking them at concerts, as I personally now find that others doing so distract me (even without flash the lit up screens etc can be distracting), and additionally I've become aware that I'm concentrating on the shots rather than the singing. So on the whole the pix are usually taken before or after someone has performed rather than during. I've also got shots of sessions that I was taking part in - of the friends and others who were also there - but that's a sort of holiday scrap book - since other performers were doing likewise during the same sessions I don't feel quite the discomfort I might have done ... I even have a photo of Jim McFarland taking a photo at a late night session in Whitby this year... and come to that one of Ralphie taking a photo of someone taking a photo at Sidmouth ... so I'm not alone!!

A difficult call nevertheless. However, where the rules and regs say no photography or sound recording allowed I would most CERTAINLY desist!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:09 AM

Cara Dillon's set in Salisbury on Wednesday was really good. I'm so glad that it was recorded!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:56 PM

If a photographer is doing his/her job properly the subject would not know that the photograph was being taken.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:03 PM

And of course Show of Hands positively encourage it indeed.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Stan
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:28 PM

Whatever the legal position is, and that is defined well enough, asking permission in advance is simply a matter of good manners. People have varying reasons for wanting or not wanting to be photographed or recorded. They have a moral right to be consulted and their wishes respected. Good manners cost nothing.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

Out here in middle America I've never had an actual performer in the 3D world object to my taking still pictures. Some big venues, like Starplex in Dallas, prohibit photography and others prohibit professional photography, but most venues don't seem to care. Recording sound, with or without video, is frequently prohibited and I have had my photo kit checked to see if I was carrying recording equipment -- in Winfield for example.

I'm no lawyer, but here is how the legalities have been explained to me for Texas.

Your right to privacy is protected, which means that if I take pictures of you through the windows of your home or in the men's room or your hotel room or any other place you can reasonably expect to be private then you can sue me for taking your picture.

I can take photos in public places. If you try to sue me for taking photos in a public place, the suit will be thrown out of court. If you are politician or performer who actively seeks public attention the suit will be laughed out of court. I generally ask before pictures, but asking is a courtesy not a legal obligation.

A venue, like Starplex, can prohibit photography and toss folks out the door if they catch them taking pictures. If you really don't want your picture taken then ask the venue to prohibit it.

That's about it for taking pictures.

How the pictures are used is a whole different kettle of fish. Let's say I take a picture of you performing on stage at a local bar.

-- If someone publishes my picture along with false information about you ("GUEST, the noted plagiarist, shown here after his arrest for child molestation, has resumed his attacks on gay whales using nuclear weapons"), then you *can* sue the publisher.

-- If someone publishes my picture as editorial content ("GUEST, shown here, recently played a set Uncle Phil's bar"), then you *can't* sue the publisher and win. The same is true of me posting photos to share with family and friends.

-- If someone uses the photo for commercial purposes ("GUEST, shown here, endorses Rustbucket guitar strings"), then you *can* sue the publisher, unless the publisher can show a release, signed by you, saying it was ok to use the photo for that purpose.

The photographer normally is the one who gets the release signed, but that's just a matter of convenience because the photographer is always there when the photo is taken. The release itself actually protects of the user of the photo from being sued. The photographer also needs a signed release to sell pictures to a stock photography company or exhibit some pictures in a gallery. But again, the release is to keep the stock photo company or gallery from being sued, not the photographer. The photographer should have no further legal involvement except in the perverse case of a photographer who lies to the user about having a release.

Where the lawyers get rich is haggling about what is editorial use versus commercial use, ("GUEST, shown here playing on his beloved Rustbucket strings, recently performed Uncle Phil's Bar"); what is libelous and what isn't; does the release actually cover the way the publisher used the photograph, etc, etc, etc.
- Phil

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:09 AM

And of course Show of Hands positively encourage it!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

I just received a phone call.someone who took a photo of me playing for set dancers In Bantry Square.
No Problem, because they have asked my permission,nor do I mind if they ask permission afterwards,and give me a copy of the photo,but anything taken on avideo for you tube[live performance ,I prefer to see first].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ricardo B
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:20 AM

I always remind the audience that they are welcome to record, take photographs, video or whatever. But I only accept audio copies on CD.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:26 AM

But is a session a performance? ;-)

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:59 PM

It can hardly be called an intrusion of privacy unless your performing in the bathroom.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Whelkin
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 09:50 PM

Being photographed or filmed without permission is an intrusion of privacy but it is sadly not illegal. Unauthorised recording of a performance is theft, and should be treated as such.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 07:40 PM

Well said, Lucy. Come to The Tree and snap away, say I! But if you dump us on Youtube can it be of us doing our Spootiskerry set and not bl**dy Black Velvet Band please!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM

And very good it is too.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:07 PM

I once asked John Tams if he minded if I ran a tape of his performance with Stalking Horses around 1991, it was in Sheffield. He said "I'd be flattered". It's usually small minded people who post on sites like this who object. In 28 minutes time I will have downloaded Cara Dillon's set in Salisbury last night. Thank goodness someone had the sense to record it.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Young Buchan
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 04:56 PM

Someone once sketched me while I was singing. I suspect that proves I sing songs that are too long!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ronny
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

Anyone photographing or recording a live performance of any kind without prior permission is, in my book, asking for a good clout. They should at least be thrown off the premises. It's the height of ignorance and can often detract from the quality of the performance. There are also copyright issues where recordings are concerned.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:59 PM

Interesting reading for someone, like me, who goes to see a lot of live music.

It really pisses me off when a photographer thinks he has the right to distract the listeners just to take his damn pictures. I'm talking idiot photographers who take flash pictures during the performance, idiots snap away while standing between the performer and the listeners, idiots who prowl in front to stage banging around a giant telephoto lens they could use to photograph gnats on Jupiter, idiots, like one I saw last summer, who wander onstage during a show to take a few snaps, etc, etc.
- Phil

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

Interesting reading for someone, like me, who takes performance photos.

I understand why someone would object audio recording and performance videos – competing with the artists CD sales, distribution of the artist's music without their permission, distribution of inferior versions of the artist's music and so on. However none of this seems to apply to still photos.

Around here (Texas, USA, Western Hemisphere, Earth) there are few, if any, legal prohibitions to taking photographs in public places (photography legal issues have to do with how they are used, not how they are taken). However, I generally ask before taking performance pictures anyway, which usually means talking to someone from the venue rather than the artist, for various reasons.

I also frequently share photos with performers and/or event organizers, especially if I get a particularly good shot. I was talking to a touring singer, who used a photo of mine of a while back, about fan photos. She says she receives lots of fan photos, but most of them are not very flattering. That's not surprising since, as others have already pointed out in this thread, it's hard to take good performance photos.
- Phil

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Hawker
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 01:28 PM

I Love singing and playing, I have no agenda, If someone wants to risk breaking their camera by using it to take a pic or a video of me, thats is their risk to take! If they record one of my own creations, thats fine too, even better if they learn it and sing it / play it, that is wot it was writ for! In fact I'd see that as a great honour that someone liked a tune / song well enough to want to play / sing it themselves, I can think of no better compliment. I am not playing music / singing to make a living, I am doing it for enjoyment, if I give enjoyment to others in the process I am more than happy, though I am well aware that this is not necessarily the case for all people on this site.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:45 PM

I would appreciate any live recordings of Dick and Sue Miles[Weir]if there are any out there.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM

classy versions of The Wild Rover

Yes, by Andy Turner (who swore he'd never do it till he found one), and by Jim Causley.

But, Nightmare On Castle Street? Yes, I was there on the studio floor. I know because someone else there told me I was. But Hans Fried recorded the songs from the play (audio line out only, who had a video recorder then?) and thus gained his Andy Warhol 15 minutes. Yes, I've talked with Arena producers since. But what I said of use is a bit unclear but I always watch replays if I can because of that nice screen credit.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:12 AM

Let us, in general, be thankful for unauthorised recordings. When we consider that the powers-that-be spend their days doing things like deleting Bob Dylan's "Mad House in Castle Street"(who'd be interested in that old stuff, eh?), it is a jolly good thing that various individual anarcho-recorders are out there. Though they weren't, alas, for Madhouse.
    Mind you, I'm also totally with Dick Miles in his irritation with some unauthorised or uncredited photographs/videos/sound recordings. It is the uncredited subsequent use that is particularly annoying. But, as Ralphie sagely pointed out earlier, maybe the best thing to do about things that are annoying is not to get annoyed by them. Difficult, but it's often the only option!

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM

Ralphie you can control it,you ask to have items removed.
In the same way, when one makes a recording it states quite clearly,no unauthorised recording without permission,that is what copyright law is all about.
now I think you tube is excellent,but material should not be put up without the artists permission,and personally I would want to see the video first:because I can sit at home and make my own video of myself and select the best of a couple of takes,I then have control over my material.
you may have been there and done it,but you are not suffering, I am,and no I cant record it again, exactly as it was because the same session musicians are not available.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:59 AM

Dick.
As far as I know, I do not appear on You Tube.
And if I did, I don't really care if it was a good or bad performance. I couldn't control it, even if I wanted to.
Life's too short for me to be bothered.
The Web is a Pandoras box, which was opened many years ago.
Live with it.
And please, let us not open the can of worms that is Celtic Music.
Been there, done that.
Ralph

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

As regards you tube,I have no objection providing I can check the material first.an artist has a right to have control over his own material.
Ihave in the past allowed people to record me[if it is not for commercial purposes]and generally speaking they have asked
This is one of my gripes regarding Celtic Music,the suppression of my recorded material,
however one lp that they do not own,has three tracks out there on dickmilesmusic youtube.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 05:17 AM

Steve Old Fruit!
Exactly....

Common sense really.

My band did a gig last Saturday, and a friend took a load of informal digi pictures, and sent them to me next day.
Most were rubbish, but a couple were very funny!!
No problem with that at all, just more inserts for the scrapbook.

On another track, seeing as part of this discussion is about having photos being published without permission, I discovered that in the Sidmouth retrospective book published a couple of years ago, there is a pic of me....I was dead chuffed!!
(Mind you, you have to look very hard to see me!)

But, there again, I'm not Paul McCartney, (substitute any other name here).
I don't have an agenda, but if a TV crew wanted to film me (In my dreams) I'd expect to be paid for it.
Sadly, nobody seems to want to. Sob!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:36 AM

Ralphie was the intended recipient there.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

Coo, rescued by your last sentence! ;-) I only wish I was good enough to attract the attentions of video crews and the like. I would heartily disapprove, but at least that's one row I wouldn't mind having! But a little photo or MD recording - where's the harm in that.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

I was at a local jazz gig in Galway last night. I knew they were keen to have some shots for their website, so brought along a recenty acquired, rather nice, digital camera. Not enough light to avoid flash. I waited till the last number then got into position and took a set as discreetly as possible (i.e. flash and a good zoom). The lady who currently runs the club shot across to me and I thought "Ooops!". In fact what she said was "Great! I forgot my camera tonight - can we have some copies please?." Of course!

Regards
p.s. For jazz heads: the group featured Bill Carrothers - excellent.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:03 AM

OK.
Let's get back on topic folks.
I'm in a quandary regarding media intrusion of any kind.

Example 1
About a year before he died, I was recording (Legitamately) Ivor Cutler at a concert in London for the BBC.
He stopped mid song at one point, and quietly said to a member of the audience.."Are you recording me?"........long pause......."Don't".

Example 2
Well known UK singer on spotting a video crew at the back of the hall, walked off stage, only returning when they'd left.

I would say that their actions were totally justified.

It all comes down to courtesy in the end.
If I'm playing in a session, and someone has a minidisc recorder as an aide memoire to learn a tune or two, no harm is done IMHO,

If it's obviously a professional (Vid/Audio/Photographer) then I would expect the people to seek permission first.

But then.....If it hadn't been for the bootleg recordings (not all, admittedly!!) of Nic Jones, then I wouldn't have been able to produce the Unearthed CD....Go figure!!

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:39 AM

To me this thread seemed a bit innocent at the start but there now seems that there was a hidden agenda. It was interesting enough until I felt like I was being drawn into someone's personnal laundry day.
You got some cleaning up to do Dick, or a bone to pick do it elsewhere!

Barry

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 10:54 PM

Not too many are big enough to apologize, I'll grant you that.
Nevertheless, this is the second defamatory thread in as many weeks. (not by you)
Time of year, I suppose.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:40 PM

There was a caption that said, Buskers Temple bar Dublin,if they were not buskers, why are you printing false information.
Jim lad ,
yes indeed I would have done if I had remembered he was a member ,unfortunately I didnt,Ihave apologised.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:27 PM

wHEN THEREIS ACAPTION THAT SAYS b

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Jim Lad
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:56 PM

No. Dick you could have emailed this guy and settled things in private.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:49 PM

Dick,

Thanks for your apology.

Subject: RE: photographing/recording musicians
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:44 PM

I apologise,and perhaps you might have the grace to apologise for your crass,and impolite remarks on Cross fertilisation thread on FROOTS,to which Ian Anderson had to remind you that everyone was entitled to ask questions,providing they were polite,you were completely out of order.
If you go around being out of order you must expect an adverse reaction,now lets get back to the thread.