A Mandolin Technical Question

Subject: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Volgodon
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:49 PM

This might seem like a silly question, so please be patient with an utter beginner. I've bought an A style mandolin with a round soundhole. Since I'm left handed I would preffer to play that way, so is it naive of me to simply turn the mandolin round and pick left-handed?

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Left handed guitar
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 06:59 PM

I took one (only one) and I think you can do it that way. Chords are easy to make and pickin' notes up and down the neck shouldn't make a difference. (It would be impossible to do this with five string banjo btw, b/c part of the neck is cutaway and the nut is on the neck).Mandolin seems like you could play this way, and there are certainly enough guitar players,known and unknown, who have done it.

Purists would argue you should restring, but you will be joining the small but elite crowd of lefties who play 'upside down and backwards,' including Bill Staines, Libba Cotton, Jimi Hendrix and Babyface.

Go for it!

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:01 PM

P.S.- I meant to say that I took one (only one) lesson on mandolin. Sorry: this laptop is harder to strum than a mandolin.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:02 PM

Jimi Hendrix didn't play "upside down and backwards ".

Elizabeth Cotton did, but not Hendrix.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM

Hendrix DID. According to reports, he could play left handed the 'proper way'(restrung) and leftie on a right handed guitar, and even right handed guitar in a pinch. He could pretty much play that thing on fire.

Also, a good amount of bluesman in the old South wound up playing that way.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:16 PM

The simple answer is "Yes" it is a bit naive.

If you just flip the mando over, finger patterns on the fret board will be "upside down" and combinations that are fairly standard in ordinary play may be difficult or impossible. You may or may not be able to work out "different but usable" fingerings, but you'll be essentially reinventing the instrument.

If you re-string so that the high string is back at the top, so that you can "mirror image" the fret-finger patterns, a proper job of restringing would require re-fitting the nut slots to seat the strings properly, and if the mando has a compensated bridge you'd probably need a "left handed bridge" to get proper intonation. You probably would want a left-handed pick guard too.

From the standpoint of playing left-handed, to some extent you really do need to turn the instrument into a left-handed instrument, and how successful that will be depends a lot on the instrument and on the skills of the one doing the conversion.

Some few people do play left-handed, and you'll likely get more useful advice about the "practicality" of what you're thinking of doing from someone who's tried it and can discuss any problems they've found. It isn't too commonly done, and there's probably several good reasons why it isn't a popular approach.

Have you also asked about this at the mandolin cafe?

John

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:25 PM

Something to consider:

On any stringed instrument, the fretting or fingering hand is the one that requires the most flexibility and—if I may use the word (from the Greek, dexios, the right hand), dexterity. So a left-hander actually has an advantage when learning to play a "right-handed" instrument right-handed. No restringing, no turning the instrument over, no specially constructed left-handed instruments.

You don't see any left-handed violins, cellos, or pianos, do you?

Try it in the "normal" or "right-handed" position. It may feel a bit awkward at first, but it's been my experience in teaching guitar that southpaws actually tend to learn a bit faster, especially left-hand fingering, if they play a standard guitar and just leave the strings as is.

Another advantage. If you're asked to play and you don't have your own instrument with you, and some right hander passes you his or her mandolin, you can play it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:30 PM

If you're asked to play and you don't have your own instrument with you, and some right hander passes you his or her mandolin, you can play it.

Of course that would apply whichever way Volgodon decides to play a standard strung instrument.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:50 PM

I don't have a lefty instrument or the money. I wanted some advice before I waste a lot of time and effort to play it flipside if it isn't really effective. If it works, that would be a lot easier than forcing my mind to think unnaturally.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 09:24 PM

A lot of the learning on any instrument is more muscle memory training than "thinking," and playing in a way that seems "left handed" to you at the beginning shouldn't be much of a real hurdle. By the time you've become familiar enough with the instrument to think about advancing your skills, regardless of which way you decide to do it, practice should override any handedness that's initially built into how it feels.

If you just flip the instrument over, you'll find the vast number of instruction books, and even the personal advice you can get from friends will require lots of "rethinking" to figure out what has to be changed. Some of it may work, but some of it won't.

And that some really exceptional players have done bizarre things before you isn't much to go on. Evel Knievel jumped motorcycles over long rows of buses as a regular act, but I wouldn't suggest it as a passtime for most - (with the possible exception of a few rednecks I've known, who aren't prone to following good advice in any case).

John

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 09:42 PM

this old chestnut just keeps on resurfacing, doesn't it ?

Jimi Hendrix played a right handed Stratocaster which was strung with the strings opposite to what a right handed player would use, so, playing left handed , the bass E string was still nearest to the floor OK ?

Totally unlike Elizabeth Cotton, who played a normal strung right handed guitar left handed.

Is this difficult to understand ?

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Songster Bob
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:45 AM

"Jimi Hendrix played a right handed Stratocaster which was strung with the strings opposite to what a right handed player would use, so, playing left handed , the bass E string was still nearest to the floor OK ?"

Huh? I don't know much about Hendrix, but if he played a strat with the strings changed around, wouldn't the low E be on top, just like for a righty? I mean, he plucked with his left hand and fretted with the right, right? So he was playing left-handed. A restrung guitar, played left-handed, would have the low E string "on top."

I'm going online to look at Hendrix concert pictures. I'll be right back.

...

It looks from this photo
that he has the small strings closer to the floor than the heavy ones -- so the guitar is re-strung from right-hand playing.

So he used a re-strung guitar, played left-handed.


Bob

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 01:40 AM

my mistake, Bob, of course you are correct, the treble E is closest to the floor, and as you say, Hendrix played a restrung guitar, played left-handed.

My original point still holds good however, namely that this is different to how Elizabeth Cotton played, which was a normal right-janded guitar, played left-handed.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: jonm
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:35 AM

I've been playing mandolin like this for nigh-on twenty years!

As a guitar player, the first time I saw a mandolin up close I asked if I could have a go and how was it tuned - GDAE - so I turned it upside-down, thought EADG and suddenly all the guitar chords on the bottom four strings work.

Since the neck is narrow, I've rarely had a problem with reaching or fretting notes on the higher strings. I play some celtic, some American old-time and some bluegrass without problem.

It gives me an instrument I can borrow in a session event when there are no lefty guitars.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 03:38 AM

I've known two left handed mandolin players who just flip a standard instrument over, and both were very good players. I've known right handed players who were lousy.
I don't think it is a straightforward answer. Learning a stringed instrument where one hand does something different from the other is not a natural thing to do. Some people take to it and others just never manage.
I suspect that stringing an instrument in anything not "standard" probably makes some things more difficult, but may make other stuff possible which wouldn't work in normal set-up.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 03:40 AM

Check the bracing inside to see if it's not weighted to one side or the other. This might seem a minor niggle but a lot of nylon strung guitars do not have symmetrical bracing, but are 'stiffened up' on the bass string side.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

Thanks for the pros and cons and good advice.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

My brother-in-law is left-handed but he plays the fiddle the normal way, using his left hand for notes and the right for the bow. I think it's just the way you learn, and muscle memory does play a very important role. So once you've learnt, where's the problem going to be?

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:16 PM

Best thing would be to take it to a luthier - someone who makes guitars and the like.

If you reverse the strings the nut will have the wide grooves for the bass strings on the bottom. Also there may be other adjustments. For example - it depends on what sort of tailpiece you have. You could not do this, but I think you would have tuning problems. Get an expert on the job - they see hundreds of instruments a year, and as a class of humanity they can be very wise indeed.

Mind you I am only a guitarist, but my Dad was a mandolin player.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:35 PM

my partner is left handed,and plays fiddle and button accordion right handed,and can be seen on youtube cathycook 1.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM

I'd strongly advise starting to play right handed if you can persevere with it. As you improve, the dreaded Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome will set in, and there is simply more choice for a right hander when looking for a decent mandolin. My daughter is left handed, and she is starting to play mando a bit (she's a hell of a pianist, but doesn't play fretted instruments.) I asked her about this just now, and her advice was the same; she says it doesn't really make a difference once the muscle memory is there. If you do decide to play lefty, I'd advise buying a decent quality lefty mandolin; it can cost serious money to swap a mandolin round, especially if you want a proper job doing on the nut, reversing and recompensating the bridge and possibly re-doing the top bracing. I've done a couple, and it's fiddly.
Tim

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 01:05 PM

Ahem . . . I believe that photo of Jimi Hendrix is not a photo, but a painting.

By the way, I'm naturally right-handed, but due to a physical disability, when I wanted to learn to fence, I discovered that to make it work, I would have to learn to fence left-handed. It just took a little mental shifting of gears, but it worked. I managed to garner a few trophies and medals handling foil, saber, and épée with my "off" hand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Stewart
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 02:37 PM

Volgodon:
If you feel more comfortable playing lefty by all means do so. As a lefty myself, I would advise against just turning a righty upside down. The chord positions are such that the bass strings (G)should be on top, i.e. closer to your head. There are enough good lefty mandos, banjos and guitars for sale to satisfy your MAS at a later time. A bonus, very few people want to try out your instrument!
Good Luck
Stewart

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Stewart
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 03:35 PM

"On any stringed instrument, the fretting or fingering hand is the one that requires the most flexibility and—if I may use the word (from the Greek, dexios, the right hand), dexterity. So a left-hander actually has an advantage when learning to play a "right-handed" instrument right-handed. No restringing, no turning the instrument over, no specially constructed left-handed instruments."

    I would beg to differ with Don on the above quote.
    If you examine a flamenco guitar player or a good
    clawhammer banjo player, you would have to agree
    that the "music" is in the hand that provides the
    percussive duties, i.e. the left hand in the case
    of a lefty player. Piano, well, that's a different
    story.
    Stewart

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Volgodon
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:32 PM

Alright, I think I'll try the normal way way. Seems to have the least complications invovled. Thanks to everyone who helped.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:28 AM

Watch someone like Paco de Lucia, then tell me that his left hand isn't as important--or more important--than his right. No way. There is only a limited number of movements the right hand has to do. Far less complicated than the intricate scale patterns that a good flamenco guitarist plays--with his left hand. Been there, done that. Took a bunch of lessons from a genuine Spanish flamenco guitarist.

And with a mandolin, plucking strings with a plectrum, even in intricate patterns, is nowhere near as complex as scale work (i.e., playing melodies).

Bluegrass banjo is another animal altogether.

Good choice, Volgodon. Stick with it. Good luck and have fun!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: redsnapper
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:35 AM

And with a mandolin, plucking strings with a plectrum, even in intricate patterns, is nowhere near as complex as scale work (i.e., playing melodies).

I see.

RS (mandolin and guitar player for 45 years and close observer of virtuosi like Chris Thile and Simon Mayor)

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:52 AM

There is no left or right-handed way to play the guitar/banjo/mandolin ( unlike playing tennis, or whatever), because it is a two-handed instrument! This subject has been discussed at length before. I feel this desire to play "left-handed" comes from the "first encounter" syndrome! By that, I mean when anyone ( left or right-handed) picks up a guitar, banjo, mandolin or even a sitar for the first time, all they can really do is run there fingers over the strings (i.e they won't be able to form chords or play melodies) and they will naturally do that with their best hand. But, it is a two-handed instrument. Learn to play in the othodox position - you will enjoy the instrument a lot more that way.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

As a clawhemmer banjo player (right hander) I can vouch that all the serious difficult work is done with the left hand on the fingerboard. All the right hand needs to do is keep in time and find a fingernail that can hit the right string more often than not. Even if it hits a different string, it will play something that fits in with the rest of the tune.
Of course, a mandoline is not a banjo.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:10 PM

Hemmer??????
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

Tunesmith has the right of it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM

"All the right hand needs to do is keep in time and find a fingernail that can hit the right string more often than not"


Oh dear - you should never under-estimate what your right hand can do

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

I don't underestimate what my right hand can do....
Pick my nose...
Scratch my head...
pluck those annoying hairs from my unwanted locations...
click the buttons on the stopwatch...
turn on the telly...
BUT :-
When it comes to clawhammer banjo, the right hand "lead" finger nail hits one note in four. The pulling off and hammering on is the left hand.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST,Stewart
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 10:09 AM

A really oldtimer fiddler once told me that "it's all in the bow, you could train a monkey to do the fingering." A little exagerated but look at it this way. If you only had a strumming hand, you could make some sort of music. If you only had a chording hand, your S**t out of luck.
Stewart

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: Bernard
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 11:30 AM

As a teacher I've always found that left-handers learning from scratch on a 'right-handed' instrument do better than their right-handed counterparts, which suggests to me that right-handers are the ones who would benefit more from turning the instrument around!

Subject: RE: A Mandolin Technical Question
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 11:32 AM

Touche Bernard!
Left is right :o)

Stewart