irish traditional music/ rural pubs

Subject: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:50 AM

The Irish government is considering reducing the drink breathalyser limit,this will undoubtedly speed the closure of many rural pubs in Ireland.
some people think that Irish Traditional music will suffer,others hope that that people will play[ITM] in houses[aka Rambling Houses].
however[imo] tourists will be less inclined to come Ireland for several reasons,
1. if they cant see ITM in the environment of a pub
2.If there is a reduction in pubs /eating places[particuarly in rural areas],
do people think this is a good or bad thing,Dick Miles

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:59 AM

What is the limit at present?
My OH drives me to drink.....and I drive home, having been brought up TT anyway. So I think that there should be no compromise on safety.

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: redsnapper
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:36 AM

It is a good thing. The fatality/injury statistics on Irish roads are very bad (I am Irish but live in Scotland).

It would be a big shame if this would affect ITM in rural pubs but the answer is what Mo the Caller said. I have driven all round Ireland for ITM but have never found it necessary to drink and drive which is foolish and criminal.

RS

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

fair comment,but at the present moment people can drive around under the influence of Cannabis ,ecstasy,Heroin, Cocaine.,and get away scot free
so what happens is that a message is sent out to teenagers ,who may then decide to take illegaL Drugs,rather than alcohol, and drive.
the road statistics are bad ,because many people drive too fast,drink is only one of the factors involved.
REDSNAPPER,It has affected us already,soon there will not be any rural pubs for you to visit anyway.
it is not criminal to drive under the influence of alcohol,providing you are not over the limit.
the legal limit here is 80 ,and there are two proposals to reduce it to 20 or 50 .
Finally in rural ireland, there is very little public transport ,and very few taxis compared to the population ,[IMO]The Irish government should not reduce the limit in rural areas,until they have provided a proper infrastructure of public transport.
what will happen as pubs close down, is that there will be more drinking at home[unsupervised],which will probably lead to more domestic violence ,[at thepresent time a woman can get some break from an aggressive husband,if he is absent at the pub for some hours]
there will be more people moving from rural areas to the cities,rural Ireland could face big problems through this ill thought out proposal.

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: kerry and Mandy
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 10:53 AM

hi Dick
we run a club in the middle of the Romney Marshes in kent and its remote to say the least, and its packed every month. we find that people who want to come will share cars and alternate driveing or just not drink on that night.
as you know we both enjoy a good drink, but we take it turns, and i would hope most people do the same.
if people are passionate about thier music and want to play with others and have a great night, then the drink drive laws are irrelevent, you dont need to drink to have a fantastic night of music and song.
take care
kerry and mandy

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: GUEST,Legal Eagle
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

Captain Birdseye, I think you're wrong about driving in Ireland while under the influence of drugs.

Here's what Ireland's 1994 Road Traffic Act has to say before it even gets on to the issue of breathalysers.

'A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while he is under the influence of an intoxicant to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle. In this subsection 'intoxicant' includes alcohol and drugs and any combination of drugs or of drugs and alcohol.'

In other words, a driver can be nicked by the Gardaí if they deem said driver to be incapable because of ingestion of alcohol or drugs (and the Act does not define whether said drugs might be purchased in pharmacies, prescribed or proscribed). And, in terms of alcohol, one can be considered 'incapable' even if below the legal limit.

Indeed, Ireland's 'road statistics are bad' and speeding is the main cause of fatalities, but the majority of these occur in conurbations when people are busting the 50 or 60kph limit, not in rural areas.

Your suggestion that Ireland should not reduce its breathalyser levels until 'they have provided a proper infrastructure of public transport' is ambitious, but unlikely to succeed. Unless there's evidence of the need for such services (which, for instance, resulted in the Letterkenny-Ballybofey night bus) and/or potential profit for bus companies then they just won't happen.

Your part of rural Ireland must be different because, on my travels, I've never found anywhere in the country where it was impossible to book a taxi late at night.

Lastly, you make the huge assumption that violence in the home is always instigated by the man against the woman. There are many battered husbands in Ireland! I'm glad to say that I'm not one myself.

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:36 PM

I think people will continue to drive in pretty much all the same situations in which they currently drive. People with a few drinks in them will continue to display the same overconfidence and bravado as ever ~ some with good-enough reason. Different people with different body-weights and different psychologies have vastly different tolerances for alcohol and other mood-altering substances, and there are many who are perfectly capable of safe driving, even with a blood-alcohol level slightly above the legal limit (and especially if that legal limit is low).

Although there may well be a brief period of extra-enthusiastic enforcement for a brief period once such a new law is enacted, in the long run, and in general, drivers will be pulled over and breathilized only when they have drawn attention to themselves by erratic behavior on the road.

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: Whistlepenny
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:48 PM

I don't think this is anything new. I was in some wonderful sessions in Westport, Co Mayo ten years ago where all the musicians drank fizzy water because they had to drive home and the Guards were getting serious about drink-driving. They said that after a while they realised how much better the music is when people don't drink too much, so it didn't bother them any more.

ITM will survive because it makes you feel BETTER than booze can ever do - and you don't get a hangover!

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:45 PM

Captain, in terms of the music, I don't know but keep in mind for most tourists to Ireland traditional music is not the lure for going to Ireland. I think most first timers to Ireland do encounter traditional music somehow while there, although it might be mixed with some bad U2 or Daniel O'Donnell covers as well!
The good thing is that they will hear some music though. The point about drink and driving is fine, but I think most people consider a visit to Ireland is not complete without a visit to a pub. I think if the problem of drinking and driving is a problem in Ireland, then you need to toughen up the penalties, damn all the consequences because you are saving potential lives. Tourism will survive, and the music will survive as well. Direct answer to your question, tourism will NOT suffer in Ireland, just look at how many flights come into Ireland on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

Tourism will survive, but many rural sessions may not. It's already difficult to find them outside of the summer season.

As regards lowering the limit to .50 or .20, you can surpass that by looking at a pint. Might as well make drinking illegal altogether.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

Sessions can't survive without keeping up the drink?

Barry

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: mg
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:47 PM

Maybe it will have a good effect on rural hotels, B&B etc. in that people will get a room within walking distance. People have ways of adapting...mg

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: SussexCarole
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:55 PM

How strange is it that English tourists will eagerly go to Ireland to find traditional music but will happily dismiss the English Morris dancers, trad singers and session players in England as 'sad'

Subject: RE: irish traditionalmusic/ rural pubs
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:32 AM

One wonders how traditional music survived in Ireland previous to the invention of the internal combustion engine.

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:47 AM

people travelled by horse and cart,unfortunately this is no longer a serious option because of the maniacs who drive too fast[often sober].often the animal knew his way home,even if the driver was over the limit.
The internal combustion engine has changed Irish Society irreversibly,it would be unfair on the animal now, to go out at nightime,with the present crop of speed feaks/boyracers that are on the road .

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Whistlepenny
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:50 PM

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This is probably because the English media have always ridiculed English trad stuff - every reference to it is riddled with cliches. Things may be changing though, thanks to Ms Carthy & her generation. It seems to be a bit more respected these days - let's hope!

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM

There was an interesting thread on sessions in Ireland on Concertina.net recently, though the discussion is starting to drift off topic.

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:46 PM

"Sessions can't survive without keeping up the drink?"

I agree with Barry. I've seen too many results of drinking/driving, and it just ain't worth it. If a 'session' is another excuse for a person to get blotto (drunk? pissed? four sheets to the wind?), then it really isn't about the music to begin with, imo.

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:15 PM

Peace,You are right: but there is a difference between drinking sensibly[two pints over two to three hours and after a meal]and getting blotto,at the present moment the drinking I described[particuarly if you leave 20 minutes to half an hour from the time you have finished your drink ,before you drive].would not put you over the IRISH legal limit.
In the part of rural Ireland[that I live in]there are no trains ,no night buses,and in lots of places, no buses at all,A miniscule amount of taxis per population[who wants to ferry people about when there are much easier jobs available],there are also many boy racers and speed freaks driving like maniacs[even though they are sober] ,it becomes unsafe to walk down a country lane for a couple of miles with these idiots about.The point is seesions and pubs will not be there any more,in rural areas[if the Irish government reduce the alcohol limit further].
I have been driving for thirty five years, have been breathalysed but have always passed,because I am careful about how and when I drink,When Iam driving,
I have also had my house damaged by a speed freak[who was perfectly sober but lost control].
I would have no objection to the limit being lowered if there was public transport/taxis for one to get home,or if it was safe for a person to walk home 4 miles down unlit country lanes[no way with these boy racers about].

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 08:46 PM

As is often the case in these kind of things though, the baby tends to get thrown out with the bathwater, and the sensible drinker with a clean licence can end up on the wrong side of a drink driving conviction.

In Norway, they brought it down to 20/1000 a number of years ago.
Now, I haven't drank alcohol in many many years, and I was stopped on the road out of Oslo one afternoon, driving up the country for a gig.
The only things I had in my system was about 3 litres of coffee, a few glasses of squeezed orange juice, and about 5 or 6 cloves of garlic, as I was absolutely dying with the flu at the time.
But sober as a judge as far as legal/illegal substances were concerned.

I failed the breath test, and it was in no small part due to the 'corroborative evidence' of my then girlfriend that I was begrudgingly let go instead of being brought handcuffed to a hospital where they would have taken a blood sample.

When the policeman was finally 'convinced' that I had been telling him the truth all the time, I asked him why my reading should have turned up such results.

"It must have been the orange juice....,", he said "... perhaps the garlic."

"Ahh," I said. "... a little alcohol, orange juice, and garlic tester..., all in one wee box. Isn't technology wonderful, all the same? Good day, Constable"

B.

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Goose Gander
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:31 AM

I suppose I'm lucky to live someplace where most places I want to go are within walking distance.

And as the Captain has implied, accidents are caused by unsafe drivers, not necessarily drivers who've had a few pints.

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:40 AM

"In the part of rural Ireland[that I live in]there are no trains ,no night buses,and in lots of places, no buses at all"

Captain, in the part of New Hampshire I live in there are no local buses, the express to Boston stops by only in the morning & returns only in the afternoon, nothing after 6:00 anywhere. There's no public transport & we have 1 taxi & she quits at 4:30-5:00 pm. After that you walk, hitchhike (not if the police catch you) or drive/ride. There's no one in my town or even near by that goes to sessions so I drive. I don't drink, easy as that, it's still worth going out to a session though, 2 or 3 times a week if possible. I'd enjoy some sessions even more if a few others would cut down on their drink, some of them are real pains in the asses after they've had a few but there are always a few, the drink only makes them worst.

As for failing tests, in the far distant past I failed testing twice when I did nothing. I believe my asthma medsmay have set them off but I really never found out for sure. I was told that there are many things; spices, sauces & other common digestables can cause an incorrect readin but the blood tests are much more reliable.
If I failed a test now I would request a blood test right afterwards

Barry

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:00 AM

A possible solution - have the bar owners invest in a shuttle-van or 2 to take people home for a small fee.
The fee would cover the wage for a driver, and the fuel costs.
The drinkers would be able to drink all they wanted, thereby filling the saloon-keepers' pockets, and the drinkers wouldn't be driving with a skinful.
Oh, I've just described a taxi-service, haven't I?

Except that in the extreme rural areas described by Capt. Birdseye, there are no taxi-services.

So a little entrepreneurial spirit from the bar owners would ensure that they stay in business.

Captain, what is more likely to keep (American) tourists away is the steep price of everything in Ireland, and the exchange rate. 2 weeks ago it was $1.50 to the Euro. And it's cheaper to buy a pint of Guinness here in the U.S. than it is in Dublin.

Seamus

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 04:32 AM

fair comments,Seamus,Brendy, Micheal,Barry,still rural pubs are closing rapidly,and while people like myself still play at home for enjoyment,part of the music is about going out and socialising[Idont mean getting blotto,or even drinking,but having the Craic],if there is nowhere to do it, it wont be done.

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 05:13 AM

Don't worry, if it's enjoyable, they'll stop it (apart from lager louts shouting at "football", not that that's enjoyable to any civilised person)

Subject: RE: irish traditional music/ rural pubs
From: ejsant
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 06:50 AM

According to the NHTSA (www.nhtsa.gov), the US agency charged with the safety of our nation's highways and byways, the lowering, and it could be argued the establishing, of the legal limit has done little to change the number of traffic deaths in the US related to alcohol consumption, less than one half of one percent.

From the agency's September 2007 report entitled "Motor Vehicle Traffic Crash Fatality Counts and Estimates of People Injured for 2006":

Fatalities at BAC ≥ .08 g/dL Increased slightly (0.1%)
Fatalities at .01 ≥ BAC ≤ .07 g/dL declined slightly (0.4%)

Why continue approaching this in this way I ask?

Peace,
Ed