Licensing Act (UK) possible change?

Subject: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:44 AM

Some of you will already have been circulated by Hamish Birchall as follows: -

"Licensing minister Gerry Sutcliffe has promised a public consultation on a small gigs exemption:

'The Department [DCMS] will consult in the new year on whether de minimis licensing activities, which could include certain live music performances, should be exempt from the scope of the Act.' [de minimis is a Latin tag meaning trivial or unworthy of the law's attention]

Sutcliffe's offer came during last week's Select Committee debate (Thu 29 Nov). The minister's promise went further than the vague commitments offered by the government during the Lords' debate on 15 October.

For the Hansard transcript of the Select Committee debate see: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmgeneral/deleg5/071129/71129s01.htm

The government also announced another public licensing consultation last week, this time on whether 'minor variations' should be easier, such as a variation to allow an acoustic music night, for example:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Press_notices/archive_2007/dcms146_07.htm

So things appear to be moving in a sensible direction, if rather slowly. Now might be a good time to write to your MP, reminding them that the Live Music Forum - the government's own live music think tank - recommended a small gigs exemption back in July 'as a matter of some urgency': http://www.writetothem.com/"



While to my mind small electric gigs are perhaps harshly treated, the most absurd provision of the legislation is that unamplified music is treated as regulated entertainment. In my view if premises already hold an type of licence under the Act, that licence should automatically permit musical performances without electrical amplification.

If anyone is to press their MPs, that, I think, might be the point to press them on.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:58 AM

Thanks for putting this up, Richard. Absolutely follow Richard/Hamish's line - and ask your MP to add Traditional English Drama to the exemptions at the same time. As it is theatre, not music, a separate drama variation is currently needed & no-one thought to get one. Mumming is not 'like' morris because it's drama, not dance!

It looks as thought they might be trying to put it right. Let's hope so - but it needs your push to your MP.

Tom

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:34 AM

yes, tom, mumming and hoodening should be added as exempt too.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:44 AM

We (trac) have a meeting with the Minister for Heritage of the Welsh Assembly Government on 17th January to present the petition we've been putting together over the last 6 months. It calls for the Westminster Government to change the law according to the Live Music Forum recommendations but (and this is the reason we're going to the Assembly) it calls on the Assembly to offer Wales, as a distinct 'region', to trial the changes.

We've worked with Hamish on this and we're playing on the fact that the original process 'forgot' that Culture and Local Authorities were devolved powers to Scotland and Wales (and N Ireland?) so there should have been more formal consultation at the start. Also, that we now have a coalition government and allowing people to sing in pubs in Wales is one issue that both Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru should agree on. We also have a friendly Liberal Democrat in the Assembly who feels strongly about this, and there's no way the Tories would come out against singing in Wales so ...

... We'll see how we get on.

sian


sian

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:59 AM

Sounds like a good hole to drive through.

However to clear up any misconceptions - the Licensing Act 2003 did not apply to Scotland. That was one of the more ludicrous aspects of it.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Betsy
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:21 AM

Richard , I (and I hope we all) appreciate your surveillance and reporting of this matter in the manner in which you have done so.
I, and I suspect many others, don't have the time , inclination or the interest to pursue the movements in this debate, so your delivery is invaluable to simple people like myself who like to hear, and take part in acoustic sessions and musical get-togethers.
Thanks again,much appreciated.

Cheers ,Betsy .

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:24 AM

Light at the end of the tunnel at last?
Thanks for the up-date Richard.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:13 AM

Folkiedave, yeh - I realized that I was mixing concepts there. The point I was making is that Westminster - elected reps and, perhaps more importantly - have a habit of forgetting that some powers have been devolved. This happens to the Scots as well as to the Welsh but not, of course, in this specific case.

So ... what is the case with N Ireland? I suppose they were 'in' this as their powers were probably un-devolved at the time?

sian

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:40 AM

90% certain that it only applied to England and Wales.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:35 AM

Don't thank me, thank Hamish.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:50 AM

The point I was making is that Westminster - elected reps and, perhaps more importantly - have a habit of forgetting that some powers have been devolved.

Both my mother and my wife were/are Scottish so I have at least a sympathy vote up there! There is a lovely apposite story of when the Scots raised teacher's salaries (or made universities free I forget which it was) and a functionary came up from London to remonstrate with the Scottish Dept. of Education.

"Which bit of devolution do you not understand?" came the reply.

I'll be interested to see exactly what reply I get from my M.P.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:08 PM

I had a look at the House of Commons link and had to blink when I saw that the chairman was Roger Gall.

Realised on a second look that it was Roger Gale. Thought the former member had snuck into high office!

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:08 PM

Be careful of Roger Gale. He is not who he was when he was a Radio Caroline DJ....

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: matt milton
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:48 AM

I'm sure there's probably a thread somewhere, but seems like a good place to double-check: am I right in thinking that currently there's an exemption (whether amplified or not) for places of worship, even when the music is not part of religious activity? So hiring a church or church hall for a gig does not require a license?

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Fidjit
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:00 AM

Nice one Richard.

I second Betsy remarks

And Betsy are you still popping over to Oslo??

Chas

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

I think it has to be a church, not a church hall. They put it in because otherwise the Three Choirs Festival and similar would not have been permitted. So when you find a church serving real ale let me know!!

If songs are part of a religious service then they are also exempt. That is how we getaway with the carols in Sheffield. The council regard them at Xmas time as part of a religious service and thus exempt even though they take place in a pub.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:47 PM

Sch 1 Part 1 para 9

"The provision of entertainment or entertainment facilities -
(a) for the purposes of, or for purposes indcidental to, a religious meeting or service, or
(b) at a place of public religious worship
is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainmetn for the purposes of this Act"

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Fidjit
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:49 AM

b) at a place of public religious worship

Richard.

That could be ANY pub !!

Chas

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:44 AM

Thanks Richard. So you can hold a gig in a church - no problem!!

The other great loophole is entertainment on the back of a moving vehicle - otherwise they would have had to ban the whole of the Notting Hill Carnival.

So a folk club on the back of a moving lorry is OK.

But I reckon it would be hard for a council to get an "expert witness" who knew anything about folk music to testify whereas a mummers team could get dozens.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:30 AM

The council gave a blanket licence to the Notting Hill CArnival, didn't they? So exemptions don't come into it.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 10:59 AM

No Chas, it has to be what the courts will recognise as a religion. That leaves even Rastafarianism struggling, paganism or druidism very unlikely and alcoholism (or "Jedi Knight") with no chance at all.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:26 PM

Eventually yes, and other councils have done the same - for Sheffield for example the whole of the City Centre bounded by the inner ring road is exempt.

But the exemption for entertainment on moving vehicles was inspired by the NHC.

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:53 PM

Not exempt: licensed. And indeed only the parts controlled by the council. Makes quite a difference!

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Fidjit
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

And the Court of King Arthur doesn't count?
Gadzooks Man!
What has the country become.

I blame Maggie.

Chas

Subject: RE: Licensing Act (UK) possible change?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:08 PM

If only we could blame Maggie.

To make it clear the whole of Sheffield City Centre is licensed by Sheffield City Council for regulated entertainment, singing, dancing etc for the bits that they control as Richard rightly says. PAvements roads pedestrianised areas etc.

I did take great delight in pointing out that were they not to do so the Lord Mayor's Parade would have been illegal.

In fairness they have been decent and mostly sensible.