Seven String Guitar?

Subject: Seven String Guitar?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

The thread on six string banjo reminded me that many years ago (late seventies or early eighties ) I took guitar lessons from a man who was supposed to teach me to read music properly. He was 'renowned' in the region as a great teacher, and the person to go to if one wanted to graduate from having a good ear to pick up tunes, to actually understanding and reading music. Never happened btw. He was content to let me play my 6 string, but he played a 7 string guitar (not sure I should name names,but he lived in the vicinity of the Apple).

Anyone ever seen one of these things? I am curious if they are still being used, and if there are any established players who play them and for what kind of music.
I think this teacher favored jazz and classical music.
thanx

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:27 PM

Spider John Koerner (or maybe it was his sidekick Dave Ray) was renowned for having/playing a 7-string back in the eraly folk-boom days of the mid-60s.

I believe that his guitar, and many other 7-strings, had a doubled-up pair of strings in lieu of the G string. (Like the pairs of strings on 12-string guitars, except in this case only one of the usual strings is replaced by a pair instead of all six). The pair of strings are tuned one full octave apart.

If I am mistaken, or if my answer is incomplete, I'm sure someone will correct me very quickly.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:37 PM

Thanks for writing POPPAGATOR. Yes, I remember Koerner, Ray and Glover (first heard them on a 'sampler' album I was given highlighting sixties performers)I didn't know he played a seven string, they did some rousing blues.

I can't remember for sure, but I seem to recall that all the strings on this teacher's instrument were separate- but perhaps my memory is hazy- likely we'll find out- I am often in need of completion or correction too ;-)

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:41 PM

The seven string guitar that our guy is talking about is a different ball of wax--I think. PG--Bucky Pizzarelli played his amazing jazz on a seven string, with a low B string to fill out the bottom, and there were a couple of others in the NYC area who emulated him. The legendary Bob Benedetto made them, I think, though I am not sure who made BP's original.

I knew someone who had one made--it was a big deal, and supposed to expand his musical horizons and all, but he found it cumbersome to play, what with having to worry about fretting an extra string all the time, and ended up leaving it in the closet most of the time.

My friend was also well regarded as a teacher, but he tended toward Blind Blake and such things. No names.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,silverfish
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:53 PM

I had a 7-string Russian guitar *lowest tuned down to B* in the late sixties. Solid pine table with harder *red wood* back and sides. Beautiful rich tone. Unfortunately the neck was one piece without truss and warped badly.
I saved the body for years, but never got round to making a replacement neck *always regretted that, too*.
As I recollect there were 2 or three standard tunings for the 7-string Russian folk guitar.
Wish I still had it *wistful sigh*. LOL

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:54 PM

Yeah, I am also aware of 7-string guitars with a truly "extra" string four of five half-steps above the high E or below the low E. I think an extra bass string is more common than an extra-high treble string.

The great New Orleans contemporary jazz player Steve Masakowski (sp?) plays a custom-made 7-stringer made by the same luthier who I patronized for a refretting job last year. If you try to Google a reference to Steve and can't do it because I spelled his name wrong, try the name of his primary band, Astral Project. (Steve's extra string is below the low E.)

Back to the idea of a six-stringer with one additional "paired" string in the G-string position, I think there was a Mudcat thread a few months back about a new "signature" Martin model in that configuration, commissioned by Roger (nee Jim) McGuinn. McGuinn, of course, is well-known for his electric 12-string sound as founder/leader of the Byrds; he apparently uses a 7-string acoustic these days to create a sense of that "jangly" sound without doubling up every string.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:57 PM

I think that you'll find that the 7 strings y'all are talking about are still made by special order by some of the archtop jazz guitar builders. I think they tend to add a string on the lower end giving the guitar more bottom. My brother told me about a Russian classical player that favors a nylon string guitar with a 7th string - again on the low side. CF Martin currently makes a Roger McGuinn signiture model 7 string with a doubled string at the G position - just like Spider Johns. Except it's a D sized guitar and I believe Spider Johns was more along the lines of an OM or a 000.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:59 PM

OOPS - It looks like Pappagator and I cross posted. By the way you can see the McGuinn guitar in the new issue of Fretboard Journal with John Scofield on the cover. I just got mine in the mail yesterday.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:27 PM

John Gladwin, of the UK folk band 'Amazing Blondel' uses a 7-string nylon-strung classical-type guitar, with the bottom string tuned to G (I think it's G).

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

Seven-string guitars with the extra low string are pretty popular among heavy-metal types. They often tune the entire guitar down a step as well, so the low string is an A note a full octave lower than the 5th string of a guitar in standard tuning.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: freightdawg
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:25 PM

Along with a couple of the posts above, many classical artists play with a 7 string - the extra string being an added bass string. Many compositions call for a dropped D on the bass, and you either do a lot of tuning in between pieces or you just use the 7th string.

I could be really wrong on this one, but it seems to me that I read or heard where Steve Kaufman, of world class flat picking bluegrass fame, plays a 7 string occasionally, once again for the dropped D tuning on the low bass.

I've seen one classical 7 string model in person - the luthier where I had my guitars made had made one special order for a customer. I commented on how strange it was, and his comment was "not really," so I guess he makes a respectable number (or at least a few).

The only problem I see, (for a guy that has trouble barreing an entire classical fretboard) - what a fretboard width! I think it would be cool to hear one played.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 05:04 PM

7-stringers are on of the classic Russian instruments. Vysotsky and Okudjava, as well as a host of others, accompanied themselves on it. There is also a very good classical player, Anastasia Bardina, who uses it.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:36 PM

Easier to get the drop D by using a hipshot than a 7 stringer.

Lots of electric heavy metallers play electric 7 string (bottom string a 5th (do I mean a 3rd, must get another drink?) below the next) and usually they are playing the equivalent of Spanish tuning to a D not to an E, but some to a C. So the bottom string could be B, A, or G.

Not used to play 7 string chords, but "power triads".

Modern acoustics that are similar-ish are becomong more available.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,iancarterb
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:23 AM

The most inspiring use of the 7 string (the added bass string kind, not a doubled or octave g)that I know of is in the Brazilian Choro bands from the turn of the last century, kept popular through the 1950's by Jacob Bittencourt ("Jacob do Bandolim") and some of his contemporaries. Check Grisman's Acoustic Disc catalog for Jacob's music. The characteristic sound in some bands included- egad- saxaphones, but the first volume of Grisman's production of Jacob's recorded output is defined by the interaction of Jacob's lead mandolin and the seven string guitar. There is some jazz use still- Pizzarelli was mentioned in an earlier post- and anyone interested might want to find some George van Eps. Some of his canon is hard to find, but eminently worth the search. I know at least one serious blues singer putting an Eastman seven string to good use, T J Wheeler of Portsmouth, NH.
Carter Bannerman

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,ziggy
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:44 AM

David Bowie, certainly in the 70's, played an 11-string. This was a normal 12-string but with one of the G-strings removed. Don't know why.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:21 AM

Like Silverfish I too had a Russian 7 string, the neck snapped by the body many years ago, It lay on top on the wardrobe as an ornament until we moved house recently. It is now somewhere in the attic, I'll see if I can locate it and pass on the manufacturers name, although I seem to recall this was ripped out by a idiot on a school trip in the late sixties, early seventies.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Midchuck
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:02 AM

I've got one. A steel-string jumbo acoustic, similar to the big Gibson, Guild or Taylor jumbos. The six regular strings plus a low B. I bought it on eBay more or less on impulse.

It has no maker identification at all; I assume it was made by a private individual, but the workmanship is excellent as far as I can see. Top is solid spruce, back and sides rosewood, laminated, I assume. If it were all solid woods it would have cost more.

First $400 US plus shipping takes it, with a Gator lightweight rigid-foam and nylon case to fit. I have a baritone guitar (same tuning except no high E string, and the G string is F# instead, making it the same as a standard guitar with five more frets), and that's easier for me to adjust to.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:23 AM

Though there have been no regrets, I did seriously consider a seven string custom build once about ten years ago but instead opted for a six string baritone. I'd still like a seven for some of that spacey/jazzy stuff I've been getting into, and more altered tunings. As a five string bass player, I like an extra low string.

So many guitars, so little time.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

I too have a 7 String Russian guitar but unfortunatelly my father who swapped for some forgotten thing when he was at sea had the neck altered when in 1965 I first had some guitar lessons (classical) sadly this neck is warped and it will not stay in tune although the tone is lovely still. It is called a TOMN if that is how it is written in English

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

Lots of interesting entries here. Didn't know there was a Russian 7 strings, but enough comments have me convinced {is it b/c I have some Russian in my heritage that this fascinated me in the first place? only the Shadow knows ;-)}

I am curious- does that 7 string 'baritone' guitar actually sound overall like a 'baritone' - that is, a little deeper or fuller in tone than a 6 string; I often feel I want to hear a little more 'low tones' in some guitars.

Also do you know which Roger McGuinn songs he used the 7 string on.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:16 PM

Spider John Koerner pioneered the seven string with the octave G added to the regular G and put it to good use on the Blues, Rags and Hollers and Lots More B.,R. & H. albums.

George Van Epps pioneered the arch top seven string with the low bass string. He made at least one lovely album with no back-up players, though you'd swear he had a bass playing with him.

I think Lenny Breau is the best known player of the nylon string 7 string with the extra high string. I think Lenny used fine fish line for his high string.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:41 PM

McGuinn's signature model Martin acoustic 7-stringer is a fairly new issue, and would only be heard on recent recordings (if at all), not on any of the more famous Byrds-era stuff, which featured his electric 12-string (a Rickenbacher?) pretty much exclusively.

Spider John's 7-string guitar seems to have been the prototype for McGuinn's. Does anyone know if he invented this configuration, or picked up the idea from some earlier musician? Whether or not he rigged the thing himself? What make and model guitar he might have modified? Anything? Anyone?

I never much noticed or appreciated Steve Masakowski's 7th low string in the context of Astral Project, a four- or five-piece combo at various times in its history*. But a year or so ago, I witnessed a duet set featuring Steve and a piano, and it was very clear that he was able to supply a "bass" part throughout, while at the same time producing sounds more readily recognizable as (lead and/or rhythm) "guitar" parts.

* The lineup originally included David Torkanowsky on piano, along with Steve on guitar, Tony DiGradi on sax, and the incredible rhythm section of bassist James Singleton and drummer Johnny Vidacovich. They've been together for something like 30 years, since they were the best young contemporary jazz players in New Orleans, a kind of all-star aggregation. (Now they're the best middle-aged players.) Dave dropped out of the group just a few years ago ~ amicably, as far as I know. Piano and guitar fill pretty much the same role in that kind of jazz ensemble, and as time went by and everyone kept growing and deleloping, those two instruments seemed to increasingly "crowd each other out."

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: s&r
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:18 PM

This has to be the ultimate

Stu

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:00 AM

Big Joe Williams palyed a 9 string,amongst other variations that he concocted.
I added a seventh string to an old guitar after hearing Spider John.
Then I made into a

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: David C. Carter
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:04 AM

Sorry,pushed the wrong button!
To continue:I added 2 more,to make it a 9 string.
It lasted about 3 months and folded in half one night.
We burned it in the yard,and cracked open a bottle of wine.

Cheers
David

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Grab
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:44 AM

Stu, there was one of those in the local pawn shop round our way. I was tempted, but this place prices its musical instruments way beyond what they're worth (eg. £150 for some beat-up no-name six-string with rusty strings), and I couldn't justify it. Don't know whether they've still got it or whether it's finally sold.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: s&r
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

Graham - I was tempted but resisted a theorbo in a shop in Malvern. That was a weird beast Picture here

Stu

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:39 PM

Good Lord, looks like something designed by a committee. On holiday. While sloshed. ;-)

Thanx for sending, got a kick out of that.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:30 PM

I've seen one seven-string guitar. It was a nylon-string classic, played by Christopher Berg, a student of Aaron Shearer. Chris's guitar was made by José Oribé in San Diego. Chris said that someone had special ordered it from Oribé and then couldn't come up with the money. Chris did have the money so he bought it. I heard him do a concert with it. He played a fair amount of lute transcriptions where the extra bass string came in handy.

I have an Oribé classic. Six string. Very nice instrument.

But then, one can go for something like THIS. Eleven strings. Made by Georg Bolin, Swedish luthier. I'd love to get my hot little hands on one of these!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:30 PM

Didn't know we were expending the topic to include guitars with more than seven strings. Check out Phil DeGruy's guitarp:

http://www.guitarp.com/guitarp.html

For more info on the eccentric and very brilliant Mr. DeGruy, here's a link to his home page:

http://www.guitarp.com/

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:34 PM

I couldn't swear to it, but I seem to remember that Spider John played a National flat top (not a resonator) with a banjo peg in the middle of the peg head. It was more of a OOO shape than a dreadnought.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:16 PM

Just noticed that DeGruy's 17-string guitarp is, indeed, a modified 7-string guitar. It has seven tuning machines and seven strings arrayed across the fretboard in addition to the ten "harp" strings.

Thanks, GUEST,Jim, for taking a stab at that answer. Sounds plausible, and I'm willing to believe that your memory is probably pretty close to correct, if not absolutely right. If Spider John's modification was indeed a "do-it-yourself" job, drilling a hole dead-center in the headstock for a banjo peg would have been a reasonable approach.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: oggie
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 07:38 AM

Available in the UK from here Solaris 7 String Guitar

I've had one of their Domras which was good quality but haven't tried these.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 11:21 AM

Seven-string Les of the Bluesmothers (also known as Les Miserables!) plays regularly in Kent (England). As well as doing plenty of gigs they run very good jam sessions. Well worth going to see.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: bankley
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 01:52 PM

Lenny Breau played a seven string. had it custom made in Nashville.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:25 PM

When I accompanied a mandolin and balalaika player at a local hotel, I borrowed his Seven-string (Strunayoon) and tuned it where the seventh string was the note of low B. This enabled me to stretch my thumb around the neck and cover the seventh string at the first fret which gave me a full open C chord with the low bass note C. I found that this position was movable. I found I could use my thumb to cover the third fret at third position and play a movable D7 chord with a low bass as well. The instrument was strung with nylon strings and I used plastic fingerpicks to employ a brush stroke with the index and occasionally with the second and third right hand fingers for accompaniment. The Russian instrument, (made there) had a brightness and at the same time enough resonance to be loud enough to be heard acoustically when we strolled throughout the tables. This instrument was useful because it didn't require a bass. The low strings did the job.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:01 AM

I photographed this guitar in a music store window in Seattle a number of years ago.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 09:06 AM

That one seems to be a relative of this one I photographed several years ago... from the collection of the late Jonathan Eberhart.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:13 AM

Those two intruments photographed by Bill D are probably variants of the kind of "harp-guitar" on which Phil DeGruy modeled his custom-made electric-guitar design.

(Phil doesn't claim absolute originality; he says he was trying to perfect, or at least improve upon, an existing idea.)

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:46 PM

Here's a link to a photo of Spider John playing his seven string. It doesn't look like a National, but it does look like a home made custom job of a cheap guitar.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r176/james14076/koerner.jpg

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:32 PM

I've seen 1960s pictures of Spider John Koerner with a National and also with one of those Gretsch flat tops with a plectrum-shaped soundhole. I've also seen photos of Rambling Jack Elliott with one of those. Does anybody know what that model Gretsch was? Some of SJK's 1960s records do sound like a National, but others don't. These days he seems to have a 12-string. There's a photo of Koerner Ray & Glover with Big Joe Williams, so maybe that's where he got the idea of adding octave strings from?

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: GUEST,Murphy
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

www.sashaonline.net   This guy from Ukraine performs in Atlanta on 7 string.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:32 AM

Yeah, lotta them 7-Bangers out there but very few like my ***5 Banger***... Yup, that's right... 5 srings, running beautifully over a slab of mahoganey, a 14 fret neck and home wound electric pickups... And she growls like nothin' else...

***All you need is 5 strings and the truth...***

Bobert

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Sugwash
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:33 AM

There's a Stefan Sobell 7 string for sale on Dream Guitars http://www.dreamguitars.com/preowned/acoustic/Sobell_Model2_7string_0601.htm, deep sigh, it's well out of the compass of my purse.

Subject: RE: Seven String Guitar?
From: Sugwash
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 08:35 AM

Damn, messed up the link again: Dream Guitars