Rethinking my 1962 D-28

Subject: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Cool Beans
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:06 PM

I love my guitar but I may need one with a flatter neck, for fingerpicking. The pad below my left index finger is starting to hurt. Yeah, I've probably been holding it wrong for 45 years, thanks for the suggestion.
But I am looking for recommedations. I want a guitar for fingerpicking with less neck to wrap my hand around. Your thoughts?
Thank you in advance.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: GLoux
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:21 PM

You could take recommendations from people about what make and model to try, but in the end you'll need to go shopping and find the right guitar.

My personal favorite is a 000 slot head with 12 frets clear with a 1-11/16" nut (same as standard dreadnought) with a low profile neck.

Since you've already got a guitar that "is to die for"...think about taking it to a reputable luthier who could take some wood out of the neck to your satisfaction.

Good luck,
-Greg

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: mrmoe
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:48 PM

A 1962 Brazilian Rosewood D-28 is an extremely valuable instrument.....probably worth either a neck replacement or reshaping.....if you're talking about it being too thick, there are people who can make it thinner....

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: mike gouthro
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM

I agree that your D28 is valuable because it's Brazilian - and over time it will increase in its vintage appeal just because of its era. If you are contemplating a neck modification, you might consider checking with vintage experts to see if such a significant modification could harm its potential value.

I have played the same Martin V style neck for decades then recently switched to a flatter neck 000 sized guitar. Surprisingly, the new neck profile was much harder on the pad below my left index finger. The neck was flatter overall but the contact point with the pad was rounder than the old V neck. I actually had to sand down the new neck in that area to flatten it before the pain eased up. It's still not quite as pain free as the V neck.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: GLoux
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:39 PM

There certainly are others, but the best vintage expert I know is Fred Oster in Philadelphia at Vintage Instruments. The web site has an e-mail address for Fred. Tell him Greg Loux referred you to him.

You could also go through Mandolin Brothers. I have a friend who swears by their vintage folks.

Good luck...
-Greg

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:45 PM

Two words:

Bryan Kimsey

Get in touch with him as to what might be done.

For heaven's sake, don't sell it hastily. You have a good piece of money there, if you decide for sure you don't want it. But a lot of people will be glad to help you get rid of it for cheap.

Peter

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:10 PM

If you have dedicated fingerpicking in mind, have a look at the OMs. I find them a bit "B-ish" for my usual thumping but when I try my limited fingerpicking my OM1 is probably the best of my range of guitars.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Cool Beans
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

Thanks, all. Nooo, I don't want to sell my D-28. And I'm reluctant to do any surgery but I will seek expert advice. I was htinking aobut buying another guitar. I live in Michigan; Elderly Instruments is 90 minutes away.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: oggie
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

Guitars are so subjective especially if you have a hand issue (I have). It's a case of trying a lot of guitars. Suggest you take a small recorder and so that you can hear what you sound like. I found a lovely guitar to play and my wife said "No, it doesn't sound right from here" I couldn't tell from the player's position but when I recorded it I could see whay she meant.

Enjoy your search

Steve

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:26 PM

I remain skeptical about the whole premise that some guitars are better suited for fingerpicking than others. (For the record, I am a confirmed fingerpicker since the mid-1960s, and I own and play a slightly less antique and originally lower-priced Martin dread, a 1969 D-18.)

And I really can't see what the guitar neck and the left hand have to do with fingerpicking, which is normally conducted in the area of the guitar's body, not the neck, and with the right hand, not the left.

If you've really become so disenchanted with your beautiful vantage Martin, I'd prefer to see you sell it to a player who will appreciate it (not to a collector), take the sizable sum of money you should receive for it, and buy whatever instrument you'd prefer. I think that such a solution would probably be better for you ~ and for the guitar ~ than shaving the neck down.

Radically modifying the neck would undoubtedly hurt resale value. Of course, if doing so truly improved the instrument for your personal preferences and "fit," monetary value would be a moot point, anyway ~ you would no longer have any reason to sell it, and would presumably enjoy it for the rest of your life. (Your heirs might have a problem, but you won't be around to listen to their complaints...)

(My left index finger hurts, too, especially above the first knuckle, and my left pinkie is in even worse shape. Just part of the aging process, I suppose (arthritis, to be specific). Maybe I'm dull and unimaginative, but I can't see that playing a guitar with a narrower neck would make very much difference. Not playing at all might help, but for me that's not an option ~ at least, not yet.)

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: mattkeen
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:35 AM

(My left index finger hurts, too, especially above the first knuckle, and my left pinkie is in even worse shape. Just part of the aging process, I suppose (arthritis, to be specific). Maybe I'm dull and unimaginative, but I can't see that playing a guitar with a narrower neck would make very much difference. Not playing at all might help, but for me that's not an option ~ at least, not yet.)


I agree with PoopaGator.

I play very thin neck Brook Guitars (OM and 000 types) and my fingers hurt in exactly the same places as described.
I play softer and that seems to help - the thin neck means that I don't get pain at the base of my thumb on the left hand though.

I believe the problem is fundamentally what my mate (also born in the 50's) calls "rust".

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: PoppaGator
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:30 AM

Using a capo draws down the action a bit, thus requiring less pressure from your left-hand fingers. Also, the higher up the neck you place the capo, the shorter your left-finger stretches become.

About 10 years or so ago, I had quit playing almost completely, due to arthritis pain in the left hand. Once I discovered liquid glucosamine, my hands began feeling much better and I started playing again. That's when I found I could extend my practice time by capoing.

I've just turned 60, and the arthritis pain is starting to come back even though I continue to take the glucosamine. I find that it takes longer for me to warm up, but I can get to a point where my hands work OK and the pain seems diminished. (Maybe the pain is still there, but I find it bearable because playing is so enjoyable.)

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

Yamaha cpx15cm - if you can get one, they've stopped making them. Nearest thing to strat neck.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: GUEST,Scorpio
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:08 AM

I can only agree with GLoux. My dreadnought's neck became too thick for my increasingly stiff fingers, especially with grab chords, so I bought a 000. The little darling has made me a better fingerpicker.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 02:10 PM

I still wish someone would explain to me what the neck and other left-hand considerations have to do with fingerpicking.

I realize that complex playing, with single-string melody notes mixed in with your basic-rhythm strumming or bass-thumping or whatever, places greater demands on left-hand technique than does beginner-level chord-strumming. But this holds true regardless of whether said high-level playing is being done with a flatpick, a set of fingerpicks, or a handful of bare fingers. Good flatpickers can produce some very dazzling playing, just as advanced as anything possible for even the most skilled fingerpicker.

Indeed, there are some advanced flatpicking techniques that simply cannot be duplicated with fingerpicks (e.g., high-speed bluegrass and related C&W Nashville-cat styles). And the reverse is true, too ~ there are some other things that can be done only by fingerpicking.

Either way, I can easily understand that advanced, sophisticated playing that uses any right-hand picking techniques makes great demands on the left hand, and increases the need to a physically player-friendly neck and fretboard. But, again, I cannot for the life of me understand how a more comfortable neck has anything to do with a player's ability to fingerpick.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: freightdawg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:57 PM

I just realized...I was made in 1962. Does that make me vintage? Am I worth more now than, say, 10 or 15 years ago?

I could really get some mileage out of this with the Mrs. Freightdawg.

On the serious side of things, I agree with Poppagator mostly with one exception - aren't classical guitars made with a slighty wider neck to facilitate the chord shapes and individual notation that is customary with classical music? Now granted, unusual chord shapes are found in every genre of guitar music. However, in blues and jazz many shapes are built off of barre chords. Barreing a classical width fretboard with the normal curvature of the neck would be brutal - hence the flatter fretboard to compensate.

I may be all wet - and please, I'm not picking an argument. I just thought these features might be an answer to the question. I've just noticed that guitars that are designed primarily for rythm have much narrower necks, guitars that emphasize classical or fingerpicking styles have wider necks.

the "vintage" Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM

Oh no, barres are much easier on highly curved necks - 7" radius vintage Fenders and some Czech/Hungarian Futurama copies for instance. The 11" readius is more popular today because it enables string bending without choking.

An F7 barre on a flat fingerboard with steel strings is a real killer - the little dinks at your knuckles just don't get the pressure on enough.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 05:18 PM

Actually, that response makes a degree of sense to me, and I suspect that it's as good an explanaiton as anyone is likely to provide.

On the other hand, finding enough "space" to fingerpick on a standard acoustic steel-string guitar is not really all tht difficult. Gazillions of us have been doing it with gret regularity for the last century or so, if not longer.

Y'all will just have to pardon me if I continue to regard all discussions along the lines of "this is a fingerpicking guitar, this one isn't" to be of very dubious value...

Submitted in the spirit of fellowship from another "vintage" player...

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: freightdawg
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:57 PM

Allow me another swing at the ball...

I've seen bluegrass pickers play blazing fast with the standard, or "narrow" neck. Therefore, the argument that a wider neck facilitates faster left hand playing doesn't hold any water (as Mr. Poppagator has already pointed out).

And any barre chord is a killer for me. My Bm chord sounds like a cat being give its first flea bath. So I haven't found any fretboard that is particularly beneficial for me. Paws just were not meant to play the guitar, I guess.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:48 PM

Here is what I did- I sold my 1986 HD 28 and bought a Martin cutaway SP000C16R. It's smaller and a tad softer in sound but it's gentler on elbows, shoulders and hands and feels much easier to play. I have had it for 5 years, play it out of DADGAD and wonder why I didn't do it all earlier.

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: van lingle
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 08:00 AM

Cool Beans you may not want to hear it but hand position can make a big difference. I've acquired a foot stool and sometimes use it to elevate the neck of the guitar and sometimes just cross my left leg over my right.

Poppa, I can just tell you that fingerpicking my OM with it's 1 3/4"- 2 5/16" is much more comfortable for my left hand than fingerpicking my Dreadnought with a 1 11/16"-2 1/8" string spacing even though the necks have similar V profiles and the action is similar on both. I do have fairly large hands and that measly 1/16 makes a big difference to me. Whoda' thunk it?
And BTW if you want to hear some high speed fingerstyle bluegrass check out Wayne Henderson and Friends on Youtube and for Nashville style try Scottie Anderson who is well represented on YT.vl

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 10:09 AM

van lingle,

Thanks for those YouTube references. I am curious to see anyone play those high-speed country genres fingerstyle rather than using the much more customary flatpicking method. Those ultraquick up-and-down strokes just seem impossible with a thumbpick, and the fingerpicker's alternative, to alternate thumb/finger as quickly as possible, just seems to have a built-in speed limit.

The "hybrid" style favored by a few country virtuosos, using a flatpick plus middle and ring fingers, solves all problems and opens up all possibilities ~ IF you can do it!

****************

I don't doubt that you find lefthand fingering easier on your OM than on your dread; but wouldn't your lefthand comfort levels on the two instruments be pretty much the same regardless of your righthand picking style?

Now, I can see how body size (and shape, too) might have an effect on fingerpicking vs flatpicking/strumming, especially for a relatively small person. Wrapping your right arm around that big dreadnaught box can certainly affect the angle at which your right-hand fingers approach the strings, how far you have to reach, how comfortable you are, etc. I don't doubt that you find it easier to pick the OM than the dread, but my guess/analysis is that it's the smaller and shaplier body that is making the diffrence, not the neck width...

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: van lingle
Date: 09 Dec 07 - 11:50 AM

PoppaGator, I guess what it gets down to is that I play different types of chords on the two instruments: More thumb over chords and barres on the OM while fingerpicking and more open string chords while playing Irish and old time backup and single string flatpicking on the Dread and each of them seems to feel better for their particular jobs. As for body size I have a 00-sized acoustic with a 1 13/16" nut which is difficult for me to play right now as I recently had surgery on my left hand and can't make the stretches yet or get the thumb over as easily as I used to, of course, it has two other X factors with a shorter scale and a deeper V neck.
I guess in the end it's just what feels right to the player and back to the orignal subject I find the standard 14 fret neck on Froggy Bottoms with a medium low profile to be about perfect for everything I do. Regards, vl

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: Cool Beans
Date: 10 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

Thank you, PoppaGator and van lingle. You've said the secret words: thumb-over chords and Wayne Henderson.
A couple of years ago I learned a fingerpicking tune from Wayne ("Victory Rag") that entails thumb-over chords (at least the way I've been playing it). I play it a lot and I've been playing other thumb-over tunes lately, too. That's the problem and that's why it hadn't shown up in the previous 40 years. Ha! Of course, I still have it...

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: van lingle
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 06:32 PM

Yeah, Cool Beans, There's a G7 chord at the end of the first A section that uses (the way I do it anyway) the L.H. thumb for the G bass note while fingering the 4th string F, 3rd fret and playing the melody with the pinky on the high strings. Victory Rag is the only tune I use that fingering on.vl

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 02:50 PM

Someone earlier in this thread (or maybe it wasn't here, but in another discussion) used the phrase "grab chords," and I figured they must have meant what we've begun to call "thumb-over" chords here. That stretched-out G7 sounds interesting.

I use "thumb-over" technique almost exclusively for major chords in the "F" shape, but the barre technique for the very-similar minors of the Bb-minor "family." I can't explain why I have found things easiest this way, and there are probably a few exceptions due to the technical demands of certain pieces.

A narrow neck, obviously, makes thumb-over technique a little easier than a wide one.

Good luck, van lingle, recovering from hand surgery ~ sounds scary!

Subject: RE: Rethinking my 1962 D-28
From: van lingle
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 08:01 PM

Thanks PoppaGator. I had an excisive arthoplasty to relieve an arthritic condition and things are much improved. I'm now able to play for long periods without pain and strength and flexibility seem to increase daily.vl