Do (middle C) on the instrument you play

Subject: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Margo
Date: 04 May 99 - 10:15 AM

I had a surprise last night at song circle when I discovered an inconsistency between my concertina and the guitars. The button on my concertina that the concertina book says is "F" is really "C" on the guitar. That mixes me up.

Do other instruments do this sort of thing? Why not call a C a C? My concertina is a treble. Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks,

Margarita

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 May 99 - 11:03 AM

Maybe that should be D'oh!?

Steve

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: bill\sables
Date: 04 May 99 - 11:24 AM

Margarita, I'm not sure but I think that concertinas were tuned diferently in early manufacture I seem to remember that a few years ago you could buy a concertina in old tuning cheeper than one which had been converted, Perhaps someone more expert than me on concertinas could enlighten you more. Cheers Bill

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: SeanM
Date: 04 May 99 - 11:51 AM

Don't even get me started... True 'C' on a pennywhistle has got to be one of the most annoying notes known to music kind, and other than that, we get to play with Csharp... I know that most 'whistlers will shoot me for saying it, but I honestly try to bend out most 'C's from anything I play. On my 'D' whistle, the 'C' hits a perfect pitch that gives me an almost instantaneous headache, as well as usually abjectly failing to fit in with whatever everyone else is playing.

Grumbling at the Gods for creating bizzare tonal scales...

M

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Margo
Date: 04 May 99 - 01:37 PM

I still don't get it. I think I shall simply re-name the buttons on my box. What a pain. I have to "unlearn" what I have so assiduously tried to memorize. If anyone else has anything to say about tunings and different clefs, I'm eager to hear you! Thanks,

Margarita

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Vixen
Date: 04 May 99 - 01:51 PM

Margarita,

Some questions, which are in no particular order and not necessarily relevant to each other.

Is the 'F' on the button imprinted there? or could it have been added later by someone who *thought* it was 'F'?

Please 'scuse my ignorance here, but can concertinas "detune?" For example, wooden recorders may need to have holes rebored, and harmonicas sometimes "lose" notes after a long time (My dad has a 'C' harmonica with a couple of notes that are *way* off.)

Does the inaccuracy follow the entire scale? In other words, the button marked 'F' sounds 'C'; does the button marked 'G' sound 'D'?

Are you sure the guitarist was tuned accurately?

I hope some of these questions are helpful to you in solving your confusion--I know nothing about concertinas, and I'm a relative newbie to music theory, so I have no helpful suggestions!

Good luck! There must be a concertina-playing M'Cat out there who can help you more!

V

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 04 May 99 - 01:55 PM

When playing flute in gradeschool and high school band I remembered all the instruments tuned to the clarinet...I think first chair clarinet would play "C"--the flutes, however tuned by playing Bb and other instruments played other notes...hmmmmmmm. Never thought about that before!

SingsIrish

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Margo
Date: 04 May 99 - 06:11 PM

Ohhhhhhhh yeah! I remember that! Gee, My sister played the clarinet, maybe I should ask her. Anyway, I bet it has something to do with that. Thanks

Oh, Vixen, thanks for the questions. The concertina has reeds, so it doesn't really go out of tune as a rule. As for the guitar's tuning.......heh heh.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From:
Date: 04 May 99 - 09:34 PM

Wow concertina is hard enough without that kind of surprise.I have a C& G anglo ,a D&A crabb anglo and a treble English and all the notes match everyone else.{They do get sharper as the room warms up but not that much!}If you are playing an english I don't see how the reed pan could get mixed up like that.Good luck .You might send a note to THe Botton Box AMherst mass.for some feedback or maybe Sandy Patton could ask his son who is Brilient with that box.ALso Fred Quann of Ft Myers Fl. Good Luck anyway,Guy Wolff~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Mudjack
Date: 05 May 99 - 01:29 AM

Hi Margarita, Sit down with a guitar picker in concert tuning and sort out those chords/note differences. The reeds could possibly be off that far. Not likely but possible. At least you would know where you are with the concertina. Last night was real chalenging all the way around. I never once got the feeling that the music was clicking. Of course arriving late and leaving early didn't help matters. Mudjack

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 May 99 - 03:36 AM

Ah, the joys of transposed tuning! Music for the clarinet, along with some other instruments, is written a whole tone above the actual sound: you read C, but you play B-flat. It must have semed like a good idea two or three hundred years ago! Actually, the guitar is a transposing instrument as well - the music is written a whole octave above the actual sound, otherwise it would all be on ledger lines. Not that I can play guitar from music! Someone else can explain about changes in concert pitch, 'cos I could never keep up with the story.

Steve

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 05 May 99 - 04:29 AM

G'day Margarita,

It sounds like you have a book that doesn't apply to your particular concertina (and I don't know what system you have). The English has a rigorously exact layout, although the 'Concert Pitch' has vacillated over the decades.

As well, there are deeper and higher English for playing parts in bands and some of these are higher or lower by (say) a fifth (eg C up to G of C down to F) as well as sometimes being "voiced" to sound like other band instruments and round out the band's tonal range. If you have one of these instruments, the instruction book for a standard model need to be modified.

If you play Anglo-German (20 - ~ 26 keys) rather than the 30+ Anglo-chromatic, you may well find the two rows are not the keys of G and C that are assumed in most books. My first Anglo was in Bb and F - one whole tone lower than 'standard' - probably played with woodwind and brass instruments in the 19th century.

As well as a more common G/C 22 key Anglo (-slightly chromatic) I have a D/G 20 key (fully 5 semitones lower than usual), although this was rebuilt by me for use in session playing. A number of cheap (old East German) boxes (such as the notorious old 'Scholers') were somewhere near D/A, a tone higher than 'standard'.

All good concertinas should be tuned to something like concert pitch (unfortunately, a lot of old ones are tuned to a very different concert pitch than today's, but the variation is rarely more than a semitone. A difference fron C to F is either a misreading of the book or a differently pitched instrument.

This happens with other types of boxes. Here in Australia (and elsewhere, I suspect) the old button accordions were commonly in C/F and they played exactly as they would nowadays in D/G because many oldtimers would tune their fiddles lower (by a tone, commonly) to reduce strain in the hot dry climate ... and to produce a sonorous tone with the old gut strings.

I have a ~60 - 70 year old Hohner, like a moderm #2915, but in lovely blond wood, and it was originally in C/F (and has a few note names scratched into the handplate with a penknife blade - wrongly!). I have since converted it to G/C for playing Australian dance music with musicians of the Bush Music Club and my group 'Backblocks'. I just can't persuade fiddlers to 'slack-tune' these days!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From:
Date: 05 May 99 - 05:19 AM

The answer to your question, Margarita, is yes. I have a harmonica that plays "G" when I read "C". I also put a capo on my guitar so that when I play an "E", "A". "B7" chord progression it actually sounds an "F" "B" C7".

You can see why people might want to do that. You only have to learn chord progressions in one key. If I can make the key of "E" chord progressions smoothly, but can't make the progression in the key of "F" (which happens to be the case.) I can still put on the capo and play with a group in "F" while "pretending" I am playing in "E".

You (one) might want to just learn how to play an "F" concertina and change instruments when they play in other keys. That sounds like what the labels are for in your instrument.

As was mentioned before, you can always add the true notes to the labels (or replace them). Just count up seven semi-tones from the written note. I would check them with a piano or guitar first to make sure the present labeling is consistent.

Murray

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Margo
Date: 05 May 99 - 10:36 AM

Thanks, you guys! I have a treble English. The book explained that the two middle rows of buttons are like the white keys on the piano. This is exactly right. If I play the major scale on those rows, I need no accidentals.

But the book says the scale is F Major when the notes sounded are actually C major. Much like the clarinette playing a written C but actually sounding B flat.

I don't mind the difference, I can handle that. I was taken by surprise, and I still don't understand why they don't call a C a C and an F an F.

Yes, Murray. I play guitar and understand why you capo. When all are playing in C I shall be playing in F which suits me fine, since F is the scale that needs no accidentals on this instrument.

I'm going to try not to think about it anymore.

Thanks again,

Margarita

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 06 May 99 - 03:15 AM

G'day again Margarita,

I see that what you have is basically what I described in my second paragraph - a higher instrument, ranged for the higher parts in band music (great numbers of English system instruments played in Concertina Bands all over Britain, until two World Wars killed off the young men that would have carried them on).

The instruction books are usually for the standard pitch that new players generally have (although they may - somewhere deep in the text - mention the alternately ranged instruments). There is no plot to confuse young players - it is assumed (from the old band days) that anyone playing a specialised instrument, understands the transposing required - or has a special transposing part provided by the bandmaster.

Of course folkies have no knowledge of the old bands, so this does literally become "a trap for young players" . However, it is just the same as elsewhere in 'classical' music: there are 'families' of of instruments - Sopranos, Trebles, Tenors and Basses, all pitched apart by something less than an octave. Yours appears to be a fourth higher. At least they come back in line at the octave ... usually!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From:
Date: 06 May 99 - 10:27 AM

Yay! everything is fine! If your instroment is a treble English the scale going up the middle like a ladder is C not F so your instroment is ok, .It sounds like you just need a new book!Just as long as when your doing a scale you get a scale your ahead of the game.After learning a few things in C without any of the outside keys try one with just one outside note say in the key of g and or F and then go on to a tune with two on the outside in the key of D {fiddle players love D and A and like G and some older interest is in F}I am a tarable {sp} concertina player but have loved Trying for years. Good luck..... Guy Wolff....... PS Try just following along with a friendly fiddle if you get the chance. One tune over and over again for an hour or two will get you really into a Key.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Alex
Date: 06 May 99 - 07:22 PM

Concertinas do wander off the note or some of the modern ones never were on concert in the first place. I had mine (a Bastari but I wish it were a Wheatstone) tuned (they put a tiny bit of solder on the end of the reed to flatten it and file a bit off to sharpen it) by an old Italian guy at Star Concertina in Chicago.

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Margo
Date: 06 May 99 - 07:34 PM

Actually, the one I have is a Wheatstone. I got it from Herrington in Texas. Since he is a builder of concertinas (albeit anglos) I believe it is fine as far as tuning; It is in tune with itself. It's about 50 years old but it sounds good to me. I just didn't realize the tuning difference between instruments.

I was very lucky to get my Wheatstone because I had just begun to look. Herrington happened to have taken one in on a trade.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Sharon
Date: 06 May 99 - 11:28 PM

Is it the instructional book you are using that tells you that note is a C? I have a D/A concertina. But they just don't make an instructional book for anything but the C/G concertina. So I was told to just use it - The pattern of the buttons works fine = I'm just not really playing in C as the book says I am!

Subject: RE: Do (middle C) on the instrument you play
From: Margo
Date: 07 May 99 - 11:18 AM

Yes, Sharon. The book indicates a button as "F" but in actuallity it is a "C".