Fiddle: How important is the Bow?

Subject: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:03 PM

I have acquired an old fiddle, in need of restoration. Also the bow is "bowed" ie. shaped like it's ready to fire an arrow. I assume I need to replace this but saw someone playing fiddle recently with one in a similar condition. The sound he made was not pleasant to my ears and I thought it might in part be due to the state of his bow, but what do I know - next to nowt when it comes to this instrument.

How important is the quality/shape of the bow - how much should I expect to spend on a decent one?

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:32 PM

It's going to be hard to get the right, consistent pressure, which does affect sound. A good bow affects sound more than most people realize That was true of me, until I got a good bow and felt/heard the difference.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:40 PM

You probably should get an "expert" opinion from someone who can actually look at your bow. If by "bowed" you mean that it's been warped so that the center of the bow is further from the strings than the ends are, it's likely that it's just been left tight in the case and has warped.

If it's a decent to pretty good bow, a qualified bow worker might be able to re-bend it back to what it should be, but if it's actually a mediocre one it probably wouldn't be worth attempting to repair. Re-bending usually requires fixturing and heat and time - the first two of which run-of-the-mill "fixit shops" are not likely to have except as "jury-rigged setups," and the last of which costs money.

As to how "important" the bow is, advanced players quote the mantra that "the bow should cost twice as much as the fiddle." (Few actually live up to the rule.) For beginners or perpetual amateurs, probably the bow at half the price of the fiddle is a good place to shoot for, assuming that the fiddle is at least playable.

Every player has at least two opinions on all this, and I'm not actually a player; but I've listened to lots of opinions.

John

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:23 PM

"Decent" or "adequate"...? If you're just getting going, you can pick up an OK one for £25. My ex-singing teacher (who originally went to the RCM as a violinist) spent £1K on a carbon-fibre one about 18 months back. I'm on the £25 end myself. ;-)

Playing with a crap bow is like playing a guitar with bad action. You can probably make it work, but even as a beginner, the bow will be limiting what you can do. It doesn't need to be special, but it needs to *work*. Head down to your nearest classical music shop and find a proper bow.

Note that baroque bows *did* curve like an archer's bow in the middle. It's vaguely possible that you've picked up something that was previously used by an early-music enthusiast, so don't just chuck the old bow away until someone else has made sure you're not binning something valuable!

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:34 PM

Standard advice is to lay out between one third and a half the price of the violin on a bow. I don't know who suggested to John that he should go for twice the price of the fiddle, but I wouldn't pay too much heed to that! As it happens, I paid nearly as much for my current bow as for the instrument I play it with; that was pushing it, but about right in the circumstances given the nature of the fiddle. Any more would have been extravagant and self indulgent; and beyond my capabilities to take proper advantage of in any case.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:57 PM

When I had my dad's approx 100 year old violin (it was hand selected by his teacher second hand when dad was a young lad) done up, the guy traded 2 spare bows which my brother had bought, as payment for rehairing & straightening/fixing the old original bow. He said he would offer to buy it for an interesting price that would buy several 'student grade' modern bows, but that he would advise me that I really should keep it!

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:45 PM

The bow is just as important as the violin. They are equal halves of ONE instrument.

You wouldn't expect decent sound from a crap reed in a woodwind, so why expect decent sound from a crap bow?

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Fidjit
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 11:57 AM

Very difficult to blow a fiddle

Chas

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:07 PM

The violin or the fiddle requires finger dexterity in both hands. There is a minimal movement in the bowing hand to accomodate the bow so having a bow that is capable of flexibility of slight finger motion seems to make sense to me.

The "cambre" of the bow is about balance.
One way to discover the "cambre" is to place
a finger on the stick and attempt to find the area where the bow can be balanced. A good "cambre" is desirable and I think this may be
three quarters near the frog but I could be corrected on this.

The right weight of the bow is a consideration.
Some prefer a heavier weight for more power and others a lighter weight for more flexibility in playing fast light passages.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:27 PM

As Grab already said, you may have a baroque-style bow. Have a pro look at it first to make sure.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

"Camber" is the curve of the bow.

The relationship between fulcrum and weight has everything to do with the player's habits and what feels right to them. My best bow balances about 1/3 of the length from the frog to the tip. So does my composite bow, and so does the assault bow that Rick gave me when he returned my loaner fiddle, although this bow balances a little bit closer to the tip. I'm not fond of heavy bows, and this one drives me crazy.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:58 PM

Want to sell it Jeri? I prefer heavy bows. Can't have too many!

And thank you for correcting camber. I'll bet money the above is a Baroque bow. Can't imagine a modern style bow warping that much.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 02:12 PM

Malcolm - the "twice the price of the fiddle" is, I thought, quite obviously something that the "bow snob" would quote to impress a student - or anyone with a lesser bow than his/hers - with the necessity of having a "better bow" than is common. As I noted, it's seldom actually observed.

The earlier "Baroque bows" had very stiff "bowed sticks" with no screw/nut to tighten the string. The string was wrapped around the fingers of the hand holding the bow to provide tension for the hair. While there were a few "transition period" bows with the classic "high arch" that had various mechanisms for tightening the hair, those would be - I would think - quite rare.

It's also unlikely that a Baroque bow would be found accompanying anything but a Baroque violin. It's very difficult to play a modern violin with a Baroque bow, since the modern neck angle is much smaller than for a Baroque violin. It's also quite difficult to play a Baroque violin with a modern bow. All of the old "classic" violins, most specifically the Amati family and Stradivari violins have had the neck reset to "modern angle" in order to be playable with modern bows. (There is rumored to be one Strad with original neck angle, but it's in a museum somewhere and is otherwise unplayable.)

It's not too uncommon to see bows in pawn shops and/or antique malls where someone has left the strings under tension and the "stick" has taken a permanent ugly set. Re-bending one of these is not a particularly difficult task, but it requires some setup that relatively few publicly accessible fix-it shops are likely to have, and is seldom worthwhile unless the bow has the potential to be a little better than average. Only someone with experience in re-bending a few has much chance of evaluating a "badly bent bow" to know whether working on it is worth the effort. More common shops may be able (willing) to "tweak" a tip on one that's in the more common condition of "only a little off."

Most mass sellers have cheap bows that probably shouldn't be used by anyone. If you're just wanting something to see if you like the instrument enough to try to learn to play, it doesn't take too much of a jump up into better quality to get a usable bow, but the prices may go up a little faster than the quality does. Advice from someone you know who plays is the most practical approach (and particularly from one who has a few students perhaps). If possible, you should get a knowledgeable friend to look at what you've got and to look at what you propose to add to your kit.

If you don't know someone who can advise you, take the fiddle and bow to a session, and ask a fiddler to play it for you during a break. (Be sure to emphasize that you can stand criticism, and be prepared to run very fast or to stand and defend yourself.)

John

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 05:22 PM

Sorcha, thanks, but I'll hang onto it for now. I don't have many bows and who knows? I may take up old-timey or Cajun fiddling. The bow would work fine for rhythm-driven styles with lots of double-stops.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 05:55 PM

John: Any experienced player would know that, yes; but this thread was initiated by someone who is new to the whole thing, so it does no harm to stress the point that the suggestion you repeated was nonsense, and certainly made by someone who was merely showing off. Nobody has ever suggested any such thing to me, fortunately for them...

To continue to labour another point, I'd be very surprised indeed if the bow in question is a real 'baroque style' thing. Far more likely that it's just a modern bow, warped by abuse. I've seen plenty. I do know a couple of people who habitually use reproduction baroque bows on fiddles with a modern setup (one of them makes the things herself, but usually plays a real baroque fiddle nowadays) and have tried one to see how it felt. Personally, I'd go for the modern style for the modern setup; the designs were changed for good reasons, though it's always interesting to find out about other approaches.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 06:06 PM

I used to lust after a baroque viol...don't anymore. Still 'want' a 5 string but don't know that I'd get much good out of it.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: John O'L
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 07:08 PM

I've been told that the violin is merely the object on which the instrument is played.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Grab
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 07:39 PM

John, the early-music players I've seen have all had bows with screw-adjusted tension - modern versions in the spirit of the originals.

Sure, it's unlikely to be anything interesting - more likely to be a knackered modern one. But a modern baroque bow is still worth selling on eBay for a few quid, so better to make sure before you use it for poking the fire with, right? :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: GUEST,Sarah, Barnsley
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 07:57 PM

IMHO if you're a beginner, you're better off buying a cheap bow for starters, although the ones that come in the fiddle +case + bow package deals for £60 are pushing it a bit. A cheap bow is fine for a beginner, but limiting for the experienced player (although my 1st bow, which came with the violin, got me to grade 6!). Spending money on a bow has saved me from changing my instrument - I still play the (fairly) cheap fiddle I learned on and have managed to avoid upgrading by putting on a decent set of strings and buying a more expensive bow (about £125). I am lucky enough to live near two very good violin shops who will leave you alone to experiment and pick one that is suitable for your playing style - it really is a personal thing - it's like choosing a fountain pen or a set of darts.

Sarah x

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:37 AM

Thanks everyone for your comments. The fiddle is obviously very old - in black wooden case lined with tattered blue velvet and sporting ancient looking metal handle and clasps. The fiddle is a very tight fit in shaped interior. My guess is it's probably around 100 years old - the only mark I can see inside is "MEDIO-FINO".

The 'bowed bow' has a mother of pearl inlay "frog" and looks at first sight to be almost the right shape - until you increase the tension and then it goes straight. As suggested I think it must be warped.

Subject: RE: Fiddle: How important is the Bow?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:06 PM

If the bow has some "backcurve" without tension it's quite likely, if it's otherwise of fair quality, that even a local repair shop with reasonable experience might be able to "reset" the curve to a more normal condition, if it is in fact a bit "bent."

If, as I think you implied, you're not an experienced fiddler, it may be difficult for you to judge what's the "right" tension. Modern bows are intended to "straighten under tension" up to a pount, but what is perhaps the "defining feature" is that once an appropriate initial tension is applied the tip can rotate some by bending at the more flexible tip of the bow to maintain quite uniform hair tension as you vary the pressure against the strings and the deflection under pressure of the bow hairs.

Some fiddlers, especially "folkish" ones perhaps, like a rather high bow tension to make it easier to "bounce the bow" around on the strings. Those who use a more classical(?) technique will generally, I think, use somewhat less tense hairs, although there's considerable variation in "personal preference" among players, and even a fairly skilled player may want some change in tension when playing a particular style of music.

Advice from an experienced player or luthier/bow maker who can actually examine your instrument - bow and fiddle - would still be recommended before you become too firmly attached to your own conclusions as to what you have.

John