How to kill the record industry...

Subject: How to kill the record industry...
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:30 PM

This isn't really "new" news but it looks to me like the big-time recorded music bosses are cutting off their noses to spite their faces with the attitude they're taking on interpretation of what constitutes illegal copying of recorded music media.

You can read about it here: Download Uproar: Record Industry

When all is said and done, the lawyers are the only ones that'll come out ahead and happy with this.

SC

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:41 PM

I believe the industry is wrong on this new twist. What one does for ones personal use should be construed as fair use. But the hitch comes when one hooks up to a file sharing server. That, in my mind, is where the intent to defraud the artist, and label, occurs.

One thing I have learned in organizing unions and bargaining contracts, is that it is a mistake to try and stop technology. One must simply control how it is used. Theft is theft. If you are using technology to take my propertywithout my specific permission (intellectual, financial, personal data, or physical), then you are stealing and should be held accountable. The mistake was made early on when the industry should have went after folks before we had a whole generation that feels there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.

No mitigation of guilt can be allowed. If you are using the computer to get something for nothing that you normally have to pay for, that is wrong.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

One more thing. It is easy to throw around terms like "big-time recorded music bosses", but that is known as shifting the premise. This isn't a fight to protect the right of the masses to rip off the big boys. Stealing is stealing whether it is from Warner Bros. or Folk Legacy or Camsco. To allow your logic to stand would be to say that it is OK to steal from Target as long as you don't steal from the Mom and Pop store down the street.

I understand your need to demonize the industry, but to do so gets one arguing on whether they have right to charge what they do, instead of on whether it is OK to steal the intellectual property of others.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: fumblefingers
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:01 PM

Read the article before getting on your high horse. The record companies are now saying it is illegal to copy your CD, that you bought, to your computer for any purpose. This is and has always been considered 'fair use',not stealing.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:02 PM

I think the article is very misleading and draws upon sensationalism.

The articles gives the impression that the RIAA is going after everyone who makes an MP3 of a CD that they own. IF that was the case, Microsoft and Apple would be the first companies sued due to the fact that they provide softward that enables and in fact encourages the "ripping" of music from a CD.

As Mick pointed out, they are really going after the people who are sharing those file with others. The case in question was the result of one lawyer looking for a loophole. The RIAA does say that making copies even for personal use might be "questionable" under the letter of the law, but it is not something they are going to persue as a practice.

Anyone who has spent time here on Mudcat will surely remember instances where people have offered to record CD's for others or make MP3 files available.   I'm also approached with private messages asking for copies of songs.   Just because something is out of print does not give everyone the legal right to "share" that property - it is not your call.

Of course, there is an arguement that can be made that such copying can actually help. I'm sure most of us have either purchase, borrowed, or at least listened to the Harry Smith Anthology of Folk Music that was issued by Folkways in the early 1950's. An amazing collection that inspired many people to fall in love with this type of music.   That entire collection was a bootleg. The songs chosen were all commercially released 78's - some less than 20 years old when they appeared on the collection. Since this was the 1950's and litigation was not yet a national pastime, no one sued Moses Asch or Harry Smith.   Imagine what would happen today.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:04 PM

Fumblefingers, I would also suggest that you read the article again.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:07 PM

The demonisation of the record companies doesn't spring from any internal neurosis - but rather the way that industry has conducted itself over many years. I doubt if there is one musician, and certainly there are no professional musicians who don't have stories to tell of being stolen from, exploited, cheated and worse.

You see these people coming and you have to just grit your teeth and say, well if I want to make records - this is how it is.

The internet has meant liberation from these idiots who have presided over their own decline. their real problem is that they've all got the X factor. A bit like the plague when they chalked it on peoples' doors. Not long now and they'll be carting them away on a barrow.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:08 PM

The law here in the UK is that it is already technically illegal to make personal copies of a legally purchased CD. Of course, you ought to be able to make copies for personal use if everyone was honest and fair-minded where an artist's livelihood is concerned. Unfortunately they are not.

Mick and I do not always agree in certain other areas but I'm with him 100% on this. The industry ought to have acted much earlier to guarantee the rights of artists. Royalties are an important part of earnings and can mean the difference between meeting or missing a mortgage payment. An artist cannot receive anything from a piratd recording. Remember that.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:15 PM

I wonder

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:25 PM

Well, that sure didn't work. I start over.

I wonder if Guido was sued for making those little marks to attempt to record MUSIC???? Next came bars and staffs and, well, you know, the cat was out of the bag then! Music has gone from the ephemeral and unique to the infinitely reproducible and generic. The Brave New Digital World is still a wild frontier. Law and order will come but we don't really know in what form that may be. Right now, everybody and everything is at risk. As a child of the West and kind of a cowboy at heart, I like it, but it ain't a gonna last.

Some bright minds, some of you maybe, will hit upon a way to protect our property and identities and things will settle down. I hear it coming like a song on the wind. Someone catch it. Record it. Save it for all of us. We need it.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:34 PM

Here is a link to the filing in this case - pdf file .

I am not a lawyer, but after wading through the papers, I do not see where the RIAA is suing simply for making a personal MP3 copy.

I could be wrong, but in my opinion it seems like the defendent's lawyer found a sympathetic reporter and twisted the case in his favor. I do not see this lawyer discussing the evidence of file sharing on Kazaa, which seems to be at the heart of the RIAA's case.

We can get as poetic and uptight as we want - it might do some oldtimers some good to rage against "the system" again, but property is property. While Madonna might not be able to afford another fancy mansion because of piracy, it is also effecting the people in our community who create songs and perform as a way to feed a family.

I think I smell something coming in that wind, and it ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 01:44 PM

fuck off, fumblefingers. Before you tell me to read the article before getting on my high horse, perhaps you should read my post before spouting your ignorant horseshit. I started off by saying the industry was wrong on this latest twist. I read the article before posting. You should try that, but try reading for comprehension.

Stealing is stealing. All the other arguments made are simply attempts to get us to focus on something other than you want something you should have to pay for, for nothing. I completely agree that the world has changed, and how we market must also change. But don't try to legitimize getting something you would otherwise have to pay for free.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 02:41 PM

The point is that its only the Madonna characters who ever were protected. And even then its only because they earn such a lot that they don't miss what doesn't get collected.

That story about how Allen Klein got started by going up to recording artists and saying, d'you want a hundred thousand dollars - knowing he could make record companies pay that much because they daren't submit to an audit.

It only works for VERY successful artists. Lots of time, I've spent years doing doing shit jobs and shit gigs, because I didn't have the kind of muscle to extract money from people who simply knew they could get away with it - small amounts - but they would have paid the mortgage and put food on the table.

That other legend about the record company making Robert Johnson use the goods entrance to their building. Bottom line - they're attitude to artists hasn't changed. If they go down, good shuts!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 02:58 PM

Hopefully, that if the court rules against the defendant
on the issue of ripping his licensed material to MPS3
on his computer it will place the nuance of intent of
use on the ruling so that the RIAA can't move against
everyone who puts CD tracks on their ipod or on MP3
CDs for use in their car.

In other words, what might make the ripping process illegal
was his doing so with intent to violate copyright by sharing
said copies.

That said, the record industry as we have known it is dead.
It'll go on for a few years, like an auto company that has so
much capital that it can flounder along for a decade or two before
it figures out that the world has passed it by.

Even DRM (Digital Rights Management) has seen its day---
major records company are starting to drop copy protection and
sell tracks which are unlocked; the consumer demands it--- he
wants to pay a dollar a song, and be able to play it back on
his IPod, his car, his computer at work and his Media Center
PC. At that rate, he's really not that motivated to engage in
piracy.

Oh, there will always be some, usually among people with more
time than money. But a lot of those are young people, who,
when they do have earning power, will become the music industry's
best customers.

In the Dec 2007 edition of Wired magazine, there's an interesting
article about Universal Media's CEO Doug Morris, and how he's coping
(or not) with the changes. Even he seems to realize that the
industry is going to change from providing a physical product (i.e.
vinyl and now CDs) to providing a service (i.e., download of
digital materials).

But while everyone, from the RIAA to our own Big Mick jump up and
down and try and define 'stealing,' the world moves forward. Even
the record companies.

The real question is whether anybody will need them any more.

In return for providing musicians what they couldn't provide
for themselves--- a way to produce and distribute materials,
record companies took ownership of the whole process from inception
the production and marketing. They made their money on the product.
And they could do so because they could control the distribution
channel. They really had control of the musicans' "air supply."

Now that they no longer control the distribution channel, and
control of the distribution channel is what all this legal posturing
is really all about, they no longer control the music.

Do the artists still need what the record companies offered? Sure.
They need to be promoted, they need a way to distribute product and
receive revenue. They need someone to invest a million dollars in a
tour when they don't themselves have a few hundred for next month's
rent. They need the networking that puts song-writers together with
song-singers. Absent the record companies, it isn't clear how all
that is going to happen.

To bring it back to the folk music world, what really gets me is
that so many folk musicians continue to try to deal with their
recorded music in a miniaturized model of the big record labels.
Only they've lacked---miserably ---the wide production and
distribution facilities that the big labels used to make their
money. Their studio production costs are a massive percentage
of the money they'll ever make on a recording; unlike the big
labels, where even the big studio and mastering costs are still
just a drop in the bucket of a multi-platinum revenue. Their
distribution process usually consists of some mail-order, boxes
of CDs they lug from gig to gig, and festival sale-tables which
rip off either the artists or buyers or both with insane markups,
then pay slowly or not at all.

There are some bright spots, such as CDBaby, which provides both
digital and physical distribution at very fair terms to artists
and which also allows (somewhat less lucrative but still effective)
access to artists' music via iTunes and the whole gamut of digital
media outlets.

I actually see future 'pop' acts coming up through channels
such as CDBaby and maybe just staying there. They'll find the
promotion and backing they need through a new breed of non-affiliated
promoters and through a new type of entertainment 'venture
capitalist.'

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:11 PM

Yes, stealing is stealing! However the big recording companies have stolen more from artists than anyone else so it makes empathy at times hard to come by. If the public steal from the recording industry what they have already stolen, it may still be stealing but who is it that has been stolen from?????
Stealing may be a crime but at times it may still be legal. I love to quote Woody. "some will rob you with a six gun; some with a fountain pen."
       Happy New Year To All!!!!
                  Sandy

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:22 PM

Copyright law is convoluted and obscure and arcane and unintelligible to people like us and even lawyers who don't specialize in it.

I have always assumed that is intentional.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:24 PM

All those platitudes aside, (shall we start the Lomax argument again as long as we are all getting going????) the issue of protection of one's intellectual property must be dealt with. Despite GregB's sideways slap, he actually has a pretty good handle on it. I don't have a lick of a problem with selling my cuts one at a time. I love the concept of CDBaby, and have watched my good buddy Jed Marum use it, and others, quite effectively. As I continue to march down the path towards my new CD, and my band's new CD, I fully intend to use these outlets. I don't have a problem with free downloads, as long as I authorize them.

Where my problem lies is with those that seek to use all these tired old arguments (like Sandy Mc Lean for whom I otherwise have great respect)to justify stealing. When you let folks act like it is OK, or even justifiable, to steal from them, then what are we to do when they steal from us? Or the Patons over at Folk Legacy? My point is that we must be in control of our product, and our intellectual property, or ultimately we lose the ability to make it.

I love the new era of artists being in control of their destiny. But there is a very real danger in this notion that one is entitled to rip off my product without so much as a tip of the hat.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,QuestionMark
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 03:33 PM

It seems the music industry is doing whatever it can, now out of desperation. They've lost control of distribution, artist development, recording studios, packaging...everything except the ability to get megastar acts they are tied to promoting booked into large city auditoriums. Even there, they've lost out on a lot of revenue due to the mysterious ticket broker industry, which somehow has become legitimized (how I'm not sure.)

The problem with all this is that while any musician can not distribute, record, package, freely develop their own music...the fact is its even harder now for a musician to make any kind of money doing so. Probably, even harder than it was than when the music industry business was in control. When everyone in the world has a high quality CD recorded on their home studio, CD's lose the allure of being associated with being a professional recording star. When CD's are routinely sold at every gig by near every musician, they become more a memory of attending a venue than the artist. Getting mass distribution of a recorded track or a CD becomes even harder as an indie has more competition than ever and only word of mouth to rely on basically through the internet. Plus, there's less and less live music venues for indies as riches attract riches...especially and as venues cease to think offering live music means attracting large audiences like a megastar can. Plus, with less music industry artistic development going on, there's also less chance of a musician hitting it big.

There was a time when getting a song played on an independent radio station meant folks would flock to buy their 45. That's gone, too as are independent radio stations to boot.

I hate to say it, but the music industry had a point in all of their concern. The music industry has reverted back to basically 45's via itunes and so much of the individually self produced indie tracks are laying unsold in the bins without anyone even knowing what they are. It makes me think with all of the ability to now get one's own music out to the public without making money...we're a bit back to the regional musician era days of Son House, Robert Johnson, etc. Folks making great music that only a handful know about in their time. Keeping in mind it was the music industry that many years later, when they realized they could make big money, brought widely to others through their promos and deriviative acts.

Just my thoughts on all this on the last day of the year.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:13 PM

Actually, in most recording and music publishing contracts unless a record company has opted for one of the new MU "profit sharing" contracts (mmmmmmm, remember the conspiracy suits against the US film majors about thier defintions of "net profits?) the artist or composer gets remunerated out of retail vinyl and CD sales (and in music publishing contracts, other defined categories of revenue). The Norm is NOT to share internet revenue.

So the only person (mostly) getting hurt when Joe Schmoe makes an "illegal" internet downoad is the man, not the artist.

Let's stuff the industry, and have artists earn their money playing live, and off their own website sales. Maybe we'd get some music instead of some VERY soft porn masquerading as girl groups.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:38 PM

And does everyone remember "Payola"? The stench of the Almighty Dollar emanates from every crack and crevice in the industry of sound and always has. As with most arts, the dealers, distributors, the sellers never see or understand art but they do know how to make (and more important, keep) a buck. Just what the commodity is, is not important. Understanding the consumer, manipulating wants and desires is ALL important. It seems as though one either has "art" or "business" but seldom both. That, or a "Nose to the grindstone" mentality. This is who mostly buys the music and other various and sundry dreams. For what it's worth...

Slag

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: oggie
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:42 PM

Also bear in mind that this is the same industry that is trying to reduce the percentage paid to artists on the grounds of "new channels of distribution".

I also remember a post on this site where someone was praised for getting a celtic knotwork font without paying for it.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 04:57 PM

Och Mick , the respect is mutual , I assure you! Like you I have spent too many years in the labour movement, to not be suspicious of big industry.
My own wish would be that copyright would have to remain with the songwriter and artist, and not with the publisher or recording company. Only permission to publish or record would be granted, but the originator of the work would always remain in control. I certainly support the rights of the artist, but have a problem with the industry. I'm just a lifelong democratic socialist who keeps pissing into the wind! :-}
                        Slainte,
                               Sandy

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:17 PM

copyright would have to remain with the songwriter and artist, and not with the publisher or recording company

Yeah, right.

But what about the artists who signed a contract with a friend (Bill Leader) giving those rights to that recording company owner, only to see that company sold twice over once he went out of business?

These artists now get no royalties nor recognition for their work. Can't be right . . .

Now, back to watching Life Of Brian. Bloody hell, just actually heard that MFAFH snatch on the MFI ad.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

"But what about the artists who signed a contract with a friend (Bill Leader) giving those rights to that recording company owner, only to see that company sold twice over once he went out of business?"

The lesson is, be careful what you sign. Life sucks.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:07 PM

That, Mr Olesko, is the most anti-humanitarian, most cynical and most fucking stupid comment I have ever seen on Mudacat.

Tell that to Lal Waterson, Tony Rose and Peter Bellamy. If you could. They're dead. Or to Nic Jones who is not but who has been unable to continue his career because of disability. Or to all the other artists, living or dead, whose work is buried in a Harrogate vault.

This is the archive, with only a few exceptions, that remains unavailable:

LEA 4001 Jack Elliott Jack Elliott of Birtley [With booklet] [Leader - orange label] (1969)
Little chance; Brokken tanner; (Jews' harp); Unlucky duck; Broom's reel; Rakes of Mallow (mouth organ); Lassie would ye lo'e me?; Silent budgie (story); Golden slippers; Poor black Joe (banjo); Blind fool; Man with no watch (story); Harrin's Head; Rap her to bank; Jowl, jowl and Listen; Farewell to the 'Cotia; Rowan tree (mouth organ); Banks of the Dee; Parable of the lost shekels; Irish washerwoman; Father O'Flynn (mouth organ); Old man; On yon bottle bank; Just before the battle mother; My old man; Stanley Market; Paddy McGinty's goat; Highland whisky; De'il among the tailors (mouth organ); Preacher and the atheist (story); In the bar room (Jew's harp).
LER 3002 Archie Fisher; Barbara Dickson; John MacKinnon Fate o' Charlie [Trailer - white test label] (1969)
Cam ye o'er frae France [AF]; Three healths; Wha wadna fight for Charlie [AF]; White cockade [BD]; My bonny Highland laddie [JM]; Highland widow's lament [BD]; Prestonpans; Battle of Prestonpans [AF]; Killicrankie [AF]; O'er the water to Charlie [BD]; Prince Charlie; Highland Harry [BD]; Fate o' Charlie [JM]; Highlander's lament [AF]; O'er the water; Flowers o' the forest [BD].
LEA 2003 Seamus Ennis Seamus Ennis [Masters of Irish Music Series] [Leader - turquoise label] (1969)
Uuillean pipes: Pinch of snuff; Fairie's hornpipe; Gold ring; Fairy straying; Song: False hearted lover; Whistle: Ditherum doodah; Bird's chorus; Uillean pipes: Lark in the morning; Lark's march.
LEA 2004 Martin Byrnes   Martin Byrnes [Masters of Irish Music series] [Reg Hall (piano)] [Leader - turquoise label] (1969)
Duke of Leinster reel; Duke of Leinster's wife reel; Paddy Fahey's jig; Cliffs of Moher jig; Tarbolton reel; Longford Collector reel; Sailor's bonnet reel; Banty Bay hornpipe; Stack of barley hornpipe; Farewell to Ireland reel; Irish Molly reel; Ashplant reel; Liffey Banks reel; Shaskeen reel; Hitler's downfall jig; Battle of Aughrim polka; Humours of Lissadel reel; Blackbird; Rodney's glory; Collier's reel; Bucks of Oranmore reel.
LEA 2005 Seamus Tansey   Seamus Tansey [Masters of Irish Music series] [Seamus Tansey - flute, tin whistle, tambourine; Eddie Corcoran - tin whistle, tambourine; Reg Hall - piano; Paul Gross - piano (1970)
Reels: Jackie Coleman's No 1 / No 2; The Morning Dew; Boys of Laoise; Miss Monaghan; Colonel Frazer / Miss McLeod's; O'Rourke's / The Wild Irishman; The Bloom of Youth / Lord MacDonald's; The Steam Packet / The Limestone Rock; Pigeon on the Gate / The Reel of Mullinavat. Jigs: Tansey's Favourite / The Bride's Favourite; The Maid of St Kisco / Tom Ward's Downfall; Farewell to Gurteen / Kid on the Mountain; The Cliffs of Moher / Paddy Fahy's; The Battering Ram; Corcoran's Fancy. Hornpipes: Birmingham / Leitrim Fancy.
LEA 4006 Billy Pigg Border Minstrel [grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1971)
High Level hornpipe; Biddleston hornpipe; Carrick hornpipe; I'll get wedded in my auld claes hornpipe; Gentle maiden; Lark in the clear air; Father O'Flynn; Skye crofters; Dr McLeod of Alnwick; Swallow's tail reel; Mallorca H.R.H Duke of Windsor]; Madame Bonaparte; Last of the twins; King of the pipers; Crookit bawbee; Bill Charlton's fancy; Exhibition hornpipe; Billy Pigg's hornpipe; Random jig; Wild hills of Wannies; J R Pigg; Dargai; Happy hours; There's nae guid luck about the house (variations); Holey Happenny.
LER 2007 The High Level Ranters The Lads Of Northumbria [High Level Ranters - Alistair Anderson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Colin Ross] [Trailer - red label / white test label] (1969)
Drops of brandy; Foxhunter's jig; Rocky road to Dublin; Spey in spate; Tusca; College Valley Hunt [Johnny Handle]; Sir John Fenwick's 'The flower among them all'; Baby lie easy [Tom Gilfellon]; Dingle Regatta; Father Kelly's jig; Wedding of Blyth; Andrew Carr; Golden eagle; Sunshine; Johnny Armstrong [Colin Ross]; Derwentwater's farewell [Colin Ross]; Ned of the hill [Colin Ross]; Buy broom besoms [Johnny Handle]; Underhill; Scallowa' lassies; De'il stick the minister; Hares on the mountain [Tom Gilfellon]; Trumpet hornpipe; Cadum Wood.
LER 3008 Bob Davenport Bob Davenport and the Marsden Rattlers [Marsden rattlers - Jim Bainbridge, Susan Bainbridge, Jim Boyles, Jim Irvine, John Lincoln, Tom Montgomery, Derek Proctor, Trevor Sheridan] [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Granny's old armchair; Gipsy girl; Early, early in the spring; Old miner; I wish I was single again; Nell; Mucking of Geordie's byre; Cock of the North; Hey! Canny man; I wish they'd do it now; Bonny bunch of roses; Nineteen thirties; Jarrow shipbuilder; Trimdon Grange disaster; Champion he was a dandy; Geordieland 68.
LER 2009 Martyn Wyndham-Read Ned Kelly and that gang [Trailer - white test label] (1970)
Ned Kelly; Ben Hall's gang; Streets of Forbes; Convict maid; Moreton Bay; Wild colonial boy; Jim Jones; Lament for Ben Hall; Cypress brig; Death of Ben Hall; Stringybark Creek; Farewell to Greta; Ned Kelly.
LER 3010 Lea Nicholson Horsemusic [Performers include - Tim Hart, Maddy Prior, Gay Woods, Terry Woods] [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Here we come a-wassailing; Glory of the North; Greenland bound; Lea Rigs; I live not where I love; I'm the urban spaceman; Bach, Johannes Sebastian - Trio sonata for two manuals and pedal: allegro; Along the Rossendale; Coast of Peru; False knight on the road; Kopya; All through the beer.
LER 2011 Robin & Barry Dransfield Rout of the Blues [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Rout of the Blues; Scarborough Fair; St Clemet's jig; Huntsmen's chorus; Nancy; Waters of Tyne; Earl of Totnes; Tapestry; Trees they do grow high; Week before Easter; Fair maid walking all in her garden; Who's the fool now?
LEA 4012 Various artists Blue Ridge Mountain Field Trip - various artists at the Galax Fiddler's Convention [With 8 page booklet] [Leader - Buff label] (1970)
Hubert Caldwell: Ox bow quadrille; Constitution hornpipe; Staten Island hornpipe; Old Virginia waltz. Sue Draheim, Buddy Pendleton, Mac Benford: Peeler Creek waltz. Carl Flemming, Buddy Pendleton: Liberty; Rutland's reel. Gray Craig, Doug Rorrer, Janet Kerr: Soldier's joy. Gray Cragi, North Carolina Ramblers: Richmond. John Hil: Sweet sunny south; Sugar in the gourd. John Hilt, Tex Isley (guitar): Silver threads among the gold; Reidsville blues; Buck; Live and let live; Nobody's business. John Hilt, Roger Sprun, Joan Sprung (guitar): Devil's dream. Gray Craig, Doug Rorrer: Under the double eagle.
LER 2013 Tony Rose Young Hunting [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford; Bellringing; Young Hunting; Golden Vanitee; Up to the rigs; Three butchers; Royal Oak; Blackwaterside; Parson and the clerk; Tavistock Goosey Fair.
LER 2014 Nic Jones Ballads and songs [Trailer - yellow label] (1970)
Sir Patrick Spens; Butcher and the tailor's wife; Duke of Marlborough; Annan Water; Noble Lord Hawkins; Don't you be foolish pray; Outlandish knight; Reynard the fox; Little Musgrave.
LER 3015 Leon Rosselson Word is hugga mugga chugga lugga humbugga boom chit [with Roy Bailey and Martin Carthy] [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Hugga mugga chugga lugga humbugga boom chit; Garden of stone; Invisible man; Never mind the slugs; Word market; Do you remember?; William; I don't want to die; Remembrance Day
LER 3016 Bob & Carole Pegg He came from the mountains [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Rise up Jock; Scorpion departs but never returns; Lord of the dance; He came from the mountains; Love song number 2; Jimmy's letters; Angeline; Susan's song.
LER 2017 Dave & Toni Arthur Hearken to the witches rune [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Alison Gross; Tam Lin; Fairy tale; Fairy child; Broomfield Hill; Standing stones; Cruel mother; Alice Brand.
LER 3018 Rosemary Hardman & Bob Axford Second season came [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Lady for today; Will Taylor; Andrew; For Midge and the rest; Strangely moved; Oto's rag; There had to be some changes made; Mosaic; Lord Huntley; This man; Butterfly; Out on the bridge.
LER 2019 Various artists Folk Trailer - introduced by Jim Lloyd [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Rout of the Blues [R & B Dransfield]; Bellringing [T Rose]; Lazlo Feher [D & T Arthur]; Jack broke the prison door [A Bain, M Whellans]; Donald Blue [A Bain, M Whellans]; Wha'll dance wi' Willie Wattie [A Bain, M Whellans]; Strangely moved [R Hardman, B Axford]; Love song number 2 [B & C Pegg]; Wild colonial boy [M Wyndham-Read]; Bonny at morn [R Fisher, C Ross]; Cam ye o'er frae France [A Fisher]; Reynard the fox [N Jones] Drops of brandy [High Level Ranters]; Foxhunter's jig [High Level Ranters]; Rocky road to Dublin [High Level Ranters]; Bright morning star [Young Tradition].
LER 2020 The High Level Ranters Keep your feet still Geordie hinnie [High Level Ranters Orchestra - Alistair Anderson, Clem Avery, Colin Beal, Foster Charlton, Albert Gelson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Ronald McLean, Colin Ross, Tom Waugh] [Trailer - red label] (1970)
Keep your feet still Geordie hinny; Pawnshop bleezin; Lambton worm; Come Geordie, ha'd the bairn; Geordie Black; Adam Buckham; Cushie Butterfield; Neighbours doon belaa; Nannie's amaizor; Weshin day; Last neet; Blaydon Races.
LER 3021 Roy Bailey Roy Bailey [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Three butchers; Bitter withy; Dust to dust; Thornaby Woods; How should I your true love know?; Fair maid walking; Poverty knock; Clerk Saunders; No sir no; Dalesman's litany; Palaces of gold.
LER 2022 Aly Bain & Mike Whellans Aly Bain - Mike Whellans [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Jack broke the door; Donald Blue; Wha'll dance wi' Wattie; Jimmy Clay; Maple sugar; Whistlin' through the pines; Buckin' mule; Sweet Georgia Brown; Lucky can du link ony; Foostra; Aandown' at the bow; Fiddler's Green; Willie MacIntosh; Cooley's reel; Neil Gow's lament for his second wife; Steppin' out.
LER 2023 Derek & Dorothy Elliott Derek and Dorothy Elliott [Trailer - red label] (1972)
May dew; Jack the sailor; Tally ho the hounds; Wassail song; Bring us a barrel; Adieu to judges and juries; John Barleycorn; Maria Marten; He that will not merry, merry be; Cornstalk; Robber bridegroom; Lady Maisry.
LER 2024 Tony Rose Under the greenwood tree [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Jockie to the fair; Bridgewater Fair; Just as the tide was flowing; Lark in the morning; Searching for lambs; Basket of eggs; John Blunt; True lovers; Grad conversation on Napoleon; Sheath and knife; Limbo; Trees they do grow high.
LER 2025 Pisces Pisces [Pisces - Richard Digance; Tim Greenwood; John O'Connor] [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Bright new morning; Ballad of Benjamin Bratt; After the night; Jack O'Legs; If I sing you a song; Midsummer symphony; Sam the one eyed snail; Poker Joe.
LER 2026 Robin & Barry Dransfield Lord of all I behold [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Faithful Johnny; Bold Nelson's favourite; Who liveth so merry; Adam and the beasts; Lord of all I behold; Paddy Ryan's dream; Still he sings; Bold William Taylor; Just as the tide was flowing; Wild rover.
LER 2027 Nic Jones Nic Jones [Trailer - red label] (1971)
Lass of London city; Napoleon's lamentation; Bonny bunch of roses; Edward; Outlandish knight; William and Nancy's parting; Lord Bateman; Dance to your daddy; Two brothers; Banks of green willow.
LER 2028 Martyn Wyndham-Read Martyn Wyndham-Read [Trailer - yellow label]. (1971)
Green bushes; Gentle Annie; Banks of Claudy; Jamie Raeburn; Johnny Sands; Main from Buncloudy; Ryebuck shearer; Garten mother's lullaby; Overlander; Wee one; Lost sailor; Oh for me grog.
LER 2029 Dave Burland Dalesman's litany [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Here's the tender coming; Black cook; Lord Lovel; Blacksmith; Dalesman's litany; Beggar; William Taylor; Brisk young widow; Bleacher lassie o' Kelvinhaugh; Rosie Anderson.
LER 2030 The High Level Ranters High Level [High Level Ranters - Alistair Anderson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Colin Ross] [Trailer - yellow label] (1971)
Felton Lonnin; Till the tide comes in; Stay a wee bit bonnie lad; Plains of Waterloo; Hens march; Broken legged chicken; Black cock of Whickham; Trepanner song; Jolly beggar; Papa Stour; Monday morning; Through the fields reel; Tarbolton Lodge reel; I drew my ship; Hartigan's fancy; Tobin's favourite; High Level Bridge hornpipe.
LER 3031 Keith Roberts Pier of the realm [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Blackpool blues; Cage; Pit yard accident; Cobbled streets; Eawt on t' rooks; Maypole disaster; World out of coal; Lament for Albert; Goo an' cleyn thi cogs; Closing of the doss house; Last days of steam.
LER 2032 Swan Arcade Swan Arcade [Swan Arcade - Dave Brady, Heather Brady, Jim Boyes] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Bright shining morning; Anti-Gallician privateer; Battle of Sowerby Bridge; Admiral Benbow; Rol, Alabama, roll; Last Valentine's Day; Lord Willoughby; Hunt is up; Peat bog soldiers; All the good times.
LER 2033 John Kirkpatrick Jump at the sun [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Devil among the tailors; Roving journeyman; Jolly ploughboys; Alle Psallite; Rambling comber; Arrnagement of Morris tunes including - Morris call, I'll go and enlist for a sailor, Cuckoo's nest [three versions], Old woman tossed up in a blanket, Rose, Black joke, Maid of the mill [two versions], Bonny green garters; Widow of Westmorland's daughter; Princess Royal; Mattheson, Johann: Gigue No. 4; Once I loved a maiden fair; Dust to dust; Puddlegum's misery hornpipe; Accordianism jig; Jump at the sun jig.
LER 3034 Roger Nicholson Nonesuch for dulcimer [with Robert Johnson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Nonesuch; Medieval garden; In good King Arthur's day; Rakes of Mallow; Bach, Johann Sebastian: Suite for cello No. 6 - gavotte in D; Newlyn Town; Howie's tune; God rest ye merry, gentlemen; Bonny lass o Fyvvio; MacPherson's rant; O'er the river Charlie; Fugue for sulcimer; Laily worm and the mackerel of the sea; Spring season; Appalachian two step; Sheep stealer; Shady grove variations.
LER 3035 Christy Moore Prosperous
LER 3036 Tim Lyons   The Green Linnet   [Trailer - red label] (1972)
You Rambling Boys of Pleasure; Lake of Coolfin; Skillet Pot; Green Fields of Canada; Greem Linnet; Limerick Rake; Van Dieman's Land, Stick to the Crater; Am Bunan Buide (The Yellow Bittern); An Droimin Don Dilis (The Sweet Brown Cow).
LER 2037 The High Level Ranters Mile to ride [High Level Ranters - Alistair Anderson, Tom Gilfllon, Johnny Handle, Colin Ross] [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Nae gud luck jig; Charlie Hunter jig; Cold and raw; Beeswing hornpipe; Archie Menzies reel; Border widow's lament; Mile to ride slip jig; Jockey lay up in the hayloft slip jig; Shoemaker; Shepherd's life; A U me hinny bird; Newcastle hornpipe; Gateshead hornpipe; Long Lankin; Gillan the drover; Niel Gow's wife; Dark island; Laird of Drumblair strathspey; Angus Campbell reel.
LER 2038 Ray Fisher Bonnie birdy [Performers include: Alistair Anderson; Bobby Campbell; Martin Carthy; Tim Hart; Ashley Hutchings; Peter Knight; Colin Ross; Liz Sobell; Stefan Sobell] [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Johnny Sangster; Mill o' Tifty's Annie; Bonny at morn; Forfar sodger; Pride of Glencoe; Silkie of Sul Skerry; Shipyard apprentice; Bonny birdy.
LER 2039 Mike Harding Lancashire lad [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
German clockwinder; Walls of Jericho; Lancashire lads; Three ha'pence a foot; Hand waver and the factory maid; keyhole in the door; Number eighty one bus; Cock and the ass; Sodom and Gomorrah; July wakes; Hattersley lament.
LEA 4040 Gray Craig and the new North Carolina Ramblers and Tex Islay North Carolina Boys . [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label / orange label] (1972)
Run boy, run; Redwing; Shanty Town; Dark Town Strutters' Ball; Letter edged in black; Fly around my pretty little miss; Polecat blues; Old Joe Clark; Walking in my sleep; Greenfields; Silver Bells; North Carolina Boys; Flop-eared mule; Fourteen days in Georgia; Precious memories; Will you be true?
LEA 4041 Charlie Wills [Grey gatefold with integral 16 page booklet] [Leader - orange label]. (1972)
Derby Ram; Barbara Allen; Banks of sweet Dundee; Germany clockmaker; Game of cards; Up to the rigs of London town; Corduroy; Brennan on the moor; Ruth Butcher; Household remedies; Our goodman; Go and leave me; Oak and the ash.
LEE 4042 George Dunn George Dunn [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1973)
Oyster girl; Cold blows the wind; Edward; Miller's song; Nottingham poacher; Young sailor bold; Here we come a-wazlin'; Nelson's death; John Riley; Henry my son; Oh, it was my cruel parents; Gallant poachers; All fours.
LEA 2043 John Doonan Flute for the Feis [Leader - turquoise label] (1972)
Sean Maguire's reel; McMahon's reel; Hunt; Smash the windows jig; Off she goes jig; Bonaparte's retreat; Sport of the chase slip jig; Flowers of Antrim hornpipe; Quarrelsome piper hornpipe; An Coolin; Fermoy lassies reel; Sporting Paddy reel; Dawn reel; Ace and deuce of pipering; Saddle the pony slow jig; Shandon bells slow jig; Little heathy hill; King of the fairies; Eileen Aroon; Bonny Kate reel; Jenny's chickens reel.
LEA 2044 Coleman Country Traditional Society Music from the Coleman Country   [Coleman Country Traditional Society - Andrew Davey, Jim Donaghue, Seamus Donaghue, Bernie Finn, Fred Finn, Oliver Killoran, John Joe Mooney, John O'Gara, Peter Horan, Seamus Tansey, Tommy Toolan] [Leader - turquoise label] (1972)
O'Rourke's reel; Wild Irishman reel; Laurel tree reel; Blackthorn stick reel; Willie Coleman's jig; Brendan Tone Rowe's jig No 2; Musical priest reel; Trim the velvet reel; Cuckoo hornpipe; Boys at the lough reel; Devils of Dublin reel; Wise maid reel; Strike the gay harp jig; Lough Gowna jig; Lord Gordon's reel; Fox chase rel; Killavil jig; Lilting banshee jig; Kid on the mountain jig; Miss McLeod's reel; Michael Rilly's reel; Martin Wynn's reel No 2; Anachuin; Morning dew reel; Woman of the house reel; Rakish Paddy reel.
LEE 4045 Lonnie Austin & Norman Woodlieff Lonnie Austin & Norman Woodlieff
LEAB 404 Copper Family Song for Every Season - the singing tradition of the Copper Family of Rottingdean, Sussex [Boxed set of 4 records with 16 page booklet] (1971)
LEA 4046 - Tater Beer Night [Leader - orange label]
Dame Durdon; By the green grove; Spencer the rover; Charming Molly; Sweep chimney sweep; Rose of Allandale; Pleasant month of May; When spring comes on; Spotted cow; Wop She 'ad it i-o; Week before Easter; Brisk and lively lad.
LEA 4047 - Black Ram [Leader - orange label]
Sheep shearing song; Adieu sweet lovely Nancy; Claudy banks; Sweet lemeney, Corduroy; Come all bold Britons; No John no; Shepherd's song; Thousands or more; Shepherd of the Downs; As I walked out.
LEA 4048 - Hollerin' Pot [Leader - orange label]
Seamen bold; When Adam was first created; Lawyer bold; Gentlemen of high renown; My love has gone; Battle of Alma; Warlike seamen; Brisk and bonny lad; Sportsmen arouse; Admiral Benbow; Wind across the moor; Oh good ale.
LEA 4049 - Turn o' the Year [Leader - orange label]
Shepherds arise; Softly the night; Christmas song; Babes in the wood; Dying soldier; Brisk young ploughboy; Heigh ho sing ivy; Jolly good song; Two young brethren; Ploughshare; Come write me down.
LEA 4050 Unto Brigg Fair Various artists   [Grey gatefold with integral with 20 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label].   (1972)
Joseph Taylor: Sprig o' thyme; Died for love; Brigg Fair; White hare; Lord Bateman; Rufford Park Poachers; Gipsy's wedding day; Worcester City; Creeping Jane; Murder of Maria Martin; Sprig o' thyme; Bold William Taylor. Mr Thompson: Lord Bateman. Joseph Leaning: Green bushes; Sheffield apprentice. George Gouldthorpe: Horkstow Grange. Joseph Taylor: Landlord and tenant; Bold Nevison. George Wray: Lord Melbourne. Dean Robinson: Bold Robin Hood; T'owd yowe wi' one horn.
LED 2051 Irish Music from The Favourite   Jimmy Power (fiddle), Tony Ledwith (accordeon), Tom Power (guitar), Paul Gross (piano), Reg Hall (piano). (1971)
Jigs: Statia Donelly's / Mick Gorman's Fancy. Reels: Last Night's Fun / Martin Wynn's; The Woman of the House / The Morning Dew; The Donegal / The Mooncoin; Toss the Feathers / Cooley's / The Earl's Chair; Paddy Malynn's / The Green Groves; Kitty's Gone a-Milking / Miss Thornton; The Tempest / Colonel Rodney / John Morrison; Bonny Ann / Miss Johnson; The Mistress / St Anne's; The Copperplate / The Kilmaley / The Pigeon on the Gate / The Maid of Castlebar. Set Dance: Princess Royal. Jigs: Willy Clancy's / Mag Long's; Lanigan's Ball / Gallagher's Frolics; The Kesh. Hornpipe: Sean Ryan's Fancy; Hornpipe Selection.
LED 2052 Da Forty Fiddlers, Cullivoe Traditional Players, Tom Anderson, Aly Bain Shetland Fiddlers [Leader - turquoise label] (1973)
Forty Fiddlers: Galley Watch; Kail and knockit corn; Burn o' Weinerdalittle; Fashion o' da Delting lassies; Oliver Jack; Willafjord; Shaalds o' Foula; Garster's dream; Brig; Faeroe rum; Aandowin' at da bow; Forfeit o' da ship; Come agen ye're welcome; Black hat. Cullinvoe Traditional Players: Faery reel; De'il amang the tailors; Spence's reel; Lay de at dee; Oot and In da harbour; High road to Linton. Bobby Jamieson, Willie Barclay Henderson: Yellow haired lassie; Sleep soond ida mornin'. Willie Barclay Henderson, John Henderson: Crab and da capstan; Haad da thing ta Gibbie. Tom Anderson, Aly Bain: Wynadelba; Soldier's joy. Forty Fiddlers: Craw dang pussy; Whattle o't; Gordon's favourite; Laird o' Gulberwick; Auld hill grind; Fram ipon him; Jack broke da prison door; Donal' Blue; Sail 'er o'er da raftrees; De'il stick da minister; Taste da green; Harlock's reel; Robertson's reel; Hamefarers; Sixareen.
LED 2053 Virginia Reel Fiddle and banjo tunes recorded in Galax, Virginia. [Leader - turquoise label] (1974)
Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Dance all night. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson: Roustabout. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Redwing. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Old country church. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell: John Hardy. Parley Gray, Bobby Patterson: Weeping Willow. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Pig in the pen. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Cacklin' hen; Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell: Lost Indian. Parley Gray, Bobby Patterson, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: Sunny side of the mountain. Parley Grey, Bobby Patterson: Sweet sunny South. Parley Grey, Bobby Patterson: Coleman Ridge backstep. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell: Soldier's joy. Kyle Creed, Bobby Patterson, Parley Grey, Roy Russell, Katie Goulding: I don't love nobody.
LEE 4054 Cecilia Costello Cecilia Costello - recording from the sound archives of the BBC [grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1975)
Cruel mother; I wish, I Wwish; There was a squire in Edinboro' lived; Wexford murder; Handsome cabin boy; Betsy of Ballantown Brae; Jew's garden; I am a maid that's deep in love; Wedding song; Shule agra; Lover's ghost.
LEA 4055 Various artists Old British ballads of Donegal and Derry - Traditional singers collected by Hugh Shields. With booklet. (1975)
John Ban: The Dark Eyed Gypsy; Little Sir Hugh. Joe McCafferty: John Barbour (Willie o' Wynsbury). Willy Duggan: Baile Leo (Two Sisters). Susie Phaidi Oig: The Weary Gallows. Mr X: Willy O. John Flemming: The Hillman (Our Goodman). Eddie Butcher: The Bride Stolen by Fairies (Tam Lin); The Widow's Daughter. Alec Foster: Stock and Wall; The Creel. Charlie Somers: Barbro Allen. Mrs Tilly Quigley: The Dark-Eyed Gypsy.
LEE 4056 A Fine Hunting Day   Songs of the Holme Valley Beagles [Grey gatefold with integral 12 page booklet] [Leadr - orange label] (1975)
On a fine hunting morn; Castle Hill anthem; Old Snowball; Scent was good; Brown hare of Whitebrook; Gossip John; Hounds are out; Joe the carrier's lad; Some gentlemen take great delight; Doctor Mack; Holmfirth Anthem.
LEE 4057 Far Canadian Fields Companion to the Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs. Various artists   [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1975)
Mr & Mrs Albert Simms: Loss of the Ellen Munn; Clyde Gilmour: H'Emmer Jane. Jim Docherty: When the shanty boy come down. Lennox Gavan: Lake of the Caogama. Mr & Mrs Albert Simms: Young Spanish lass. John Leahy: Lonesome scenes of winter. Mrs Arlington Fraser: Jolly raftsman o. O J Abbott: By the hush, me boys; Captain Charles Cates: Life in the prairie shack. Mrs Arlington Fraser: Young MacDonald. Mrs Eva Bigrow: Willie drowned in Ero. O J Abbott: Plains of Waterloo; Bonny bunch of roses o; O J Abbott: Weaver. Robert J Campbell: Seven gypsies on yon hill. Emerson Woodcock: Footboy.
058 Not issued
059 Not issued
LED 2060 John J Kimmel Early recordings of Irish traditional dance music   (1977)
Reels: Cuckoo's Nest / Mason's Apron; Jigs: Rakes of Kildare /Devlin's Favourite; Reels: Bonnie Kate / Swallow's Tail / Star of Munster; Medley of Clogs; Jigs: Haste to the Wedding/ Larry O'Gaff / Colairne; Irish Boy March; Jigs: Haley's Favorite; Hornpipes: Rights of Man / Liverpool / Sailor's; Reels: Floggan Reel / Cup of Tea; Jigs: Three Little Drummers / Connaughtman's Ramble / To the Ladies / Devlin's Favourite; Hornpipes: Bryant's Favourite / Birds in the Tree; Jigs: Contentment is Wealth / Untitled; Reels: Salmango / Off Key; Reels: Stack of Barley / Blackberry Blossoms / Green Fields of America; Jig: The Trip to the Cottage.
061 Not issued
LEE 4062 John Maguire Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [Leader - turquoise label] (1973)
Molly Bawn Lowry; Marrowbones; Bonny Irish boy; Thousands are sailing to Amerikay; Bonny wee lassie that never said no; My charming Mary; Constant farmer's son; Joe Higgins; Handsome collier lad; Dick Mooney's daughter; In praise of John Magee; Lovely Jane from Enniskea.
LED 2063 Walter Pardon Proper Sort   [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Leader - yellow label]   (1975)
Poacher's fate; Let the wind blow high or low; Old Brown's daughter; Rambling blade; Van Dieman's land; Dark eyed sailor; Trees they do grow high; Ship to England came; Miller and his sons; British man-of-war; Jack Tar ashore.
064 Not issued
LEE 4065 A People's Carol   A Christmas singing tradition recorded in South Yorkshire pubs. [Grey gatefold with integral 8 page booklet] [orange label] (1975)
Hark, hark what news [Black Bull, Ecclesfield]; While shepherds (Liverpool) [Fountain, Ingbirchworth]; Jacob's Well [White Hart, Oughtibridge]; Christmas tree [Royal Hotel, Dungworth]; Arise, arise good Christians [Royal Hotel, Dungworth]; Hail! Smiling morn [Fountain, Ingbirchworth]; Star of Bethlehem [White Hart, Oughtibridge]; While shepherds (Foster) [Fountain, Oughtibridge]; Ring out ye bells [Black Bull, Ecclesfield]; Six jolly miners [Black Bull, Ecclesfield]; Merry Christmas [Toyal Hotel, Dungworth].
066 Not issued
LED 2067 Copper Family Song For Every Season - the Copper Family of Rottingdean, Sussex   [Tracks from the 4LP set] [Leader - yellow label] (1971)
Pleasant month of May; Sheep shearing song; When Adam was first created; Adieu sweet lovely Nancy; Wop she 'ad it-io; Wind across the moor; Claudy banks; Shepherds arise; You gentlemen of high renown; My love has gone; Come write me wown; Spencer the rover; Thousands or more.
LED 2068 Stephen Baldwin English Village Fiddler - BBC recordings by Peter Kennedy, 13 October 1952 [Leader - orange label] (1976)
Gloucester hornpipe [called Liverpool hornpipe on BBC list]; Greensleeves; Haste to the wedding; Flanagan's ball; Girl I left behind me; Irish washerwoman; Liverpool Hornpipe [called Swansea hornpipe on BBC list]; Napoleon's march; Cottage hornpipe [Fisher's hornpipe]; Untitled hornpipe [Liverpool hornpipe]; Off she goes; Pop goes the weasel; Coleford jig; Ted Smith's hornpipe; Untitled polka; Cock o' the north; Soldier's joy; College hornpipe [called Gipsy hornpipe and Gloucester hornpipe on BBC list]; Irish jig [Rory O'More]; Old fashioned waltz; Untitled schottische No 1; Untitled schottische No 2; Heel and toe polka; Varsoviana [not the tune usually known by this title]; Untitled hornpipe [Morpth rant]; Cabbages and onions [Phillebelulah, Cumberland reel, King of the Cannibal Isle] [called Double dee doubt, Double lead out on the BBC list]; Pretty little dear [Triumph, Stp and fetch her, Shave the donkey]; Just as the tide was flowing; Anywhere does for me (song).
LEA 2069 Beresford Band Yorkshire Dales Dance Night   [Beresford Band - Peter Beresford (electronic accordion), Mary Beresford (drums), John Wallbank (fiddle)] [Leader - orange label] (1977)
Friendly waltz; Maxina; Eva three step; Waltz Marie; Military two step; Doris waltz; Royal empress tango; Breakaway blues; St Bernard's waltz.
LED 2070 Eddie Butcher Shamrock, Rose and Thistle [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Leader - orange label] (1976)
Mountain streams where the moorcock crows; Daysman; Man, woman and mouse; David's flowery vale; Tossing the hay; Conversation; Creel of peats; Killyclare; Fan; Don't come again; Farmer's daughter; Youghal harbour; Ship's carpenters wife; Another man's wedding.
LED 2071 The Rakes   The Rakes [Rakes - Paul Gross, Reg Hall, Michael Plunkett] [Leader - turquoise label] (1975)
Babes in the wood polka; All the way to Galway polka; Dashing white sergeant reel; Bottom of the punch bowl reel; Greensleeves schottische; Harry Cox's schottische; Carry me down to Carlow schottische; Geese in the bog jig; Butcher's march jig; Jimmy Garson's march; Lucy Farr's jig No 1; Lucy Farr's jig No 2; Carraroe jig; Mug of brown ale jig; Honeysuckle hornpipe; Pound Hill hornpipe; Bold Reynolds waltz; Gaelic waltz; Maggie Pickens schottische; Ma McNulty's schottische; Lucy Farr's polka No 1; Lucy Farr's polka No 2; Molly in the wood polka; Tralee Gaol polka; Maggie in the wood polka.
LER 2072 Dick Gaughan No more forever [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Rattlin', roarin' Willie; Briar's britches; MacCrimmon's lament; Mistress Jamieson's favourite; Jock o' Hazeldean; Cam ye ower frae France: Bonnie banks of Fordie; Thatchers o' Glenrae; Fair flower of Northumberland; Teetotaller; Tushker; Three healths; John MacLean march; Green linnet.
LER 2073 Al O'Donnell Al O'Donnell
LER 2074 Alistair Anderson Plays English concertina [Trailer - yellow label] (1972)
Noble Squire Dacre; Dookin' for apples reel; Doon reel; New policeman reel; Music in the glen reel; Kid on the mountain slip jig; Bach, Johann Sebastian: Sonata No. 6 in E - Minuets 1 and 2, Bouree; Entertainer; Hill o' Finnigirt reel; Black hat reel; Madame Bonaparte; Bach, Johann Sebastian: Suite in B minor - polonaise; City of Savannah hornpipe; Poppy leaf hornpipe; Another jig will do slip jig; To Limerick we go slip jig; Hunt the hare slip jig; Dorrington lads jig; Hawk reel; Left handed sailor reel.
LER 2075 Rosemary Hardman Firebird [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Firebird; I can find you anywhere; Way it is; Mistress of my time; Who shall count for thee?; Song to the evening sky; Horses of the sea; King William's bequests; Fiddler man; Rondeau.
LES 2076 Watersons Bright Phoebus [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Performers include - Martin Carthy, Bob Davenport, Clare Deniz, Dennis Field, Richard Gold, Gordon Graham, Tim Hart, Ashley Hutchings, Sue Kirkpatrick, Bill Leader, Dave Mattacks, Keith Nichols, Maddy Prior, Sammy Rimmington, Richard Thompson, Bernie Vickers] [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Rubber band; Scarecrow; Fine horseman; Winifer Odd; Danny Rose; Child among the weeds; Magical man; Never the same; To make you stay; Shady lady; Red wine and promises; Bright Phoebus.
LER 2077 Pete and Chris Coe Open the door and let us in [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Acting song; Banks of the red roses; Cheshire May Day carol; Lady Diamond; False knight; Joseph Baker; Wizard of Alderley Edge; Wife of Usher's Well; Egloshayle Ringers; Plains of Waterloo; Hugh of Lincoln; Gay fusilier.
LER 2078 Vin Garbutt Valley of Tees [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Danny Danielle; Johnny Hart; Glens of sweet Mayo; Gallagher's frolics jig; Sally garden's reel; High reel; Valley of Tees; Barney Brallaghan's courtship; Tim le Blanc; Pat O'Donnell; White hart; Garbutt's favourite; Streets of Staithes; Mr Gunman.
LER 2079 Tom Gilfellon Loving mad Tom [Trailer - red label] (1972)
Mad Tom of Bedlam; Outlandish knight; American stranger; George Collins; Cruel mother; Dust song; Keech I' the creel; We had not been a-sailing; Garratt Barry's favourite; Frieze britches; Free and easy; Foggy, foggy dew; October song.
LER 2080 Taverners Blowing sands [[Taverners - Alan Bell, Pete Rodger, Brian Osborne, Stuat Robinson] [Trailer - red label] (1973)
Lark in the morning; Ladies dance at Whitsun; Blowing sands; Young and single sailor; Rape of Glencoe; I'm looking for a job; Sir Thomas Tylesley; Windmills; La Pique; Sambo's song; Lord Middleton; Dark island.
LER 2081 Vin Garbutt Young tin whistle pest [Trailer - red label] (1975)
Coolie's reel; My loves in Germany; Black horse; Black Lion maggot; Howard Green; Cuckoo hornpipe; Sean sa ceoigh; Slaggy Island farewell; Chemical worker's song; Dunphy's hornpipe; Rattigan's reel; Lover's ghost.
082 Not issued
LER 2083 Jon Raven, Nic Jones, Tony Rose Songs of a changing world [with booklet] [Trailer - red label / yellow label] (1973)
Rosemary; Wedgefield Wakes; Travelling people; Bad squire; Lancashire lads; Wife for sale; Poverty knock; Grinders; Hold the fort; Nailmaker's strike; Jolly Joe the collier's son; You won't get me down in your mine; Blantyre Explosion.
LER 2084 Marie Little Marie Little [with Smiley Bowker, dobro; Barry Dransfield, fiddle; Doug Sherriff, melodeon; Dave Bland, concertina] [Trailer - red label] (1973)
Shearing; For Free; Clayton Analine; Highwayman; Waiting for my Pay Day; Dark Island; Alice White; Enlisted Collier; Cock Pecked Wife; Cotton Mills; Hello! Hans; John Anderson my Jo.
LER 2085 Muckram Wakes Map of Derbyshire [Muckram Wakes - John Tams, Helen Watson, Roger Watson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Spencer the rover; Winster processional theme; Cruise of the Sun Glory; Cathy Shaw; Poor old horse; Watercress-o; Mrs Merry's Ball; Winster gallop polka; Cow i' th' gate; Squire of Tamworth; Fifty years ago; Gilliver; Bone lace weaver; Mallard; Dumper; Pulling down song.
LER 2086 Boys of the Lough Boys of the Lough [Boys of the Lough - Aly Bain, Dick Gaughan, Cathal McConnell, Robin Morton] [Trailer - Red label] (1973)
Boys of the Lough reel; Slanty Gart reel; In praise of John Magee; Wedding march from Unst; Bride's a bonny thing march; Sleep soond i' da morning march; Farewell to whiskey; Old Joe's jig; Last night's joy reel; Granny in the corner reel; Old oak tree; Caoineadh Eoghan Rua lament; Nine points of roguery; Doherty's reel; Flowing tide hornpipe; Andrew Lammie; Sheebeg and Sheemor; Boys in the gap; McMahon's reel; Jackson and Jane; Shaalds o' Foulla; Garster's dream; Brig.
LETSAM 2087 Various artists Our Folk Music Heritage [Trailer - yellow label] (1975)
Three butchers [R Bailey]; Docherty's reel [High Level Ranters]; Flowing tide [High Level Ranters]; Ower the water [B Dickson]; Dorrington lads [A Anderson]; Fiddler's Green [A Bain, M Whellans]; Skillet pot [T Lyons]; Shoemaker [High Level Ranters]; Rattling, roaring Willie [D Gaughan]; Friar's britches [D Gaighan]; Little Musgrave [N Jones]; Johnny Armstrong [C Ross]; Derwentwater's farewell [C Ross]; Ned of the hill [C Ross]; Valley of Tees [V Garbutt]; Bony birdie [R Fisher].
LER 2088 Bob Davenport, Rakes, Boldon Banjos Pal of My Cradle Days   [Rakes - Michael Plunkett, Paul Gross, Reg Hall; Boldon Banjos - Tom Ford, Norman Reid, Albert Glenwright, Bob Kane] [Trailer - yellow label] (1974)
Moving day; Twelve stone two; Around the world; Alexander's ragtime band; Durham clockmaker; Delilah; Road and the miles to Dundee; Robert E Lee; California here I come; Wheel the perambulator; Do you want your old lobby washed down?; If you knew Susie; Yes sir, that's my baby; How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm; William Brown; He's only the village postman; I don't work for a living; Dream; Kentucky waltz; Pal of my cradle days.
LER 2089 Peter Bellamy Tell it like it was [Trailer - red label] (1975)
Rambling Robin; All in a day; Parson's peaches; Ballad of Judas; Farewell to the land; Nostradamus; On board a '98; Ward the pirate; Courting too slow; Burning; Bold privateer; Fiddler's hill; Goodbye.
LER 2090 Boys of the Lough Second album   [Boys of the Lough - Aly Bain, Cathal McConnell, Robin Morton, Dave Richardson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1973)
Lerwick lasses reel; Scalloway lasses reel; Underhill reel; Galley watch reel; An Goirtin Eornan (Little stack of barley); Sally Munroe; Patsy Campbell reel; Gravel walk reel; Lough Erne; Gold ring jig; Halting march; Lovely Nancy; Merrily kiss the Quaker's wife slide; Padraic O'Keefe'sslide; Yow cam ta wir door yarmin'; Christmas Day ida mornin'; Lass with the bonny brown hair; Lowrie Tarrell reel; Mason's apron reel.
LER 2091 Nic Jones Noah's ark trap [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Wanton seed; Jackie Tar; Ten thousand miles; Golden glove; Indian lass; Miles Weatherhill; Isle of France; Crockery ware; Annachie Gordon.
LER 2092 Martyn Wyndham-Read Maypoles to mistletoe [with Geoff and Pennie Harris and Arky's Toast] [Trailer - yellow label] (1975)
Wait's carol [All]; Candlemas Eve [MW-R, G&PH]; April song [AT]; Birds in the spring [MW-R]; Jack in the green [G&PH]; Furry Day carol [All]; Whitsun dance [GH]; Moon to the sun [AT]; Oats and beans [MW-R, G&PH]; Arky's toast [AT]; Hare hunting [G&PH]; Jolly fellows who follow the plough [MW-R]; Pescod time [MW-R, G&PH]; Guy Fawkes [AT]; York Waites [G&PH]; Seven joys of Mary [MW-R, G&PH]; Rose of Sharon [All].
LER 2093 Muckram Wakes Muckram Wakes [Muckram Wakes - John Adams, Suzie Adams; Helen Watson, Roger Watson] [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Muckram Wakes; Duchess of Hamilton's rant; Bitter withy; William Taylor; T'owd brahn 'en; Two sisters; Black boy jig; Farmer's arms; Winster Wakes; Derby ram; Twenty pins; Cromford Mills; Stockinger; Peg of Derby; High Stenson the deserter; Owd Joe Biggin.
LER 2094 Roger Nicholson, Jake Walton, Andrew Cronshaw Times and traditions for dulcimer [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Mistress Winter's jumpe; Dowland's midnight; Mrs Whyte's nothing; Rolling of the stones; Planxty Power; O'Carolan's concerto; Follow the plough; Mr Sharp's fancy; Gypsy's wedding; Haste to the wedding; Almaine; Bogie's bonny Bell; Devil among the tailors; Donal Og; Si Bheag, Si Mor; Song of wandering Aengus; Nonesuch [revisited].
LER 2095 Cyril Tawney Down Among the Barley Straw - seduction songs from the Baring-Gould manuscripts   [Leader - yellow label] (1976)
Down among the barley straw; Young Rambleaway; Ragged beggarman; Squire and the fair maid; Hostess's daughter; A-nutting we will go; Blackbird in the bush; Strawberry fair; Cottage on the hill; Bold dragoon; Bold trooper; Miraculous hen; Barley rakings.
LER 2096 Tommy Dempsey & John Swift Green grow the laurel [Trailer - white test label, handwritten tracks] (1976)
Little beggarman; Walking in the dew; Dumb, dumb, dumb; Recruiting sergeant; Enniskillen Dragoon; Cunla dear; She moved through the fair; Green grow the laurel; Follow me down to Carlow; Blackwaterside; As I roved out; Paddy and the whale; Tri-coloured ribbon; Limerick rake.
LER 2097 Bill Caddick Sunny memories [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Sunny memories; Father's little black box; Military man; P-tarmigan and groaty Dick; Gibson girl; Sitting all alone; Cinderella; Tango Bleriot; Diabolo rag; All the King;s ladies; Writing of Tipperary; It's a long way to Tipperary.
LER 2098 Pete & Chris Coe Out of season out of rhyme [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
King's song; Young Benjie; Gilsland hornpipe; Linhope lope; Farewell to the brine; Bold Reynard waltz; Cunning old traitor; Bishop of Chester's jig; Two sisters; P & O polka; Proud Lady Margaret; When this old hat wasnew; Welcome cold November.
LER 2099 Martin Simpson Golden Vanity [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Beaulampkin; Snowdrop; Bitter withy; Cindy; Golden Vanity; Soldier's joy; Pretty Polly; Love minus zero / no limit; George Campbell; Gotta little home to go to; Louisiana, 1927.
LER 2100 Cilla Fisher & Artie Trazise Balcanquhal (1976)
LER 2101 Tony Rose On banks of green willow [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Twas on one April morning; Bold Archer; Fanny Blair; Polly Vaughan; Murdered servantman; Poor man's sorrows; Banks of green willow; Lord Rendal; Bonny hind; Sir William Gower; Fourteenth of July.
LER 2102 Vin Garbutt King Gooden [Trailer - yellow label] (1976)
Road to Youghal; Paddy row back; Pretty Meggy Morrissey; Green mossy banks of the Lea; O'Dwyer's hornpipe; Parkin Raine; King Gooden; Bantry girl's lament; Ballad of Cissy Lee; Hermit of Eskdaleside; Unknown reel; Imelda Rowland's reel; Doon reel; We may and might never meet here again.
LER 2103 Dick Gaughan Kist o' gold [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Earl of Errol; Granemore hare; Rigs o' Rye; Gipsy laddies; Lord Randal; Maggie Lauder; Cathaoir an Iarla' Banks of green willow; 51st Highland Division's farewell to Sicily; City of Savannah; Ril gan ainm; Raglan Road; Johnny miner; Balld of accounting.
LER 2104 Andrew Cronshaw Earthed In Cloud Valley [with Martin Simpson, Holly Tannen, Rick Kemp] [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Murdo MacKenzie of Torridon; Eleanor Plunkett; Prince William; Fanny Power; A stor a stor a ghra; Bellringing; Elsie Marley; Go from my window; Green mossy banks of the Lea; Christmas day in the morning; Glen Cottage; Dhu Hill; Midnight on the water; Pandeirada de Entrimo; Somewhere to stay; Cutty wren.
LER 2105 Various artists Fylde Acoustic [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Toye [J James]; Corranto [J James]; For Wendy - a nice buzz [P Berryman]; Mr Hitler, Mr Lanigan, Mr Tobin, sandancers extroidinaire [M Harding]; Ned of the hill [S Bracken]; Green fields of America [M Simpson]; Ninth of January [M Simpson]; Heights of Alma [N Jones, C Coe, P Coe]; Sweeney's polka [M Carthy]; Georgie [C Foster]; Bainish Sineidin [V Garbutt]; Black Jock [A Fisher, L Cowan]; Mr Southcote's pavan [J Renbourn, G Giltrap]; Mr Southcote's galliard [J Renbourn, G Giltrap]; English music [M Chapman].
LER 2106 Jean Redpath There were minstrels [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Dumbarton's drums; Rattlin' roarin' Willie; My love she's but a lassie yet; Robin Shure in hairst; West Virginia mine disaster; Gilderoy; Sheath and knife; Yellow Yorlin; Rob Roy; No, sir; Clerk Colven; Caroline of Edinburgh town; Davie and Jeannie.
107 Not issued
LER 2108 Peter Bond Its all right for some [Trailer - yellow label] (1977)
Baron and the busker; Africa '65; Category D; Some you win, some you lose; Letter from Sunderland; Birthday cake city; Ne coals off; Lark across the vapour trail; Let it be me on your mind; It's all right for some; Joe Peel; Joker.
109 Not issued
110 Not issued
LED 2111 Walter Pardon Our Side of the Baulk [Coloured gatefold with song lyrics] [Leader - orange label] (1977)
Pretty ploughboy; Up to the rigs; I'll beat the drum again; Down by the dark arches; Grace Darling; Generals all; I'll hang my harp on a willow tree; Wreck of the Ramillies; Jones' Ale; Old miser; Balaclava.
Lough

LOUGH 001CD Welcoming Paddy Home   Boys of the Lough   (1994)
Jig, Highland, Reels: When Sick is it Tea you Want? / Donegal Highland / Johnny McIljohns No 1 / Johnny McIljohns No 2. The Irish Washerwoman / Haste to the Wedding. Reels: Cape Breton Wedding Reel No 1 / Cape Breton Wedding Reel No 2 / Cape Breton Wedding Reel No 3; The Antrim Rose / Miss McGuiness / Brereton's. March, Jig: The Teelin March / Father


Shocked? Yes, you should be, although it's been published here before. Perhaps you'll all take note this time. And do something,

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:17 PM

That must have taken a while to type.

I took note the first time, and I think it is horrible that these people do not have the ability to buy back their contract. It is a real shame.

There must be hundreds of dollars at stake. Life really sucks.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 06:39 PM

I realize that this is thread drift and I only use it to make a point. Years ago I was involved with a charitable organization that decided to make a cookbook as a fund-raiser. The ladies of the organization contributed their favourite recipes and they typed and prepared the pages. I was asked to arrange for printing which I agreed to do. I submitted the draft to a printing/publishing firm with a request for a quote to have the book made up . We (the organization) would be paying all costs and our expectation would be that the copies would be ours to sell or do with as we pleased. I received back a contract with a lot of fine print,and being a bit of a Philadelphia lawyer, I read it before signing. To my dismay I found that I would be conveying all copyright on the book to them. I wrote back and asked them why they would include this and the answer was that it was standard in the industry. Needless to say that they did not get the printing contract, but I always wondered how many people have had their copyright stolen by fine print?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 07:04 PM

Also, I do wish to apologize for my cynical comment after Diane's posting. While I do belive that there needs to be some perspective on the issue that Diane drifted the thread towards, I do think that she should be commended for what she has been trying accomplish. Keeping the issue in front of people, even drifting threads, helps people learn about such issues.

I don't think that the money involved would really be significant, but that really isn't the point. What has happened is that a large group of naive British artists signed away their recordings during the late 60's and 70's.   They put their trust in a record label, and due to the law - they got screwed. Now they are being held accountable for not recognizing the potential harm that has been caused.

Yes, we all wish that there were "humanitarians" that would help get this music back to those who want it. Perhaps that would help avoid the piracy issues that are now taking people to court.

I've heard rumours that the issues that Diane speak of may be close to being resolved, and I would hope that it does - to everyones satisfaction.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 07:45 PM

Curiously there are provisions in the Bankruptcy Act 1907 that are still in force which protect an author who assigns rights to a publisher whose trustee in bankruptcy then sells the copyright - in effect the obligation to pay royalties runs with the copyright. But this has never applied to companies.

It is, incidentally, why the Small Faces wrote and recorded "All or Nothing".

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:29 PM

That wasn't really the situation. Those people weren't naive. there was absolutely no precedent to work out what to do, and Bill Leader's name was enormously prestigious.

The point (I hope) Diane is trying to make that the law should not simply about what is written down on bits of paper - there should be element of natural justice. Life doesn't suck. The law should get its head round the fact that hardly any of these records were sold and distributed in meaningful senses of the word.

The law isn't interested in our industry and it always sides with the assholes.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 08:48 PM

How I wish I'd had Ron Olesko's knowledge when I was a youngster starting out all those years ago. None of my contemporaries had it then either. Lucky Ron, to have so much wisdom to avoid being ripped off like we all were.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 09:17 PM

Oh, I've been ripped off too. Everyone makes mistake and does stupid things that we regret years later. I wish I could change a number of things and was more careful about decisions I made. Haven't you?

No one has that much knowledge,we only learn from the past. You can't change the past, but you can shape the future.

The wisest man was Satchel Paige. "Don't look back, the past might be gaining on you."

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: fumblefingers
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 10:37 PM

WFDU - Ron Olesko

I read this Washington Post article before the one posted here.

Download Uproar: Record Industry Goes After Personal Use

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:01 PM

That was the point Fumblefingers. The Post article was sloppy. Did you read the PDF file from the suit?   Read that and then decide. The issue is not about going after someone recording an MP3 file. Read on, and don't believe the first story you find.   It appears the writer from the Post did not do his homework.   Read!!!!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: freightdawg
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 11:10 PM

This may be, and probably is, a degree of thread drift, but what about live performances? Say I go to a senior citizens center and play some covers of my favorite artists. No money changes hands, because I just want to volunteer my time to brighten an hour of some folks' dreary lives.

Does that amount to "stealing" someone's intellectual property?

What about the granny that devotes an hour each Saturday to reading children's books at the local library? Is she stealing someone's intellectual property?

The way I see it, the word "fair" in "fair use" has completely disappeared. The sad thing is, most of the time the people that are being hurt are just ordinary folks who want to play and share music they love.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 03:09 AM

Does the concept of "intent" exist in England? You can't have fraud without intent. On the other hand, what is music? I would hazard, "entertainment" perhaps? Are you entertaining the old folks? Sure, but is it for financial gain? No. How do you assess damages? In the courts its all about money and if there was no exchange of money how can there be damages?

It gets really weird. Even churches are buying cheat book hymnals! They don't want to sing Amazing Grace or Rock of Ages and get sued for copyright infringement! I think Southern Celt and Big Mick are right! They are choking the living crap out of the industry. Careful what you hum fellows, someone may be listening!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 05:12 AM

Freightdawg, in theory you need permission from the copyright holder to perform their music. In the UK, this is managed by the Performing Rights Society, which licences premises where music is performed and distributes the money it receives to its members (composers and songwriters). As a performer, you don't need to do anything. I believe there are similar arrangements in place in other parts of the world.

The system is fairly crude, and there are complaints that it discriminates against the less well-known writers whose work isn't widely performed. But it's better than the alternative, which would mean contacting the copyright owner of every piece you perform for permission to play it, and negotiating a royalty with them.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 07:49 AM

Until the record companies produce CDs that don't mysteriously go j-j--j-j-j-j-jittery while on the shelf I'll continue to back up any new CD I purchase to hard disc!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 10:16 PM

Just thought I would throw into the mix, organizations like BMI, ASCAP, and the other Canadian one. These orgs protect only the big stars and basically shake down small venue owners and cafes, many which have open mics with struggling songwriters. Many of the venues/cafes can barely make ends meet, let alone pay crazy fees to have live music. Which, of course, results in them not having live music or giving the indie musician chance because BMI, ASCAP, etc. scare the bewilders out of these venues. Plus, they somehow have the US Congress and courts bamboozled that they're protecting the songwriter. Which they are, but only the superstar ones.

In the case of the referenced nursing home, it seems they'd be subject to BMI, ASCAP, etc. because they have live music and by providing such to their residents who they charge for their stay...probably would be viewed as making money from the live music by making their places more attractive to residents by providing entertainment comprised of songs by songwriters who are not getting to share in the nursing homes' profits if they don't pay BMI, ASCAP, etc. I'm not aware that nursing homes are excempt from BMI, ASCAP by their self regulated standards which the US government/courts won't challenge. Somehow, though, I believe government entities are exempt from BMI, ASCAP fees...so they can have all the live entertainment they want to promote themselves without paying the fees.

I'm by no means an expert on BMI, ASCAP...but they seem like quite a racket, although they make sense in terms of radio stations having to pay a songwriter fee for all the music they sell commercials to.
But, these people actually shake down anyone they find out has live music in them unless the songwriter is performing only their own music.

Just thought I'd add this into the discussion mix.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jan 08 - 11:34 PM

Just to mention that, here in the US, a gentleman named Moses Asch had a record company with literally hundreds of titles. He made sure that when he died, this catalog would go to an organization (Smithsonian Institute) that would always keep these recordings available to the public. Of course, he could have made some money by selling the catalog to someone else.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 03:58 AM

Maybe my eyes are tired or something. I thought both those links were to the same article.
Look: I don't think anyone really disagrees when someone says "Stealing is stealing". Turn about is not really fair play either.
That being said, I have no sympathy for the music industry at all. Like the drowning man, they are grasping at straws and that's just fine by me. They have outlived their usefulness and were never very nice when they ruled the roost.
Kids today have no concept of how it was for us as teenagers. Waiting for Top of the Pops every Thursday then rushing out on a Saturday to pay 10/- for whichever single took our fancy. With the exception of Penny Lane & Maggie May, the 'B' side was always rubbish. 30/- would buy an album with maybe two good songs on it. But we did it.
Folk artists were the Low Budget performers and like almost every artist, had little say in what was recorded.
Still, we were loyal fans.
The record companies ruled with an iron fist, made overnight successes out of many a young artist and kept them in chains. And that was the lucky ones.
Artists and fans alike have paid their dues.
We don't need recording companies any more!
Don't need records, tapes, CDs or DVDs. A complete waste of materials.
They are really hurting. They have lived high off the hog for decades and have been left behind by a technology over which they have no control. So we allow ourselves a little smirk as they go under.
Fair enough.
Just don't get sucked into the whirlpool as they go down.
There will be time enough for celebration when they're gone.
Amen!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:30 AM

6/8d for a single, Jim Lad...

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:23 AM

So who/where are the police that are coming to my door to arrest me for saving music on my pc?

sal

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:40 AM

NO ONE IS COMING TO YOUR DOOR TO ARREST ANYONE FOR SIMPLY COPYING MUSIC TO YOUR PC!!!!!!

Please do not read the Post story and assume that is the truth. It is full of holes and misinformation. Read the actual filing and see for yourself.   The issue was distribution of those files. If you make a copy for yourself - no one cares. If you make a copy to give to a friend or distribute via KaZaa, you are a "person of interest" to the record labels.

Please use common sense when reading these articles. This reporter did not do his homework. The story mentions nothing that is the actual filing, it was based on a statement from the defendant's lawyer, and the story sensationalizes one piece of misinformation. When Howell copied the song and placed it in a shared folder that could be accessed by anyone on the Internet, he did not make legal copy.

Don't allow yourself to get sucked up by sensastionalism. The Record companies have a lot of problems, and they operate with their head up their ass, but piracy effects ALL of us. We are in this screwed up situation largely because of it, and because the record labels do not have a clue.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 09:15 AM

What will, in my opinion, 'kill' the record industry in a positive way will be a continuation of the situation where artists and small labels do their own thing using new (and old) technology. Apart from when it comes to promoting either X-factor style light entertaintment or wringing the last drops of life out of the bloated corpse of corporate rock (so as to speak), I really can't see the point in the lumbering dinosaurs that are the major record labels continuing to exist. They've served their purpose, now it's time to move on. Ok, probably no-one making music is going to get mega-rich wthout them - but most don't anyway, and no-one, including musicians, really needs to make anything beyond a decent living... not that most even achieve that!

What will 'kill' the record industry in a negative way is the continued existence of and pandering to little toerags who think its ok to give away stuff that isn't theirs, whether it be via filesharing or music blogs. Just because the record industry is run by a conniving bunch of ne'er-do-wells, it doesn't give every Tom, Dick and Harry who fancies themselves as Robin Hood the carte blanche to jump on the bandwagon!

An example. A friend of mine's band did a rather good folk rock album (in the loosest sense of the word) last year. It then turned up as a free download on a blogsite (I'm not going to name it here, as I wouldn't want to give the blogger the publicity, but musicians who want to check their stuff isn't there can PM me for details) before he'd even finished paying for the recording of it! The blogger took it down when asked, but the point is, he shouldn't have put it up in the first place without asking. And it's not exactly going to encourage people to carry on making music if other people are intent on denying them the chance to even cover their costs... Finally, there were no major labels or striking of blows against 'the man' involved, as my friend's album came out on a relatively hand-to-mouth indie label. Just more bad manners, thoughtlessness and selfishness, I reckon.

Even of me going on with myself.

Cheers

Nigel

PS am I allowed to name the record and encourage you all to go out and buy it?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 09:17 AM

'Enough' not 'even' towards the end.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 10:00 AM

So the product is its own advertisement. "Hey Mike! Have you heard this Joe Banger fellow. He's got a sound I like. Hear listen!" Huh Oh! Can't do that!

We have a little quarter-mile race track in our town and there is a little hill with private residences which overlooks it. The race crowd calls it "Cheapskate Hill". They finally put up No Parking signs and the police patrol it, issuing citations. So the cheapskates park below now and walk up. "No Loitering" so they kept moving. Finally no one was allowed to pass the same point in a ten minute period. That seemed to do the trick but then the patrols became lax. The point is that there are always some bottom feeders who don't recognize borders. At some point it becomes a problem. Parasites can take down a host.

My original point was you have to get it out there in order to sell it. Honest Folk will give you your due. I belonged to a worthless union for years. They were supposed to be for the worker and they would pitch a bone every now and then and a lot of propaganda about how important they were to us. It seems corruption comes from both ends. Greed at the top, need at the bottom. I'm still perplexed.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:26 PM

There are several issues here that get confused and muddled. Often, some opinion about one is used to defend some principle in another.

   There are laws which attempt to define certain rights and restrict or allow certain behavior according to those right.
   Then, there are 'principles' that loosely suggest what the laws should be, and that often go beyond what the laws manage to accomplish.

There are, for instance, laws about jaywalking. Most people understand that they are not 'supposed' to cross certain roads except at designated, marked places...but these rules are VERY often ignored. And the authorities KNOW they will be ignored, and police who see jaywalking often ignore the offense. But, the law IS there so that it CAN be enforced when broken in an egregious manner, and to place blame or mitigate blame in case of a mishap.
   SOME of the copying, sharing and DRM rules in the music industry are similar.

Then, there are the 'laws' about which there are questions as to the fairness or sense OF the law.....as in the laws which allowed the recording companies to rip off artists for many years. This gets into the slippery debate over 'morality'.
(If *I* were in charge, the 'law' would be changed retroactively to dis-allow a producer from simply re-selling an artist's contract, and would require renegotiating of the contract with the artist or his heirs. Fat chance, huh?)

Finally, there is the issue of 'practicality'...both in law enforcement and what KIND of laws to write as the technology changes. We had 'laws' when analog tape-recording was about the only way to 'steal' music...but copies weren't usually as good then, and were transferred WAY more slowly and at LEAST required buying some tape! Now we have artists losing control of their product almost before they have it finished! Why is this important? Because for BIG artists, it means BIG money. Even IF the old style 'producer' or promoter gets removed from the loop, there is a lot of potential money that gets lost.

Several things can happen...musicians can scale back their notion of what they can expect to 'earn' from writing/performing. Or, the technological efforts can continue to encrypt, encode and restrict, digital 'property'. Or, new rules can be written which make it less tempting to 'steal'..(such as CD Baby and other 'fair' sales techniques). Or maybe some other still barely imagined possibilities.

It is clear that NO law can be written which covers all the possible issues, or which makes everyone happy. It is also clear that it is almost impossible to restrict copying & sharing of any desirable digital material. (even books were photocopied as soon as Xerox was available...now Google is pushing the limits of the laws in THAT medium!).

I suspect that my 1st idea will be a major outcome...that musicians and some other artists will ultimately scale back their expectations...except for those who can draw crowds for live shows. Sad? Unfortunate? Yes, I guess so. But even live shows can, and will be 'stolen' with fancy new technology, just as they were with cassette recorders under coats.
   It may ultimately be up to each individual artist or group to decide if and how they wish to protect their 'rights'...if they can even keep track of what those rights ARE in this Brave New World.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 12:31 PM

Showing your age, Richard.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 03:40 PM

"That must have taken a while to type."

cut and pasted from Here

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 04:58 PM

Just a question and this is a bit of thread creep but what about music in teh public domain for example the Kinston trio did a version of SAnty Anno. If I redistribute that sone (Their arrangement) I would be in violation but would I be if I did my own arrangement? Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: freightdawg
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 05:45 PM

Thanks, Bill D for a thoughtful post.

I've been thinking lately about how fair a library is. I mean, a book is purchased once, yet literally thousands can take it, read it, make notes from it, maybe even memorize it. Poor sucker that wrote the book only got royalties once. Loser.

It seems to me that if John Denver authorized Cherry Lane Music to produce a book of his songs, with music and guitar chords, that he and they would EXPECT people to buy it, and then actually USE it for its intended purpose: to learn how to play John Denver songs. What are we supposed to do? Sing it to ourselves in a sound proofed bathroom? Even inviting a few friends over for dinner and a sing around is, technically, in violation of copyright laws if we are not supposed to sing copyrighted materials.

Where does the law end? I appreciate Bill's discussion of laws that can be, but are not frequently, enforced. But the fact that they can be enforced makes it illegal, and to many people therefore immoral, to violate.

If the recording industry, and related industries, are on their death bed then hurrah and no tears from me. But the murkiness of the laws still confound the average schmuck like me that just wants to sing some songs and see a few smiles on some faces.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 05:53 PM


"That must have taken a while to type."

cut and pasted from Here

Fuck off "Guest: Molecatcher's Apprentice" (or to be more accurate, Stupid Sam.
The entire point of copy/pasting from the Musical Traditions discography is that it is not possible to bookmark individual pages.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:19 PM

Sorry Freigtdawg, your example of the John Denver book bears little relationship to the problem.   Buying the book does not give you permission to make a career as a John Denver impersonator.   Read the copyright and other restrictions in the beginning of most songbooks. Public performance is not implied in cases like that.

Of course, it is highly doubtful that the John Denver estate would go after Freightdawg for the $1.38 they would be owed from the 3 CD's that you managed to sell of the unauthorized use of the work.

There is a huge "sky is falling" mentality that is taking hold. The record companies have enough trouble on their hands - they aren't going after the little guy, no matter what the media tries to spin. The case in point (anyone remember the beginning of this thread - th reason for this season??) was about a person who was DISTRIBUTING the songs to a much larger group. THOSE are the people they need to stop.

If you simply wish to make a copy and give to your friend, it is sense of right and wrong at work.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 07:29 PM

You aren't going to kill the record industry.

The Suits Always Win.

The Suits can afford to buy the campaign contributions, meals, booze, drugs, whores, and catamites, to get Congress to pass whatever laws they need to keep the money coming in.

Please refer to the first line of the chorus of "Barret's Privateers."

Peter

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 08:00 PM

If we had more songs like "Barret's Privateers" the record industry would have gone under, years ago.




Sorry. I just hate that chorus.
Grin!
Jim

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 09:53 PM

The chorus in this thread seems to be "Fuck Off." I wonder why some people don't have seem to be able to carry on a discussion without resorting to phrases like that.
The level of animosity at Mudcat seems to be rising. I've had complaints abut this thread and others. Might it be possible to carry on a friendly discussion? I don't want to sound prudish, but if you use terms like "fuck off," it's really hard for people to feel like responding to you in a friendly way.

Sorry. I just hate that chorus.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: freightdawg
Date: 02 Jan 08 - 11:07 PM

My apologies Ron, I don't think I was accurate in what I was trying to say.

I am fully aware, and agree with, the idea that if I was to personally profit from my singing of a published work that I would owe the one who created and published the work. This is only fair and right. Personally I would be honored to be good enough to write a royalty check. It won't happen to me in this lifetime. If I was to write a book I would expect the same from those who might profit from quoting or using my book in a beneficial manner.

I am only wondering why, if the books are created to be useful in learning and performing the songs, is it therefore wrong to do so in a public (or even in a not so public) arena? There seems to be a legal double bind here - its okay to buy the book and learn from it, but wrong to perform what you've learned? I'm just speaking of charity events and sing arounds. If it is illegal to publically perform a piece of music in one setting, what suddenly makes it legal and acceptable in another?

I was never accused of being too smart, and I wouldn't be convicted even if I was.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 12:26 AM

Jeez, I perform other people's songs on stage all the time, and don't pay royalties. Some I learned from recordings, others I learned from songbooks.

However, when I RECORD those songs and sell them on a CD, that's a horse of a different kettle of fish.

Midchuck - catamite?

Good one - I haven't heard that word in years.

Seamus

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 01:41 AM

Jeepers Joe:
            Just to clarify. I didn't, don't, won't use that language.
            It wouldn't be lady like. Joe was referring to one of our   
            regular CUSStomers. Not me!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 01:43 AM

As a matter of fact.. I don't like the chorus of "Barret's Privateers" because of the language in it.
Ironical, eh?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Question Mark
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 01:57 AM

A musician doesn't pay royalties to a songwriter for performing a song live at a venue. The venue (in theory) pays the royalties by joining BMI, ASCAP, or the other similar organization, which in turn distributes the organization's fees to registered songwriters using a formula that no one knows. This in theory is how a songwriter, if he/she joins BMI, ASCAP, or the other receives royalties for public performances of his/her composition. The problem with this is: 1) BMI, ASCAP, etc. pay out very little 2) Keep a amount for themselves to run the organizations 3) Pay sales people commissions to sign up venues to join (and the sales people scare the bewilders out of small venues with live music with legal threats if they don't join, so they can get their commissions...causing venues to opt to not have live music and thus not join. 4) These organizations only really help superstar songwriters as anyone else ends up with pennies for their music being played. 5) There is no real way to track what songwriters' songs are really being played in these
venues.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 08:59 AM

I thought a bit about the idea of libraries and the way they let people read books they purchased and how that compares to music file sharing/copying. The two can't really be compared. Libraries are funded by taxpayers, therefore libraries purchase books on behalf of the local taxpayers and then share the books to read with the local taxpayers who collectively purchased the books. Plus, there are so many local libraries, the number of local libraries themselves become a significant major market for a bookselling publisher representing an author to target.

These situations do not seem comparable to the situations of file sharing music that is under discussion.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:31 AM

Save your "Father Joebro" platitudes, Joe. I used the term on someone who immediately dismissed my whole argument with his/her "high horse" comment, when in fact that person was guilty of the same thing i.e. not reading my comment. I answered that smartass comment with another. It is not important to me whether you liked the tone, as I didn't like the tone of the flip response.

But back to the discussion. I don't have a lick of a problem with the "Brave New World" way the prospect of the internet and file sharing present. In fact I love the fact that the artists are in charge of their product. What I do have a problem with is the idea that using that same "Brave New World" idea to justify getting something for nothing that you should have to compensate me for, unless of course I decide to give it to you (read that allow a free download) for my own reasons. It is not the concept of me controlling my own fate that is frightening, it is the concept that others feel they have the right to wrest from me the reward for my own work. That is simply swapping the tyranny of some faceless big business bureaucrat for the tyranny of the faceless folks that aren't driven by some higher purpose, rather their own greed at getting something for nothing.

If I choose to give it, fine. If I choose to sell it a track at a time, fine. But that is my choice, not yours.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:56 AM

I said many years ago that the record industry was going to kick itself in the ass with the help of digital technology.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:07 AM

It is not only the record companies, look at the movies. Everyone grumbles about paying $9 or more to go see a film, but piracy has cost dearly.

I know many people have the Robin Hood mentality and root for the pirates, but the reality is we all pay for it in the end. Sure the record companies were greedy, sure artists got screwed, but both sides seem to dig their feet in the sand and get ready for a battle instead of figuring out ways to help stop the bleeding.

I'm not sure why people think that a ride on the information highway is free - the Internet provides another way of commerce, and another way of piracy.

About the books, I was under the impression that if you perform a copyrighted arrangement, you pay for the rights to do so. If I borrowed the script for a Broadway play that has been published, would that give me the right to put it on stage at a local venue without paying for the rights to do so? I don't think so. What is the difference?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 10:09 AM

Going back to the library question - forget books, they now loan out CDs. (UK)
I have used this facility twice.
Once to see/listen to Garth Brooks to find out what the fuss was about. (still can't stand him & only listened once to each of 3 CDs).

Once to listen to Alan Jackson (very impressed & went & bought 3 Cds of his).

Nonetheless, the opportunity is there to borrow CDs, copy them & return at no cost to the borrower & no renumeration to the artist.(apart from the royalty fee on the original CD)

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Question Mark
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 11:52 AM

Again, in theory the library is funded and owned by taxpayers. Therefore, CD's like books are collectively owned and paid for by the taxpayers and the artist has benefited from their collective purchase from the library. This is just cooperative economics. The question only becomes then is the copying aspect for personal use.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM

"Going back to the library question - forget books..."

I'd rather not forget books if that's alright...after all that's what librairies are all about. Quite frankly I'd rather not borrow CD's from a library given the handling habits of many folk

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:36 PM

Copyright is what it says. "The right to copy." A library does not violate copyright with either books or recordings as long as they are lending a legal publishing and not a copy. Beyond copyright what you buy is usually yours to do with as you please, but some publishing companies may try to impose license agreements between them and the buyer. This has been tried by the industry with very limited success. If you take anything home and copy it you are probably in violation of copyright.
That being said the publishing and music industries have pressured governments (with some success) to change the common law definition to their favor in some jurisdictions.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM

I gave my CDs to the library in Margaree.
I really thought the big name record companies would follow suit but so far, no luck.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:28 PM

The record industry is killing itself. Most of the product for public consumption today
is less than good. It's generally overproduced, slapped together for commerical reasons,
touted by music business people who should be selling shoes, pandering to sex and violence that titilates the market, and here's the hard truth, the artist is not making as
much money as the business people who are exploiting his/her talent. The radio media (surprise! surprise!) is in collusion with these business sharks with their restricted playlists and censorship (Dixie Chicks come to mind).

The reason people don't want to pay the companies for their product is because generally,
their product sucks.

Only the high rollers in the music biz are making the money anyhow.

Who are the real thieves here?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 05:33 PM

Hi all. Back home and not "Guest" Slag anymore, thank you! I see potential for several directions offered here. And speaking of "offering", Joe, I couldn't agree with you more. Foul language accomplishes nothing but demonstrating a paucity of vocabulary or an inability to mount a sound argument or answer. Having said that I have to admit that that phrase and other equally blunt conversation-terminators come to my mind every now and then. I just choose to not use them for decorum's sake. We can all do better in the civility department.

And what about copyright? If I put "Copyright 2008" at the bottom of this post then it becomes copyrighted material??? Or does Mudcat claim the rights to all original material posted here? Maybe I should look at the rules again! Hmmmm?! And if my phraseology, wit and wisdom or foolishness and buffoonery are my own what right does Mudcat have to "delete" the same? If it is unacceptable to the 'Cat, then it should be returned to the member for revision, editing or sui-deletion (to coin a phrase). We almost all compose our posts on the cuff and Mudcat is kind enough to give us a listing of all our posts, thank you.

Well that is quite a drift and I apologize but it is tangential. I think I'll get a tiny little tattoo of a circled "C" and a, say, 2008, on my jaw line. Backoff pappa-ratsies! This mug is copyrighted! Paris Hilton could get one on some other body part then they'd have to pay her when she climbs out of the car!

What I was hinting at in my earlier post is that a true union of recording artist, FOR recording artists would place control where it belonged and where said artists could really take care of one another. Keep greed and power-lust out of the equation (somehow???) how sweet if the artists themselves could effect distribution, etc. Of course you'd have to resolve all your bickering disputes and general unhappiness among yourselves, but it can be done. Just an idea. But if someone should happen to pick it up and run with it, it would turn off the debate and put a positive direction on the question.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM

Good bit on NPR Talk of the Nation today pitting the author
of the story, who's standing behind it, against the president
of the RIAA, who's disputing it. Hear it here .

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:20 PM

A few years back I bought a Philips cd recorder. It would only record using "music cd's". I asked the fellow at the store about the music cd's and he told me it had something to do with the recording companies getting a certain amount of money everytime a music cd was sold. The premise was that they (the companies) figured you would be using the device to copy cd's and wanted to get their fingers into the pot. At least that was my take on what he was saying.

My main purpose in buying the recorder was to make cd's from my old lp's and cassette tapes. After having a few purchased cd's go belly up I started making back-up copies. I also did some recording of my band, etc. Seems all of that recording is illegal these days?

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Arnie Naiman
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:37 PM

I just made a new cd. I put quite a bit of money into quality of recording, mastering and artwork for the project. It's a project I've wanted to do for many years, and I'm happy to have completed it. I paid royalties to publishing companies of long gone dead musicians because I was legally obligated to do so. I know I'll make make the money back eventually, but I also know it'll take much more time than ever before. CD Sales pretty much suck a little worse every day. It must be getting pretty discouraging for some artists to continue investing in more recording projects or thinking that their recording profits might actually somehow substantially add to their livelihood. Times have changed.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Greg B
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 09:42 PM

But Arnie--- at least some of us have been saying to you that
your efforts to make yourself a microcosm of the recording
industry in the face of much better marketing and distribution
technology is a recipe for failure.

So why not develop a better business model?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Joe_F
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 11:31 PM

What a disappointment! I was hoping for actual advice.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: harpmolly
Date: 03 Jan 08 - 11:55 PM

Whew...that NPR clip is like a tennis match!

I have to admit the RIAA guy comes off as a bit more rational and levelheaded (though admittedly a little cheesed off), IMHO.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 09:09 AM

This thread seems to have drifted into a discussion on copyright, and the usual confusion this brings.

Almost any copy, whether as a backup, transfer from LP/cassette, ripped onto an MP3 player or whatever, is likely to be illegal. Will you get sued? Highly unlikely - what is the financial loss to the copyright owner? Only the cost of another CD or download which you should have bought instead, not worth picking up the phone to the lawyer over. But if you're going to start selling bootlegs, or making the files available to download, then they'll go for you.

The copyright on a songbook covers the printed arrangements. If you want to photocopy the sheet music, you need the publisher's permission. If you perform or record those songs, then you owe a separate royalty to the songwriter (or copyright owner), usually collected by one of the copyright agencies (PRS-MCPS in the UK) from fees paid by the venue, or prior to the album being issued.

If you like someone's music and want to put it on your blog or website to spread the word, that's still unlawful - you're giving away something that's not yours to give, even if your motives are good. You should link to their website instead. If you're determined to play their music on your site, you need their (or their record label's) permission, again usually handled by one of the copyright agencies who will gladly sell you a licence to do so.

Whether copying is morally wrong in all these circumstances is another matter. Copying a CD you've purchased onto your MP3 player? Not in my opinion. Copying an LP which isn't available on CD? Again, OK in my opinion. Copying an LP instead of buying the CD re-release? Not acceptable, the copyright owner is losing out. But these are my personal views, and don't alter the fact that all of these actions are breaches of copyright.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM

"Copying an LP instead of buying the CD re-release? Not acceptable"

What artist would ever object to one of his/her customers upgrading their album to CD?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Other than that, I pretty well agree with you.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

The older cd recorders require a "MUSIC CD". I understand that as far as recording quality they are the the same as any blank cd.   The "music cd's" are more expensive than the regular blank cds.

Anyone know where the extra money goes?   I was informed that it went to the recording industry. (that's what I was told by the salesman and have no idea if he knew what he was talking about.)

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 05:05 PM

You know, there's more than one "Record Industry". And it's pointless to lump, say, SONY with Folk-Legacy or Musical Traditions. Different orders of magnitude; different concerns. And different motives.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:04 AM

Socan collects royalties from all blank music CDs & Cassettes in Canada. Don't know where you're at though, Bob

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 02:42 AM

The fact remains, though, that the record industry was built upon people not being able to duplicate a record. No one owned equipment that could do that. When cassette recorders and players came into vogue, suddenly they were made with near identical copy capabilities, often incorporated into them. Strangely, the record industry in order to fight this, converted to issuing cassettes because people preferred their format out of convenience and their ability to duplicate. It seems to me, the record industry grappled with this and then the mindset of their industry seemed to become that was okay provided the copies were for personal use, only.

Then, with duplicating scaring the record industry, they changed their format to a higher quality CD and quit issuing cassettes. They also seemed to tolerate making cassettes of CD's because the quality was not the same, and we all know...annihilated the cassette format in terms of any new issues. No one owned equipment to duplicate CD's and the industry thought they had the problem solved. Which they did for quite awhile. But, then came easily obtainable CD replicating programs and then built in computer programs to burn and rip CD's. Then, digital home recording capability, lower prices, etc. etc. And, reasonably good quality to boot. And, easily obtainable, tradeable, downloadable, etc. And, now, MP3 or Wave files where a CD isn't even needed.

Perhaps, we should address what SHOULD the record industry be doing in view of all this to save itself. Or, how does one predict the industry will reformulate itself to once again turn it all into a business. I suspect, someone will figure out how. I suspect they are already putting it into action. Just look at the cash cow that Hollywood Records and Disney have at hand with their new stable of young performers using television, movies, concerts and You Tube and Google paying them royalties galore as they further make their music product more available (as they too profit from the ads they sell.) Oh, did I forget ringtones and accompanying related merchandising (books, fashion, souvenier keepsakes, special deluxe editions of DVD's, CD's.)

It is not really about the music industry being left behind. The music industry is now the entertainment and cultural industry. The ones left behind may very well be the ones who are thinking in terms of the old ways...ie. "hey, I can download a song for free that a record company already sold to me three times over in a record, cassette, and CD format. Has the world gone mad?" Fact is, we're no longer their target audience and while we're busy debating the music industry as we knew it as the record industry throws intellectual property ethics nonsense at us, it already knows that enough to keep us occupied and out of their hair as they market to their true target buying audience (which is not us), but the new multi-media consumer. Will all the archive music survive, yes? Will folk music survive? Sure. Will we occasionally buy CD's at a Starbucks...sure. Will the marketing model that Disney (aka: Disney/ABC), Hollywood Records, concert promoters, YouTube, and Google have struck gold upon become the music industry's wave of the future. Gotta think so. We're old hat to 'em, just like Mitch Miller and Lawrence Welk went out of vogue with the Beatles and the record industry didn't care. If you're not aware of the music phenomena that is going on with Disney, Hollywood Records, concerts, etc. right now then you should look into it. At this point, the biggest mania craze since Elvis, John, Paul, George, Ringo, and Michael Jackson is going on...and it isn't hip hop rap or Britney. The only question is, as it was back then, is will it last?

BTW, the new Disney stars that my 13 year old daughter has introduced me to are quite good. And, their record companies don't care if their fans take their music and television clips and make their own videos with their own storylines on Windows Movie Maker and post 'em on YouTube. Those things only further build their fan base as YouTube pays them royalties.

Its a new day in the multi-media entertainment industry. And, we're yesterday.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM

Jim Lad, you replied to my comment with:

"What artist would ever object to one of his/her customers upgrading their album to CD?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Other than that, I pretty well agree with you."

No doubt many artists would be relaxed about this - others wouldn't, and in particular I suspect their record labels wouldn't.

I see a difference between this and copying a CD you've bought onto another CD to listen to in the car, or onto an MP3 player. With the latter, the artist isn't losing out, because you wouldn't buy additional CDs or pay to download tracks (at least I wouldn't) if you couldn't copy them - it's just a matter of putting music you've paid for into a convenient format.

Where the artist has made a new release on CD, I think it's a different matter, and the artist is entitled to be pissed off if you copy the LP rather than pay to upgrade. Perhaps "unacceptable" was a bit strong - "morally dubious" at least. Of course, everyone does it (I don't claim to be a saint!) but I think we're on dodgy ground.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 03:24 PM

Guest, you refer to Disney stars being relaxed about being posted on Youtube, but it's obvious why from your own post - Youtube pays them royalties.

There can be no issue with copying, downloading etc if the proper permissions have been obtained and royalties have been paid. The problems arise where these are ignored.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Celtaddict
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 04:36 PM

Howard Jones: I do not understand why it is unfair to an artist (or 'morally dubious') if I have purchased their recording in LP or cassette format, and later make a CD of it for my own use? This does not seem any more unfair than making a copy for use in my car, to prevent harm to the original which lives in my house. If I have purchased an item of clothing, and lose weight, I do not find any fault in altering it to fit rather than buying a new one. I do understand that the artist may have incurred additional expense in re-mastering and re-releasing, but my choosing not to invest in this new version does not seem to me different from choosing not to invest in the original recording in the first place, a personal decision and not a moral issue.
I was fascinated by the consideration of the library, in purchasing a single book for many in a community to read; we are active library users and I had never thought about the copyright manifestations.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 05:16 PM

This link is for Capt'n Bob--Audio Home Recording Act

It explains, in protracted detail, the law that enabled the royalties, the reasons that it was implemented and its implications, the formula for the distribution of the royalties, and the peculiar fact that, given all of this, not that much money has either been collected or distributed--

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Question Mark
Date: 07 Jan 08 - 07:16 PM

Regarding, Disney stars not being upset about fans copying their stuff because YouTube pays them royalties...exactly.

The fan/consumer is happy. The record company is happy. YouTube is happy (as they sell their ad space probably based on consumer visits to YouTube.

But, that's only a piece of the total entertainment-media which also combines that the video clips are from Disney TV shows, the music is from Disney labels, the albums/DVD's are from Disney, they music is played on Radio Disney, the concerts are promoted by Disney, Ticketmaster sells tons of tickets and makes money, the Disney artists are well paid, the songs are published by Disney, Disney is involved in merchandising, the stars appear on Disney's ABC shows, etc. etc. etc. Billboard's number one selling albums.

Tons of money in this industry in this multi-media marketing format model for all. The music industry is flourishing with this new model. While ironically we sit and talk about how the music industry is being killed...because of all this new fangled stuff, thinking with blinder on in terms of the former music industry not the current multi-media entertainment industry who has already figured out how it can work well with the actual music/entertainment/computer/video/downloads/advertising/artist/songwriting/publishing/magazine/even theme park components.   It has created fan frenzy the size of Elvis/Beatle/Jackson mania with a fan base in it for the long run as well as a renewable fan base.

So yep, the fact YouTube pays Disney so they in turn get paid by advertisers. That's part of the new marketing model in the business. Fans downloading music and videos and sharing them with other friends in countless new interpretations = fan frenzy for more product. That's exactly the point I was making. All are happy...great product, great money, great fans. The new model works. The former music industry we're talking about is a sideshow.

QM

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 10:54 AM

Celtaddict,

I think there is a difference between simply making a copy to other formats for your own convenience, and "upgrading" from an obsolete format to a better version eg LP or cassette to CD. But I accept the difference is a fine one, and I guess it is a matter for your own conscience. Legally, I don't think you have a leg to stand on!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Midchuck
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:18 AM

I think there is a difference between simply making a copy to other formats for your own convenience, and "upgrading" from an obsolete format to a better version eg LP or cassette to CD.

I don't think there really is. When you digitalize a vinyl or cassette recording, you get it exactly - complete with scratches on the vinyl, etc. The recording doesn't become "CD-quality" by magic.

Granted, there are all kinds of editing software to remove defects in old recordings, but they can't insert quality that wasn't there in the first place.

I tend to buy CDs of my favorite old vinyl recordings when they become available, not for ethical reasons so much as because you get a better product, more cheaply in the long run (factoring in the value of your own time), by doing so, than by copying to a WAV file and editing the result. Unless you're an expert audio engineer. I ain't.

Peter.

(I do question whether anyone has an ethical leg to stand on, who says "We aren't going to reissue this particular album on CD, but we're going to sue you if you copy your old vinyl to CD." If it isn't available, who's being deprived of a profit?)

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 01:09 PM

Here's and interesting potential development in UK law -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7176538.stm

Ian

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: harpmolly
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 11:12 PM

Ian,

Which brought me to this article...which seems just about the most ridiculous thing ever. Now, I don't live in the UK, but the US can't be far behind...and this does seem to echo the RIAA debate.

So if it IS technically illegal to rip your own legally purchased CDs to your computer and transfer them to mp3 players, and/or make compilations for *personal use only* (which again seems almost hallucinatory in its idiocy), how is it that iPods and Zunes are even allowed to proliferate? Is the loophole that you should really only be using/transferring music you've bought/downloaded from the iTunes store, etc.? In what bloody universe does this make sense? *rolling eyes* And why isn't iTunes held responsible for their flagrant encouragement of illegal conduct? They are advertising the fact that you can rip CDs to your computer, burn playlists to disc, etc. I'm confused that they haven't been held responsible for that, if indeed it is even technically illegal.

I know, I know, it's piracy and file sharing that are the big concern here, but if they're going to state that the above "fair use" practices are actually illegal, I'd be curious as to the answer to these questions.

Molly

P.S. Sigh. Ah, innocence. I've always enjoyed the experience of making a mixed CD for a friend, knowing that I was actually helping the artist by introducing my friends to their music (my personal rule of thumb is never to put more than two songs by the same artist on one CD). I myself have bought dozens of CDs after being introduced to the music by a friend's mix. Before the iTunes era this made sense, but now that every song is individually available for sale, I suppose I've lost my warm fuzzy high moral ground. Hmph...

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jan 08 - 10:11 PM

Patrick Sky's opinion of the music biz from Amazon:

Patrick Sky speaks, Sep 12 2002
For those of you interested I want you to know that I recorded this album (Songs That Made America Famous) over 30 years ago and in spite of selling thousands, I have never received a penny in royalties. I wish to thank all of my fans that have enjoyed the record over the years. If you decide to purchase it I want you to enjoy it.

However I want you to know that the recording industry are a bunch a of criminals and have been stealing from the artists for a hundred years. This record is a fine example and is the rule and not the exception. This is why I support "Free" download music because, regardless of how much the recording industry complains, they get 99.9% of the money and the artist never gets a fair shake.

All the best,
Patrick Sky
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: reggie miles
Date: 14 Jan 08 - 05:12 PM

I have a friend who operated a small restaurant and was featuring live music, including my talents. Back in the 70s he had performed with some very well known big name rock bands. One day the performer's rights thugs came by to ask him to pay up or get sued. My friend had a great lawyer. So, he knew he could counter sue and win big because he had received nothing, zero, zip, from those organizations in the way of royalties. He barked back at the thug, "You're gonna sue me for thousands of dollars?! I'm gonna sue you for thousands of dollars! I've never received a single royalty check." We continued to play music there without a problem. Perhaps more cafe owners should stand up to these threats as he did instead of being bullied.

This is just another example of the way the big time industry has taken advantage their artists, even big time industry artists, and not compensated them. Yes, it could have been contracted that way and therefore legal for them to do so. I wasn't there when the papers were signed. Perhaps my friend signed away his rights and didn't realize it. But given that he threatened to counter sue for not having received anything makes me think that he knew that he had a case.

They never came back. Perhaps they felt as though they had met someone who was more than their match. A lot of lawyerly posturing is about who can make the biggest threats and have the evidence to back them up.

Regarding the topic of bootlegging, the Grateful Dead allowed their fans to share their music in this way. This was one of the ways that they were able to gain such attention to their music. It worked for them.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 04:26 PM

IN the end suits or no, music will be passed orally and technologically because that has been the nature of music and musicians since time immemorial, Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 04:46 PM

The last three posts show how silly an argument can get with folks. So Pat, with great respect for you and your accomplishments, you support giving away our music even though we have between $2,000 and $10,000 into its production? And you support this because someone else is ripping you off so we should all allow ourselves to be ripped off?

Reggie, yours is a perfect example of demagoguery. For every story you tell of the "thugs", I can probably come up with another that shows where they caused someone to be paid. I don't seriously think they are angels, but how about coming up with facts instead of this junk? How would you resolve the issue of artists being paid? Do you think it is just fine to cheat the artists out of the just compensation they deserve by ripping something that you legally should be paying for? Do you think you have the moral rights to the fruits of my labor? Or are you just defending the right to copy my property and give it away to as many people as you want?

Irish Sergeant, yours is the most shallow of the three posts. It adds nothing to the conversation. I really don't mean that to be as nasty as it sounds, but what did that add to all this? It is stating the obvious.

I wish that folks would contribute to the solutions instead of defending the indefensible. Tell us how you would protect folks like myself, and others, who would like to cover the production costs and make a fair compensation for the sale of the music we spend dollars and time producting.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 04:57 PM

A problem the recording industry has had to face and they have no solution for is that of 'song theft'. Problem is that there have been no big cases (lawsuits) wherein people have been nailed to the wall for the misappropriation of material. The writers who write miss their cut, the singers who sing miss theirs. So do the companies. That said, ever since the 1970s I have had no love for the BIG guys in the business. Outrageous prices and the profits did NOT filter down to the artists or writers. The only people who have been honest in the business have been radio stations (which pay their share of royalties for songs they air. And guess what? Yep, even the lowly songwriters receive their share (provided they have registered the material with a performing rights agency).

Big companies tried to 'manage' the direction of music, and really they did. Public opinion isn't really. It is manufactured and guided. The companies that gave us some garbage music as hits created their own destiny. And if they fall as a result I have no sympathy for them. My one worry is the state of music itself. If what is needed is an 'underground' record industry then that's what is needed. A day when the directors of record companies can no longer destroy careers by 'suggesting' songs be banned or artists toe the line or disappear on their recording studio floors.

Music belongs to people, not companies. It's time people took their music back.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:11 PM

At least my buddy Bruce makes a cogent point. I don't have a problem with the new technologies and their potential to put the control of the product back where it belongs, which is in the hands of the artists. I don't have a problem with the idea of new technologies putting the control of what is marketable back in the hands of the consumers. My ability to sell my product should be based on putting out a product that speaks to folks and causes them to want to buy it. This P2P stuff can be very valuable for that, and for selling tracks one by one. But I strongly object to the type of free, unrestricted stuff that allows folks to rip me off. And I am appalled at the attempts by folks to justify their theft. If I allow the download of free tracks as a sales tool, that is my business. If you take my product and make copies for others, or make it available for unauthorized download on a public site, then you and the site owners should be liable to me for any unauthorized downloads that occur.

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

Friggin' A, Mick. Friggin' A.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: reggie miles
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 12:13 AM

Yes, of course. I agree. And because so many sites and software companies fear being liable they have some very elaborate lawyerly stuff that one must agree with before getting involved with their particular offerings. Even so, the sheer numbers of those joining such sites and using various software products make it nearly impossible at this time to be able to police it all. It sounds bad because it is. The solution sounds like a software fix that limits such unauthorized usage but I'm not a software engineer. Nor am I a lawyer. So, I'm in the same boat your are.

Getting ripped off in the way you describe isn't pleasant and for the record, I do not agree with those that feel that just because they can do it and get away with it, that they have the green light to go ahead and do it. It just isn't right.

In my brief looking about in this big cyber world I've seen many sites that actively do not support the kind of thievery you are concerned about but they also have no means to actively enforce that stand. It is largely an honor system. Just one look at the number and variety of nasty bugs that are being blocked by my spam filter alone and I know that I'm outnumbered and surrounded. We do need help, all the help we can get.

When I've encountered those who steal in the real world, when I've looked them in the face while removing my possesions from their pockets, after they've stared straight into my eyes and told me that they did not take them, I realize that I am looking at someone who is totally foreign to me and everything I believe. It's as though they are from another planet altogether. I don't have the capacity to understand why they do what they do.

One recent expose points out that one reason that people continue to steal via the web is because the web is such that it makes it easy for them to do so and then easily cover their tracks. I couldn't easily count how many times that I've been notified via some spam that I've won the International Lottery. The word has been out for some time now and the scams are abundant. It's a lot like the depictions of the wild west frontiers of old but multiplied on a much more massive scale.

It's hard to calculate the individual acts of shenanigans. Even if collectively they add up to huge numbers lost, who has the resources to talley them and then counter such an enslaught? The laws of the land are just beginning to realize that they hold little weight in the cyber world and are only now waking up to the fact all new restrictions are needed to combat and prevent cyber crime.

Having such a small footprint in this whole experience, I'm not sure that I can offer solutions to make right the many wrongs out there in the mess we're discussing. Like so many others on the web I grope blindly for direction with the many questions that I face each time I get involved with offering my music online and find few answers.

Mick, are you concerned because you've already had someone steal your work? I hope you don't feel that I was making light of that by my comments.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 01:19 AM

A rip off is never right. Can we learn anything from the print industry? Strict rules against plagiarism (pirating). Limited use within academia (op. cit., etc.). Vigorous prosecution and a nasty taste of shame upon the violators. More, much more control by the author. It's not perfect but it does seem to me that the printed word has a much better time of it.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:02 AM

In quoting the point made by Southern Celt originating this thread,
"When all is said and done, the lawyers are the only ones that'll come out ahead and happy with this", this still rings true!
I and am sure most here do not want to see the artist or songwriter being ripped off. The unfortunate truth is that it is inherent in a corrupt system and the most powerful players can afford to play the legal game to their advantage. The little guy simply can not!
In quoting Pat Sky: "I want you to know that the recording industry are a bunch a of criminals and have been stealing from the artists for a hundred years. This record is a fine example and is the rule and not the exception. This is why I support "Free" download music because, regardless of how much the recording industry complains, they get 99.9% of the money and the artist never gets a fair shake." I guess an inside viewpoint has merit. His Green Linnet was a label that I would purchase with a feeling that it was an exception to the rule, although from posts that I read on Mudcat I wonder about its later life? Borealis is also an exception and I am sure that there are many others that treat the little guy fairly. Stompin Tom started the Boot label to prevent rip offs as well but I am unsure of it's status now. That being said the quest for a solution is not easy. One that I strongly advocate is that copyright ownership remain with the author/artist and only usage rights be conveyed to others with a sunset of about 5 years. Of course that will never happen because it is not in the interest of the industry and they have the lawyers.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 09:24 AM

Given the technology, the speed with which it is developing, and the sheer ease of copying and sending music files, I don't know what the solution could be. I like to listen to CDs on my computer, and for some reason the program immediately starts 'ripping' them to my hard drive, whether I want the songs there or not! But I will say that I think that being able to download single songs for a reasonable fee, usually around $1.00, is a wonderful thing and may encourage people to 'take the high road'. Lots of times I'm only interested in one or two songs on a CD, I really balked at spending $15.00 for the entire album. Now I can pay $.99 per song and make up my own compilation albums - and I love it! The ability to buy individual songs at a reasonable price may at least remove some of the temptation to 'bootleg' music. I am assuming, of course, that if I pay the $.99, and then download the song and burn it to a CD so I can listen to it in the car - it is legal.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Mick: You're right my post was shallow and stated the obvious I believe artist should be protected but I don't have a solution for the problem and I'm not certain anyone else does after reading this thread. Perhaps there isn't a solution that will work for everyone. So maybe my post didn't add to the conversation but what did the posts add to the conversation where people are telling each other to fuck off?
Is it possible to make CDs where they can't be ripped on to computers? How do you keep people from downloading tunes gratis. (By the way, I take no umbrage at your comment as I state above you're absolutely right.) Do we start covert surveilence on computers to see if people are illegally down loading music? Mary in the post above makes a point. My Dell does the same thing If I put a CD in , It begins ripping it to the computer Thuis issue doesn't only affect musicians If you can "Rip" Music this easy, you can printout online books etc. Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

OK, Neil. I accept the criticism for the language I used. But not the sentiment. It was a bad day, and I didn't like the dismissive "high horse" comment, which indicated a complete lack of comprehension as to the arguments I put forth. I stand duly and correctly chastised for my use of foul language and apologize for it. As to the intent of my comment, minus the offending language, I stand by it for the reasons stated subsequently.

Back to the issue. I don't agree that ripping CD's for one's personal use, CD's that one has paid for, constitutes any sort of illegal or immoral use. I think I pointed out that I disagree with the industry and folks who think it is. That is a perfectly legitimate use. I also think that the way of the future is downloading, often a tune at a time, and that CD's are going to wane in popularity. I am OK with all of that. As long as the creators of the music can legitimately control their product, this technology may finally resolve one of the longstanding evils of the business of producing music for sale. But if steps are not taken to make sure that there is a clear line between theft and legitimate use, artists will simply have swapped one set of thieves (labels) for another set (folks that rip without paying for it).

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM

Actually Mick, I wasn't thinking of you when I made my point.Your language is usually pretty polite. There were some others who bandied the word about pretty freely and as I stated in my last post you're right in what you said about my post. In my defense, I should have stayed out of the post while working on being ill.
We are of a mind here on the issue It has implications for everyone in the creative arts and it is something that needs to be addressed. Thank you for the apology though it wasn't needed. It is appreciated. Kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 02:32 PM

I checked with some pretty good computer people about the idea of encryption for CDs, thus making downloads inpossible without the key. The thought was to give people who purchased a download the ability to download once and that's that. But, what happens after? Someone could burn it and make copies, etc, and it's back to square one.

I recall bak in the day being asked what I did for a living. (I was then paid a salary to create songs). So, I'd say, "I'm a songwriter." Most folks would then ask, "Oh. But do you work for a living?"

The same people who would not think of getting a plumber, electrician or doctor to work for free sometimes DO ecpect songwriters to work for free. Perceptions . . . .

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 03:04 PM

Peace: I'm a writer and I get that one all the time. and people try to stiff you on the cost of a job too. I will say most of my clients are very good about paying but i had one who stiffed me the cost of the work I did for him adn You are absolutely right about the perception. Neil

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 03:19 PM

I hear that, Neil.

I'd like to say that songs just 'appear' and that I can write one in a few hours. (I have once or twice, but they were the exception, not the rule.) The last song I wrote that I am completely happy with from start to finish took me three weeks of about five hours per day with the guitar. Probably took me about 100 hours (I'm a slow writer). It had a new kinda rhyme scheme and I wanted the melody to be just so because it was at the time the best thing I'd ever done, etc. It ain't all just fun and games. But then I know you know what I mean. There are times it just flows, but then there are other times it is harder work than putting in a house foundation.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: reggie miles
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 06:33 PM

There are certainly lots of fans of the music that we play that wouldn't dream of taking advantage of us. They know that we make our livelihoods via our music. I've tried to encourage some who have had an interest in my music to simply download some of it for free via the web because I've had some of it available online for that purpose. I've been surprised to have some instead insist on purchasing a recording, even going so far as to offer me more than I was asking for it. Thank you rabid fanage!

I'm also certain that there are those that represent the opposite opinion regarding this subject but my focus has been to actively spend much of my time finding those that might support what I do. My particular musical niche seems small and obscure. I've had no real concern about anyone's interest in reaping rewards that might be due via my efforts, but perhaps I'm simply ignorant of the dangers out there.

I've not been encouraged by some of the stories that I've heard on this subject. Is there any solution? I suspect that unless you've got a good lawyer, or team of them, and deep pockets, for now, we may have to chalk this up as the price of doing business.

As a minor player in this game I suspect that the damages that I might suffer are too small to be worth the effort of trying to recoup them. So, it simply becomes a matter of choosing your fights. Even if the rewards are worthy of the effort to fight for them you still have to have the means to do so.

I've had my art stolen from me on several occasions. I could take the experience as a backhanded compliment given that someone desired something that I created so much, but it's never really a nice feeling to have that happen, especially, as in this discussion, when the thieves profit from the the theft.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:40 PM

"I wish that folks would contribute to the solutions instead of defending the indefensible. Tell us how you would protect folks like myself, and others, who would like to cover the production costs and make a fair compensation for the sale of the music we spend dollars and time producting"
Mick

From what I've been reading here about some of the bigger record companies, it seems the best way to protect artists is by putting some of the energy currently being employed in chasing copyright infringers, into getting the big record companies to cough up their fair dues and pay the artists a fair cut. I remember reading elsewhere about how artists like Son House and Robert Wilkins might get paid a once-off 20 dollar fee for a recording while the record company would go on to make hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then again when you think how much it costs the big companies to make a CD (about a dollar, including the royalties paid to the artist) and what they sell them to the public for (about 15 times that or more) you begin to feel the only ones who've been ripping everyone off are the big companies. I know that's over simplifying it a bit, but....

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:42 PM

I know that doesn't really answer your question Mick, as you seem to be indie produced or self-produced

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 08:08 PM

It's yours for a song!

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:19 PM

Fair enough, Nick. But one thing I would point out is that I continually here about what it costs the big operators to make a CD, but I have yet to see a credible cite on that info. Second, the cost of production is but one part of what it takes them to bring it to market, distribution and promotion being another. Also, here in the States, the "price it at what the market will bear" principle is alive and well. It is, after all, a capitalist economy. Lest anyone should misunderstand, I am not defending the "big boys" (how come we never call them "the big girls" .... chuckle), but I would like to know from a credible source what the real number is.

And having said all that, where does that leave smaller artists such as inhabit The Mudcat? I know that my first CD cost me a little over $10,000 to produce. The first run was 1000 CD's. By the time you factor in promo copies to promoters, radio shows, etc., you have to get $11.00 +, and that doesn't compensate the artist for the time they spend in the studio. We figured that we really weren't going to make any money on the CD until we got in the second run, and that pretty well was the case. So when we sell a CD for $15.00, we pretty well have to, in order to put food on the table. I know that the low volume dealers like Folk Legacy and Camsco are in the same kind of boat. They operate based on love of the music more than profit motive even though they are paying the bills (barely) at $15.00 a copy. This is why it is so important, in my mind, to get a handle on controlling downloading now. And it is doubly important to make sure everyone understands that this is theft, and it is NOT harmless. I think the attitude really bothers me most. Technology can fix the ability to control the downloading, but getting folks to understand that they don't have the right to steal my intellectual property, and that there is a cost to me when you do, is the real battle.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:29 PM

RIAA Declares Using Brain to Remember Songs is Criminal Copyright Infringement
by Mike Adams December 31, 2007

On the heels of the RIAA's recent decision to criminalize consumers who rip songs from albums they've purchased to their computers
(or iPods), the association has now gone one step further and declared that "remembering songs" using your brain is criminal
copyright infringement. "The brain is a recording device," explained RIAA president Cary Sherman. "The act of listening is an
unauthorized act of copying music to that recording device, and the act of recalling or remembering a song is unauthorized
playback."

The RIAA also said it would begin sending letters to tens of millions of consumers thought to be illegally remembering songs,
threatening them with lawsuits if they don't settle with the RIAA by paying monetary damages. "We will aggressively pursue all
copyright infringement in order to protect our industry," said Sherman.

In order to avoid engaging in unauthorized copyright infringement, consumers will now be required to immediately forget everything
they've just heard -- a skill already mastered by U.S. President George Bush. To aid in these memory wiping efforts, the RIAA is
teaming up with Big Pharma to include free psychotropic prescription drugs with the purchase of new music albums. Consumers are
advised to swallow the pills before listening to the music. The pills -- similar to the amphetamines now prescribed for ADHD --
block normal cognitive function, allowing consumers to enjoy the music in a more detached state without the risk of accidentally
remembering any songs (and thereby violating copyright law).

Consumers caught humming their favorite songs will be charged with a more serious crime: The public performance of a copyrighted
song, for which the fines can reach over $250,000 per incident. "Humming, singing and whistling songs will not be tolerated," said
Sherman. "Only listening and forgetting songs is allowed."

Consumers attempting to circumvent the RIAA's new memory-wiping technology by actually remembering songs will be charged with
felony crimes under provisions of the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act). The Act, passed in 1998, makes it a felony crime to
circumvent copyright protection technologies. The RIAA's position is that consumers who actually use their brains while listening
to music are violating the DMCA. "We would prefer that consumers stop using their brains altogether," said Sherman.

With this decision, the RIAA now considers approximately 72% of the adult U.S. population to be criminals. Putting them all in
prison for copyright infringement would cost U.S. taxpayers an estimated $683 billion per year -- an amount that would have to be
shouldered by the remaining 28% who are not imprisoned. The RIAA believes it could cover the $683 billion tab through royalties on
music sales. The problem with that? The 28% remaining adults not in prison don't buy music albums. That means album sales would
plummet to nearly zero, and the U.S. government (which is already deep in debt) would have to borrow money to pay for all the
prisons. And where would the borrowed money come from? China, of course: The country where music albums are openly pirated and sold
for monetary gain.

When asked whether he really wants 72% of the U.S. population to be imprisoned for ripping music CDs to their own brains, RIAA
president Sherman shot back, "You don't support criminal behavior do you? Every person who illegally remembers a song is a
criminal. We can't have criminal running free on the streets of America. It's an issue of national security."
_______________
NOTE: This is a satire report on the RIAA. That means it's written as fictional humor. It does not yet represent the actual
position of the RIAA, although from the way things are going, the association may soon adopt it. Permission is granted to make
copies of this story, redistribute it, post it and e-mail it (please provide proper credit and URL) as long as you do not actually
remember it because copying to your brain is now strictly prohibited. Any attempts to circumvent the memory-based copyright
restrictions on this article will result in your brain imploding, causing such an extreme loss of cognitive function that your only
hope for any future career will be running for public office.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: harpmolly
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:05 PM

ROFL!! :D Brilliant!

OK, I really did log onto Mudcat for work-related purposes (if anyone's reading over my shoulder).

P.S. Mick...the fact that I found the above article hilarious certainly doesn't diminish my respect for, and agreement with, your position. I certainly don't condone the indiscriminate copying and/or distribution of anyone's copyrighted material. :)

Molly

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

Surely we with early onset senile dementia or Alzheimer's are naturally exempt from, a, from whatever you were going on about. Surely, uh, Shirley, what did you say I was doing here....?

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:52 PM

Mick--and others--

I'm curious. What were your motives in making a CD? For a performer, I believe that the main values of a CD are as a supplement to gig income, and as a promotional tool. It's very difficult for me to see how the vast majority of folks that make CDs will make enough money from them to justify the labor and cash outlay involved.

I know why I deal in CDs--but then there are many who question my sanity.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,HOUSE
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:41 PM

Below is a link to the most accurate, well thought out, and brilliant blog about the future of the music industry that I have ever read.

http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/when-pigs-fly-death-of-oink-birth-of.html

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 06:12 PM

Wow this thread has been going for ages. I haven't read it all but I have to say I'm still with Big Mick; stealing is stealing.

Big music companies may eventually die, and I'm sure they are ruthless and everything that goes with it, but I don't think this gives us the right to steal something that isn't ours.

If I think drinking in the local boozer is too expensive I don't order the pint. I don't drink it and then say I'm not going to pay for it. You can say its different, but it isn't. Copyright law is just as valid as any other form of ownership.

The best modern day example is probably Tesco's, 12.5% of the TOTAL UK high street market, and I'm sure they are as cutthroat as any music company. But because all of their products are tangible and you can hold them in your hand, I bet nobody here would admit to walking out of a store without paying for any of it, even if the suppliers of the products have been screwed over along the way.

By the way, I think this is what Gillian Welch's song 'Everything is Free' is about.

Subject: RE: How to kill the record industry...
From: GUEST,Reverse Flow
Date: 20 May 09 - 03:27 AM

The answer is not to stop piracy, it is to make a new service that is so unique and superior that it is the only thing that people want to use. I tunes is a service like that but it only accounts for a small percentage of all music sales. If something truly better and more captivating emerges then the industry will become stronger. Also, now there are more opportunities for independent labels and artists due to the declining influence of major record labels.