Forget the words, just play the tune!

Subject: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:36 AM

Oh how wonderful, really wonderful opera would be if there were no singers!
Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868), Italian composer.

I love Mozart's opera music (among others), right up to the point when the warbling starts. It's those over- mannered, over- trained voices that put me off.

You, of course, are entitled to a different opinion (provided it is the same as mine).

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:42 AM

My old man used to turn the sound off on the TV when an opera singer would come... hilarious to watch... when I was a tad.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:43 AM

Hehehe... good typo.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: jeffp
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:22 AM

I imagine that would be hilarious to watch!

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 08:58 AM

And of course there are no over-mannered & trained voices in folk, are there?

Here's Cecilia Bartoli, one of my favourite singers of all time:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J7P-INo21qU

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:50 AM

Yes there are, but it's not compulsory...

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 09:58 AM

Just had a look at the Youtube clip and frankly I'm with PMB on this one.
Lovely delightful music suddenly spoiled by some woman opening her mouth and grimacing. I assume it is supposed to be a serious performance, but all I see is a charicature.
I'll stick with the folks scene. At least there, if you don't appreciate the performer, you can head off to the bar and wait until it's safe.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:21 AM

depends on the opera - let us not forget that the **COMPOSER** stuck in a lot of the feautures that really annoy people about opera - the long trills, warbles, etc. I know a number of operatically trained people (including one friend whose just had several offers from both US and European companies!) whose singing is fantastic; when they don't sing the classically operatic opera.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 10:36 AM

I agree with MMario on this. The composers had to write great feats of vocal endurance in order to sell things. I am very fond of Handel, who was a lot more tasteful than most.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM

Must admit to being a bit baffled by this one, especially given the beauteous splendours being opened up by singers of Bartoli's calibre. Caricature? No - the word you want is Colatura! Here she is singing Handel:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kyzR2qvT0Ac

So what's the real objection here? Is it simply a matter of personal taste, or something more considered perhaps?

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:00 PM

Both the clips linked illustrate exactly what I feel about operatic/ Classical singing. The voice is screaming on the top notes, gluey in the lower register. "Trills" and semiquaver runs sound like a mad scientist laughing. Replace it with an oboe and the music would be perfect!

I must say I like the theorbo in the first one. But then I like theorbos anywhere, I suspect I'd like to marry one.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:06 PM

There are times when, imo, nothing can compare to Mozart's The Magic Flute or Puccini's La Boheme. If you don't care for that kind of voice, don't listen to it. Do opera lovers come in here and castigate folkies for their non-warbley singing? It is possible to enjoy/like both, ya know, but it's kind of senseless to compare them...the old apples and oranges thing.

I thought this was going to be about playing the trad tunes and not worrying about forgetting the words!

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:08 PM

I've always really disliked operatic-style singing, which is why I have spent very little time during my whole lifetime listening to opera.

The WORST is when some opera celebrity gets on TV and "appeals to the masses" by singing some popular song in full-blown grand operatic style. How obnoxious!

Back when I was a kid, this used to happen all the time on the Ed Sullivan Show; you still encounter it occasionally, but not as often.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Stewart
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 12:10 PM

Well, Deckman and I watched a pretty young singer-song writer at an open mic last year. She was very good looking and the backup music was great. But she couldn't sing worth anything. Bob looked at me and asked me what language she was singing, and I hadn't a clue. Her song could have great, but we couldn't understand a word. So aside from the singing, she was lovely to look at and the backup music was great.

So, forget the words, just play the tune!

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 04:15 PM

Put some sugar in it, PMB, and you'll get grape juice;-)

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 05:48 PM

I never really liked classical singing, especially not female voices until I discovered Emma Kirkby. A wonderful clear voice.

Hear she is singing Dido's Lament from Purcell's Dido and Aneas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTV6F3lTU7o

And here she is singing Mozart; "Laudate Dominum" (Mozart at his most sublime)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDmsInSvgPA

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM

Sedayne - at the end of the argument, it's mostly about taste, one man's meat is another man's veggieburger and the like. Some people loved Pavarotti, but most of us couldn't name anything he sang which wasn't Nessun Dorma and we only know that because of the soccer World Cup.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:17 PM

A few years back I heard Cecilia Bartoli sing at the Proms at the Albert Hall. I'm not a great fan of opera or classical singing - but she was absolutely stunning! Skill, passion, artistry - it was all there - a fabulous performance. The only thing that spoiled it was that she refused to do an encore.

Some singers transcend genre - and she's one of them.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:42 PM

In that second Bartoli clip, it occurred to me to wonder if anyone had ever suggested that she take some acting lessons.

And whoever directed that scene needs to go back to wherever (s)he got his/her initial directorial training. The blocking of the scene is abrupt, jerky, and unmotivated. She stands woodenly, making those sounds in her throat and grimacing; there's a short rest in her music, so she abruptly walks away and turns in midstride to charge up to the other character and STOPS--and gargles melodiously again. No suggestion of motivation in her demeanor at all.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 06:46 PM

Emma Kirkby, Cecilia Bartoli, that Jenkins woman, they all sound the same to me, I have to confess.

as an impressionable adolescent, I do admit to having had a huge crush on Jeanette McDonald, who to my untutored ear had a vastly superior voice to Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Maria Callas and all the other operatic divas around at the time

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Jan 08 - 07:08 PM

Thanks for the Emma Kirkby clips, Tootler. Back in the early 80s BBC2 featured a series of late night shorts with Emma singing Dowland (In This Tremblng Shadow) & William Lawes (Charon & the Nightingale with David Thomas) & others. I dream that these will turn up one day on YouTube...

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 03:08 PM

Thanks for the Emma Kirkby clips

You're most welcome.

Back in the early 80s BBC2 featured a series of late night shorts with Emma singing Dowland ... & William Lawes ...

She's a superb singer of Renaissance song. I have some albums of her singing songs from that period. They're fabulous. The accompaniments (mostly) by Anthony Rooley on the Lute are superb. They stay in the background and allow the song to stand out, but at the same time complement the song beautifully. A lot of folk guitarists would do well to listen to some of these, IMHO. They could learn a great deal about effective accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 05:57 AM

I saw EK & AR giving a recital of (mostly) Dowland back in the early nineties. I remember AR advising the audience to refrain from applause not only for the sake of historical authenticity, but also to allow ones ears to attune to the delicate dynamics of voice and instrument. Exquisite!

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: GUEST,HuwG at office
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 08:59 AM

Personally, I have always thought that female operatic stars should not be billed above, say, the costume department. After all, the costume department tucks up the frills while the diva ...

Subject: RE: Forget the words, just play the tune!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jan 08 - 05:15 PM

I've never been much of an opera fan, but I have gone a few times. You don't know what opera is until you have gone to one. It's not just people singing, it's a spectacle, with costumes, lighting, dancing and good acting as well.

The opera here in kansas city projects the lyrics above the stage. That really enhances it for me.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I just don't enjoy seeing people get murdered, raped or betrayed, so I only go to happy operas. They are very enjoyable, with clever bits that get laughs.

The style of opera singing has changed over recent years, and the dark kind of voice which sounds like the singer is swallowing the words, is out of fashion. I enjoy opera more since that has happened.