Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson

Subject: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: theballadeer
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 12:17 PM

I did search the database - and I don't think this question has been asked - but could be wrong.

In the lyric of Battle of New Orleans - it says "Marse Jackson". I had always assumed it was a nickname of Andrew Jackson...yet I find no reference to "Marse (or "Marsh") Jackson" any where else. Anyone know?

Nick

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 12:20 PM

I guess its dialect for Master Jackson...

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM

The same term was used in the "Unreconstructed Rebel" to refer to General Robert E. Lee:

"I followed ol' Marse Roberts fur four years nearabouts..."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackso
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 12:47 PM

Since the song was written by Jimmy Driftwood ca 1960, it's not of much use dreging up what 1813 usage might have been.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:02 PM

The word Marse was a southern (USA) term for Master.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:11 PM

Geez, Dick, the song was about events in 1814/15, and written in first-person. The lyrics should be expected to reflect how a veteran of that battle might have spoken.

Anyway, there are still folks around the South who pronounce the word "master," especially when used in direct-address, as "marse." Nowadays, of course, the term is more likely to be used ironically than straightforwardly.

The lyric starts out saying "in 1814 we took a little trip," but the battle actually took place in January of 1815. It was part of the "War of 1812," and actually occurred after the treaty had been signed, unbeknownst to the participants. I'm not sure of the exact date, but I know that the annual anniversary reenactment just took place within the past week or so. The site was (and is) just outside the City of New Orleans, in Chalmette, St. Bernard Parish, site of some of the worst flood damage when the levees failed in 2005.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:35 PM

Battle Of New Orleans

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:45 PM

James Corbett Morris, aka Jimmy Driftwood, was a teacher and student of old American music; his collection of thousands of songs, collected and/or re-written, continued the efforts of his father, also a collector who recorded a number of folk songs. He was instrumental in the founding of the Ozark Folk Center, lobbying Congressional leaders for help in funding.

He would have been very familiar with white American 19th c. dialects and language usage.
The tune for BNO is "Eighth of January," revised.

1.
In eighteen and fourteen we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Misissip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we met the bloody British near the town of New Orleans.

Jimmy Driftwood's version (or close to it) is in the DT. Marse was commonly used for 'boss' or master in the South. It is defined in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, and persists in Georgia slang.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 01:55 PM

The Villan: Legos??!?!?!?!?

interesting video, indeed...

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackso
From: open mike
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:06 PM

Can someone link this to a thread about this song or the D.T. entry?
My search feature does not bring up any "hits"

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

Well you can't win em all :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

Well researched, Marse Villan....no where's the kid's Lego set?

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:15 PM

Puts a new meaning on Lego.

I never got mine to do that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:29 PM

I had known for years that the tune upon which "The Battle of New Orleans" is based is the fiddle tune "Eighth of January". What I didn't know until recently is that January 8 is the date upon which the battle was fought, so the tune commemorated the battle sans words until Mr. Driftwood came along and added them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 02:37 PM

Jackson started his fight against the British on Dec. 23, 1814, when 24 Americans and 46 British killed; the 'battle' was on January 8, 1815 at Chalmette Plantation. I don't remember when Jackson marched to New Orleans, he was in the City in December. The first verse of the song with date 1814 is correct as written.

Put Battle of New Orleans in the Search box and both DT and thread links come up.

That Lego simulation is cute, but the fort shown didn't exist. Earthworks only.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: PoppaGator
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 03:45 PM

"Earthworks only":

There's an old plantation house on the grounds of the Chalmette Battlefield, and I'm fairly sure that it dates back to the battle.

I attended the anniversary reenactment several years ago and heard the whole narrative as passed along by National Park Rangers, usually an authoritative source. My memory is not absolutely sure, but I think I recall discussion of the house as part of the environment during the battle, close behind the American line. Not a fortified military installation, but at least a building that could serve as a makeshift headquarters.

Bee-Dub: Thanks for the insight about the date and how it correlates to the fiddle-tune title. A lot of people might "know" those two facts but still fail to pur them together...

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 03:55 PM

Although the Treaty of Ghent had been signed the previous December, it wasn't ratified by the USA until 16 Febuary 1815.

A main contributor to the British defeat was the actions of the officer commanding the 1st Battalion, 44th Regiment of Foot (East Essex). He was supposed to bring forward fascines (big bundles of brushwood) and scaling ladders to deal with the canal and earthworks. So when the attacking infantry reached these obstacles they got stuck there. details here Of course, there was no guarantee that would have meant success. But the some of the British officers had convinced Pakenham that American militia would not withstand a strong frontal assault (viz Bladensburg).

Incidently, the 44th was the most-massacred English Regiment - at Prestonpans by the Scots, by French and Indians on the Monogahela River and by Afghans in the retreat from Kabul, 1840. Just the lads you need in a tight spot!

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackso
From: theballadeer
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

Wow! I had no idea it would get this much response. Thanks very much to all.

Nick

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM

Poppagator - there's a painting showing the battlefield by Jean Hyacinthe de Laclotte in the New Orleans Museum of Art that's supposed to be pretty accurate.

The cotton bales shown in the animation protecting the American guns were actually removed before the battle because of their tendancy to catch fire!

Another thing about the song - it was because the British didn't run straight away that they got so many casualties.

Anyone interested in this war would do well to get hold of Donald Hickey's 'Don't give up the ship - myths of the war of 1812', University of Illinois Press. Hickey has been described as America's leading authority on this war.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:08 PM

PoppaGator is right about the plantation - the American troops fought right in front of Macarty`s plantation - I recommend Robert V. Remini`s book "The battle of New Orleans". Good book, and it has a map of the battlefield.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackso
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:21 PM

Just imagine how pissed off you'd feel if you found out that the battle in which you lost your leg, or your husband maybe, turned out to have taken place after the war was over, so that it couldn't have made any difference to the outcome either way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:32 PM

...trouble is...now I can't sing the song without seeing little Lego people marching about!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Joybell
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:38 PM

As a funny side note about this song -- Here in Australia the word "bloody" was thought to be too naughty for us to hear so it was bleeped out of the recordings played on air here. The single had already been released before the word was noticed, so they were recalled after a few days and replaced by records without the offending word. I got me a copy of the rare "naughty" version before the recall. Don't know what happened to it.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackso
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 04:01 PM

They did that to Lonnie Donegan too - here he is singing the song with "blooming British" - YouTube.

And there was an adjusted version put out too in the UK, with "Rebels" instead of "British" - but I think the record buying public saw this as a bit silly, and preferred the version with "British". (Insofar as patriotic feelings might enter into it I'd imagine the line about "the British kept a-coming" would have clinched it anyway.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Batttle of New Orleans - Marse Jackson
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:32 PM

Peter
Maybe you could take a set of lego along and use them whilst you sing :-)