Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card

Subject: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:46 PM

Hi there

I've just bought a new sound card so that I can do some recording. Its a Edirol UA-4fx, but there is loads of popping and crackling going on. I've been trough the manual and done everything it says but its still cracking a popping any of you wizzes gat any hot tips on how I can stop it????

regards

Kara

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

maybe it's defective or perhaps not seated well (bad connection)....I'd wiggle it gently and push it to be sure it's snug.

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:52 PM

You need to look very carefully at when the noise goes on.

If it's present when you play stuff already recorded on your computer, from "known clean" source, then it's probably part of the card installation. It could be something as simple as a dirty contact on the slot the card is seated in, a "loose connection" to the card, or a defect in the card itself. If you have another slot that the card will go in, moving to another slot sometimes helps. Wiggling the card to make sure it's well seated, or removing and reinstalling in the same slot may help.

If the noise is present only when you hook up to record something, it's possible that you have a dirry, or "loose" jack where something plugs into the computer, or where the other end of the cable hooks up with the component you're connecting.

A "bad cable" is ALWAYS a suspect, if there's a cable "anywhere in the country."

If the new card is an "upgrade" over the previous sound installation, it's possible that the noise was always "in the recording" and the old system just didn't pass it to the speakers. Not a high-odds possibility, but still something to consider.

I haven't looked at the card specs, but many "newer" graphics cards dissipate a lot of heat and if the cooling in your case is "less than excellent" you could get noise from overheating of the card or from adjacent components heated by the card.

Lots of possibles, but it can be tough to find out which of the "things that shouldn't happen" are at work.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:56 PM

Oops: Of course I meant "sound cards dissipate a lot of heat" in the next to last paragraph. Sound cards aren't as bad as graphics cards, but some newer ones do "work a lot harder" than what may have been in place before.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 07:31 PM

Hi thanks for your help

The popping is on all recording. It is an extrenal sound card with a usb connection to the compute, I have tried it in all 3 ports, and disinstalled ans reinstalled 3 times.

I read on the help page that it could be a IRQ sharing problem, but there is no help on what that means or what I can do about it...

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 07:38 PM

Are you sure you're not just putting too much signal in, which causes all sorts of nasty distortion?

The technical term is 'clipping'. You can see it on the waveform as flat tops on all the peaks instead of rounded or sharp peaks.

Try reducing the input signal really drastically, so that there's hardly anything there. Maybe the pops and crackles will disappear.

With a digital recording signal you can safely under-record at -10dB peak, and correct the levels afterwards, as there's negligible background noise.

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 07:43 PM

No I dont think it is the input signal, as it is popping even when I play proffesionally recorded tracks? real records

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 08:53 PM

A USB connection is very much like a plain old serial port, but with USB the connection has to be "mounted" and given a name, so that the computer can tell which USB device it's talking to.

If you disconnect the device, and reboot the computer, usually the "device assignment" will be cleared. When you then plug in, a new assignment will be made that should clear any "USB conflicts."

It is possible to "overload" a USB connection, since the connector also is expected to supply power to the device you plug into it. Usually a couple of devices - like cameras, flash memory, etc, won't draw enough power to bog things down, but too many devices, or one that needs a lot of power, in the same socket could give you poor power to one or more.

I would guess that an external sound box would draw more power than some other USB things commonly plugged in. It should be okay if it's the only thing there, but if you have other USB devices (printers are a common kind) you may need to get an "external USB bridge." You would need one that has it's own power supply that plugs into a power line socket (i.e. a "wall-wart"). [Note that there are "connection expanders" that don't have the external power plugin. The "formal name" is "passive port expander." These won't help if the problem is the amount of power the device needs.

A USB "device cable" connects the bridge to any USB socket on the computer. The device you want plugs into the bridge. The bridge then supplies the power that the device needs, instead of making the computer socket furnish it. Win2K or WinXP do an excellent job of automatically recognizing and setting up a new bridge, but some older Windows versions may require loading a "driver" program before the first connection of the bridge.

Disconnecting the device, and rebooting, should clear conflicts as long as you haven't exceeded the 7-device logical limit for USB. Check that first, before buying anything new.

The powered bridge is only needed for devices that are overloading the USB port power capacity. (<$20 US for an "economy" 4-port to $60-$80? for a "really good" one. The "really good" would only be justified if you expect to do "lots of USB.")

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:21 AM

aaarrrhhhhhhh!

Well Ive been for a bit of a sleep now back on the case.
I have as John suggested rebooted the computer no USBs connected then just the sound card .

but it is still popping.

There is one bit in the manuel about power management, but I cant find that on my laptop...

anyone got any clues????

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:48 AM

For WinXP, and fairly similar for other recent ones:

Start | Settings | Control Panel - double-click on Power Options.

About the only thing that Power Management does is lets your computer turn itself off, or go to a sleep mode, or hibernate (lots of fancy names for a few slightly different ways of not doing anything). You can tell it how long to wait, whether to go to sleep mode, standby mode, or shut off, and whether to wake up if the phone rings, etc.

There was a known "bug" where a computer that "goes to sleep" while a USB port is doing something might not recognize the USB device correctly when you "wake it up," but the USB mouse is about the only component that's been "officially reported" as having that problem. The immediate "solution" was advice to "don't move the mouse while the computer is shutting down under power management control." There supposedly was a patch that fixed this a couple of years ago. (So far as reported, it mostly happened only on laptops.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:53 AM

hhhmmmm, it says in the manuel that I should click, "Don't poll power supply Status" what ever that means? and I can't find anywhere that says that at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 06:01 AM

That sounds like it must be in something specific to the sound box. I don't see anything like it in Windows power management.

Did the soundcard come with an installation disk that might have set up its own control panel, perhaps?

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 06:36 AM

Kara

What operating system are you using? And how much memory do you have.

If it's XP, you can try turning off power management from Control Panel/Power Options/Power Schemes and set Always On in the Power Schemes drop down and see if that makes a difference.

The manual lists several possible solutions. Have you tried the other things they suggest: Background services given priority, buffer size increase, using their own USB cable, disabling any LAN you are using, using same sample rates in sound card and software?

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 06:40 AM

John

The manual states like: The explanation that follows is for a typical situation, but you should refer to the owner's manual for your computer to verify these settings. Some computers may not have the following items.

For starters I'd try turning off power management and seeing if that makes a difference. If it does, you may be able to customise it more specifically from Device Manager/Properties for the device.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:08 AM

Mick - In WinXP you can't really turn of the power management. You just set the "turn off after" time to Never.

Edirol UA-4FX, click on Owner's Manual. Three .pdf items available. The two "Read First" are Quick Start cards, one general and a special for Vista. The "Advanced" (about 3 MB) has some more information.

The User Manuals that I found for the UA-4fx indicate that the buffer size setting in the UA-4fx control panel may produce clicks and pops if set to minimize buffer size. The same info is in all three of the "Manuals" - page 36 and 37 in the Advanced one. There's a checkbox that minimizes the amount of buffer assigned, intended for use only when all connected devices are to a specific specification: Start | Settings |Control Panel and double click on the UA-4fx to open the control panel for the box. All the manual says is to "uncheck the box if clicks and pops are heard" but there may be additional buffer size adjustments there as well. The cable for each device attached to the UA-4fx needs to be unplugged and reconnected for the change to take effect. (I assume they mean everything except the connection to the computer?)

This would be a good thing to check first, if not already done.

I didn't see anything else obvious, but only skimmed through the booklet.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:57 AM

That's what I meant John as in my post before last - to try Power Scheme to Always On.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM

Mind you - I've got ProTools on my machine and had a lot of problems with it cutting off sometimes during playback. The manual suggested increasing h/w buffer (but that was already at max), disabling network, disabling anti-virus, disabling screen-saver, disabling power-management etc. The problem was, however, completely solved by increasing my system memory from 500Mb to 1Gb! After that it ran without any problems and without needing to disable anything.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 01:10 PM

Hi guys

yep I've done every thing it says in the manuel and all the system tweeks suggested on http://www.musicxp.net/dnn/tabid/59/Default.aspx, and the poppin g has reduced bit it hasn't gone away.

My operating system is XP and I've got 1,00Go of ram

93Go of memory of which 71Go are free

Do you use on of these and how do you find it?

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:30 PM

Kara

No I don't have one; I have an Mbox that I use with ProTools.

I had a look at the power and it's given as 360mA, you might have a look at the USB Hub/Properties/Power settings in the Device Manager to see that there are no problems with the power supply.

You could try installing what I presume are the latest drivers from Driver XP Ver 1.0.2 (5th item down I think).

If you're running in Advanced Mode, you could try running in Standard Mode to see if there's any difference. If there is (ie if it's better) then that would eliminate cables/card seating as possible sources and leave you with software as the most likely.

Does it happen whatever input source you use? And does it happen if you output from a computer audio file?

I hate it when what should be nice straighforward installations don't go as smoothly as the manuals suggest!

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:51 PM

Thanks for your help. It is so annoying when you get a new toy and it doesn't work properly

How can you tell if there is a problem with the power supply?
I've been in the device manager and on all the USB ports it said that the system was authorised to turn this off to save energy, so I unclicked those, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference.

I have tried connection to all three different usb ports, and tried differnet USB cables but non of it makes any difference.

The clicking and popping goes on no matter what file type I play and what player I use.

There is less popping with the advances driver ON, and having the buffer size as big as it can go impoves things , but its still there. If I could make the buffer size even bigger that might help, but I don't know if there is a way to do that?????

Do you???

regards

Kara

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 08:29 PM

I don't see anything in the manual that indicates how large the buffer is or whether it's virtual (on the hard drive) or in RAM for this box.

WinXP does impose a fairly loose limit on temp spaces on the drive (buffers could be in this category) so it's remotely possible that Windows isn't letting the box use all the space it asks for.

You have sufficient free space on the drive, at 70 GB free, that it shouldn't be limiting unless your hard drive is very badly fragmented. If you've run defrag regularly, it shouldn't be a problem; but if it's not in your regular routine it's one more step you could do to "eliminate the unlikely."

(In Windows Explorer, right click on the drive, click properties, click the Tools tab and you should find a "Defragment" option. It's best to close as many programs as possible before running it. Allow for about an hour on your drive as it looks like a 180 GB or so about half full.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 09:19 PM

Only thing I can ask is do you get the impression these sounds are sort of like something failing to keep pace or bad audio? Hard to describe, I know.

If you are using speakers, can you try a set of headphones with the card or vice versa ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 04:23 AM

I did defrag a couple of days ago, but I'll give it another go.

It does sound like something falling to keep pace.
I have tried with headphones and speakers and checked the headphone by playing the same tracks on the internal sound card where I get no popping at all.


what next????

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 04:28 AM

Kara

I was going to suggest something a bit similar:

1) Do you get the same sounds on phones and speakers. If so that seems to be the recorded/played back sound that's the problem. If phones is clear, then it's probably the output line to the speakers (as far as I can see there's no way to monitor the input directly before any processing, but as you say it happens on all sources, it's probably not the input).

2) If you record something and save it to disk, what happens when you play the file back on the computer (via soundcard) - ie not via the Edirol. Does the computer playback have the pops and crackles in?

(I'm assuming, btw, that you matched the sample rates on the software and Edirol as the manual tells you too?)


Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 04:38 AM

And what sample rate are you using?

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 05:14 AM

If you've done defrag fairly recently it's not likely to help much, although it's something that needs to be done on a fairly regular basis so it doesn't hurt to do it again (except the pain of waiting for it to finish).

At the same spot where you do defrag (Right click the drive, Properties), but on the General Tab there should be a Disk Cleanup, where you can also clear Temporary Internet Files. I wouldn't expect the sound sytem buffer to use this space, but once again eliminating the "probably nots" leaves fewer "maybes."

Clearing Temp files, Downloaded files, and History are usually painless. If you delete cookies there, you'll find that you have to log back in the next time you come here - and other places where you have persistent logins. An alternative for cookies is to use Ad-Aware (free download "anti-spyware") that deletes the annoying (and sometimes hazardous ones) but usually leaves "permanent ones" that you've given permission for.

At the Drive Properties, General tab, there's a check box for "Compress files on this drive to save space." If the box is checked, your whole drive may (or may not, depending on Format) be compressed, which can slow down some file operations. I don't see it having an effect on buffer/temp space, but it might be something to consider if/when Jon and Mick run completley out of ideas. If it's NOT CHECKED don't check it, at least for now. If it is checked, I'd suggest leaving it alone until someone can look up how messy "uncompressing" a whole drive may get; but it might be mentioned as information for further thinking in a later post.

I do practically zero sound work on my computer, so I can't really comment beyond the basic system workings. The problem here seems to be tied into how the sound system works, and I can't go far there (and may have exceeded my safe depth already).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 05:58 AM

Hi

I'm using 44.1 sample rate.

I have tried all the sample rates and it doesn't seem to make any differnce.

Am I right in concluding that the higher the buffe size the lower the latency?

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 06:07 AM

Kara

Latency will increase with buffer size - the bigger the buffer, the longer it will take to fill, the longer before it can be output. Generally speaking, data is put into a buffer until the buffer is full. When the buffer is full it's passed on to something else for processing or output.

Larger buffers will reduce the number of times that processing has to be interrupted to handle creation of new buffers/buffer output.

Have a look at pages 36/37 of the Advanced Manual for the settings for these.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 06:27 AM

>what next???? <

None from me at the moment, Kara, except to say I think you've confirmed which types of trouble you have.

Hope you get it working soon. It looks as if it should be nice unit.

Oh just one, are there other devices like another sound card you could try disabling? Also, someone may be able to tell you, I don't know off hand, but there is some system info on Win that can show you what interrupts there are. I guess it could be a conflict somewhere.

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:33 AM

To check for any h/w conflicts open the Device Manager (Control Panel/System/Device Manger) and have a open the Sound, video and game controllers (click the + beside it, do nothing if - beside it). Right click on your device in the list and select Properties. The Resources tab will show you what resources it uses and if there are any conflicts.

What's your processor and speed Kara?

If you've done all the things suggested in the manual, I'm at a loss for what else to try. (You do have all effects off on the unit don't you?).

What does happen if you record?

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:45 AM

Posting collision - second try:

Start|Programs|Accessories|System Tools|System Information.

Click on "Hardware Resources" (or the + beside it) to open that section, and there should be a "Conflicts" section that will show if anything is having a problem.

There are separate sections where you can look at DMA and IRQ settings individually.

You'll need to go to elsewhere to change anything, but this is the quickest place to see the whole setup.

It's fairly common here for DMA and/or IRQ both to be shared, and that's not necessarily a problem. Anything that actually is a Conflict should be "specially marked" to make it evident.

If you're not familiar with the System Information tool, the standard warning must be given: DON'T get ambitious and try to print it all "just for reference." The whole thing will run more than 1,000 pages, usually much more. If you click on a subsection, and print only the section of interest, (File|Print with a subsection selected) it's sometimes useful.

To make changes, if necessary, Start|Settings|Control Panel, open "Hardware" (double-click) and select the Device Manager tab.

In WinXP Pro, if you click Start|Help, and put "Device Manager" in the search box, there actually is some useful and understandable instruction for how to use it. You'll have to look for yourself if you're using WinXP Home, as there are sometimes differences. (It actually is "practical" to print topics here - usually - so that you can refer to them as you work a problem.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 08:58 AM

OK in Cubase I've found adivice manager that askes me number of disk buffers and buffer size. At present it is set to 4 buffers and 128Kb for the size, do you think I should increase or decrease the numner of buffers and what about the size?

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 11:35 AM

Can we come back to Cubase in a minute Kara.

1) Can you tell me when you were installing did you do the Check You Can Hear Sound check as described on P8 of the Getting Started Manual. Was there clicking and popping then. I'm trying to see if the problem is your Cubase setup rather than the Edirol setup.

2) In Cubase what drivers are you using - should be on the same device manager in Cubase I think.

3) I don't have Cubase but I have an old version of Cubasis VST that I don't use but is on my machine. That's set up to use ASIO drivers and appears to be set at 5 buffers of ~5500 samples (~11k for 16 bit audio which it's set for) for Input and 5 similar buffers for output.

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Kara
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 12:50 PM

I have had cubase installed for some time. Before the installation of the Edirol AU there was no clicking and popping.

I have set all the drivers to Edirol.

I have just installed the Edirol onto the home computer instead of my laptop and there is not a click or pop to be heard.

So the problem is something to do with my laptop,,,,any clues

Subject: RE: Tech: Pop and crackles on my sound card
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 01:47 PM

Assuming that your laptop processor is of a reasonable speed and that Cubase is set up identically on both machines the only thing I can think of as a possibility is that the disk speed on the laptop might be slow. (For example ProTools suggests a dedicated drive of at least 7200rpm for audio storage).

Compare your Cubase Audio setup on the two machines and make the laptop settings identical to the desktop.

Are the drivers for the Edirol that came on the install disk the latest as on the website I linked above? If not, I'd install the newer drivers from the website.

On the laptop are the three USB ports you mentioned the installed ports on the laptop - ie no multiple USB plug. (The difference would be in power usage. The basic ports should be able to supply 500mA each, but if you're using an expander plug that wouldn't be true and you'd probably need an external powered hub - the Edirol draws 350mA).

If power management might be a problem you could still try setting the power scheme to Always On and seeing if that makes a difference (if not change just change it back).

Otherwise I think I'm out of ideas!


Mick