Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals

Subject: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:37 AM

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but couldn't find anything on a search.

Have just taken the plunge and upgraded the PC and bought a PC interface (Alesis IO2) and a couple of half decent large condenser mics, to record my accoustic instruments (i.e. no pickups on any of them - guitars, mandolin and banjo), and vocals onto PC in our small-ish spare room, using Cubase LE in the first instance (until I get used to it and out-grow it).

First attempt, guitar didn't sound at all good (haven't dared try vocals yet!).

So, I would appreciate any help, advice, links to other threads etc from any of you experienced 'Catter recording engineers (E.g. I understand mic placement can mak a big difference...etc etc).

Thanks again, and looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: bigchuck
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:46 AM

You might find a need to upgrade your sound card. Computers that have sound cards built into the motherboard are often poor choices for recording. It would be helpful if you could say in what way your guitar sounds "poor". Digital recording is very sensitive to overloading which distorts the sound.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Jon Nix
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:01 AM

I think Bigchuck has a point.
I have been using "Audacity" software which is available as a free download and performs really well, allowing multi-tracking, over-dubbing, editing, etc.
I also use a good quality Samson mic.
However, the sound card certainly is important. Any system is limited by its weakest link.
In my case, I think the dodgy link is me!

Remember that, depending on your own system, the input level of the microphone is adjusted by Windows itself.....go to "Control Panel", "Sounds and Audio Devices", "Audio". In that dialogue box you can select your input and output devices and also adjust volumes.
On my system, this operates before the recording software and really affects the quality of the recording.

I found this made a lot of difference....give it a try.
Also, check out Audacity....after all it's free!
Good luck

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:28 AM

Hi folks.

Thanks for the tips.

Re the soundcard, I'm not using the PC's soundcard. That's where the Alesis IO2 audio interface comes in!

In simple terms it's an external (USB) bit of kit something like part way between a normal PC soundcard, and a professional mixing desk.

I.e. 2 separate input channels (with phantom power for the mics) with adjustable gains and LED's for levels; 24 bit 96 Khz recording with high end A/D; adjustable outputs for headphones and monitors (I'm using my old hi-fi system for monitors!); midi in & out; etc etc plus its own driver. Cubase LE came with it.

Re the sound of the guitar, it sounded boomy and lacked its normal brightness (I like a bright sound), generally sounded 'wooly'. I did manage to make it sound a bit better by applying equalisation, but I'd rather get the sound as good as possible at source.


Thanks again

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: jeffp
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM

Were you pointing the mike at the sound hole? That's the worst place to aim it. Try using 2 mikes -- one pointing at the bridge and one pointing at about the 12th fret. Have them 1-2 feet away from the guitar at most. Closer if you can manage without bumping them. Adjust from there until you get a good sound.

If you can eliminate room reflections, you will get a better sound.

Good luck and have fun with it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

Thanks jeffp - will try that.

Any thoughts on positioning mics for vocals?

Rgds

OF

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: jeffp
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:16 AM

Just above your mouth and about a foot away to start. A pop screen would be a good idea. If you can't get one or don't want to spend the money, stretch a stocking across a frame made from a coathanger. That will protect the sound somewhat from popping p's and also protect the mike from spit. It also helps you stay a consistent distance from the mike.

You can get a lot of good advice (and a fair bit of abuse; it's a pretty freewheeling site) at http://homerecording.com/bbs/.

A copy of Home Recording for Musicians for Dummies will be a big help too.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

Oldest trick in the book but still dead useful. Put up one mic. Put a reasonable set of headphones on. Get a good level and move around. Move the guitar up or down left or right. Try recording a snippet of guitar in a whole series of different positions until you find it sounding the way you 'd like. All guitars are different, all mics are different. All recording systems are different. Have fun.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:21 AM

Thanks again Jeffp.

Got a pop shield when I bought the mics.

Will try looking at homerecording,com

Thanks again

OF

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:49 AM

Thanks Phil

That sounds a very sensible approach - in fact a blinding flash of the obvious that I totally missed thinking about as a potential solution!

Hey-ho, that's where Mudcat scores big-style for us newbies!

Thanks again to all

OF

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM

If he has good large condenser mikes, he should be able to move them back further than 1-2 feet and still get a good, full sound. I would think a lot could be gained by just moving the mikes around a bit to find the sound that you want.

My guess, though follows jeffp's idea--that the problem has more to do with the room, as boominess is associated with low frequency reflection-- if you're like me and have old carpets of one sort or another rolled up in the basement, they make useful no-cost wall covering/acoustic curtain.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Grab
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 11:31 AM

If your mics have an "omni" setting, consider using that.

Cardioid mics have different frequency responses from different directions - they're usually only truly cardioid at a single frequency. The sound you hear from a guitar is a combination of all parts of the soundboard, but a cardioid mic sees a very skewed version of that. Dual-micing a guitar compensates for this by putting mics at two positions which produce contrasting sound qualities (more "thump" from the lower bout and more "woodiness" from the upper bout), so you've then got the ability to mix the two and get the right combination. But you should be able to get more of the real thing in one go by using a single omni positioned a little ways off.

If you've got Cubase already, there's no point in downgrading to Audacity.

And beware of your hi-fi amp and speakers misleading you. If you know they're good then fine, but many aren't. You might want to use a measurement microphone (£40 for a Behringer one IIRC) to check how they behave - you can't fully fix it with EQ, but it'll help.

Don't forget compression and reverb. Compression will help take some of the sharpness off a guitar if it's getting in the way, and will iron out vocal "pops". A little reverb is nice, but too much sounds like you're playing down a sewer pipe, so be sparing with that. You might also need a de-esser if your "S", "F" and "TH" sound too hissy, although if you've got all the gear to hand then you might as well just re-record it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM

A few years ago I was recording my dulcimer. Nothing computerized - just a mic and a tape recorder. The chap at Radio Shack told me that the hiss on my first tape came from the background noise of the house - the furnace, refrigerator, running water, etc.

On my second try, I turned the fridge up and the heat down. I also chose a time when few cars were going by. The results were far better. I quit recording when my cat, who was huddled atop the only warm thing left in the house (the tape recorder), began to mew piteously.

I would not be surprised if it is still true that you have to turn off background noises even though using computerized equipment.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: GUEST,Euthryphro
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:21 PM

Some good advice here. I'll heartily endorse homerecording.com where you will find a very informed and helpful bunch, for the most part.

My 2 cents for acoustic guitar recording; put one mic about 4 inches away from the 12th fret, and the second about 12 inches from the soundhole. Adjust to taste and blend the two together, should produce at least a workable sound. You probably want to use a High Pass Filter in cubase; start at 100Hz and adjust either way, use your ears. Add reverb to taste, and compression if required (2.5:1 is a good start for ratio).

What are the mics, incidentally? Unless I missed it above, you didn't name them.

Do let us know how you get on!

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: treewind
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM

Leeneia: Of course you have to reduce background noises. Sound is sound and if it's there it will get recorded. In fact tape has an inherent background hiss which will mask out low level noise, while digital recording has negligible noise so you may have to be even more careful about the cats, birds, traffic and CH or AC.

Another difference with a computer is that the computer itself can make a lot of noise and you may need to hide that away behind a sound blocking barrier. In the next room, behind a desk or sofa with cushions piled over it - whatever's handy and works. Or get a low noise PC case with quiet fans. My Antec P150 is a miracle of quiet PC engineering, for example.

You may also find, especially when you back off the mics (that was good advice about keeping away from the sound hole, by the way) that you are recording too much of the room acoustic and in a typical house that's not very good. You can't get a good reverberant acoustic in a small room, so the answer is to absorb sound and than you find out about bass traps and you find that making good recordings isn't about sound cards, digital electronics and condenser mics, it's about room treatment and building materials! But a living room with soft furnishings like that sofa I mentioned is probably OK.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

"Were you pointing the mike at the sound hole? That's the worst place to aim it. Try using 2 mikes -- one pointing at the bridge and one pointing at about the 12th fret. Have them 1-2 feet away from the guitar at most. Closer if you can manage without bumping them. Adjust from there until you get a good sound."

Have them not face each other though to avoid "crosstalk". Phasing problems could result.
Look for a "Y" formation. Directional mics work best here.

Problem, computer noise. Anyone know how to deal with this aside from moving the mics into another room? Baffles?

Anyone have an idea about how to record playing and singing at the same time without phase cancelation (separating the vocal from the instrumental mic)? I've heard of a plastic frame developed for this purpose.

There are some folks who don't do well with overdubs. They tend to sound mechanical and the performance is best playing and singing at the same time.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 02:18 PM

I agree, Frank. When we were doing our first CD, we very nearly went with a man who recorded in live spaces, such as churches, using one large mic, similar to the way Del McCoury performs. He gets incredible results and you end up with a very "live" feel. We used the studio, but are seriously considering this for our next CD.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: mattkeen
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:23 PM

jeffp, phil and treewind are right (probably cos their professionals)

Guest, Euthry etc etc doesn't know what they are doing, but is entitled to an opinion just the same.

One mic pointing at the 12 fret about a foot away is a good place to start

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Nick
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:16 PM

Well I am no expert at all but like to tinker. I have a VERY basic setup (XP Home computer - standard Avance AC97 soundcard - 2Ghz computer - Reaper software - VERY cheap microphones - and it has the two mics mixed through an old tape recorder!) but the guitar sound that I get is reasonably clear for what cost basically nothing.

This is a little clip of something I am working on at the moment that might make you go "well mine sounds much better than THAT". It's recorded with a couple of mics and has a little compression and reverb thrown in afterwards. Excuse the mistakes and squeaks but as I said it's something in progress - it should stream from this link : Acoustic guitar (on listening again it has too much reverb on it as well as too many errors :)!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM

Thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions.

Will try them out over then next few nights (probably Wednesday evening will be the first real opportunity for me to get into the studio).

Thanks again to all.

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 07:18 AM

I was going to record on Weds to, but England v Switzerland is on the BBC

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 09:26 AM

Hi

More info needed from you!

what mics are you using? "semi-decent condenser mics" doesn't really tell me anything. Mics have different sounds. For instance, the AKG C4000B is a decent condenser mic, but it has a very dark, boomy sound to it. It wouldn't do justice to, say, a mandolin or banjo in my opinion. That's why I recently upgraded to an AKG C414B XLS. (Which you can put basically anywhere and it will sound brilliant. And it's totally noiseless)

I second all recommendations on mic placement. Try everywhere. Different heights too. I sometimes record guitars with the mic not even in front of the guitar: sometimes positioning the mic in basically the same place as your ears pays dividends. (It is after all, the position you yourself hear your guitar from)

Stupid question, I know, but you are supplying phantom power to the mic, right? Does it have switchable settings (omni/cardioid etc)? Does it have a bass roll-off switch?

As far as computer noise goes, I can recommend buying an Apple Mac. My iBook is silent as the grave. And portable too. When I run out of hard drive space on it I back-up to a USB hard drive. For editing I plug in a larger monitor to spare my eyes staring at a teensy screen. (Though I'm thinking of gettting a Mac Mini anyway). For anyone yet to invest in a computer for recording acoustic instruments at home, i'd recommend getting a mac.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Bernard
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 10:14 AM

For acoustic damping in my home studio I bought some cheap 'sapele print' indoor quality doors (about six quid each from the local timber yard) and covered them in carpet using a staple gun.

Some I screwed to the walls, and others I can move around as needed.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM

Matt

Mics are 2 off Studio Projects B1, cardoid (not switchable to omni), low cut facility 6dB/Octave at 150 Hz or 75Hz (at the very first attempt last week, didn't use that....). Seemed to have fairly reasonable write-ups for an entry-level mic, particularly for accoustic instruments. Was only using 1 mic for my 'first attempt last week'.

Interestingly, I was beginning to wonder just how different the guitar sounded from the 'audience' side relative to how it sounded to me as the guitarist listening effectively from above, not from the front of the soundboard....



http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/b1_tech.html

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: matt milton
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 10:41 AM

OK, I don't know those mics (or indeed the brand). But if there's a low cut switch it's worth trying it – those switches are supposed to only cut out very low 'rumble' frequencies but in practice on a lot of inexpensive mics they do seem to alter the sound quite radically. Sometimes in a good way, particularly if it's brightness you're after.

Try recording using both of them (as many others have suggested) placed in quite different places. Then experiment giving each track different stereo panning positions in whatever software you're using (do this with headphones on) and you may find you end up with a nice rich guitar sound.

Others have also mentioned compression. Not something I know a great deal about, but most software packages have some built-in standard compression effect –– it's usually worth adding a very small amount to smooth things out.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: GUEST,Phil b
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:04 PM

Vocals on a budget. Old dodge no73. I still occasionally do this. Get a standard Sm58/57 (A new one I.E. not gigged) 60/65 quid. Either beg borrow or steal a Tandy PZM if you can find one or buy a new Maplin boundary mic (Same principle) £25 ish and readily available. Set the boundary/PZM up on a flat surface behind the 57/58 and record the voice with both mics. Mix in the PZM behind the 57/58. Its a crude but effective way of providing the high transients associated with expensive tube mics. I've used this old technique (Dunno who dreamed it up) in the last six months with a very shouty Rock ,n roller despite having the luxury of Neiumann AKG and MXL options and the result is excellent. Saves investment in mics that will otherwise cost £500/1000 and allows you to get good results while you decide what your ultimate mic purchase may be. Oooops, also Maplin do a proper gooseneck breath shield for under £10. Well worth it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:22 PM

Hi:
   Look for Bheringer C2. That's a matched pair of stereo mics. They are much better than they deserve to be at the price. Aim one at the 12th. fret and the other, lower down on the guitar.
AKG makes an excellent, affordable 1" condenser mic., the AKG Perception 100 or 200.
Mind you, I would record guitar and vocals at the same time. You can use them as ghost tracks or keep them, depending on your performance.
I had an Alesis but couldn't get it to work with Vista. Had inserts and Pad switches if I remember correctly.
Turn the recording level down to an acceptable level on your Alesis. This will get rid of the booming and other distortions. Look at your wave pattern. It should stay comfortably within the lines.
3" from the vocal mic and use a Pop Filter. Same rules apply for volume levels. Stay well within the lines. Turn the channel down on the Alesis to achieve this.
Once you have recorded a good, clean sound then and only then, should you be starting to add effects, E.Q>, Reverb etc..
Now, TINKER!
Cheers!
Jim

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:25 PM

Hey Nick.....nice piece!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM

I mean Behringer. Doy!

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 12:32 PM

I like the Joe Meek JM-27 small diaphragm condensor mikes for acoustic guitar. There's somebody on ebay who sells a matched pair with stereo bar and shock mounts for $100 American. Very crisp and clean.

If you put reverb or compression on, a good rule of thumb is turn it up til you notice it, then back down til you don't. Listen to it the next day and tweak from there. I've always found my first adjustment is too much.

Spend some time playing with stuff and have fun with it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:56 AM

Thanks to all of you.

Hoping to get into the studio tonight, so will try out as many of the ideas as I can....

Will let you know how I get on

Thaks again

OF

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: OldFolkie
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:32 AM

Hi All

Update aas promised....

Had a session in the studio last night, with brand new set of D'Addario's on my beloved Garrison Geeetarr, threw some blamkets over the wardrobe doors and the window to absorb reflections, and set up for 24 bit recording.

As suggested, tried various Mike positions, and stereo micing.

The arrangement I liked best was:

1st mic 'over the shoulder'
2nd mic around 12th fret, but angled toward the nut.
Both mics with low cut switched in.

The difference in the sound was absolutely awesome - much brighter, far less boom, pretty well exactly as i wanted it to sound instead of sounding like a £25 guitart with strings that had been on for 10 years!

Only slight problem is that the gains on both mics were wound fairly well up - not quite into the region where significant noise was being produced, but not far off it....

Being totally new to recording, found out that I'm not quite used to recording just a pure guitar track, then overlaying vocals as a second take - was having to spend much more time thinking about what I was playing than when I just play and sing together.

So, put a pop filter on 1 mic, and quickly threw down a combined vocals & guitar track. Despite the usual factor of not being quite used to my own voice yet, it didn't sound toooo bad. Idea is to use that as a 'ghost' track to record subsequent separate tracks for rhythm guitar, vocals and lead guitar (or possibly mando), the 'ghost then being left out of the final mix.....

Really got the bug now - can't wait to get back in there and have another session.

So thanks again to you all for all your help. It's been superb and probably saved me several dozens of hours of frustration!

Rgds

Old Folkie

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: treewind
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:59 AM

Well done! It's always heartening to hear of a careful session of mic positioning experiments ending up with a real result. Your ears are your most important and valuable piece of audio equipment and you have used them well.

I'm sure you are aware that recording a "guide track" and adding the other parts to it, finally losing the guide in the final mix, is also a well tried and tested technique.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tech: Help Recording Accoustic Guitar & Vocals
From: mrmoe
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:31 AM

It's taken me almost a year to get the guitar and vocal sound I want in my recording....guess I've always been lucky to be around people who knew more than me.....the best advice I could give is to listen to people who know what they're talking about and experiment.....the advice above about the AKG Perception mics is a good one.....I'd go with the Perception 200's since they have a bass roll-off (very helpful with acoustic guitar).....mic that acoustic in stereo for a nice full audio image.....check out "spaced pair A" at this web sight http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html good preamps will be very helpful....the Behringer mic-200's are inexpensive and quiet, and have great "valve" settings.....