Pianos In Folk Music

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Nick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:20 AM

There was a lot of piano played in a lot of the Transatlantic Sessions (1 to 3) and I thought a lot of that worked remarkably well. A lot of Scottish music works remarkably well with the piano as an accompanying instrument (Fiddlers Bid are a favourite of mine at the moment). Capercaillie feature keyboards a lot and that seems to work for me.

Some examples - Sam Lakeman, Cara Dillon and Paul Brady or Cara Dillon again or Ae Fond Kiss - Karen Matheson or Julie Fowlis

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:46 AM

"Don't think of it as a piano, think of it as an 88-string guitar" (Tom Lehrer an piano and folk song)

RtS
(a virtuoso on the pianola!)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:51 AM

So many piano players do seem to stop once they've learnt those three chords and yet a good player can really lift the sound. I spent an evening at a dance near Boston listening to the playing of Jacqueline Schwab and was entranced by her music. Peter Barnes is another whose playing lifts the sound. Andy Thorburn does similar in Scotland. But the Dum-chinging piano sound either has me switching off or going somewhere else. Unfortunately most Scottish dance bands seem to like Dum-Ching.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:05 AM

Nick
Thanks for putting the link to Cara Dillon & Sam Lakeman - Garden Valley.

That is such a beautiful version.

The last time I saw that sung at Faldingworth Live by John Blanks and Jane Kitchen. They did such a beautiful version of it as well. John also does that on his own as well and again it is beautifully done.

Brings tears to the eyes.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Moonmoth
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM

Fiddles sound pretty awful in folk music when the player only knows how to play Beethoven, Bruch, Mendellsohn etc.

As with any instrument, surely it's the musicianship behind a piano that makes it 'bad' or 'good'? (Which are, of course, subjective terms anyway!)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: banjoman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:35 AM

Pianos are OK in the right place - but thats not in most folk music scenarios.
I have found that piano players are in the most part very unweildy and not willing to alter anything to enable other instruments to join in. EG its difficult to play some pieces in certain keys on guitar/banjo/recorder etc and where we would be happy to change key to accomodate, we have never yet found a piano player who would.
Played as a sol instrument thats fine - but otherwise NO

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:39 AM

I am tempted to say something Paul LOL No I mustn't otherwise I will get banjoed. :-)

I'll get me coat, but one last thing, maybe you haven't looked around enough, to find that special person who can accomodate your requirements.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:08 AM

Les,

Are you talkin' to me or banjOman post above yours?

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:12 AM

Oh Bugger. Sorry Paul LOL :-)

Banjoman and Banjiman - maybe you two should form a duo :-)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Busy Lizzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:14 AM

I only read the first few messages here, but all I can say is, June Tabor 13th June 2008 with Grand Piano played by Mark Emmerson, and June 14th 2008 Jonathan Kelly with Grand Piano, in St Michaels CHurch Middlewich as part of Middlewich Folk and Boat Festival 2008, watch for full line up in the next few days!
Pianos in folk music indeed!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:23 AM

Busy Lizzie....are you actually trying to attract people to Middlewich by threatening them with 2 grand pianos? LoL.

I actually love June Tabor, but would love her more without the piano!

Seriously, good luck with it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Marje
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM

Pianos seem to be prominent in a lot of Scottish traditional bands, and they are much favoured in Scottish country dance music.

I can't say I like it much - there's something about those plonky descending bass chord sequences that irritates me - but it would be wrong to say the piano has no place there. It evidently has a very important place in the hearts of the Scottish dancing community.

Marje

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Busy Lizzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:05 AM

Hello Banjiman no, no, just one £22k's worth of grand piano, hired and insured for 2 nights! I have never been fortunate enough to see June Tabor live, so I have to run my own festival in order to get to see all the artists I like! On saying that, I'll probably be too busy running around doing festival director kind of things and not get to see her again! Ha! Ha!
Liz

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Busy Lizzie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:12 AM

p.s. Banjiman you wouldn't be a banjo player then??

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Walkaboutsverse
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:17 AM

I'm not certain on this issue...but singing around the piano is, of course, a strong tradition in itself. And, for what it's worth, I practice (and have posted on myspace) English folk songs with electric-keyboards set on "piano" - playing just the top-line melody with both hands (in the understanding that English folk-music, at least, has, for centuries, been the repetition of a relatively simple melody, for singing and/or dancing).
P.S: singing Christmas carols around The Cumberland Arms upright-piano is always enjoyable.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Hi Busy Lizzie.....I may occasionally pick the banjo......... (ask my wife!)

As far as I am aware there are no pianos coming to the KFFC Winter Warmer Weekend which I'm involved in organising, I have to confess to one in the dining room though.....but I don't (can't) play it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Twinkle fingers
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:56 AM

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Nick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM

>>I have found that piano players are in the most part very unweildy and not willing to alter anything to enable other instruments to join in. EG its difficult to play some pieces in certain keys on guitar/banjo/recorder etc and where we would be happy to change key to accomodate, we have never yet found a piano player who would.

And when you ask them to retune their piano to your banjo just look at their faces...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Ref
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:47 AM

Hey it's about Folk Music, or folks' music. If people get pleasure sharing and trading songs around a Steinway Concert Grand, then it's no more or less appropriate to "Folk Music" than doing so around a battered, forty-year-old Martin guitar.   I'd more enjoy a fight about the merits of singing music together as opposed to sitting passively while someone else presents their solo "interpretation." Also, spare me the Ralph Vaughan Williams and aaron Copeland versions of traditional folk music. They're over-orchestrated crap!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rockhen
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

I think it depends on the the piano player and whether the piano is in tune. In my humble opinion, as a player of the said wonderful instrument, if you notice the piano,too much, if being used to accompany a vocalist or instrumentalist...it is not being played sensitively. It is an art to accompany someone.

If played with other instruments to be part of a band for example, it CAN drown everyone out.. but so can many other instruments. I know some fiddle players, for example, who have to always take the lead and play it just a touch too loud. I also know those who play sensitively and know just when it is ok to go off on a solo and when to hold back. Same with accordions, which I also play, (Hey! How unpopular can I make myself? Lol!)...and guitarists etc etc.

I think a piano is seen as an instrument not available to all, so is viewed with resentment by some, and that has contributed to its unpopularity with some but that would be the subject of another thread. If folk music is music of folk, I think it shouldn't be exclusive to certain instruments.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:07 AM

There are two things wrong with a piano:

1) It can easily drown out an acoustic guitar, so piano players, like banjo players, consider it their duty to do so, just to prove the size of their balls.

2) Like Stringsinger said, you can't throw it over your back and hop a freight train. You can't bring it to a campfire sing around, either.

I feel pianos are great instruments in their place. That place is either a concert hall or a whorehouse. I'd like to learn so that I could go to whorehouses and have something to do in my old age.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rockhen
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:10 AM

"I feel pianos are great instruments in their place."
What is their place, now? I do not know a single place where I could go and play a piano, that is in tune. That is why I take mine with me. (Don't worry, Peter, I'll leave the second venue you mention, to you, btw!) ;-)

Progress with technology, will mean that the current high quality electric pianos that are being produced, now, will eventually evolve into an acceptable replacement, once they are refined and become less expensive, or at least, an alternative to traditional heavy acoustic varieties. Then, I believe, there will be a change in the attitude by many towards pianos. They are seen as instruments that do not fit into folk music because people are not used to hearing them played because they are so difficult to take to places.

My piano has been played round a campfire and many other locations, from concert hall, pub, back of a lorry, and I do not feel that I plonked it and wrecked the music of others. I am open minded about music and I think pianos can be a valid part of folk music, if they aren't driven by a plinky-plonker. (musical term)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:46 PM

"England" by Ralph Mctell

The Kilfenora Ceilidh band started EVERYTHING with a 2-beat piano vamp and the thing played the rhythm aall the way through aall of the songs while 32 fiddles played the tune and the Bodhran player made the tea

June Tabor kissed uz on the cheek once when we were both VERY much younger - She wadn't remember, but aall nivvor forget!!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:06 AM

I bet that made your knees shake GP :-)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Saro
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:56 AM

Just thought I'd add another fantastic paino player to the List. Andy Johnson is capable playing excellent cailidh music as siginificant but never dominant part of a band (with various Tabbush family members) and can also be heard accompanying Carolyn Robson on some of ther CDs. Always worht a listen in my view - unless of course you just hate pianos...
Saro

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM

I'd quote Catherine Roberts' "Girl with the Bonny Brown Hair" and much on the albums of Bill Jones (though she's taking a bit of a break for family things at the moment) as good examples of keyborad backings.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:17 AM

Oooh Cathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman - one of my favourites.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 09:53 AM

Awww! Villan!!

It wez nigh-on 30 years ago in a tiny folk club in Fareham, capacity crowd and she'd 'ripped the room to shreds'

Aah wez MC and wez totally in lurve with her and as I closed the evenin' and just before her encore she leaned toward uz and just kissed my cheek.

Aah didn't come doon for a week and aah didn't see mah forst wife for three days...... then the swellin' went doon in the left eye!!!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:11 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM

It evidently has a very important place in the hearts of the Scottish dancing community.   

And they are welcome to it...

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:43 PM

I wonder if the anti-piano crowd would actually walk out of a gig if the performers brought a piano onto the stage?...I bet they wouldn't*LOL*

Charlotte (piano player of fairly long standing)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Curmudgeon
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

'The Kilfenora Ceilidh band started EVERYTHING with a 2-beat piano vamp.'

It didn't and still doesn't!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

Charlotte (piano player of fairly long standing)

Just like Jerry Lee Lewis, then?

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's short Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:17 PM

actually I'm not as tall as The Killer *LOL*

Charlotte (still growing into her 88's)

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 04:36 PM

Yes, Charlotte, as said above, I walked out of a performance at Ely in 2007 by some big name band whose name I forget, when the piano started to intrude (ie when playing it started).

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:33 PM

Charlotte,

....erm, I might not like pianos (in folk music) much , but walking out when someone is performing would just be rude. So you are right, I wouldn't........especially if I'd paid to get in!

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

If it was good enough for Walter and Daisy Bulwer then its good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM

How an instrument is played ,is imo,The Important thing.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM

It's all a matter of taste Richard. Gui-sodding-tars do the same for me as pianos do for you. I don't walk out - but my brain switches off immediately and goes somehere else for the duration.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: banjoman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:21 AM

In an effort to avoid any more confusion I AM BANJOMAN (alias Pete) and not BANJIMAN whoever that is. I have been posting on Mudcat for many years but in future will sign off as Pete on any of my postings.
PS I have hundreds (seems like itaccording to my wife) of banjos which I have made or restored if anyone is interested

I stand by my previous message about pianos

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:54 AM

John Tams and Barry Coope use a guitar and a keyboard. They are excellent, as anyone who has heard them will be able to attest.

I play regularly with a piano player, who uses a digital piano, and he too is excellent.

The 'drawing room' type stuff with the posh voices and the evening dress is about as far away from my idea of the music as can be.

So aye, they can be marvellous, or they can be twee. Depends who's playing it.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:55 AM

Polly Bolton employed TWO wonderful pianists in her Band. John Shepherd regularly played piano on dates so Steve Dunachie usually played violin, viola or guitar. They lived in Ludlow and a good example of their work is A Shropshire Lad. It's their setting of the poems of A E Housman (with additional verses read by Sir Nigel Hawthorne). They offer their individual arrangements that are completely in sympathy with the words. Other recordings are devoted to traditional folk song and are just as successful.

Planxty travelled with a very heavy harmonium that suffered badly at the hands of their roadies. It steadily lost parts until it eventually expired. However, the roadies' objection was to its weight rather than its sound.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:16 AM

The piano is a fantastic instrument, and vastly under used in folk music. I remember listening to Nic Jones' recording of "Master Kilby" and thinking that Nic may be a great folk guitarist, but his guitar sounded so weak compared to the rich full sound coming from Helen Watson's piano. Of course, those much maligned "new age" pianoists have made some beautiful recordings of Christmas songs/hymns and many trad songs such as "The Water is Wide" and "Shenandoah". By the way, shanties would sound fantastic on the the piano - in the hands of the right musician.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Banjiman
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:21 AM

It looks like I might have to admit to being in the minority, I've been trying June Tabor therapy.......but I still prefer the songs without piano,

Still, largely a civilised and interesting debate.

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 03:34 AM

Tunesmith, you are joking, right?

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 05:47 AM

If it wasn't for the piano I wouldn't have been taught to sing all those wonderful folksongs at school.

BTW - anybody possess any of the Cecil Sharp songbooks? Check out the arrangements by Alfred Moffat, they're for - piano!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:00 AM

Yur on shaky ground quoting Cecil Sharpe's arrangements as 100% evidence of authenticity and good practice round here

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:57 AM

Richard: you clearly lack the ability to imagine!

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 06:57 AM

Matt - I was merely making an observation. I leave it to others to draw their own conclusions.

Subject: RE: Pianos In Folk Music
From: oggie
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 07:30 AM

I have fond memories of Johnny Handle playing "Cushy Butterfield" on a beat-up upright! Sounded great!

Why is that keyboards (usually used for floaty, drony backgrounds, OK I generalise) seem to be acceptable but pianos aren't. I much prefer a well played piano.

Steve