John Lennon - Folk Singer

Subject: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:23 PM

We need him back again

John's Folk Music

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:48 PM

So, let's get this straight. You're saying that John Lennon was a folk singer and 'we' need him back?

(i) Where is the evidence that he was a folk singer? The 'YouTube' clip that you cite seems to have nothing to do with folk music.

(ii) Who, exactly, "needs him back" - who is 'we'?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:00 PM

"You're saying that John Lennon was a folk singer and 'we' need him back?"

Yup! :-) Got it in one!

"Where is the evidence that he was a folk singer?"

On the Youtube video there

"The 'YouTube' clip that you cite seems to have nothing to do with folk music."

Bet you wouldn't say that if Dick Gaughan were singing it. ;-)

"Who, exactly, "needs him back" -"

We do.

"Who is 'we'?"

You and me, them, us, we. This apathetic world that has ceased to care, ceased to take to the streets, ceased to have 'a voice'


So tell me, as I'm pondering at present, if you'll pardon the expression.

What's the difference between Bob Dylan and John Lennon?

If this thread had had Bob's name on it, I doubt you'd have twitched a muscle....

Here's another great folk song of his, that inspired and motivated 'the people'

Another of John's Folk Songs

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:07 PM

Cuddles, I admire your bravery.

I once sang a Lennon song in a folk club and was jeered by a 'folk singer' who complained that it wasn't 'folk'

He went on to sing 'It's a Hard Life Wherever You Go' by Nanci Griffith, which apparently is!?!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

No you guys have got it wrong, Folk music is about a tradition of middle class guys and their kids singing songs that nobody outside of some gipsy famililies and two folksinging families have ever heard of. dance tunes nobody dances to.

Its very exclusive and you don't count. Live with it.

As for getting your music on a BBC folk programme, forget it. Its been sewn up for years. There are people on mudcat who will spit in your eye rather than admit real folk into folk music. Your music isn't folk music. You aren't a folk. I have it from experts.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:49 PM

A genuinely funny and incisive post, WLD.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:55 PM

Apropos of not very much, latterly I just can't seem to get "Nowhere Man" out of my head...I don't even know whether this one was Lennon's or McCartney's, but a timeless, poignant and eminently hummable melody nonetheless (as good a criteria for "f*** music" as any, IMHO).

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:57 PM

How do you know THAT'S a Folk Song ??? ---   I Never heard a Horse sing it !!!

Folk songs are songs that Folk sing !

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Neil D
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:17 PM

I first heard "Working Class Hero" on an early Thanksgiving morning at a low time when I felt like nothing of the sort. It reached inside me and grabbed my heart. Like, wow, somebody gets it!
This song has always been something very personal to me and I play it every Thanksgiving so I don't forget the old times, the sad times, the bad times, the high times. So I don't forget the true human voice that was torn from our lives well too soon.
    No other song has ever touched me like that and I am so past caring whether it is a folk song or not. It can however, be a real hoot reading some of you all arguing about it so....carry on.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:23 PM

'Nowhere Man' is definately a Lennon song. Paul may have helped some on the lyrics.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Rogthedodge
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:27 PM

It's a good song but not a great song, it's certainly not folk music.

'You' may need him back but 'we' don't

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 07:50 PM

Cuddles, thanks for the links. I love remembering the passion and bravery in wanting to make a CHANGE back then. I was just young enough to not get to participate very much, but I DO remember it and I love Lennon's songs. One of the saddest days of my life was the day he was murdered.

I think this thread probably broke the record in how quickly the negative slagging off started. It's a shame...Mudcat used to be a kinder, gentler place, esp. in the music threads. What must newcomers think of it nowadays.

I still can't listen to THIS ONE without crying.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

When "us" lot have gone - and the some of the traditional songs (to the youngsters)i.e "Have you heard how the wars began"? etc etc become irrelevant another generation will be playing Beatles songs for evermore.
There are Places .....(In my mind)- a great folk song,and not easy for the 3 chord player - have a go. !!
It will be their day(s) and nothing we can do about it.....

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 08:27 PM

It's kind of flattering that people see songs that have 'social conscience' as folk, and people who sing those songs as folksingers.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,QuestionMark
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 11:56 PM

Are y'all forgetting John Lennon was in an English skiffle band before the Quarrymen and then the Beatles. Seems to me, English skiffle music was a direct descendant of the folk music, ala Rock Island Line, etc. Lennon played music in the folk realm before he played rock n' roll. Has one also forgotten the headlines of "The Beatles Go Folk", circa the Rubber Soul album...much primarily having to do with Lennon and his meeting up with Bob Dylan. Seems to me, when the Beatles first came to America they were very enthused about hoping to meet not only the early blues artists (folk musicians, also), but also were very aware of The Kingston Trio (although they were referenced only as the folk trio who was so popular in America.) Plus, Lennon's regularly contributed acoustic guitar work in both the Beatles' music and in his solo years. Seems to me, he also originally played the banjo his Aunt Mimi taught him(though, I've never been clear if it was a tenor banjo or a 5 string) before he played guitar. Am I missing something here? It isn't far fetched to consider Lennon as a folkie or at least highly influenced by folkies.

QM

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:11 AM

John Lennon... back from the dead...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXILMn7fk7g

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:44 AM

"If this thread had had Bob's name on it, I doubt you'd have twitched a muscle...."

Yes I would - Bob Dylan isn't a folk singer either!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:03 AM

Sedayne, sorry but that video, to me, is highly unpleasant.

Folk music, again, to me, is music sung by people, whoever they may be, which relates to what is happening around them. Songs that you can get an idea of history from and especially songs that the 'ordinary' person of that time can relate to.

They can be songs about local dances, birds, hedgerows or wars. They can be about unrest or about how society has been so unhappy and the causes behind that unhappiness, it doesn't matter.

A folk singer, personal opinion once more, is one who takes his/her observations about the time they live in, out to the people.

An exceptional folk singer is one who is able to rouse passions in those people, so much so that they will take to the streets in a determination to try and change their world.

When I showed my daughter the 'Give Peace A Chance' video she couldn't believe how people took to the streets back then, how they took it into their own hands to try and change the world, and how they managed it too in some case, such as helping to bring about the end to the Vietnam War.

Now, The Sound Of Silence has never been so deafening!

We have let it all go, we have turned away, buried our heads. And the generation who DID take to the streets back then seem to have given up, become jaded and indifferent, apathetic and bitter.

Where is their belief?
Where is their passion?
Why was it not passed down to their children?

Sorry Shimrod, but we need the people and songwriters like Lennon back, we need those with the belief that Lennon had, that the world CAN be changed, and it can.

If John Lennon were here today, looking at what was going on around him, I doubt very much that he'd be silent. I don't hear Dylan's voice raised in anger anymore, I hear no-one's voice, just this deathly, deathly silence.


Tony Stringfellow

From Tony's blog, his poem that asks the question we should all be asking:

VOICE? by Tony Stringfellow


"I hear no voice

As I turn my ears to the crowd,

Just a silent muttering

Sighs of discontentment in a maze of opinions.

Pale faces of placid expression

Mouthing words of shallow intention,

Eyes lost in a glaze of chat room jargon.

Where is your voice?



In a world wide connection

Comes the distraction,

Souls lost in a web of virtual backchat.

Faces masked by an illusion of user names and passwords.

Your words are safe within their cyber disguise,

The narrator cannot be traced,

He cannot be faced to account for his debate,

Where is your voice?


Lennon called for peace,

Geldof called for food to end starvation,

Bono called for money to banish poverty to extinction.

Dylan called to us all,

The angry protest singer

Who denied the label.

Joan Baez marched in anger

Hand in hand with each rebel.

Punks stood up to be counted - in zips,

The causes of youth dripping like spit from their lips.

They brandished sex pistols at authority

And were obscene with clarity.

They all had a voice!



Where is the spunk of youth?

It is twitching on keypads,

Over texted on phones,

Lost in reverberating drones and monotones

Of abbreviated conversation

With meaningless direction,

A wasted labrinth of vocabulary.

Where is your voice?



Where is the passion of protest,

The scream of discontent,

The eruption of brave intent

That gives you breath to breathe?

Where are the violent shouts of compassion

That vomits from the essence of youthful abstraction?

Where are the flag bearers of your minds?

Where is your voice?"

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM

John Lennon the voice of the people,Dont make me laugh.
Ewan Maccoll was a far better songwriter.
john lennon was a pop singer who in his latter years developed a social conscience,after he had finished doing ridiculous things with Yoko in bed[that was a waste of time].
but did he acheive any more or any less than Bob Geldof.less I would say

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:49 AM

I suppose I should have been inspired when the millionaire John Lennon sang

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

but he never shared any of his wealth with me.

DC

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:26 AM

Me thinks they doth protest too much....

John Lennon and his ilk came up with songs about things people could relate to, that people loved singing. Yet the people are not judged to be 'folk'.

Listen to a very large number of traditional songs without Martin Carthy's genius guitar and his singing ability - in the mouths of ordinary people, floorsinger types and they often come apart.

The words are unmemorable, they have neither wit not songwriting skill.

You take your choice of course, but I know which is my folk music.

Of course there are some traditional songs which we all like. But so many of these rediscovered classics should have been left where they were in the library.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:47 AM

Agreed weelittle. The song moves on and the song moves forward. The people choose which ones to remember and if a song lasts more than two generations it's a folk song in my opinion no matter where it came from.
The nay sayers are actually a folk song preservation society, somewhat akin to the National Trust. I think they do valuable musical work by their preservation, but they do damage by their judgemental attitude.
All movements in the arts end up with this split between the conservatives and the progressives and Mudcat exhibits this in abundance.
My reading about these schisms in the past always show that the progressives win, and then a generation or two down the road they become the conservators.
No doubt in the future there will be those defending Beatles songs and preserving them in aspic!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:47 AM

john lennon did not consider himself a folk singer,neither did any of the other Beatles, they were primarily Rock and Roll Singers who moved on and started to write some songs, some good, some not good.
[Listen to a very large number of traditional songs without Martin Carthy's genius guitar and his singing ability - in the mouths of ordinary people, floorsinger types and they often come apart]Quote WlD.
the same can be said for some of the Beatles songs And many other songs[Including a numberer of contemporary folk songs] ,when performed by mediocre performers they are exposed for what they are mediocre junk.
however many traditional songs have stood the test of time,and been processed by the folk and do stand up as good songs, despite poor performances by floor singers.
can anyone tell me HOW John and Yokos Love in changed the world ,a couple of self important, self indulgent,publicity seekers,making themselves look foolish. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:52 AM

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear - here we go again - I don't think I've got the energy for this!

You can make a great big box, label it 'Folk Music', and shovel everything that you like or approve of into it if you like - nobody can stop you. But it still doesn't make the contents of the box 'Folk Music'!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: dwditty
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:53 AM

After considerable research, I have found Lennon's one utterance that reflects the sentiment of ALL folksingers throughout the ages, thereby qualifying him for inclusion in that sacred circle:

"Genius is pain!"

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM

Wordy,you call the People progressive who describe John Lennon as a a folk singer.
John lennons songs are generally described as pop songs,they could be decribed as Art songs.
but whether they are good or not, they are not folk songs,because they have not been folk processed.,the lyrics are sung exactly as Lennon wrote them.
Stephen Fosters, Gentle Annie has become a Folk song,it has taken on new verses,and changed, it has been folk processed.
neither you, nor WLD,or Cuddles, clearly have any idea of what you are talking about.,just because you like his songs it doesnt make them folk songs
John Lennon would be turning in his grave if he knew he was being described as a folksinger.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: van lingle
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:01 AM

I don't care about the John Lennon public persona, it's the music and lyrics he wrote that endure. Along with his frequent collaborator Paul McCartney he was one of the best composers of the 20th century and to catagorize him as a Folk singer or a Rock and Roll singer diminishes his art. I've been listening to a lot of Beatles lately (after a decades long break) and am again astonished at their brillance.vl

P.S. IMHO

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 08:46 AM

"You can make a great big box, label it 'Folk Music', and shovel everything that you like or approve of into it if you like - nobody can stop you. But it still doesn't make the contents of the box 'Folk Music'!"

And no one has ever explained to me with any reliable certainty what is!

My box doesn't need a label. Labels are troublesome things, be gone with them, especially those little yellow ones, ugh!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:19 AM

C'apn I agree with you. But song moves on. If you're happy to believe that the evolution of song stopped with recording and notation, then fine. Enjoy the past. But once, the past was the present, and people wrote songs to express themselves and their times.Most of the people in Britain don't know what you define as folk songs, my urban parents certainly didn't, but they sang a lot, and some of those songs are still sung today, many of them over 100 years old. So when do the songs of the past qualify as the folk songs of the present, or is the museum closed so that no new artifacts can be added for the appreciation of the folks?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: bankley
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:56 AM

On Monday, NASA will be beaming Beatles song "Across the Universe" to Polaris , the North Star.. another first... it'll take over 430 yrs. to reach it's destination. Maybe some intelligent life form will hear it but send it back, cuz it ain't folky enough....or rocky enough, or jazzy enough.... then again.... hmmm

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:13 AM

ifJohn lennon is a folk singer because his music is popular,and alot of people sing it.then so is George Gershwin,Nat king cole,westlife,Ray Davis,CliffRichard ,Daniel ODonnell,RollingStones.and UncleTom Cobbleighand all.
Try the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: bankley
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:23 AM

"tagaroo day valla... nothin's gonna change my world"

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:50 AM

Big yawns to the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:03 AM

Yes, well big yawns to the "music sung by people, whoever they may be, which relates to what is happening around them" definition, too, which is utterly meaningless.

Or the

"A folk singer, personal opinion once more, is one who takes his/her observations about the time they live in, out to the people" definition, which applies to every songwriter, insofar as one can even figure out what it means. ("takes his/her observations...to the people?" what does this actually mean?)

Shimrod has it right: "it's folk because I like it, and if you say it's not folk it's an attack and you must not like it" seems to be Cuddles's position. Zzzzz.....

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:26 PM

I've found that people who yawn and find other peoples opinions and tastes boring generally are that way themselves.

"but don't let the truth get in the way of a good rant."

you're not doing too badly in the rant department yourself are you "Guest"?


We are all entitled to out opinions whether other people like them or not and John Lennon as a folk singer is a none issue right from the
start.

One more small thing...no singer of any musical genre, to my knowledge, has ever actually changed anything. The "Bono" Syndrome I believe it's called.

Charlotte (listening to music for the music)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Ernest
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:52 PM

I always wonder why people insist that someone they like has to be "folk". John Lennon and others wrote/made great music - no doubt about it.
But still they are not considered folk musicians by the general public (even if they started their career playing skiffle etc. - but hey: we all started music singing traditional children`s songs ;0)

Maybe those people think that pop music is something inferior and (even more horrible) commercial. Must have something to do with political opinions and views of "class" that are even more outdated than the traditional stuff they dislike....

Well, her`s some good news: "pop" is derived from the word "popular" which is in turn derived from the latin word "populus". Which means folk. Does that ease your pain a little?

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: alanabit
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:56 PM

I don't know why the punch up starts as soon as someone says what "folk music" means to himself or herself. I can't get worked up enough about it to start spitting bile at everyone, who has a different opinion to me. I think there is a good chance that the most enduring of twentieth century pop music will end up as folk songs. Just what the "folk process" is these days will need a bit of distance to define. We have experienced barely a century of being able to accurately record performances of music, so the future folk process looks likely to take a different form, to the one which was described in the nineteenth century.
To me John Lennon was a very entertaining rock singer, who was about a century short of becoming a folk singer. However, I can't get passionate enough about defending my definition that I want to start hurling abuse at anyone. Why is it so important that everyone else is wrong?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

"Well, here`s some good news: "pop" is derived from the word "popular" which is in turn derived from the latin word "populus". Which means folk. Does that ease your pain a little?

Quite right, Ernest...infact John Tams has referred to the genre as popular music, as well he should...it is VERY popular! *LOL*

Charlotte (popular with her children when she's handing out money)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM

Take the ordinary person in the street.

Ask them to sing a folksong.

OK that was disappointing.....

Now ask them to sing a Beatles song.

Well....what do you know!

Not that that proves anything.......but.....all down the ages the "pop" songs of the day have become the folk songs of tomorrow.....

I, too, can't be doing with labels...especially those very sticky ones that leave a layer of glue behind that you can't get off for love nor money!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:03 PM

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Waddon Pete - PM
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM

Take the ordinary person in the street.

Ask them to sing a folksong.

OK that was disappointing.....

Now ask them to sing a Beatles song.

Well....what do you know!

Not that that proves anything.......but.....all down the ages the "pop" songs of the day have become the folk songs of tomorrow.....

I, too, can't be doing with labels...especially those very sticky ones that leave a layer of glue behind that you can't get off for love nor money!


sorry Pete,the pop songs of the day all through the ages have not become the folksongs of tomorrow.Since when has, Rock around the Clock,OR Are you lonesome tonight,Catch a Falling Star,How much is that Doggy,become a folk song,they are what they are POP SONGS.
AND Furthermore if Ihad sung them at your folk club,at Croydon[or any of the other surrounding south east folk clubs]Iwould not have enjoyed all the return gigs that I got.
people went and go to folk festivals/clubs not to hear Tin Pan Alley and the aforesaid popsongs,but to hear folk music,be it JackHudson/ Dick Miles,Jo Anne Kelly or Willie Scott, we all know the approximate boundaries.
neither Paul Macca or John Lennon OR Perry Como are folk singers,They are singers of popular/art songs.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

"neither Paul Macca or John Lennon OR Perry Como are folk singers,They are singers of popular/art songs."

Precisely.....

But if you go further back in time........


Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM

I don't think that I've 'hurled any abuse' at anyone, or 'spat any bile' (eeeuucchhh!!). I just don't like to see things misrepresented, that's all, and, as all the 'it's all folk music' crowd SHOULD agree, I'm entitled to my opinion (... except, possibly, if it's different to theirs ...?).

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:24 PM

"One more small thing...no singer of any musical genre, to my knowledge, has ever actually changed anything."

Now that's where you're wrong Charlotte. I changed my underwear this morning.

Allan (listening to the music, for the off chance of pinching something)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:35 PM

The one thing I don't understand about all this is why everyone assumes folk music is sacred or the best music there is. Certainly it is great, but it ain't alone in greatness. People who think it is maybe should look a bit deeper into music. IMO.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

Oops Peace, that's like showing a train spotter the Space Shuttle

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

"Now that's where you're wrong Charlotte. I changed my underwear this morning."

My husband says the same thing....

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM

"My husband says the same thing...."

Ach, rumbled again!!

:)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:10 PM

Why did your husband change Allan's underwear?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM

Just to clarify: I love traditional songs. I even sang a few at my last paid gig. It's just that purists depress me a little...always have done, probably always will.

Maybe the thread title should be "John Lennon - Folk Songwriter"??

(Dives for cover)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM

Like Craig Ferguson's opening song ditty says...Tomorrow's Just a Future Yesterday...