John Lennon - Folk Singer

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Ernest
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 02:56 AM

Gene, that means that every music is folk. And it means that folk has no meaning at all.

I still disagree. "Folk" is one genre of music, "Opera" is another. As "Jazz", "Pop", "Rock", "Classic" etc.. Thats why.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 02:37 AM

"Italians love the opera. Does that mean that opera is italian folk?"

Yes. Why not?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Ernest
Date: 05 Feb 08 - 02:03 AM

thread creep: The Dillard`s version of "I`ve just seen a face" is on their cd "Mountain Rock".

Back to the original topic:

Italians love the opera. Does that mean that opera is italian folk?

This whole concept of claiming popular artists as being "folk" is - to quote sir jOhn - rubbish.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joseph de Culver City
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:24 PM

Charlotte said...actually I remember my father and late mother saying once that they'd see Rodney Dillard (the banjo player) at a venue somewhere and he did an incredible version of 'I've Just Seen a Face' (The Beatles as bluegrass)...

Only in the spirit of instruction (not correction)-Douglas Dillard was the banjoist in The Dillards, Rodney Dillard played guitar and was the cutup of the group.

Your mother was right (again), they did a lovely version of that song.

Check out the (non-folkically-correct) collaboration Douglas Dillard had with Gene Clark (original lead singer of the n-f-k group The Byrds) after he left The Dillards.

I'm sure that some of you have seen The Dillards on 'The Andy Griffith Show' over the years.

Peace

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Rog Peek
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:21 PM

Beatles song covered by folk singers:

"You Shoulda Known better" - Phil Ochs and Eric Anderson.

Rog

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

No apology required, Bruce...(by now I'm thoroughly confused as to whether you're responding to "how dare you" or my last post...one of the downsides of heavy irony being it doesn't always translate across cyberspace...I can only try!)

Nigel, that reminds me, I've GOT to check out Peter Bellamy. I don't think I've ever heard him, but from what I've heard ABOUT him I've a hunch I'd like his singing a lot. My version of "Nowhere Man" is still a little too tentative for pulic airing...I think perhaps I need to slow it down a bit to give my voice room to do the song justice. I do mean to look into the technology/knowledge required to upload videos when finances permit,though...I've a Youtube-based idea bubbling under, as it happens. I need a proper income, though!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:06 PM

Gene, I thought it was funny. Heck. Sorry I came across like I did.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM

Rise Up Singing, of course, is NOT a collection of folk songs, and never claimed to be. It's more of a campfire songbook for the 1970s.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: LeTenebreux
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:49 PM

Folk Songs Covered by the Beatles:

Maggie Mae, (are there any more?)

Songs by the Beatles that made it into "Rise Up Singing":

Yellow Submarine
Octopus's Garden
Here Comes the Sun
..........there are probably a few more....

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM

But I like good quality pop music, Peace 'n' Gene. If the folkies insist on nicking it all there'll be nothing left for the popkids but the dregs! I'm tempted to start a thread called 'Peter Bellamy: Now THAT'S what I call pop music'...

No? Ok then.

Though I sincerely believe St Etienne are a folk group.

Cheers

Nigel

PS Gene - how about putting your Nowhere Man on Youtube?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:44 PM

Sorry, Bruce, that was supposed to be humourous.

It's been a long day...

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:41 PM

Hi, Gene.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:28 PM

How DARE you!!!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:24 PM

I think too many people are taking themselves too seriously.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 03:22 PM

Nigel, I think I've stated elsewhere that I view "folk" primarily as an adjective denoting quality rather than type.

(But, as I'm feeling generous, I'll let the popsters keep anything by Broccoli Spears...I'm not on the crystal meth this early:))

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM

100,sorry leadfingers.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Waddon Pete - PM
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM

I wondered when the horse would show up!

I whisper but my horse doesn't listen!

Best wishes,

Peter . its no good whispering to horses
peter its the horses that need to talk,and tell us who is going to win the 3 50 at Uttoxeter

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 02:22 PM

Is nothing sacred, Gene? Aren't we allowed to keep any of the decent tunes for pop music?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Gene Burton
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 01:06 PM

Apropos of not a great deal yet again (apologies), I've found myself working up an acoustic arrangement of "Nowhere Man" over the last couple of days, 'cos it just won't go away. 5 chords is quite adequate, well within reach of a guitarist of only modest prowess, and the central melody is just so strong it realy doesn't NEED much doing with it. So, strong melody, good lyrics, has carried for more than 2 generations...still ticks all the boxes for a folk song as far as I'm concerned!

(Hides in a strategically-placed ditch)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:51 PM

I knew it, I knew it!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM

guest Allan at Work,employment of the double negative[TheCaptain aint no folksinger]means that he is.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM

I wondered when the horse would show up!

I whisper but my horse doesn't listen!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Allan at work
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:37 AM

"My own dear Mother, when I first bought 'Folk Roots, New Routes' said of the album 'how the Christ can you listen to that ?' "

My mother displayed a similar reaction to Trout Mask Replica filtering through the floorboards of young Allan's bedroom. My wife showed similar dismay, so too my daughter. My son fortunately loved it more than his dad, hence it's absence from my cd shelf! hmmm

The Captain ain't no folk singer!

Or is he?

DOH!

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 04 Feb 08 - 11:00 AM

I find that frequently Shimrod and I are in agreement. For this thread, and to my great surprise, I am in agreement with the good Captain Birdseye.

It seems to me - and this admits of neither argument nor challenge, for it is my opinion - that whether a song is a folk song, it's a bit like the elephant.

I know an elephant when I see one, but as for my describing it to you, forget it.

Similarly, I flatter meself that I recognise a folk song when I hear one, but I couldn't tell you why to save me life.

I saw the Beatles live at Oasis, South Street, Manchester, just before 'Please, Please Me' charted. Cost me 5/6 in real money. That's 27 & 1/2 pence in Mickey Mouse coinage.

I enjoy Lennon's music, whether with or without The Beatles. But, if he is a folk singer, and Britney whatserface and Mr Sinatra are folk singers, then my private is a bloater.

I never saw what all the fuss was about with Bob Dylan, though I do not deny your right to enjoy his work. I have posted previously that, similarly, I do not care for a fair bit of Ewan McColl's and Peggy Seeger's non-traditional work.

I have me own theories as to why 'Folk Music' was (and perhaps is) seen as 'exclusive'. My own dear Mother, when I first bought 'Folk Roots, New Routes' said of the album 'how the Christ can you listen to that ?'

It has to be listened to - it cannot be 'musical wallpaper' - not that I say that the Beatles, or Mr Lennon, fall into this category.

Folk music - FOR ME - it ain't. Wasn't it Satchmo - Louis Armsrong - who first said - All music's folk music - I never heard no horse do it ' ?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:36 PM

"Hey Jude" was a McCartney song, though credited to the duo...but let's not start a Macca thread, okay?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:51 PM

"yer point being what exactly?"

You were perched upon Ma and Pa's piano stool, there were typos, I tried to make a joke.. I failed.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:36 PM

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Stringsinger - PM
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:59 PM

Lenon is an important singer/songwriter but doesn't represent any specific culture.
He crosses over many. I really like him but the only song that is easy to sing is "Give Peace a Chance" if you don't do the first part of the chant. Oh well, maybe "Hey Jude" but it's not a folk song yet. When it gets kicked around for a few decades maybe it can claim folk status but today everything is "folk" in the public mind. Those wonderful old folk songs are being forgotten except for a few officianados who try to keep them alive. And many of the "experts" manage to piss off the public.

Frank
exactly the point I made earlier, his songs have not been folk processed,they are Art songs,some of them are good.
just because his songs are popular that does not mean they are folksongs and it doesnt make him a a folk singer either.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:06 PM

I suppose, by the definition "if everyone whistles/sings/hums them" their folk songs...then music hall ditties qualify...just a thought

Charlotte (hmmmm...father's papered the parlour)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:59 PM

Lenon is an important singer/songwriter but doesn't represent any specific culture.
He crosses over many. I really like him but the only song that is easy to sing is "Give Peace a Chance" if you don't do the first part of the chant. Oh well, maybe "Hey Jude" but it's not a folk song yet. When it gets kicked around for a few decades maybe it can claim folk status but today everything is "folk" in the public mind. Those wonderful old folk songs are being forgotten except for a few officianados who try to keep them alive. And many of the "experts" manage to piss off the public.

Frank

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM

yer point being what exactly?


I noticed one of the other court jesters, (there does seem to be alot of them here) has posted a Brittany Spears as folk singer thread....having a bad day are we?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:36 PM

Charlottle, you must take your laptop over to the table and stop resting it on the piano keyboard, your typing is becoming atrocious. ;)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

wI wonder if it's ever going to be possible for one single thread on the Mudcat website to actually proceed without an all round Mudslinging..or just maybe the mame of the website should be changed....

Charlottle (pondering this view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

Sorry Ruth. I was thrown by the fact that she hadn't mentioned Show of Hands at the start. I was just intrigued by the discovery that, as someone involved in running a folk club, I am part of a "select group of over-intense people". I didn't realise the power I wielded.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM

Cuddles is Lizzie Cornish?very very similiar style of writing anyway.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:27 AM

'Allan & Son' is now in the Youtube Permathread. :-)

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: van lingle
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:20 AM

Wow Allan, it's like hearing that tune for the first time,thanks.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:13 AM

Lizzie, the self-righteous indignation is really quite funny.

How am I victimising you by simply saying who you are?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM

"Please. It's unfair for people to hide behind multiple identities. Lizzie's been banned from this forum many times, and for good reasons. If she is going to post, why shouldn't people know who they're really talking to?"

I would say it is far more unfair for you to use a messageboard to 'victimise' one person. Pray tell, why do you not complain about every single 'Guest' on here, if such is your outlook? None of us know who a guest is. It doesn't bother me one iota. I do not know who you are or care either. All I have gathered, from the way you have hounded me, is that you have a problem with people who mention Seth Lakeman or Show of Hands, or who dare to have an opinion of their own. It seems that you pore over posts searching for this person, which strikes me as disturbing,sad and very unhealthy, however my sympathy lies with your victim, not with you.

Now, if you have nothing further to contribute to this thread, about this thread, perhaps you may wish to go elsewhere. For myself, I'm returning to watch Allan and his son sing their Beatles number on the Youtube link above, for it makes me feel very pleased this discussion was started.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:56 AM

Please. It's unfair for people to hide behind multiple identities. Lizzie's been banned from this forum many times, and for good reasons. If she is going to post, why shouldn't people know who they're really talking to?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: KeithofChester
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:36 AM

Joe McCarthy obviously trained you well.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:20 AM

Oh Snail, be realistic - this is Lizzie. WHen has she ever been able to justify her more bizarre allegations?

We've heard this rant from her endless times - each time complaining about the mainstream media's supression of political music, always complaining that the folk community is exclusive, often shreiking at the very people who are actually doing something to try and make sure people DO have access to folk and traditional music.

Blah blah blah...

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:18 AM

"and I know how important it is for those steeped in the tradition to endeavour to keep their music apart from other music, "

It is all in the above Mr. Snail.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 08:14 AM

Cuddles

That's one of the main problems with 'folk' music, for me, that it has been kept so apart by a select group of over-intense people. All they've done is ensure that young people aren't interested, don't know about it and don't give a darn. As many people as possible should be 'steeped' in the traditions of their countries, it should never be 'kept apart'

Would you like to supply some jusitfication for that bizarre statement?

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Cuddles
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 07:16 AM

"and I know how important it is for those steeped in the tradition to endeavour to keep their music apart from other music, "

That's one of the main problems with 'folk' music, for me, that it has been kept so apart by a select group of over-intense people. All they've done is ensure that young people aren't interested, don't know about it and don't give a darn. As many people as possible should be 'steeped' in the traditions of their countries, it should never be 'kept apart'

Music, I feel very strongly, does have the power to change the world, of course it does. If that music comes from one particular person, then of course they are/were the inspiration behind a movement that can/did spread like wild fire around the world.

It is I feel one of the main reasons why you no longer hear powerful, intelligent songs on the radio or tv any more, for those in power want a population where individuality, inspired free-thinking and anger is suppressed. They want a population that is nothing more than a vast well of non-thinking consumers who never question.

As I said way back, we need John Lennon back, but that is obviously impossible. However, his songs can inspire a whole new generation, as can the songs of many others. But they have no voice anymore, they have been silenced, by 'the powers that be' and by a generation that does what it's told, en masse, from cradle to grave.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: KeithofChester
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:43 AM

Rubber Folk is pretty good proof to me that Lennon & McCartney songs can certainly sound "folk". That Waterson: Carthy messed up Norwegian Wood a bit was a shame, but that was more than made up by John Tams treatment of Girl.

The older a song becomes, the less the artificial descriptions of "popular" or "folk" mater anyway.

Some folk manage to tie themselves up in knots as to whether it is folk or not by making a destinction regarding the lyrical content. However, I defy anyone to tell me what is so different as to the lyrical contezt of Girl and Greensleeves.

For those folk that say it's not "folk" unless it's been sung by someone associated with the Waterson or Carthy or Copper clans, well a deed poll changed John Winston Lennon into John Ono Lennon and I'm sure John Lennon-Carthy would have been feasible if he were still with us. Fortunately the buskers round me don't need to know if Eliza has covered a 40 year old song before they will play it and they won't in another 40 years either.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:28 AM

I've just tried scraping a kitchen knife up and down my mandolin fretboard Nigel, I think we're onto something here...

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:22 AM

Nice version, Allan. How about trying 'Tomorrow Never Knows' or 'I Am The Walrus' next!?

I love the later stuff by the Beatles, especially Lennon's songs. It's never occurred to me to wonder if they're folk or not. It still doesn't... I always thought of it as good quality english pop/rock, and none the worse for that. The folk question, in my view, is immaterial.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Timmy
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:22 AM

As the main part of this thread is going round in circles & disappearing up it's own arse I thought I'd just add a clarification to this comment

'One more small thing...no singer of any musical genre, to my knowledge, has ever actually changed anything. The "Bono" Syndrome I believe it's called.'

Obviously very few things ever get changed by one person or one action, however the Bono thing is interesting. Politicians generally are suckers for seeking "credibility" or "coolness" and Bono & others are on record as saying that what they can do is use their perceived celebrity to bypass the normal channels you have to go through before you get access to the real decision makers, enabling them to push issues they are concerned with direct to those that can make the difference. Campaigns like "Make Poverty History" would never have had the same access to politicians without the "celebrity" element.

It's also a lot easier for a politician to change their stance if they've been "convinced" by a high profile campaign promoted by "celebrities" than if the same is being supported by rival politicians. If a rival leads a campaign then any decision to support said campaign, is viewed as a victory for that rival - so a professional politician would be reluctant to agree regardless of the merits, but this is not a problem if its a Bono or Geldof fronting it.

In a similar way politicians can also use campaigns lead by "celebrities" to generate massive non-party-political support & publicity to pressure and cajole politicians from other countries to agree to support an issue. The Live8 concerts & Make Poverty History campaigns were just such a thing, with Tony Blair and others collaborating with the campaigns to generate public pressure on leaders of other countries to support their political aims.

So while 'no singer of any musical genre, to my knowledge, has ever actually changed anything' they can help to enable change which would be much more difficult to achieve through purely political processes.

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: AllanW
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 05:00 AM

Wow, I didn't quite expect that response. Thank you.

I've talked about the 'folk not folk' issue over the years as a music lover, a radio folk show presenter, a folk club organiser, a pal of many different sorts of musicians, and I know how important it is for those steeped in the tradition to endeavour to keep their music apart from other music, and I don't want or wouldn't want to step on their toes.

I just happen to be a bloke who likes songs and I'm fortunate that Liam has inherited much of that from me, with no bullying whatsoever. In fact when he went off to uni a few years ago I was forever hopping about in my room shouting 'where's me blimmin' Nic Jones cd gone now? - why couldn't he be into Portishead like other students?'

We just hear a song, love it, and play it. Whether it's folk is immaterial. I don't know if Lennon, or in the case of the song you just listened to, McCartney, are folk singers or not, I just know that some of their songs are gorgeous.

Thanks again
Allan

Subject: RE: John Lennon - Folk Singer
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Feb 08 - 03:40 AM

Brilliant AllanW. Absolutely delightful!