Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow

Subject: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM

Back when Johnny had a TV show, he once had Burl come on with him. They do several fine songs together, including a sweet rendition of Lorena, with lyrics very different than I had heard before


Johnny and Burl on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeeDOrZ8q58&feature=related


A

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:26 PM

I am listening to it as I write. Thanks, Amos, for posting and linking Ives' appearance.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Beer
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:41 PM

Wonderful, just wonderful.
Thanks Amos.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 09:58 PM

Sweet geeziz, what's with the friggin' gum? LMAO.....Its driving me nuts (short trip). Cash sure had some nutsy stuff at times and you had to hand it to him taking it all in stride. Ramblin Jack was hilarious on the show and June had a fit when she realized that Linda Ronstadt not only performed barefoot but she didn't wear panties either.   June went out and bought her some. I'm surprised June didn't show up and make Burl spit the gum out into her hand!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Beer
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 10:18 PM

lol Spaw

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Janie
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 11:06 PM

Enjoyed it, Amos. thanks!

(And Spaw - you beat me to it on the gum. Drove me nuts watching him chew his cud. (I confess, gum-chewing irritates the heck out of me any time.)

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: topical tom
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:18 AM

Beautiful harmony singing, Amos! Thanks so much for that jewel!

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:02 AM

Buryl Ives was my first exposure to folk music, and Johnny Cash was one of my favorite country singers. What a pair! Thanks for posting this my friend.

Didn't Ives help to blacklist Pete Seeger?

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:39 AM

That would be too bad. It's sad when clay feet come into view.

If you listen without watching the gum action it isn't bad. But it is a puzzle that he didn't spit it out before going on stage.

SRS

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:57 AM

According to this discussion it was partially true, but Burl's testimony was not what got Pete in trouble. And they made up before Burl died.


A

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:05 PM

I am on broadband, never have loading problems on youtube, but this one just isn't loading well. It keeps starting and stopping and the red thingie that moves to the right is v-e-r-y slow. I guess I'll try it later.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM

My understanding was Burl Ives suffered from serious dry mouth problems and he chewed gum constantly while singing to keep his mouth moist. Possibly caused by his heavy smoking of cigars. I saw a performance at the Chatauqua resort about 25 years ago. He mentioned the gum at some point and made a bit of a joke about it. I don't recall if this was during the performance or afterward. He died of cancer of the mouth in 1995, a possible connection.

Don

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:42 PM

Mine does the same.
I let it run through whilst I put the kettle on for a cup of tea. Then play it again. It works well that time and you have a nice cup of tea to listen to it with.

I've always liked them both.

Burl was never on the "Inside" so to speak with the others. But it was a wicked time and other people were forcing their hand.
Chas

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:58 PM

According to Wikipedia:

"Ives was identified in the infamous 1950 pamphlet Red Channels as an entertainer with supposed Communist ties.[11] In 1952, he cooperated with the House Unamerican Activities Committee and named fellow folk singer Pete Seeger and others as possible Communists.[12]"


The Footnote citation says the statement is based on the "Testimony of Burl Icle Ives, New York, N.Y. [on May 20, 1952]," Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Eighty-Second Congress, Second Session on Subversive Infiltration of Radio, Television, and the Entertainment Industry. 2 parts. Washington, D.C.: GPO, 1952. Part 2, pp. 205-228."

I have been able to find a reproduction of the actual testimony document.


A

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: bankley
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM

good to see the trailblazers again.... the gum doesn't bother me... Prine used to chew gum like that.... and Bobby Bare chewed plug, used to bring his spitoon with him on stage...
that kept the hecklers out of the first few rows at least...

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:10 PM

Further on the HUAC connection:

" In the 1950s, along with almost every other folk singer and many Hollywood entertainers, he ran into trouble with the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC), and the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. And although Ives was cleared by the committees, his testimony was bitterly criticized by some. Fellow folk singer Pete Seeger, as quoted in How Can I Keep from Singing, accused Ives of "fingering, like any common stool pigeon, some of his radical associates."

Ives did testify before the committee, but he volunteered to do so because, according to an interview with the New York Times, he was disillusioned with the party when he discovered that they were not, in fact, "professional do-gooders on a political level, as they have long masqueraded." While Seeger claimed that Ives talked to the committee "because he felt it was the only way to preserve his lucrative contracts," Ives stated that he believed that the party was an enemy of the country he loved. Although Seeger remained bitter towards Ives, and Seeger fans avoided Ives' recordings, Ives was not even the one who named Seeger or the Weavers to the committee."

From this biography at http://www.musicianguide.com/biographies/1608000249/Burl-Ives.html


A

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Gene
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM

LORENA

Key F

Note. Lyrics as sung by Johnny Cash and Burl Ives.

(F) THE YEARS CREEP SLOWLY (F7) BY, LO - (Bb) RE - NA,
(C7) SNOW IS ON THE GRASS A - (F) GAIN;
THE SUN is sinkin' LOW (F7) LO - (Bb) RE - NA,
(C7) FROST IS WHERE THE FLOWERS HAVE (F) BEEN.

The music's sad and low, Lorena
Happy sounds have left the day
The banjos softly play, Lorena
Where once they rang so loud and gay

I hardly feel the cold, Lorena
I pray this darkness soon will pass
we'll sing those songs again, Lorena
you'll be in my arms at last

NOTE:
Words by Rev. Henry DeLafayette Webster, music by Joseph
Philbrick Webster (no relation to each other). Written in
1857, This is a pre civil war song which achieved wide
popularity during the conflict. For some reason, the song
became a particular favorite of the Confederancy and, in
time, came to be identified with the Southern cause.

Hundreds of Southern girls were named for the song's
heroine, while several pioneer settlements and even a
steamship proudly bore the name. One Confederate veteran
claimed to have "heard it more during the war than any
other song."

J.P. Webster, creator of the melody, was a collaborator of
S. Fillmore Bennett, with whom he wrote several Civil War
songs, including "The Irish Volunteer" and "The Negro
Emancipation Song." Their best-known work, however, was one
of the most popular hymns of all time, "Sweet By and By,"
1868.

J.P. Webster also wrote, "I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets"
1860, which became, "Wildwood Flower."

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM

These notes are, I believe, a recap of the information gathered on various other threads about this song; but the lyrics in the Cash/Ives version are different except for the first verse.


A

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:57 PM

Ives was a scumbag who enhanced his career by destroying the lives of others.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM

It is remarkably slow - but click on the pause button on YouTube and do something else for a few minutes while the little red line stretches out a bit, and then push play,

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:52 PM

Scumbag? Nah, I think that's a bit harsh.

As I understand it, Burl Ives, like Pete Seeger and several others, had become disillusioned with the Communist Party. At the time, he was probably the best known of the bunch (several records out, a regular radio program, and he'd been in a couple of movies by then, playing, basically, himself), and as such, he was one of the first to be called to testify. He didn't know what the others were going to do, and he simply answered the committee's questions truthfully, assumed the others would do the same. He didn't know that Seeger was going to refuse to testify.

A few years later, Woody Guthrie visited Ives in Hollywood, stayed with him for awhile, and they talked a lot. They parted friends. When Guthrie returned to New York, when asked about Ives, he said, "Burl is one angry man!" "Oh? What's he so angry about?" Guthrie responded, "Burl is angry at himself!"

I tend to think that once Ives saw how Seeger responded to the committee, he wished that he had done that. If he had, the whole folk scene back then might have done a pretty interesting shuffling of personnel.

It's awfully easy for us to sit around "Monday morning quarterbacking" and from our lofty positions (not having been in the trenches at the time) make judgments about other people. But I think Burl Ives found himself in an untenable position and did what, at the time, he thought right.

Ives spent his final years living with his wife, Dorothy, in Anacortes, Washington, about 80 miles north of Seattle. His chewing gum because of a constantly dry mouth turns out to be a bit ominous, because in 1995, at the age of 85, he died of mouth cancer.

He was definitely a flawed man (hard drinker at times, and had an explosive temper), but he was a riveting actor (The Big Country, for which he received an Oscar, and a bravura performance in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof). I can't help but think of him fondly because he was the first folk singer I recall hearing on the radio, and some of the first songs I learned, I learned from his records. Other than, his, Susan Reed's, Richard Dyer-Bennet's, and Cynthia Gooding's (not counting Folkways and a few other esoteric labels, which were not available in most record stores), there were not that many folk records out in 1952. But Burl Ives had several.

He lapsed into some pretty schlocky songs later on, little more than light-weight fluff, but "Big Daddy" was most people's introduction to folk music back in the Forties and early Fifties.

So let's give him due credit.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM

Amergin,

Do you have some factual basis for this? I have cited two references above. One of them states he did not. Pete Seeger was bitter about him, but I would like ot know what the facts are if you have them.


A

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM

Don, I agree with you. Some of the songs he sang were firsts for me and I still have my worn little paperback of Burl Ives songs. We kids didn't know beans about the red scare then, nor of anyone who it may have harmed. My parents never mentioned nor did my schoolteachers. I loved his singing and his songs and still do.

I chew gum for the same reason...dry mouth, but not while I am singing.:-) Alice told me about a great product, which I have since ordered and received - Entertainer's Secret. It has worked well for me. BTW, the dentist told me chewing gum will also stimulate saliva which will wash away tartar deposits, more effectively.

I shall practice patience and wait for the thing to load. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:23 PM

Ah, so!

Amos, I just read your post of Feb. 2, 1:10 p.m. a bit more carefully, particularly:

"Ives stated that he believed that the party was an enemy of the country he loved. Although Seeger remained bitter towards Ives, and Seeger fans avoided Ives' recordings, Ives was not even the one who named Seeger or the Weavers to the committee."

Scratch my supposition that Burl Ives wished he had refused to answer like Seeger had. Considering his pretty strongly patriotic stance (but not necessarily conservative) both then and later, what you cited sounds more like it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:44 PM

These are two different songs alright.I got most of the original lyrics from the singing of Tennessee Ernie Ford, and the rest of them from a copy of Heart Songs.

Who ever says it can't happen here doesn't remember the McCarthy era. Scary stuff. You want a real scum bag? Tailgunner Joe, that lying drunken bastard.
I've always admired Pete for standing behind the 1 st amendment instead of the 5th.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:47 PM

Doesn't Burl sing a beautiful line in harmony - effortless.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 03:49 PM

I love the story that Burl Ives tells in his book Wayfaring Stranger, how he was in New York, rooming with a bunch of other music students, some of whom were going to Juilliard. As I recall, he couldn't afford Juilliard, so he was going to a different music school, taking voice lessons and struggling to learn songs in German, aspiring to be a lieder singer. He had his guitar with him, and would occasionally sing a folk song (one of a couple of hundred he estimated he had learned from his grandmother, or one he had picked up bumming around the country) around the rooming house, and some of the other students would look down their noses at the songs he liked to sing for fun.

One day, feeling a bit homesick, he took his guitar to a nearby park, sat on a park bench, and started singing some of the songs he had learned from his grandmother. He wasn't "busking," he was singing for himself. Soon, a few people paused to listen, and it wasn't long before he had a whole crowd there. He seized the moment and gave them an impromptu concert, thoroughly enjoyed the whole experience, as did his voluntary audience.

"Why," he asked himself, "am I killing myself trying to learn a whole bunch of songs that are foreign to me in more ways than one, when I already have a big repertoire of songs? My fellow students may sneer at these songs, but the crowd in the park really loved them!"

Major light bulb! He had found his niche.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Rog Peek
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:13 PM

As a child growing up, I saw him in films, and heard him sing. Never had the same admiration for him when I heard of his testimony to the HUAC.

Perhaps the gum was to do with the bad taste in his mouth?

Rog

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: freightdawg
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 06:49 PM

Thanks a lot Amos.

First it was Johnny and Burl, which led me to another Burl song, which led me back to Johnny, which led me to the Statler Bros., which led me to another Statler Bros.....

Done wasted the better part of an hour strollin' down memory lane.

Best hour I've wasted in a long time.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:10 PM

Don Firth said, in part:

He didn't know that Seeger was going to refuse to testify.

But Seeger didn't refuse to testify. I've heard a recording of his testimony before the committee. What he did was, he refused to talk about other people. He was willing to testify about what he personally had done, and so forth. While he would testify to where and when he appeared, he would not characterize the organizations or name other attendees. He gave, or offered to give, names of the songs he sang, and (no doubt with tongue in cheek) offered to sing any of them for the committee. They didn't take him up on it.

He based his refusal to play the committee's gain on the First Amendment, as noted. He was charged with contempt of Congress and convicted, yes, but the conviction was set aside on appeal. He was within his rights, said the court.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: ADD Version: Lorena (Johnny Cash/Burl Ives)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:23 PM

Gene asked me to add what I hear to his transcription. He's usually better at hearing things than I am, but here's what I hear:

LORENA
(Lyrics as sung by Johnny Cash and Burl Ives)

The years creep slowly by, Lorena,
Snow is on the grass again;
The sun is sinkin' low, Lorena,
Frost is where the flowers have been.

The music's sad and low, Lorena,
Happy sounds have left the day;
The banjos softly play, Lorena,
Where once they rang so loud and gay.

I hardly feel the cold, Lorena,
I pray this darkness soon will pass;
We'll sing those songs again, Lorena
You'll be in my arms at last.

---

Notes on last verse
I hardly feel* the cold, Lorena,
I pray this/the** darkness soon will pass;
We'll sing those songs again, Lorena
You'll be in my arms at last.

* alternate: "My heart may feel the cold"
**Cash sings "this," Ives sings "the"

source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeeDOrZ8q58&feature=related

---

This page (click) has a transcription from a Johnny Cash recording:

LORENA

(Charlie Williams)
« © '59 Central Songs, BMI »

The years creep slowly by Lorena snow is on the grass again
The sun is sinking low Lorena frost is where the flowers have been

The music's sad and low Lorena happy sounds have left today
The banjos softly play Lorena where once they rang so loud and gay

I hardly feel the cold Lorena I pray this darkness soon will pass
We'll sing those songs again Lorena you'll be in my arms at last

---

Digital Tradition version of "Lorena" is HERE (click)

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 07:37 PM

Don, I really appreciated what you had to say about Burl Ives. Too often, people pigeonhole public figures as "scumbags," and then discount them as totally worthless. Burl Ives made a great contribution to folk music. Yes, he did what it took to make a good living as a performer; and no, he wasn't heroic in the face of congressional hearings - but not everyone is born to be a hero and is able to sacrifice life and livelihood in the name of principle.
As you say, he was flawed - but most of us are.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: GUEST,Just read his
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 09:57 PM

I just read this by catspaw49 on another thread about Lorena which includes additional information not given here.


Subject: RE: Songs of the American Civil War
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:50 PM

Hey Rap.....Lorena was actually not all that southern and as a matter of fact was written (words) by a good Ohio reared boy of a lass he loved in Zanesville.   She eventually lived out her life down in Lawrence County. Here's some neat info from the Lawrence County history page written by the nephew of the man who wrote the lyrics, H.D.L.Webster:

LORENA
Lorena was a popular Civil War song. The lady for whom it was written lived in Ironton, Lawrence Co., Ohio.
Daily Oregon Statesman, January 14, 1906
By Dan. Webster
Submitted by: Martha J. Kounse

Perhaps one of the most popular of ante-war songs was "Lorena." The song has a history - in fact, several of them, no two alike, and yet, all claiming to be authentic. One of the most romantic of these histories was given to the public by Col. John A. Joyce, through the columns of the Washington Post, a few years ago. According to Col. Joyce the song was written by the Rev. Homer Webster, a son of the south; that it was written during the Civil war; that he was at one time pastor of a church in Pittsburgh; that he had as a member of his congregation a wealthy glass manufacturer, who had a lovely daughter named Lorena; that the young minister loved said daughter, and that she returned the affection, in short, that they mutually loved each other; that to satisfy her dying father, and persistent proud mother, she drowned the love of her soul, and tearfully married a millionaire; that soon after he left the chilling blasts of the north, drifted to Georgia and there enlisted in support of the "stars and bars," where he tried to forget his sorrows, but without avail, as was evident by the said song.

Now, in all of the above there are but two minor facts, and they are, the author was a clergyman and his name was Webster, but Henry D. L. Webster instead of Homer. Neither was he a "son of the south," having been born in central New York, in 1824, of New England parents, who, in 1828 moved to northern Ohio and settled near Elyria, Lorain county. Here, in a pioneer log cabin the boy was reared to manhood, often assisting his father, who was a blacksmith, in his shop. Having met with an accident, which permanently crippled his right hand, he turned his attention to the matter of fitting himself for teaching, and by dint of perseverance and strict economy, acquired an academic education. After teaching a short time, principally in Kentucky, he entered a law office in Columbus, Ohio, with a view of entering that profession. But becoming interested in a theological discussion between an orthodox and a Universalistic divine; he became a convert of the latter faith, and gave up the law for the ministry in the Universalistic denomination, which was a sad blow to his aged mother, who was a very strict, consistent member of the Methodist church. The matter, however, set her to thinking and in a year or so she too, became an avowed believer in universal salvation, and was ever proud of her "preacher boy."

Now, as to the true story of "Lorena," I will say that I write from the knowledge of the facts gained from a long acquaintance and association with the author, Rev. H. D. L. Webster, who was an uncle of mine, being my father's youngest brother, and but nine years my senior. His first pastorate was in Zanesville, Ohio. There he be acquainted with a Miss Ella Blocksom, which acquaintance ripened into a mutual attachment and engagement. A wealthy married sister, with whom the girl made her home, had higher notions for her than that she should marry a poor preacher, and broke the engagement. The girl afterward married a young lawyer who became Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Ohio, the Hon. W. W. Johnson. (note from Sharon - William Wartenbee Johnson was a lawyer and judge in Ironton, Ohio) "Thus proving," as the Rev. Webster afterward said, "the woman's better sense as to the affair." Mr. Webster himself, soon afterward married, and if the episode with the Zanesville girl ever caused him much sorrow, none of his family ever suspected it.

In 1853-4 he was pastor of a congregation in Warren, Mass. In March of the latter year he wrote the song, using the name Bertha, which was published in a Boston paper. In 1858 he occupied the pulpit in the Universalistic church in Racine, Wisconsin. Here he formed the acquaintance of J. P. Webster, who was then a popular composer of music, and under contract with Higgins Bros., of Chicago, to furnish them all the music he should compose, at a stipulated price. The preacher showed the verses to J. P. Webster, who, after reading them, asked permission to take them along with him, which was readily granted. It was then about 11 p.m., but before morning the music, as later published, was virtually completed, as the author afterward said "a case of inspiration." There was one thing, however, that troubled him, and that was the name. He wanted a name of three syllables; and appealed to the author of the words to help find one suitable for the occasion. They together spent nearly as much time in finding a suitable name as the author had in writing the music. Finally, as if by inspiration, the name Lorena was suggested and adopted. It was first published by Higgins Brothers of Chicago, in 1857, and met with an almost unprecedented sale, the publishers making many thousands of dollars from its circulation. The price paid to J. P. Webster for writing it was the paltry sum of $25. Thus was given to the world a song of sentiment equal to Annie Laurie, and which during the Civil War was sung in the armies of both north and south, in fact, in all parts of the country. The only drawback to its popularity was its length, being composed of six stanzas of eight lines each.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 11:46 AM

Where can I find a transcript of the Burl Ives testimony?

---

See this message (click) - not a complete answer, but a start. Be sure to follow the links to the rest of the thread, which would be a better place to discuss to Burl Ives testimony.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 12:26 PM

That would be interesting to read. You hear so many accounts of the things that went on in those difficult times. There were some pretty nasty characters around on the right...and on the left too!

Subject: RE: Burl Ives and Johnny Cash -- A Wow
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM

Nice video. There's one of Cash performing with Louis Armstrong as
well.