Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee

Subject: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:24 PM

Does anyone know anything about any theatre production/play etc regarding the legendary John Lee of Babbacombe. Fairport did an amazing concept album(1971) and had a bbc special('75) the latter of which I'd love to find a copy of (seems to be 'lost'). I'd be interested in any information regarding this man as I intend to do a musical interpretation of his life one day-based on Swarbs genius. This was a story that captured the world's attention over a hundred years ago and still has relevant themes and characters. Thanks much, Dulcimerjohn

Subject: ADD: The Man They Could Not Hang (Matt McGinn)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM

Boy, John, you picked a hard name to find. Searching Mudcat for "John Lee" brings up all kinds of stuff about John Lee Hooker - but it also brings up a song called The Man They Could Not Hang, but Matt McGinn. In fact, since it's lost in a thread about capital punishment, I'll post it here.
-Joe Offer-

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Thread #8178   Message #995182
Posted By: GUEST,Mary Ann
01-Aug-03 - 02:52 PM
Thread Name: Songs about capital punishment.
Subject: Lyr Add: THE MAN THEY COULD NOT HANG (Matt McGinn)

The Man They Could Not Hang
Take Me Back to the Jungle LP
(Matt McGinn)

There was an old hangman in Exeter
And a fine old hangman was he
He had hanged a thousand or more
But he couldn't hang John Lee
John Lee !
No he couldn't hang John Lee

Emma Keyes of Abercombe was rich as rich can be
She had servants in her home
And one was Johhny Lee
John Lee !
And one was Johhny Lee

Johnny Lee was a bad, bad man
So the story said
So they threw him in the local can
When they found old Emma dead
So dead !
They found old Emma dead

The judge he listened to the cons
Then he heard the pros
And it was clear that Johnny Lee
Had fewer friends than foes
Than foes !
Had fewer friends than foes

There was an old hangman in Exeter
And a fine old hangman was he
He had hanged a thousand or more
But he couldn't hang John Lee
John Lee !
No he couldn't hang John Lee

The Judge picked up his old black cap
And he looked John in the eye
He said it falls on me to sentence thee
To be hanged until ye die
Ye die !
Hanged until ye die

James Berry was the hangman's name
And it filled his heart with glee
When they placed into his gentle hands
The prisoner Johhny Lee

He led him to the scaffold high
And then to John says he
"One last request I'll grant to you "
"Close your trap" says Johnny Lee
John Lee !
"Close your trap" says Johnny Lee

There was an old hangman in Exeter
And a fine old hangman was he
He had hanged a thousand or more
But he couldn't hang John Lee
John Lee !
No he couldn't hang John Lee


James Berry pulled the lever down
To send John Lee below
Then he began to curse and frown
When John Lee would not go
Not go !
When John Lee would not go

Again and then again he tried
Again and again he failed
Then word came down from London town
John Lee for a life in jail
In jail !
John Lee for a life in jail

There was an old hangman in Exeter
And a fine old hangman was he
He had hanged a thousand or more
But he couldn't hang John Lee
John Lee !
No he couldn't hang John Lee

T'was back in 1885 they tried to hang John Lee
In 1917 he sailed for far Americ-ee
Did he
For far Americ-ee
There he went and died in bed in 1933
Here lies the man they could not hang
And his name was Johnny Lee
John Lee !
And his name was Johnny Lee

CHORUS

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Also look at this message (click).
Also this posted a long time ago by The Mudcatter Formerly Known as Countess Richard:

Songs on Fairport Convention's concept album Babbacombe Lee were based on contemporary accounts that Dave Swabrick found in a Torquay junk shop about John Lee, the man they couldn't hang.

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:49 PM

John, a theater production sounds familiar! But I can't place where I heard about it.

There was a documentary on the BBC in 1974. From Musikfolk:

"In late 1974, [Fairport] re-recorded the tracks from the album plus incidental music for a BBC2 documentary narrated by Melvyn Bragg about John Lee. One of the most interesting aspects of this was hearing Sandy Denny singing the lead in a version of " Breakfast In Mayfair" . The programme was broadcast in the BBC2 " 2nd House" Series as " The Man They Couldn't Hang - John Lee" on 1st February 1975 and was due to be re-broadcast in " 2nd House 2nd Run" on 21 June 1975. However due to coverage of the Cricket World Cup Final over-running it was cancelled..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 01:51 PM

Googling John 'Babbacombe' Lee brings up all the Victorian penny dreadful stuff Dave Swarbrick regaled us with at the album launch in 1972. He'd found some old newspapers in a junk shop and decided it was a very good story and worth a few songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM

"He'd found some old newspapers in a junk shop and decided it was a very good story and worth a few songs."

was that the Illustrated London News?

(Charlotte (just asking)

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 09:09 PM

I heard Swarb actually found John Lee's personal copies of some of his post release material (penny dreadfuls..his own account etc). Wonder how many other artifacts/accounts of geneology etc might be floating out there? Cool stuff..

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:30 AM

Swarb, being an inveterate junk, sorry antique, collector, found a collection of old documents in a shop when he was living at Little Hadham I think. One of them was a copy of Lloyd's Weekly News with the story of Babbacombe Lee in it. (This scandal sheet was one of many - the Illustrated Police News was another. Lots of lurid copy and incredibly bad engravings. Think The News of the Screws or the National Enquirer).

The Babbacombe Lee album as originally issued had a booklet inside with a transcription of the story, and some lovely drawings of the band made to look like engravings. I think Island Records lost a LOT of money on it.

Also, when BBC2 put the programme on, the Radio Times had a big article about Lee and Swarb, complete with the front page of the very Lloyd's Weekly News concerned! And I kept it, sad person that I am. Glad I did though.

By the way, Swarb though the scaffold failure was an inside job.

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 07:21 AM

I'm lucky enough to have a copy of the inner booklet as well, signed by Simon Nicol and Peggy (Dave Peg). Seems not to be anything at the Torquay museum (on babbacombe street!). Wonder if Swarb has John's 'stuff' still..where else?. Wonder who he thinks was 'in on it'? Inquisitively, Dulcimerjohn

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:22 AM

After I posted the last bit I followed up what Diane said and had a look on Google. There is a wealth of stuff but this looks good -

http://www.ianwaugh.com/murderresearch/

There seems to be a biog of Lee! And he seems to have died in the States (and Australia, and the workhouse in the UK!

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:41 AM

I've seen some of the biog..can't seem to find any record of a stone in milwaukee (forest hill cemetary)..Just finished listening (again, till my ears bleed) to FC's masterpiece. Can't help notice that I was born a hundred years after Lee and am now the same age as he was a hundred years ago when he was freshly released and on the countryside whirlwind 'tours'....(oh no). Wonder if there are any artifacts from those days..how did England view him..sympathetically like Swarb, cynically?

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:00 AM

Tell you what John, I'll try & remember to ask Swarb if he's still got the Lee stuff when I catch up with him at a gig. I would think maybe not, knowing the lorry crashed into the Angel, etc.

When we saw his Lazarus band at its first gig, my missus collared him! Sometime around 1971 this small Afghan jacketed hairy person walked into my father in law's picture shop. My ma in law thought the hippies had invaded - or course it was Mr. Swarbrick, so she was quite correct. He asked her if anything could be done with a painting or drawing he had brought with him - when the lorry crashed into the house, the painting had been picked up and used as a tea tray for the firemen! Mother in law said "Oh I'd better ask my husband, leave it with me". When he came in later he took one look at it and exclaimed "My God - it's a Chagall!!" Well that's the story anyway.

35 years on, Ma in law isn't so well so my wife asked Swarb if he remembered - he certainly did and wrote Ma in law his best wishes.

He is one Diamond Geezer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: John 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:43 AM

'there's a hole in the wall where a lorry came in..' you are a gentleman and a scholar Mr Ed. Tried to contact Swarbs missus to see if she has ever painted John-love her painting of her man showing some of his complexities..hope to hear back sometime. If I ever do produce a musical/play/production I will certainly video it and have it available for interested parties. Maybe I'll make it to cropredy one year and meet him. I wonder if I could get a gig or two in england (perhaps opening for folkies) playing old folk stuff on dulcimer eg strawbs, FC, appalachian stuff etc. Your thoughts? any market for an american playing that stuff in england?

Subject: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: dulcimerjohn
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:31 PM

Anyone have any info or know where I can get a copy of the 1975 bbc Fairport thing? ..or the 1925 silent film run at Empire Cinema in Babbacombe/Torquay or any other productions/musicals etc of this man's life. 'The man they couldn't hang' was newly freed a hundred years ago and was off to tell his story...disappearing soon after. I'm attempting the lofty ambition of retelling parts of this tale in some artistic form. Drop away! Dulcimerjohn

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 08:13 PM

Try eBay or posting on the Talkawhile site.

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:03 AM

Dulcimerjohn, I always thought the 1975 show got wiped. BUT, somebody told me ages ago that that it still exists. Who does one believe? Trouble is, half the time the BBC doesn't know or care what it's got so what chance have we mere mortals?

Don't lose hope - most fans thought there was no decent footage of Sandy Denny, but a few years ago 3 songs from 1971 surfaced and they are now enshrined on DVD. And Full House era Fairport (at the Olympia in Paris)footage has recently appeared on YouTube.

The Talkawhile suggestion is a good one. If you log on you can ask Dave Swarbrick a question this month! And boy are his replies entertaining........

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unhangable Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:20 AM

Bonus tracks on the 2004 re-release, on CD of Fairport's Babbacombe Lee.

Farewell To A Poor Man's Son (Dave Swarbrick) 4'55"
Breakfast In Mayfair (Simon Nicol) 3'59"

These tracks were recorded in late 1974 for the BBC 2 documentary about John Lee narrated by Melvyn Bragg. The programme was broadcast in the BBC 2 "2nd House" Series as "The Man They Couldn't Hang - John Lee" on February 1, 1975. The tracks are performed by a different lineup of the band than performed on the original album, one formed after the departure of Simon Nicol and the return of lead singer Sandy Denny.

Personnel on these tracks are Dave Swarbrick, Dave Pegg, Dave Mattacks, Trevor Lucas, Jerry Donahue, Sandy Denny. Denny sings only on "Breakfast In Mayfair".

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's over 18 Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:28 AM

Warning you MUST be over 18 in order to view

THIS

Don't say you weren't warned

Charlotte (in the interests of the community at large)

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:32 AM

Both of those tracks are also available on the Fairport Unconventional Box Set on Free Reed. On Breakfast In Mayfair on that version, Sandy starts off the song but Simon sings the last verse. I believe they brought Simon in for that even though he wasn't in the band, as Charlotte mentions. There is also one other deleted song on the same box set, but the name escapes me at the moment.

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:36 AM

Chester Band "Full House" (with special guests) performed the whole of Babbacombe Lee in a single set at Chester Folk Festival in (I think) 2004. They had been threatening to do it for about 20 years.

It was excellent.

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

"There is also one other deleted song on the same box set, but the name escapes me at the moment"

would that be Lament For A Poor Man's Son written by Dave Swarbrick, another song from the Babbacombe Lee project, but which was not recorded for the album. It was however played live on the subsequent tour.

Charlotte (remembered from a Fairport website)

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:48 AM

Actually I just looked again, I think I was thinking of Sad Song from the "Manor Sessions" which was not a part of Babbacombe Lee. Charlotte, you do have me interested though, the "Mayfair" on the remastered Babbacombe Lee that you mentioned, has only Sandy Denny singing? If so I have to grumble and cough up the dough for the remaster!

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:54 AM

BBC TV: The Man They Couldn't Hang
The Man They Couldn't Hang

BBC (TV, UK, 1975)
BBC (video, UK, 1992)

In 1975, the BBC produced a version of Fairport's "Babbacombe" Lee for television, entitling it The Man They Couldn't Hang. It was recorded on September 24, 1974 and broadcast on February 1, 1975. This featured narration by Melvin Bragg, broadsides by Martin Carthy, most of the songs from the record by an unusual Fairport line-up (Donahue / Nicol / Mattacks / Pegg / Swarbrick), and one song, sung by Sandy Denny (three verses) and Simon Nicol (last verse). Although the original record of "Babbacombe" Lee has no song titles, Breakfast in Mayfair was the working title for this song. It appeared as this on The History of Fairport Convention and in 2002 on the Fairport unConventioNal 4CD set and was added as bonus track to the 2004 CD reissue of "Babbacombe" Lee.

In 1992, the BBC released The Man They Couldn't Hang as a video-cassette.

gleaned from Rheinhard Zierke's amazing webite...to whom massive thanks are sent out.

Irish looks like you'll be coughing up the funds.. I just put my CD copy on the player and it's Sandy on her own

Charlotte (still dusty from the archives)

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:56 AM

#%^$&*&*!@! Charlotte! Thank you though.

Subject: RE: More on 'Babbacombe' Lee
From: dulcimerjohn
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:59 AM

Have been in contact w Mrs Swarbrick (Jill) and awaiting a reply from Swarb. Also just found a hundred year old paperback copy of 'the man they couldn't hang'..heady stuff. Will try to contact BBC (thank-you Charlotte). ps seems weird to image a JBL set/performance w/out Swarb! Dulcimerrily, John