Music - 'no longer changes the world'

Subject: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM

What do you think?

From an AP story about Neil Young:

BERLIN - Neil Young has a pessimistic message: Music has lost its power to change the world.The 62-year-old singer brought his new movie, "CSNY Deja Vu," to the Berlin film festival Friday. The film was shot during the 2006 Freedom of Speech tour by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young.Young, who directed the movie under the pseudonym Bernard Shakey, wasn't making any big claims about its effects "I think that the time when music could change the world is past," he told reporters. "I think it would be very naive to think that in this day and age."

Young added: "I think the world today is a different place, and that it's time for science and physics and spirituality to make a difference in this world and to try to save the planet."

"CSNY Deja Vu" intersperses footage from the tour, which featured performances from Young's "Living With War" album, with archive and television news material — and unfavorable reactions from critics.

"If we didn't do that, it would just feel like a bunch of old hippies up there saying what they thought — and who cares?" Young said.
Young said he called his fellow band members before the tour and told them: "This is all I'm going to do, I won't be doing anything else and I don't want to sing any ... pretty songs; we can only sing about war and politics and the human condition.""The goal was to stimulate debate among people, and I hope that to some degree the film succeeds in doing that," he said.

"CSNY Deja Vu" is showing outside the main competition at the annual Berlin festival, which runs through Feb. 17.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

Music never changed the world, people do.   Music has and continues to change people.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 05:11 PM

I still like Cracklin' Rosie.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 07:44 AM

But as we try to change the world for the better we need music and songs to help us,encourage us and console us!
And Ohio by Neil Young for example ensures that the four dead in Kent State University will not be forgotten.
albert

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: topical tom
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:15 AM

Good music CAN change people and, at the very least, makes the world a hell of a lot better place to live in.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 03:59 PM

I agree with you, Topical Tom. Think what it would be like to live in a world without any music in it! For what it is worth, I think Neil Young is wrong!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,ohtrdco
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 04:07 PM

I think he wants to be proven wrong

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM

I sometimes think that it's high time that 'music' got over itself!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

I think that Neil fails to see that it is only his music that isn't changing the world anymore, and I say that being a person who loves the music this man has made. My all time favorite band in the folk rock arena is Buffalo Springfield, and all the permutations since, including CSNY. They, and others of their time, reacted to the world around them and helped to change the heart and minds of the world. They were following in the footsteps of others who did the same, including Joe Hill, Woody Gutherie, Bob Dylan, and so many more that space does not permit listing. And you see this in much of the topical music being made by young folks today.

I respect Neil, and sing his songs. He is dead wrong on this one.

Our own Rick Fielding wrote, in my opinion, one of the greatest songs ever on this subject. I start all of my "social activism" sets and appearances with it. It is titled "Voices of Struggle". Here are the lyrics:

In France, La Marsellaise is sung in memory of a time
When a starving people, they rose as one to hold a blood soaked line.
Scottish clans were massacred yet still the pipers play,
Kevin Barry died for Ireland, and his song is sung today.

In the mines of Harlan County, before he union fight was won,
We heard the voice of Florence Reese ask, "Which side are you on?"
In the cities, angry workers held a Wobbly standard high,
In the streets they marched to Joe Hill's songs, a singing battle cry.

Voices of struggle must be heard once again,
Voices together, every woman, child and man.
Your fight is my fight, together we are strong,
Voices of Struggle shout the power of song

In Chile, while we watched a country's hopes come and gone,
the Army killed a people, but they couldn't kill the song.
Victor Jara's tortured body will not suffer anymore,
though dead his spirit rises with a mighty freedom roar.

And in my time I've seen the dogs and the hate of the hooded clan,
the murder of a preacher, the rape of Vietnam.
Yet those who died for freedom, give us strength to carry on,
and courage when all hope was gone with "We Shall Overcome"..

Chorus

The voice of women marching shook the old ways once again,
With sisterhood, not guns, to seek equality with men.
So many years, so many tears, and still we fight the lie.
No victory is at hand with "Bread and Roses" still the cry.

Now once again the madness screams from every tabloid page,
when murder burns through TV screens and numbness turns to rage.
Till death machines and crimes against humanity have ceased,
wherever people gather we must raise a voice for peace...

Chorus

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM

Music itself never changed a thing. People make all the difference. If they're inspired by music all well and good. Personally I don't think Neil Young is wrong at all

"I sometimes think that it's high time that 'music' got over itself!"

exactly

Charlotte (changes her mind often)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:19 PM

Just because a guy says something about music don't make it true. And just because people who listen to music think he's wrong just don't make him wrong.

Music is an art. By itself--unless your art is exploding H bombs to make cloud-like patterns in the air--your art ain't gonna change a damned thing. But as Ron said upthread, it may change a few people who then go on to change a few things.

I was never a fan of Neil Young's writing, or his singing, but I do know he had and has LOTS of fans. Maybe a few of them have made inroads against injustice--maybe more than most folks.

That is all I have to say.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

With Peace on this one. Nicely summed up.

There are musicians and songwriters who want a better world and their work reflects that desire... Totally off topic, in a way, because it's got bugger all to do with folk, but when I was 20 or so I was totally bowled over by the message Crass were putting across on their records and sleevenotes (though I couldn't listen to more than ten minutes of a Crass album these days!) and a certain amount of what I learned has stayed with me a quarter of a century later. If nothing else, they soundtracked my youthful revolutionary fervour...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 10:11 PM

I also would hate to live in a world without music in it - which is why I lament the popularity of hip-hop. When did wiki-wiki noises, sampling and crappy poetry become a replacement for real music?

That said, hip-hop is probably the closest modern equivalent of the broadside ballad - and I wouldn't be surprised if most young people got their awareness of current events more from hip-hop lyrics than from any other source. The bad news (there's more?) is that the self-aggrandizing tripe spewed forth by most hip-hop artists panders to people's basest, most dysfunctional instincts. Wonder why people these days are so rude and callous? Check out what they're listening to. This is not the Age of Aquarius, it's the age of "I'm a playah, get outta my face." I believe music is still making a huge impact, it's just a negative one.

We also live in an era when everything we take in - ads, movies, news stories, political speeches, corporate announcements - is steeped in calculated artifice. We have come to expect hypocrisy and emotional manipulation from every source: nothing strikes us as genuine, from the heart; we learn to be jaded from the crib. This is particularly true of modern music; it reeks of insincerity. Sadly, if musicians returned to making unaffected, honest, direct, sincere music, it wouldn't get sold nowadays, so no one would hear their message. It's the world we're choosing for ourselves.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: KeithofChester
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 08:40 AM

I probably enjoyed Living With War for completely the wrong reason, in that since it was just one long rant against Dubya from start to finish it was just funny because it was too intense.

It was like a Robb Johnson album squared if not cubed!

Right, of to put on Heart of Gold for a bit of balance.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Ernest
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 10:38 AM

Seriously, I am with Ron and Charlotte here. Music can inspire people to consider the musicians messages, but if it doesn`t transport something people can agree with, the message is lost. Music can give groups of people something to identify with, but this in itself is not naturally postive. Even the Nazis had songs. You can even have good music for a bad cause (I don`t want to say that Neil`s is a bad cause, don`t get me wrong here please).

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,Jom
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 10:43 AM

fwiw, I'm not convinced music has ever changed the world. It may reflect moods and thoughts of a group and perhaps help support a group but I think it's far more a matter of supporting the converted than converting others.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Darowyn
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

I have been reading some serious social theory books recently in connection with some developments at work, and a couple of days ago I came across this argument in Keith Negus' book, "The Theory of Popular Music".
Music does not change the world, but it can change the people in the world, because it can change the way they feel. In particular, it can create an emotional bond with other people who share music with you.
I meet and play music with people of many countries and cultures, and that has changed the way I feel, and accordingly, the way I act towards those people and cultures.
As a result of music, I do feel a kinship with people of China, Nepal, West Africa, Bangla Desh, Iran, etc, etc....
My reaction to news stories from those countries is moderated accordingly.
So I go out and I argue those points. When I meet somebody in a position of influence, I talk about it. When I teach, those attitudes are overt in the things I teach.
I will do my best to change the world, and if that is not much, well, a little is better than nothing!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

Music is like cheap perfume, it attracts momentarily then is gone, it may have the power to move you emotionally, and more than once, but it has yet to solve one international crisis, or cure one nasty disease.
Any world that is changed by music is either very small, or very personal, but as far as the rest of us are concerned it's about as much use as a cotton candy jock strap, regarding worldly matters.
Of course if you live in a little world of your own making, then the previous thoughts will mean nothing to you.
G.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 12:25 PM

Ok... How does music change the world?

I'll tell you.

By many musicians going out into the highways and byways, to venues all over the country and performing their material for charity. They use their talents to raise money for many deserving causes that would not have had that money to use if they had not given of their time and skill.

Best wishes,

Peter (singing..not ranting!)   (oh no...Charlotte...these brackets are catching!)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM

Is that the music raising the money, or the performer? Because if it was a juggler or an acrobat performing for free to raise money for charity, would it be Indian Clubs or tightropes changing the world?

G

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 12:39 PM

So a good song is worth more than a good juggle then?

G.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

Same with the music
G

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: number 6
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:05 PM

Here's my 2 cents worth ..

I know a lot of people here in the Cat are not fans of Neil Young. But to me 'ol Neil is someone from the days of my youth who never sold out and stayed on track, like so many of his contemporaries have.

Now, in regards to the subject of this thread … yes people do make changes in the world, but music is a common (art) media that easily crosses all language barriers, cultures and classes. It's a voice ( a communicator) that can trigger the wind of change. The problem today is that no one is communicating.

Steve Earl's song 'Christmas Time in Washington' comes to mind. In fact it is a song that has been resonating in my head quite a lot as of late. Here's the chorus from that song …

"So come back Woody Guthrie
Come back to us now
Tear your eyes from paradise
And rise again somehow
If you run into Jesus
Maybe he can help you out
Come back Woody Guthrie to us now"

biLL

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 01:36 PM

"Is that the music raising the money, or the performer?"

Well spotted John! It's both, of course. Some people go because of the music, some go becasue of who is performing. They all go to help raise money!

(You could argue that jugglers and tightrope walkers use music in their acts, but that would be pushing the envelope!)

More seriously, there are stories of people who have survived due to the power of a particular song. Go to this link and wind down to interesting details!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

"Peter (singing..not ranting!)   (oh no...Charlotte...these brackets are catching!)
monkey see, monkey do

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 03:44 PM

I think music changes the world, so does ironing clothes. No doubt in our memories there was a time when we thought music was a powerful force for change, but stuff happens.

One thing I'm not inclined to say is that music is the only thing that will change the world, something that Jimi Hendrix is alleged to have said.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

no idea what you do for a living, Megan L.

and back on topic, I reiterate..music has never changed a damn thing in this world and it never will, it's people that just might do that.

Charlotte (sorry for the thread drift)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:09 PM

Funny thing though--I never noticed any dead fascists trailing behind Woody's guitar.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:14 PM

That'll go over a few heads Dick, nice observation.
G

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:20 PM

Music has changed MY world. That'll have to do I guess.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM

yup, I guess it went over a few heads....

Charlotte (maybe, maybe not)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM

Dunno about changing the whole world...but a friend of mine told me last year (apparently in all seriousness) that his baby daughter was apparently conceived to the sound of one of my CDs...not REALLY what the music was designed for (I'm more an art for art's sake man myself), but something to tell the grandkids many years hence (mine, not his. Though come to think of it...)

As a music fan, I find any kind of political/protest music tends to get less listenable roughly in inverse proportion to the stridency of the message...the one exception being a soft spot for early Dylan.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:50 PM

"thank goodness you weren't playing 'live'....."

Hmmm, that gives me an idea...I'm sure there's a market, somewhere...all I need is a "customer's testimony" and I'm away...

(Chuckle)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Marketing Consultant
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 04:59 PM

well Gene, let me see...first of all the demographic you'd be looking at...... *LOL*

Charlotte(Customer Testimonials R Us)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM

I was thinking of pitching myself as a kind of a low rent alternative to IVF. Not sure of the science behind the treatment, but I'm sure I could cobble some kind of plausible-ish waffle together...there's big bucks to be made!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:24 PM

well you know the old advertising world saying, "if you can't dazzle'em with brilliance, baffle'em with...well you get the drift*LOL*

Charlotte (works everytime)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:51 PM

"See Gene...they're swarming round you already... ;-)"

Let's just say I'm touched...

Gene (The Thinking Man's or Woman's Aphrodisiac)

Maybe that could lose two or three syllables...

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: pdq
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:51 PM

"I never noticed any dead fascists trailing behind Woody's guitar"

Mostly live copyright lawyers.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM

"Let's just say I'm touched..."

Gene, don't lead with your chin!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM

Oh, I was just echoing what people say to me all the time, Bruce. I always take it as a compliment. Er... :@)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:02 PM

LOL

Love your sense of humour.

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:08 PM

Always glad to be of service...having singularly failed to make any serous postings in the last 24 hours...Who gave those folks over on the John Lennon thread permission to turn it back into a discussion about John Lennon?? Entirely unacceptable!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM

Thought it was Joseph Lenno . . . .

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM

Who he?

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM

All this witty repartee must cease or I will close this thread and block all your bowels......

Joseph Lenno.... wasn't he in The Dave Clark 5?

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Peace
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:18 PM

That communist guy. Joseph Lennon!

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Gene Burton
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:25 PM

Ha, ha!

Reminds me, my Dad (until recently a History teacher) used to have to mark scores of essays by 13-14 year olds on the Russian revolution every spring, including a gem one year which began "Lenny was a Communist..."

No, but seriously, guys, I have absolutely no idea who Joseph Lenno is/was. Oh wait...is he the talkshow host?

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 07:13 PM

William Wilberforce first met John Newton when Wilberforce was a child, in London. He was 'inspired' by Newton and his preaching, and
because Newton had been a captain on a slave trader, not the hymns he wrote or music. After Wilberforce left Cambridge (where he'd been sent at age 14), they frequently had theological debates after 1785. ('The Trader, the Owner, the Slave - Parallel lives in the Age of Slavery' by James Walvin, pub by Vintage, ISBN 9780712667630 - presently available in Waterstones as a 3 for 2 sticker book).

Music alone cannot really change anything. The people it inspires can make small changes. If a song becomes popular, it can inspire millions of people. Those millions of people are what could change the world. Music can be used to get a message across, but there are very few songs or pieces that have individually 'changed the world' - even Newton's 'Amazing Grace' is made up from phrases and verses from the Bible so it's hardly a new message.

Once again, what started as a good discussion subject has been hijacked and trashed by the same few people... I was under the impression that one of those few, one who has posted no less than 16 times to this thread - 4 of those consecutive postings - was banned from the Mudcat... I must have missed the reasons for her reinstatement. I haven't missed her posts at all.

LTS

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Beer
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:03 AM

I've been reading all these threads and I have very little to say. So here goes.

I) Never care for Neil Young's music. However there are exceptions. The one song that i really liked was "This Old House" on his record American Dream.

2) I cannot Imagen a world without music. I am 60 years old and have been screaming (singing) since I was born. Playing music since I was 16 and writing for about 20 years. I go to bed with a tune in my head and still wake up with a tune to try on the piano. Neil Young needs to join Mudcat so he can realize that there are folks here that think (oh never mind.) he is wrong. Well most of us.

3) Than again. What is he really saying? "No longer changes?" Sounds like he is referring to the days when he was big and is now starting to fade from that era and wants to set a spark to his career. Hell why not.

4) Then maybe in his thinking he is right. Where are the Dylan's, Lightfoots, Paxton's, Mitchell's, Murdoch's, Lang's, Guthrie's, Prine, not to mention the Eric Bogle, And all those other great great performers that we grew up to love. He maybe very right. Maybe there is no one out there "NOW" that we can relate to as far as the music we love. Maybe it is just that the music has changed and we have stayed behind.

5) I just want to finish by saying that there are other mediums out there that even music lovers have little knowledge of. The variety of trees, plants, gardening, and on and on. One that I will touch on is birds. I can look at a bird in flight and tell you what it is just by the way it flies. I can tell you most birds by the songs they sing without seeing them.

The point I'm trying to make is that Music/Birds/gardening/ and all the things around us are all related to the whole. Most of us will never grasp it all but just a part. if it is not music it might be trees or plant life. But music just happens to be one of those things that you can't hold in you hand, but you can hold in your heart.

Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Music - 'no longer changes the world'
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 02:07 AM

Music still changes the world: makes it less quiet.
;0)
Ernest