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Learning violin versus learning fiddle
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,MacDuff Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM Adding to the conversation: This from a friend sent to me privately: My training is classical and I believe that it has created a solid technical foundation for playing the violin efficiently and understanding sound production. Classical posture is based around getting the most out of one's arm and fingers without compromising the physical structure of the body thus and avoiding injury. The Suzuki method of learning violin is also greatly focused on training the ear, a skill essential to fiddle playing (my background). As far as switching from classical style to a folk idiom, I don't believe anything can not be unlearned, but there are some notable different physical differences in playing the instrument. The difference stylistically between Irish and classical music is huge. Sound production, phrasing and the 'swing' of Irish music stand out the most to me. I do not believe it is impossible to be a great Irish fiddler and come from a classical background, but it takes a serious immersion in the music to understand the differences and be able to control their production. It also depends greatly on the desired sound of the folk player a classical violinist is trying to imitate and learn from. Example: Kevin Burke was trained classically and he sounds like it, smooth articulate and very controlled playing, but ultimately an amazing musician in the Irish idiom. A player like Paddy Canny however, no classical training and his sound is unique, and I know from my background I could never play like him. I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe it is possible to learn a folk idiom from a classical background and understand and communicate it's intricacies, it is not so easy however to sound like a self taught or folk schooled fiddler when coming from a classical background. The best approach for your daughter I believe depends on what she wants to become. Making this change has been a big part of my development and I'm no way near to mastering it, but I've put a lot of time into it and had a lot of instruction as well. I'd be happy to talk with your daughter's mother more about my personal efforts and struggles if she would find it at all helpful. Best of luck with whichever avenue is pursued. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: John Hardly Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:48 PM If one learns to play by ear, one will be FAR less likely to ever learn to sight read. If one learns to sight read, it is less likely that one will learn to play by ear. The question becomes which of the two above is easier to go against? I think it's probably easier for a sight reader to learn to play by ear than the other way around. Given that, it's not a bad idea for a teacher to suggest that a child not first learn to play by ear. Why? ...because the very best option would be to be able to do both equally well. I know a few people (including the best fiddler I've played with) who, as youngsters, faked their way through orchestra because they could mimic well (by ear). But when push came to shove, the door finally slammed on them when they REALLY needed to be able to sight read. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Don Firth Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:21 PM Well put, sir! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Grab Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:16 PM The techniques are not identical. The use of the bow, and the types and use of ornamentation are not the same. That's not technique. Technique covers being able to pitch notes accurately with your left hand, to bow cleanly with your right hand with a maximum of efficiency, to choose bow position on the strings for various tones, and to coordinate the movement of both hands accurately. That's all. (OK, vibrato as well, but that's rarely an issue for folk.) And that's what classical teachers know best how to teach, because that's all they do for the first 2-3 grades. Everything else after that is style. And that's where you get folk-specific - see earlier posts. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Rowan Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:56 PM And it's now a round 100 |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,MacDuff Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:20 PM Yes, thank you all sincerely for your various and so interesting viewpoints. You have given me much to ponder. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:48 AM Er - probably worth saying. I've seen a lot of discussion like this on this and other forums. All too often they descend into rudeness and worse. Thank you everyone for your reasoned and thoughtful responses |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:45 AM Mudelf - I actually typed in c.g. but as I did it last and my computer was having a fit of sulks, it didn't register. Sorry. In fact I've just typed a long reply to this which the computer ate, and I'm not sure I've got time to do it again. Artful, (if I may be so informal), it's not a choice between a good singer and a bad singer, but a continuum between someone who uses what voice and technique they have in the service of the song, and someone who uses the song to show off their beautiful voice. The point I was making, obviously rather clumsily, was that you can be a good fiddler even with physical problems, if you have the love and passion and knowledge and can communicate those. Physical limitations may prevent you being great, but you can be good. "You don't have to "spend years." Whether instrument or voice, a few months' classical lessons will get you off to a good start," (Don Firth.) I agree. If you can't find a good traditional teacher, this is a good substitute. However, I'm as unhappy about the idea that all people teaching traditional style fiddle are self-taught clumsy incomtetants as I am about the idea that all classical musicians are soulless, rigid and can only play from the dots. "Unless you're a musical wiz and play several hours each day, a few months is NOT sufficient time to get a good foundation on the fiddle. It takes years to develop proper bowing technique and intonation, and there's so much else to learn beyond that." Yes. That's why I've spent years working on traditional music. I don't want to spend my practice time playing music that I love listening to but don't want to play. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Artful Codger Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:48 AM c.g.: Are those the only choices I get? Scylla and Charybdis? :-} I find bad singers and lifeless singers both difficult to listen to, though the latter less so. I have some fiddle records that I listen to as a source of tunes and stylistic pointers, but cannot really enjoy, because the scraping, rhythmic errors and bad intonation make my toes curl. Unless you're a musical wiz and play several hours each day, a few months is NOT sufficient time to get a good foundation on the fiddle. It takes years to develop proper bowing technique and intonation, and there's so much else to learn beyond that. Classical training focuses on technique more than repertoire; folk training generally does the reverse. Even if you only intend to play folk, you're likely to develop more control and proficiency if you start with a classical approach. As for the dreaded "conversion", it's easily avoided. My formal study is classical; my recreational playing is fiddle tunes. Keep in mind that folk music comes from folk--people who, by and large, had little formal musical training of any sort. It's not rocket science--its characteristics are relatively easy to recognize and replicate, and it tends to be less demanding or diverse than the classical repertoire. If a violinist has a real feel for the music, there is no reason why he can't play it as well as--or even better than--a folk-trained fiddler. And if a person doesn't have that feel, it doesn't matter what approach he takes. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Don Firth Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:36 PM Not a bad idea, Al. George Street, one of the voice teachers I mentioned above, told me that he knew a violin teacher in New York who worked only with concert artists. And he charged mucho bucks! From time to time, classical musicians and singers find that something isn't working right, and they will look up one of their old teachers or someone like the fellow Mr. Street knew. For a "tune-up!" Mr. Street said that he asked this fellow, "Just what can you teach a person like Jascha Heifetz or Yehudi Menuhin?" "Lesson One," the man answered. "When something goes wrong with a virtuoso's playing, invariably it is something very basic. Perhaps it's the way they hold the bow, or it could be the position of their left hand, or something to do with fingering. But whatever it is, it's something so simple that even they forgot it, and miss it when trying to analyse their own playing. They think it has to be something far more drastic than that. But it's drastic enough! Usually a couple of lessons and some concentrated practice, and they're back on track again." Whenever I start having problems vocally, I pull out the notebook I kept when taking voice lesson and go through the early notes and exercises. Or with the guitar, I pull out Aaron Shearer's Classic Guitar Technique, Volume I. That usually does it. If it doesn't, I go take a few lessons. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,Al no cookie Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:37 PM Ah, a few months worth of standard classical lessons when first getting started. That sounds like a great idea to me. Maybe even a few after playing for 30 years, sort of like a tune-up. Al |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Melissa Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:18 PM It's handy for you to know more about MY observations than I do..thanks for breaking me of the illusion that I am the one walking in my shoes. I do appreciate that a lot, Don. Remind me to thank you later.. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:04 PM Don ,thanks a good post. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Don Firth Date: 16 Feb 08 - 05:37 PM A couple of points I would quibble with—well, there are lots of points here that I would quibble with, but frankly, I don't have the time. There is a large quantity of misinformation being promulgated here by non-classically trained musicians about classically trained musicians, what they think, what they can do and can't do (mostly about what they can't do) that reveals a lot of ignorance about classical musicians, classical music, and classical training. One small point that illustrates some of this ignorance. Someone up-thread said, "It seems to me that fiddlers don't care whether you call their fiddle a Violin...violinists curl up their nose if you call theirs a Fiddle." Not so! Most classical violinists I have met refer to their violins as "fiddles." And I heard an interview on television some time ago with Itzhak Perlman and Pinchas Zukerman. I don't know what kind of violin Zukerman had, but Perlman had a 1743 Guarneri del Gesu (worth millions!), and both of them kept referring to their instruments as "fiddles." I've heard Isaac Stern do the same thing. Also Henry Siegel, who was concertmaster of the Seattle Symphony Orchestra for many years. So, where did that idea come from? Out of someone's imagination, I think! And another misconception. ". . . if you want to play traditional music, why spend years learning to play a style of music you don't want to play, only to have to convert later[?]" You don't have to "spend years." Whether instrument or voice, a few months' classical lessons will get you off to a good start, and you will avoid the mistakes, dead ends, and bad habits you'll invariably pick up while trying to teach yourself—or learn from some teacher who was self-taught. Taking a few singing lessons (a couple of months, perhaps) can make singing a whole lot easier and save you from developing vocal habits that will eventually wreck your singing voice. And, no, it won't make you sound like an opera singer! Believe me, aspiring opera singers wish it was that easy. For them, they do have to study for years, and a lot of them still don't make it. Not everyone has the voice for opera. Same thing for any musical instrument. A few months' classical lessons in the beginning can save you a whole lot of grief later on. The teacher is not teaching you to "play classical music." The teacher is teaching you an efficient way of playing the instrument. The kind of music you play on that instrument—and your "style" (which is an individual thing) is up to you. By the way, speaking of Doc Watson, I took in a workshop he gave at the 1964 Berkeley Folk Festival. When he was talking about flat-picking fiddle tunes, someone asked him how he could play them so fast and so cleanly. Doc responded, "Well, I practice scales for at least a half an hour a day." Several people gasped in horror. "Scales!!" Later, when Doc as talking about fingerpicking, as he tried to explain it, he said, "It's like playing arpeggios." Then he grinned and said, "Of course, I'm not supposed to know words like that!" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:50 PM never make assumptions. what is important, is that classical musicians ,listen to a lot of traditional music. it may take some considerable time before they are able to play it well ,but it can be done. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis Date: 16 Feb 08 - 03:38 PM Dick, Your posting of the 15th Feb, 10.29am, specifically referred to four Irish traditional fiddlers and nobody of any other nationality. What is one supposed to assume? |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 08 - 03:35 PM Matt Cranitch: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt Cranitch is something of a renaissance man in the realm of Irish traditional music: player, scholar, exponent, teacher, writer. With a long history of tunes under his belt, having played with Na Filí, Any Old Time, and currently Sliabh Notes, Matt is also the author of The Irish Fiddle Book, one of the most useful and comprehensive instructional texts available to beginning students of the music. It was that book that got me on the right path with my bowing after some initial misadventures, and that I recommend to all of my serious students now. It's a rare combination -- someone who's able to both play the music with great skill and swing, and someone who's able to analyze as a scholar. A Senior Research Scholar for the past year, with support from the Irish Research Council for the Humanities and Social Sciences, Matt is at work on a dissertation looking at the music of his beloved Sliabh Luachra in greater detail. We met at his home in County Cork on a lovely afternoon this past winter. Matt Cranitch: I grew up in the little village of Rathduff in County Cork, midway between Cork City and Mallow. Both my parents were teachers and taught in the local primary school, or national school, so they taught me at some stage. My father Mícheál played the accordion and the fiddle and sang a bit as well. My mother Kathleen sang. And my grandfather on my father's side, whose name was also Matt, was a melodeon player and a stepdancer. Now I never remember him playing, as he died when I was too young, but certainly I was aware that this was the case. When I was maybe seven my parents got me a fiddle and the plan was that my father would teach me. But the lessons tended to take the form that he'd play the fiddle and have me sit down and listen to him; so they decided to send me to the Cork School of Music instead. I went there when I was eight to learn what's called classical violin, and I continued with that and playing traditional music at home, both those activities in parallel. By my mid-teens I opted for the traditional playing and gave up the classical lessons. So that would have been my early development. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 16 Feb 08 - 03:30 PM I was referring to traditional musicians generally[Not specifically Irish]. The people that came to my mind were Ed Caines[English fiddle player. Lizzie Holmes.Geoff Dixon.Liam Kenneally[Local to West Cork,all good players] I am fairly sure[But not 100 per cent]that Tom MCconville,and Micheal Plunkett [Rakes]were too. I have also met at least another three[over my years on the folk circuit],whose names I cant recall, who were[ you will just have to take my word for it]. Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis - PM Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:51 PM Al, good examples, but I'm specifically interested in Irish musicians, as Dick was too when he made his posting. Geoff ,check my posts again. you are wrong, I was talking about traditional players.where did I mention that I was talking exclusively about Irish traditional players. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:51 PM Al, good examples, but I'm specifically interested in Irish musicians, as Dick was too when he made his posting. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Al Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:19 PM I believe it was Doc Watson who once said that the accumulation of bad techniques and your limitations are what ultimately give you your "style". I must say that most average people not steeped in the music seem to react with more interest to fiddlers who were classically trained. I suspect it's because it gives them something familiar to recognize. When faced with a funky fiddler with lots of "style" but not any classical training, those people just don't quite know what to make of it. It sounds foreign to them. Not homogenized enough to dial into. Of course, after you've become immersed in the genre a while, things will sound different to your ear. Al |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Al Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:11 PM e.g. Erynn Marshall, Rayna Gellert, Earl Johnson |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM Captain Birdseye wrote: 'I know players who have started off as classical musicians and have ended up as good traditional players.' OK, name some! (I'm not disagreeing with you, but just interested in your view.) |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM I agree. I wouldn't (and didn't) say that classical players have no feeling for the music. To play any kind of music successfully you have to have a feeling for and understanding of that sort of music, which means learning and using the right technique for the music, whether it's traditional, jazz, early, 19th century orchestral, heavy metal - whatever. Unfortuntely some people, usually classical trained, believe either that their technique is right for every kind of music, or that classical technique is some sort of basis that everyone has to have and that to play other style you have to learn classical first and then convert. It is possible to play successfully in more than one style - provided you have to necessary understanding and technique. But if you want to play traditional music,why spend years learning to play a style of music you don't want to play,only to have to convert later. If the child wants to learn traditional fiddle, then let her learn that.
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: katlaughing Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:03 AM One thing that bothers me, which I see from time to time, is an assumption that a person who was taught to play violin, in orchestra, etc., has no feeling for the music. As though they are all just automatons. That is erroneous...just as there can be a feeling of great camaraderie etc. in a session when everyone joins in and the bits go together so well, so can that feeling be felt when a symphony orchestra joins together to express something beautiful, powerful, moving, etc. There are some violinists who are so passionate you will see them sway, sit taller, or stand taller if they are a soloist, along with the movement of the music, their whole bodies are into it as well as their spirit and mind. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 16 Feb 08 - 10:48 AM The basic instrument is the same. The set-up (bridge height, curve, string type) may be different. Many players of traditional music prefer a flatter bridge. By the way - the (possible) reason why the habit of holding the bow a couple of inches up from the frog developed. Compare the length of a modern bow, the average length of a baroque bow and the playing length of a modern bow held traditional style. Try it and see how it affects the feel of the bow. (Unfortunately some 'classically' trained players are unable to make a baroque bow work for them. I have a problem in terminology because 'classical' also refers to a particular period, and someone who has learned the correct technique for that era will have no problem.) |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: goatfell Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:41 AM well to me a Violin and a fiddle is the same so they are both the same to a person who likes classical it's a violin and to a person that likes ie folk/country music it's a fiddle. same instrument different names that's all. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:41 AM Willie Taylor wasn't a bad fiddler and his hands were a real mess, the missing finger was only part of it. And what defines a good fiddler? The ability to make people get up and dance? or knowing half a dozen styles of vibrato and being able to describe the difference between staccato and spiccato? Or even spell staccato and spiccato? Artful Codger, if your head and heart are in the music and you have been taught the right technique, you will be good, even if you can't do everything you would like to because of physical problems. Think of it in song terms. Which would you rather hear, someone who understands what they are singing, knows the culture and context of the song and can communicate the soul of the song to the audience, but who hasn't got a great voice, or someone with a beautiful voice and vocal technique who might as well be singing a shopping list for all the meaning there is in? |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Artful Codger Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:51 PM Ahem, the reason I won't become a good fiddler is NOT because I'm taking the classical route, but rather because I have personal impediments (like having broken both hands many years ago) and I didn't start on the instrument till quite late in life. But thanks for jumping to the wrong conclusion there. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM . I know players who have started off as classical musicians and have ended up as good traditional players. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:31 PM ... and I meant to write 'bow to Seán's choice' ... apologies. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:21 PM No, Dick, You're wrong, Seán had already received lessons from his father before he was sent for formal tuition. And, for the record, I wrote 'Seán preferred McGuire as his surname'. I had the pleasure of meeting him and asked him which version of his name he used, he was adamant that it was 'McGuire' and signed a copy of one of his CDs using that form to verify the fact. I think we should all bow by Seán's choice. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:17 PM Geoff Wallis. Sean McGuire 1927 - 2007 By Ronan Nolan In the 1950s and 1960s, when the music of Coleman and Morrison seemed to a new generation to have been there forever, hearing Sean McGuire playing his fiddle on Radio Eireann had an uplifting effect. Sean Stephen Maguire (he later changed his name) was born in Belfast on December 26, 1927, into a musical family. His father, John, played piccolo, concert flute, whistle and fiddle. His brother Jim, who passed away in early 2002, was highly thought of as a fiddle player. The two brothers recorded an album together in 1982. At the age of 12 Sean began his fiddle playing. His two teachers were Professor George Vincent, from whom he learned fingering, and Madame May Nesbitt, who taught him his bowing technique. As a teenager he was first violinist with the Belfast Youth Orchestra and he turned down an invitation to join the Belfast Symphony Orchestra because he felt more at home playing traditional music. "I decided to devote my techniques to the furtherance and promotion of my culture," he once said. At the age of 15 he broadcast on BBC Overseas Radio. At 22 he won the gold medal at the All Ireland Oireachtas Fiddle Championship, scoring 100% from the four judges. ...he was born sean maguire. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Don Firth Date: 15 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM When I started taking some voice lessons, I was warned by folkie friends that this would completely ruin me for singing folk songs. They would make me sound like an opera singer. Oh, horrors!! But I knew what I wanted to learn. I went ahead and did it anyway. In fact, I took lessons from an retired Metropolitan Opera soprano. And, I might add, I told Mrs. Bianchi what my musical interests were and she said "fine!" She taught me correct diaphragmatic breathing, voice placement, had me singing lots of vocal exercises, she even had me singing a few art songs—for certain aspects of vocal technique. And then we started working on folk songs. I took lessons from her for a couple of years. Then, I took some lessons from a male singier who had the same kind of voice I did—bass—just to get a different approach. Among other things, he had me bring my guitar to the lessons and we worked on songs that I was actually singing. Lots of times Mr. Street would stop me in mid-song and say "What does that line mean?" He would ask me to explain it to him in my own words. Now, he knew perfectly well what it meant. He just wanted to make sure that I knew what it meant, so I wouldn't just be singing the song by rote memory (which I hear a lot of folk singers doing). And he was a bear when it came to enunciation. "That song tells a story, and it's important that your audience hears the words clearly." From Mrs. Bianchi, I learned solid vocal technique that has allowed me to sing a lot, while at the same time, keeping my voice healthy and strong. Still at it, and I'm 76 years old. From Mr. Street, I learned how to put a song across to an audience. And I do not sound like an opera singer. I am "paper trained" on classical guitar. I can read for the guitar, and I can play some Tarrega, Sor, Carulli, Villa-Lobos, several transcribed lute pieces, a little Bach, and even a bit of flamenco. But this doesn't stop me from simple strumming, alternate-bass picking, jamming along with bluegrassers, or just generally messing around. Interestingly enough, regarding one of the people, one of this area's more prominent folk singers, who predicted complete disaster if I took lessons, especially classical lessons. He told me he couldn't read music and had learned his guitar chords out of a book of chord diagrams. I later learned from his sister that when he was younger, he had taken classical violin lessons for nine years and he could read music very well. I have heard classically trained musicians who are quite stiff. But they're also stiff when they play classical music. But I have also heard classically trained musician who can really let 'er rip! It depends less on whether or not a person has had classical lesson and more on just what kind of person they are. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:54 PM But not ALL old fiddle players do that. Stephane Grappelli[jazz]says in his book he favoured the classical hold,yet he was a Jazz player. guest cg.you are[imo]misinformed. holding it against the chest,just makes it easier for singing with,but it means certain tunes[ someScott Skinner,Contradiction reel, the Dawn,]cant be played in the keys they are generally played in. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Al Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:51 PM Anyone who doesn't have a tin ear can listen to a fiddler for a few moments and tell, with 99% certainty, whether or not they were classically trained. So, there most certainly is a difference. Some people like that classical sound. Others do not. So, à chacun son goût. Al |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Geoff Wallis Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:49 PM For the record, none of the Irish fiddlers cited by Dick Miles started off as 'classical players'. Each had begun learning traditional fiddle music before they took up classical lessons. And, also for the record, Seán preferred McGuire as his surname and Matt's second name is Cranitch (with 1 'n'). |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: PoppaGator Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:33 PM I would suppose that holding the instrument against one's chest, rather than under the chin, means that the player is not classically trained... |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,te Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM Because they were self-taught? |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:27 PM Many photos of old players (late 19th, early 20th century) show them holding the bow some way up from the frog. Ever seen a classical player holding it like that? Why do you think that is? |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprenticr Date: 15 Feb 08 - 11:14 AM "No and no, because the techniques are (or should be) identical. It's what you do with those techniques that makes it classical or folk" Exactly, there it is, perfectly summed up. The same goes for piano...classical and popular, it's what I do with my technique that makes the music what it is, and the composers of course, whether it be Mozart or Berlin. "except agreement to disagree" sounds like most of the threads on Mudcat ". He (Joe Broughton) now teaches Folk Music and composition there (the Birmingham Conservatoire) according to the Birmingham Conservatoire website Folk Fiddle - Joe Broughton Strings and Things Composition Tutor- Joe Broughton Composition Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 15 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM The techniques are Identical.The use of the bow is the same,ornamentation is very similiar,an exception being the amount of Vibrato used[that too can vary in different types of classical music. [Just listen to a classical player trying to play a jig.]end of quote.Sean Maguire ,ZoeConway,PaddyGlackin,MattCrannitchall stated off as classical players,but through the absorption by listening,can play jigs very well. Basroque is classical music. [There are areas of overlap, but there are differences, and the main one is the technique used to give the music the right feel for the dance].endof quote. there is no difference in technique[for example you still have to keep the bow straight,and be able to have good control over both long and short bows for both styles].your intonation has to be good for both.[for a few tunes it is necessary to play in 3rd or even 5th position,a good classical left hand hold allows you to do this] no its not a question of differing technique,its a question of absorbing style,before a classical player can play traditional music he /she needs to have listened to a lot of it. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 15 Feb 08 - 10:13 AM This thread has been a great discussion but has resolved little for MacDuff except agreement to disagree. There is no doubt in my mind that classical training has some benefit but also some liabilities to a person wanting to play in the folk ideom. If I wanted to learn to drive a truck I would perhaps learn better from a truckdriver than from a racecar driver even though the skill and ability to drive may be much higher with the racer. Best to learn from those do what you want to achieve! |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 15 Feb 08 - 09:10 AM The techniques are not identical. The use of the bow, and the types and use of ornamentation are not the same. Just as all traditional fiddling is not the same. Some styles are 'more' classical, some not. If anything, baroque music has more to offer than modern classical - but many violin teachers offer a one size fits all approach to their own music- students learning three pieces for an exam will be taught the same technique for all three, even if one is 18th, one 19th and one 20th century. There are areas of overlap, but there are differences, and the main one is the technique used to give the music the right feel for the dance. Just listen to a classical player trying to play a jig. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Grab Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:32 AM Could there be a connection? If Artful Codger had had lessons from a traditional fiddle teacher rather than a classical teacher, would he/she have been a better fiddler? No and no, because the techniques are (or should be) identical. It's what you do with those techniques that makes it classical or folk. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: GUEST,c.g. Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:25 AM "Classical training is the best way to learn the control necessary to play fiddle well" "I'll never become more than a passable fiddler" Could there be a connection? If Artful Codger had had lessons from a traditional fiddle teacher rather than a classical teacher, would he/she have been a better fiddler? If someone wants to learn to cook Indian food, they don't go to someone who will teach Greek cookery and then think they will be able to cook Indian food - or at least not without 'converting'. Why learn technique which, while related to what you want to learn, differs so much that you will need to re-learn in order to play in the style you actually want to play? Some people can do it (but why add an extra barrier between you and the music) and some people can't. I suspect that more can't than can, but that may be because those who can just sound like good fiddlers so their background is invisible, but those who can't just sound like classical fiddlers who are well out of their depth. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Sorcha Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:03 PM Eugene O'Donnel. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: Rowan Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:37 PM In clarification, her piano teacher does teach a little by ear, but says my daughter is reluctant to sight-read, so she is pushing this area at this time in order to solidify. From your posts, it sounds like your daughter already has the ability to "listen" and this would be strengthened if she's doing well in competition Irish dancing. With technical basics taught well by a classically trained teacher who is on the girl's wavelength and continued exposure to sessions and live fiddlers, I reckon she'd be well ahead of most of us at 15. So long as she continues to find it all a pleasant experience. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: s&r Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:13 PM From Joe Broughton's website "Joe studied at the Birmingham Conservatoire where in 1997 he won the prestigious Conservatoire Composition Prize. He now teaches Folk Music and composition there. The Conservatoire Folk Ensemble has now become a gigging entity in its own right. The Birmingham Conservatoire made Joe an honorary member in 2003, which carries the designation HonBC." Stu |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: The Sandman Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:30 PM yes my apologies,Zoe Conway. |
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Subject: RE: Learning violin versus learning fiddle From: peregrina Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:16 PM I think you mean Zoe Conway, no? yes definitely plays both. |
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