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E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness
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Subject: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: greg stephens Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM Interesting article on national identity and music in the Guardian yesterday(Fri Feb 15). Various singers were asked to select a song that expressed Englishness. The two folkies asked were Eliza Carthy and Seth Lakeman. Their two very contrasting answers to the qwuesation are worth a read, so here they are: Eliza Carthy Half Man Half Biscuit: A Country Practice This is from their album Four Lads Who Shook the Wirral. More than Anne Briggs, Ian Dury and Queen, who I'm a massive fan of, this makes me think of Englishness. It's incredibly wordy and conversational, with Nigel Blackwell talking over beats and making up almost nursery rhymes. In this song, Blackwell goes all over the country to pick apart English people at our basest: trying to be famous or making money living on the streets rearing fat cows. Then at the end, there's a little old lady in front of the TV watching the millennium fireworks. As Sting plays on the roof of the Barbican, she dies alone because there are no hospital beds for the poor and she's got no family. The song seems over-clever and flippant, but it's bitter and very funny, which is very English: pathos disguised by wit and emotional detachment. It's like a camera flying over the country, zooming in and out; like watching a film of England. Seth Lakeman Richard Thompson: Bee's Wing It's an amazing story about "a laundry girl"; a great English working-class narrative that sums up a lot about England in the past, but it works for any era. It's timeless, despite the girl being a Gypsy, "running wild". It's a lovely story of heartfelt longing, capturing the romantic side of working-class England. Richard Thompson is very English in the way that he sings, and he's got a distinctively English way of playing guitar. I'm trying to keep this tradition alive. There a lot of people doing it: myself, Kate Rusby, Eliza Carthy; a new generation of folk musicians exploding across the country, telling their own stories and narrating their own concerns. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Ian Burdon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:26 AM The Biscuits have a new cd due shortly. I think it was them that Andy Kershaw called "The best English folk group since The Clash": mischievous but he had a point IMHO Ian |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Feb 08 - 09:05 AM We live a land of many dimensions: age, gender, ethnicity, language class, education ................ ...... the idea of Englishness is interesting but it seems probable that it will many aspects. Who knows, the songs saved by rural working people may well make a conntribution |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Bonzo3legs Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:01 AM And I would hope, the songs contributed by rural professional men and women. It is NOT restricted to the working class. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:02 AM Mmmmmmmmmmm must be true Bonzo, but mostly? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Ed Date: 16 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM The full article is here for anyone interested. Idly musing on the notion of 'Englishness' I did a google search for the term. The top two resuts were for the mustrad traditional music site and for Billy Bragg. Does this tell us anything? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:49 PM I'm glad Seth warned us about the exploding folk musicians. Given his profession - I bet he's worried. Is there any particular song that triggers this phenomenon? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Surreysinger Date: 16 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM LOL |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:07 PM Englishness is making sure that somebody who is succesful, is brought to their knees. Don't we just love knocking people! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:29 PM You can see quite clearly where this thread is eventually headed. Charlotte (ducking for cover) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:34 PM Yes. One or more of the self-appointed critics who add nothing of value to the folk world will cut Lakeman down, and his supporters will come to his defense. Alas, he needs no defense from the few critics he has because he makes the music they only wish they could. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: greg stephens Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:22 PM Has someone been trolling on here and been deleted?Villan Molecatcher and Peace are all referring to some row that I can't see any sign of. Odd. Another contibutor to the article(cant remember who) picked out Ray Davies of the Kinks as the example of Englishness(Waterloo Sunset the specific song). Totally agree with that, though I think Dediocated Follower of Fashion would be my choice. He was a definitve chronicler of Enmgland(well, London, anway). Maybe Oasis for the northwest? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:29 PM Greg I really don't know what you are on about. I happen to think that the English are knockers and whingers and are never happy until sombody falls from grace. Oh Grace, catch me, I am falling off the bed. Les |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 16 Feb 08 - 04:38 PM The most vitriolic stuff I have seen on Mudcat aside from some political threads are posts from some British 'catters about musicians over there. Disgusting, actually. I understand what Villan is saying. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 16 Feb 08 - 05:20 PM "Villan Molecatcher and Peace are all referring to some row that I can't see any sign of" I was merely observing the general direction a thread like this could go, and Peace apparently agreed with me, nothing more, nothing less Charlotte (drawing the pictures) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Jack Campin Date: 16 Feb 08 - 05:57 PM Compare "Beeswing" with Belle Stewart's "Queen Among the Heather" (same storyline rendered very differently). I think I'll stick with Scottishness. I could stand to live in Eliza Carthy's England, but Lakeman's sounds like a place where everybody wore cashmere sweaters and the only reading material permitted would be the collected works of Mitch Albom and the Little Book of Hugs. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:03 PM Alas, he needs no defense from the few critics he has because he makes the music they only wish they could. I've heard nothing of SL that has attracted me. There are of course plenty of musicians who's skills I wish I had but for some reason, these are musicians who's playing and singing I enjoy. Oddly enough, I don't for example criticise Barney McKenna because he can do things on the tenor banjo that I can't. I admire his playing instead. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM Well, regrettable though it may be, Ian Drury's "Billericay Dicky" sums up quite a lot of the English. That dreadful first hit by Lilly Allen many more. Any number of folk tunes and folk songs sticking up two fingers at the French probably summarise a less short-sighted perspective rather better. Another quintessentially English songwriter would be Tom Robinson. His "Winter of 79" captured much of the dread of the Thatcher years. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:39 PM Tom Robinson of that period was pure genius. Quintessentially English. It was a pity the folkies didn't get him. I suppose there must have been some crossover as you used to get Greenham women at his gigs, but not much. I was green with envy at what he was achieving artistically. Can't recall feeling like that about another artist. He was so good the record company dropped him and he went into exile. When War Baby charted in '83, he came back and I think that's when the media career started. I suppose, he'd learned his lesson - that you can't rely on the English to recognise songwriting about their own country and predicament. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: greg stephens Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:43 PM People who get angry about directions threads might go in the future are going to get ulcers. Why not wait till it happens? Very strange goings on. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:45 PM Too tough a question for anyone to be able to give a succinct answer. When books have been written, trying to describe the English and "Englishness" (was it Colin Irwin that wrote the latest?), a single song would have no chance of being fully representative. Only partially. So you'd need many songs to have a chance at describing it. And probably next to zero chance of describing it to everyone's satisfaction, as there are so many views of Englishness, some borne out of different perspectives, some out of partisanship. So, in true English style, the answer perhaps ought to be... 42. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM Why the hell were Carthy and Lakeman selected for this by the Guardian anyway! This calls for a letter to the editor. I can only surmise that someone thought that Englishness has something to do with bloody big egos. There, I've gorn and said it. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Folknacious Date: 16 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM The Carthy/ Lakeman/ Rusby hate squad are probably going to drown in their own bile over this then: TV folk series |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:01 PM What hate squad? Why are people no longer allowed not to like certain folk artists? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:07 PM There is no hate squad. There is severe dislike of the pedestal placement of a handful of artists by the establishment. There may be just a little irony in there somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM As I said above, this is too big a subject for even the best to be able to answer. The article therefore, by definition, was not aiming at arriving at a definitive answer - it couldn't have. The best it could hope for was to raise some questions in the minds of its readers; at worst it was pandering to the masses, just fodder. And when you do that, you don't undertake extensive research. No, you just pick up the phone and call a couple of publicity agents for ideas. And they in turn will suggest whoever is on their books, or at least someone they have heard about. No conspiracy and no pedestal placement, just the publicity agents doing their job. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM So Carthy, Lakeman and Rusby don't get preferential treatment by the Beeb then, thinking especially of the Harding hour? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Feb 08 - 07:54 PM I can't say I'm bothered about who the Guardian decided to use. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:08 PM Steve, the Beeb has no preferences in my opinion. I believe they have the same view that Jon just expressed (with which I agree, by the way). They ask the agents, and the agents suggest. Now, let's not bemoan Eliza's, or Kate's or Seth's use of publicity agents or managers. When that is your livelihood, you go about it as professionally as you can, and using the tools the market provides. They are doing nothing wrong, and good luck to them. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 08 - 08:44 PM Publicity agents and managers, folk music? I think I'll keep playing the Irish and stick to Vaughan Williams for my quintessential Englishness then! And good luck to the brat-pack, as you say. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Betsy Date: 16 Feb 08 - 09:39 PM Written as an Englishman, with a love of all things British incl. Scottish ,Irish and Welsh custom, and music and song - The thread is a Load of Cack.Why we need to discuss the views of these two people's on "Englishness" is a complete nonsense. We need to stop all this otherwise we will end up as a as a third world nation conducts it's politics. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Feb 08 - 10:23 PM Theres a lot of resentment for songs never heard, talents neglected a folk community betrayed. there are people who say be grateful for what little the BBC provides. I don't think this is realistic in the circumstances. Having said that, its not these musicians' fault that they are at the vortex of this storm of discontent. Anyway does anybody give a stuff what anybody else thinks constitutes Englishness? There are those who thought Mrs Thatcher was the flower of patriotism, who knows perhaps they had a point. There were certainly enough of the buggers thinking something like that enough to keep voting for her. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:43 AM I'm a little surprised that a folksong singer and a neofolk singer were asked what song (note, not what "folksong") best describes Englishness. Is there a subtext here that popular music is no longer English? Most here who have actually tried to suggest such songs have not used folksongs as examples, perhaps because by definition folksongs address matters in the past and therefore provide roots for the present, and illuminate human nature and by analogy the present, but do not directly address present conditions (although the Jute Mill song and William Brown both show very close analogies). The social structures that provided for most broken-token songs and other songs of love lost and betrayed are happily almost wholly vanished. Ploughboys are gone (although I recall the verse added by the Young Tradition "There's a boy on a tractor a-going like hell And what farming is coming to sure no-one can tell") So are shantymen, the pressgang, and flogging round the fleet, dowries and killing one's daughter's suitors (well, mostly). Infanticide is rare. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:44 AM Oh, PS WLD, there are some who thought Thatcher the poison ivy of patriotism. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:09 AM Top marks to Eliza C, I say, for championing the vastly underrated Half Man Half Biscuit. It would have been so easy for her to be predictable and she admirably resisted the temptation. There again, she's made a career out of resisting the temptation to be predictable. More like her, please! Tom Robinson Band - not bad for pedestrian pub rock. I quite liked both of the tunes they kept using. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM Maybe Oasis for the northwest? When Steve Knightley asserted that Rule Britannia and Swing Low Sweet Chariot were the only songs the English know, various deluded dachshunds got all excited and said he was dead right. I made the point that I had just been with 60,000 people singing all the words to Live Forever and Don't Look Back In Anger and that there were plenty of other songs that the English public DO know. You just need to conduct the sample where the English actually gather and sing. That isn't necessarily just at Rugby Union matches (or folk clubs). Noel Gallagher has written some great English songs, which given he is of Irish extraction is excellent. However, given that Seth Lakeman has claimed Richard Thompson for the English when he is half Scots and Eliza Carthy cites the songwriting of someone of Iranian extraction born in Zanzibar, I'm OK with that! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:16 AM We are the champions by Queen comes to mind |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:38 AM "I was made in England" by Elton John (not sure if Taupin had a hand in this one). OK, I am being ironic, but then so was he, in his lyrics. Didn't stop the BNP yobs from espousing it, till someone explained the words to them. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:45 AM Oh, I suppose we could have gone for a differnt Elton John song - Saturday Night (all right for fighting). |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM As was written about and still is the case at Market Rasen where I live. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM 'Tom Robinson Band - not bad for pedestrian pub rock. I quite liked both of the tunes they kept using.' TR and the TRB produced two massive hits, 2468 Motorway and Warbaby. Two of the greatest anthemic English songs ever - Glad to be Gay and Martin. Tom could slip effortlessly from acoustic guitar, to keyboard, to bass guitar - and he was in there supporting everything decent about the English way of life, and the values of a liberal democracy. He was a great bandleader. This was without the benefit of monopolising the BBC Radio folk programmes, or being given BBC2 hour long programmes and major label writing contracts - before displaying any obvious merit. He was my kind of folk. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM WLD - don't get your underthings in a twist... at the time of TRB I was too busy enjoying punk to get that excited by a bunch of retro rockers. The only thing that gave them an edge were Tom's politics and out-and-proud sexuality. In retrospect, 'Rising Free' wasn't too bad (though very one dimensional - hence the 'two tunes' crack) but they certainly didn't have another halfway decent album in them. The 'War Babies' comeback was anodyne and MOR and not a patch on Tom's two crowning moments - and I agree with you here, you'll be dismayed to know -'Glad to Be Gay' and 'Martin'... Anyway - apart from GTBG, which was way too radical for the Beeb (lyrically if not musically) - he didn't exactly suffer from underexposure - you couldn't move for hearing 'Motorway' on the radio when it came out. And there can't be many hard feelings given that he works for 'em now! If you want a quintessentially English songwriter from that period, you could do a lot worse than Paul Weller: 'Down in the Tube Station', 'Eton Rifles', 'When You're Young, 'Town Called Malice' just for starters. What a brilliant wordsmith the man was... Dunno why Oasis always get brought up in these discussions. Noel Gallagher used to be able to knock out a very sinagable tune, but by his own admission he was a crap lyricist. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:25 AM Noel has produced quite a lot of dodgy lyrics (especially on Be Here Now) and he's not Chris Difford or Dylan to be sure. But there are some songs where he is really on form lyrically. Live Forever from the very first Oasis album being one, The Importance of Being Idle on the last album being another. Basically he's lazy and if he can't be bothered he bends to fit rather than leaving the song unfinished for weeks. When his muse if with him he's fine, and he's especially good on both Anthems and recycling and revitalising other people's tunes. Only Dylan probably did the latter more! Just how good a folksinger and writer Tom Robinson can be was demonstrated on the Faith, Folk & Anarchy project in his "Indian Summer" of 2001/2002, even if he was supposed to be providing the "Anarchy". |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM 'The only thing that gave them an edge were Tom's politics and out-and-proud sexuality.' At least he had an edge, at a time when the folkscene was still ballsing on about the first world war. Still I suppose its human frailty that lets us wallow in grief for names on a stone monument - rather than do something practical for people who are going through a shit time in the here and now. And we're all only human. In fact an edge would be nice to see nowadays. I suppose Steve Knightley's songs about the squalid economy of the south west area, and maybe McTell's Peppers and Tomatoes song, an perhaps John Blanks song about the Polish immigrants/Polish airmen in the WW2 show some sort of attempt to engage with reality - but theres little of that 'bite you on the arse' aggression that TRB found in their songs, and which I think really helped change the climate of opinion in England towards gay people. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Sandman Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:09 PM I went to school with Tom Robinson,the funny thing is that neither of us were in the school popgroups..,or were involved in the school music projects. Englishness[what is it?]or is it just stereotyping |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:13 PM I dunno, its like second nature. It could be the viking blood coursing though our veins which causes us to say Lark Ascending to Candleford by Way of Scottish Wool Shop and wipe my arse on Edwardian Ladies Notepaper! Terrible, but there it is.......! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:30 PM "There is severe dislike of the pedestal placement of a handful of artists by the establishment. There may be just a little irony in there somewhere." It has ever been thus, imo. It's not something new. Indeed some artists get preferential treatment. We have not seen an 'eclectic' presentation of music on radio for decades now. Stations select what they play and if it's supported by their audience, they keep playing that. I think radio stations would be well-advised to create shows that feature new or less well-known perfomers, because it seems obvious that they are losing their listening audiences here and there, much as churches are losing theirs. There's only so much same-ol that people will take. I think. Of course, not having been right about anything for a year now, I expect this won't make sense. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM Oh, Jaysus, I'm off to relive my misspent youth over at the Kill Your Pet Puppy anarcho-punk archive. WLD, pop over and have a look when you have a mo'... there's plenty of 'edge' there! Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:43 PM Maybe the problem Lizzie is that English isn't English anymore. Its anybody from any country these days which is creating the problem. Anyway your video of the english rivers can't be correct. Today, you see bottles, paper and any old rubbish in them and green choking weed. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:44 PM I suppose because basically we are a Christian culture. And Jesus said, love thine enemy - he didn't say pretend thine enemy doesn't exist, or is invisible. What gave We Shall Overcome, Where have all the flowers gone, Glad to be Gay and Kumbaya their power as songs was that they were sung in the face of a frightening enemy. Everybody agrees the first world war was rotten. Those of us who had relations who lived in the shitty regions of the social system that existed before the first world war - find the gospel of the antediluvian heaven that existed before that war, a bit of a choker. A bit like ante bellum songs of Stephen Foster - joly darkies strumming de banjo on de old plantation. If there was a time when we all had more substantial virtues and more respect and love for each other than we do now - well gold is where you find it. If you find it in the morris tunes and folksongs of that era, and songs written 'in the tradition' romanticising that era - best of luck to ya! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM Peace, the 'Oh Jaysus' wasn't a reflection on your post! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:53 PM LOL, Nigel. Either way. I know where your heart comes from. Not to worry. I am disappointed that Lizzie Cornish's posts were removed. They were good. Lots of people have enemies. When that enemy has the power to either edit what you say or prevent you from saying it, I think maybe it's time to re-look at things. And the way they're done. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 01:55 PM "The gentry of old in their feudal tradition are sitting duck targets for live ammunition" ... from 'Blood' off the Astronauts' 1983 album 'Its All Done By Mirrors'. I think they were being ironic... I've not heard this lovely album in years. I'm listening to it now at Kill Your Pet Puppy! Pop it in the search engine and have a listen. Particularly to 'Typical English Day' which is as tender and beautiful as anything I've ever heard and is actually relevent to this thread! Strangely. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM Punk - as punk - was a one-trick pony. The best things it produced had an additional dimension - for example as cited "Eton Rifles" (not really a "punk" song in style) - or "Peaches". Or "God save the Queen". But it really does illuminate matters somewhat to reflect that Johnny Rotten is a property speculator now. If you do bother to listen to the early Tom Robinson stuff - not just "Glad to be Gay" or "Motorway", but the political stuff - he was a very powerful lyricist and tunesmith. Quite apart from "the Winter of 79" which was prophetic - "I'm sorry if the soldiers have to hurt you Mr Harris But we've seen you with these people several times.. (etc)" Damn it the man even had Dumbya predicted. And he even wrote something that could become folk if enough people sing it - but actually he was a sod of a musician (simple sounding tunes with complex progressions underneath) and I can't figure out the chords or I WOULD do it - the Liddle Towers song. But, of course (to keep you happy, WLD) he was not a folk singer, nor were his songs folk songs. Nigel, most of punk was vacuous. Even teh frisson dies after 4 songs that sound just the same. I went to see Stiff Little Fingers once. They were supporting Ted Nugent. Worst gig I ever saw. Probably the second worst was the much feted Doll by Doll. Go shoot up a Ramone or something. Lizzie - don't be soppy. Englishness is not just about the Vicarage clock at Grantchester, or the phobic bigotry of Kipling, or the effortless sense of superiority of Richard Hannay in the 39 steps (or Biggles, or Dan Dare, come to that). It includes the violence for cause that did give us a revolution against the Jacobite kings, the blood spilt by the miners, the Peterloo massacre. It includes the violence without cause celebrated by the Dandy and the Beano. There are more pools of blood on the dancehall floor than there are Bronte sisters - and where would their muse have been without insanity and we can speculate on the wellspring of that. It also gave us many of the world's most influential writers on constitutional law, but it never gave us Machiavelli, Hitler, Napoleon, Mussolini, Pol Pot or Stalin. It gave us the society in which Karl Marx could write. Englishness is a complex thing. Probably beyond one song. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,The Molre Catcher's Apprentice Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:06 PM "People who get angry about directions threads might go in the future are going to get ulcers. Why not wait till it happens? Very strange goings on." sorry..hate to disappoint you, but I was merely making an observation, which in part seems to be on its way to being fulfilled. It would take a good deal more than a Mudcat thread to anger me Charlotte (you must be joking of course) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:29 PM Why have Lizzie's messages been removed? The ones I read seemed inoffensive. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:33 PM "Why have Lizzie's messages been removed? The ones I read seemed inoffensive." apparently she's been barred from posting on this site..AND there are a few "Mudcatters" who think that I, The Mole catcher's Apprentice, an Lizzie Cornish using yet another alias. I do have this from a VERY reliable source by the way. Charlotte (chuckling away to herself) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:40 PM Bryan Ferry is Englishness as well as the Kinks. Did you know that Bryan was born in Washington? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:42 PM I like Ferry's work. His "Dylanesque" was great, much of it. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:50 PM Based on the phrase Englishness...On An Island - David Gilmour was described by a critic, whose name escapes me at present, as "a laid-back, utterly elegant English record" some electric, some acoustic, personally I like the record. Charlotte (open to good music) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Feb 08 - 02:51 PM Bryan Ferry was in the class below me at primary school in Washington. As was Howard Kendall. (Just adding to the heap of useless and irrelevant garbage this thread has, predictably, descended into). |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:03 PM Now now countess. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:07 PM Well they certainly did a lot better than you have ever done Diane. Your intrusion has just dropped it down into super garbage. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:26 PM As it goes, a tiny fraction of the Grauniad debate on Englishness was lifted from Another Place where it I had initiated a discussion in its proper context. Yes, CONTEXT is all. Richard Bridge rightly outlines the idiocy of citing Grantchester, Kipling and Hannay. And he's probably the only other participant here who has actually read the Grauniad piece. Actually, it's a great pity Ferry's son Otis wasn't sent to Usworth Colliery Junior mixed School as well then he might not have got mixed up with the cruel country sports mob. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:32 PM Do I see the green envy of jealosy Diane? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:39 PM Hey Peace, what about Bryan Ferry doing Donavan "Donavanesque" |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:41 PM Excuse me, are you asking whether I am "jealos" (sic) of those whose preferred, ever so "English" pursuit is to gallop around the countryside brutally killing hares and foxes? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:45 PM No sorry I spelt it wrong. I meant jealousy The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, 10th Edition defines jealousy as "a jealous disposition, attitude, or feeling," where the word jealous is defined as being intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness, disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness, hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage, vigilant in guarding a possession. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:46 PM 'Hey Peace, what about Bryan Ferry doing Donavan "Donavanesque"' Ya know, THAT would epitomize the term 'folk' and freeze it in time, imo. GOOD idea. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM Do you think it should be him on his own, or with Roxy Music, Peace? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:51 PM "killing hares" On the fourteenth of May at the dawn of the day with me gun on me shoulder, to the woods I did stray I search of some game, if the weather proved fair, To see could I get a shot at the bonny black hare.... you mean that pastime? Charlotte (the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Ian Burdon Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:54 PM "Richard Bridge rightly outlines the idiocy of citing Grantchester, Kipling and Hannay. And he's probably the only other participant here who has actually read the Grauniad piece." er, no: I read it too and I'd suspect that the person who started the thread did too. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:54 PM Villan, Villan, Villan. WITH Roxy Music, else the 'folk' part doesn't apply. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:00 PM OK, I will give him a call and suggest he does it with Roxy Music then. Do you mean in the style of Virgin Pain |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:01 PM Tsk, now you're just being . . . indelicate. On reflection, I'd make an exception for Mr Lakeperson's albino bunny. Open season on that . . . (looking up jugged hare recipes). |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:04 PM Oops sorry, I did a spell check but it didn't pick up the error. I meant Virginia Plain. A bit like this Virginia Plain My wife thinks he is very sexy and wouldn't think twice about leaving me for him. Incidentally, is the drummer a woman? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:15 PM "Another contibutor to the article(cant remember who) picked out Ray Davies of the Kinks as the example of Englishness(Waterloo Sunset the specific song). Totally agree with that, though I think Dediocated Follower of Fashion would be my choice. He was a definitve chronicler of Enmgland(well, London, anway). Maybe Oasis for the northwest?" Don't forget We Are the Village Green Preservation Society. I think the quintessencial English artist was Vivian Stanshall. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:17 PM "Virginia Plain" on YOUTUBE. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:35 PM My missus thinks he oozes sex, Bryan Ferry that is. Ray Davies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkUsF-tJ0XY&feature=related Kate Rusby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRK6U5vIHCs |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Sandman Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM what a stupid question.why are the Guardian wasting their time on half witted questions like this. Englishness means something entirely different to Prince Charles,or a member of the Landed Gentry,than it would to a single mother in Lewisham. Nick Griffins definition of Englishness,would be quite different from Ken Livingstone. All it does is tell us something about the person being interviewed,now if they had asked this question of Karl Marx or Bertrand Russell or Einstein [when they were alive]we might have got some interesting answers. instead of which we get a load of half baked squit.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:42 PM "we might have got some interesting answers." to misquote Mr. Miles interesting means something entirely different to Prince Charles,or a member of the Landed Gentry,than it would to a single mother in Lewisham....etc..etc... Charlotte (non-vested interest) |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Borchester Echo Date: 17 Feb 08 - 04:53 PM Nobody batted an eyelid when Dick said he went to the same school as Tom Robinson but when I remarked that Bryan Ferry and I attended the same primary school it caused a riot. Is this interesting? I think not. Though why exactly should a perception of "Englishness" be determined by how much money you have? Discuss. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:05 PM Of course its interesting Diane, you mentioned it. I guess that people think of England as the place where everybody has loads of money and owns a stately mansion, just like they portray on the Tv and films. That is what Englishness is seen as IMHO. My mother's perception of englishness is Upstairs Downstairs and she is 91 (God bless her cotton picking socks). She is in a sort of Mansion. Its called a Nursing Home. We all know what nursing homes are like these days - don't we. The place where they leave you to hang out and die. That is what Englishness is about these days. A place where we don't care about our eldrely. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:10 PM *Elderly |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Sandman Date: 17 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM Most of the support for xenophobic political parties,comes from poor white working class people,who fear they will lose their jobs to immigrants,who are not English.these people perceive themselves as English,and feel threatened. Prince Charles perceives himself as English,however because he is wealthy and educated ,he does not have the same fears. his perception of being English will be quite different. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM unless you're a folksinger, then you lose your job to the middle class bores. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:55 PM Al, folksinging and folksong singing are not jobs, they are callings. And at times Prince Charles seems to have a good handle on some of the things that the English fear and for which the English hope - his enunciation of the fear that brutalist architecture evokes, and realisation that communities need t obe mixed and to the human scale goes way beyond the appreciation of most town planners, for example. At other times he makes the same mistakes as many men when (like McCartney) he fails to spot that a simper hides a honey badger. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:57 AM You gotta admit though Richard, we're not getting a lot of working class input into the folkscene these days. I sometimes wonder where its all going. You sit there in the folk club and its full of daft old gits like oneself. And theres something missing. Writers like Ian Campbell and Bert Jansch. We don't seem to attracting young people of that quality, these days - writing about their lives, like we did at the start of the game. Perhaps the whole movement is running out of steam. I know we do our best. But the songs you write aged fifty and sixty aren't the ones you write when you're young. I didn't even find a voice til my mid 20's, by which time lyric poets like Keats had snuffed it or done his best stuff. Probably Bert Jansch and the Beatles too. Poor sods like Carthy and Lakeman (2nd generation rum tum tiddlers) aren't going to come up with the answers for us. Perhaps if we can just locate those young people with a bit of fire in their belly........England will break free the icy hand of The Fisher King and all will be well in the Garden of Albion. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:18 AM Purely in the interest of accuracy, when Richard cites The Young Tradition as adding a line (in fact it was an extra verse) to their recording of 'The Ploughshare' or 'Seasons'... "There's a boy on a tractor a-going like hell, And what farming is coming to sure no-one can tell" ...it was in fact Jim Copper (from whom they'd collected the song) who wrote it as his own comment on the modern methods of farming circa 1950. This of course adds nothing to the debate except perhaps an English love of pedantry. Some wit will no doubt think that should read peasantry. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:01 AM Thank you Jon, I didn't know that. I suppose I should have checked "Coppersongs" before uttering. No, WLD, I don't agree with you again. There are plenty (proportionately) of working class it seems to me in folk clubs, and very few plummy accents. I speak RP but am not plummy (IMHO) thanks to a young childhood in Australia and a conscious rejection of upper middle class values as a rebellion while I was at public school. I hear very very few people in folk clubs who speak better than I do. I don't see many young people (and from my perspective that's people under 40) and fewer still young women. That puzzles me a bit in that it was treated as a given when I was at university that when people like me then went to listen to underground rock, or to discos, many women went in stead to folk clubs where they would not feel so sexually intimidated. But then I look at my daughter's female friends dressed for a night's hunting and realise that perhaps today it is the young women who are almost as often the sexual aggressors. Every so often some of them will come with her to a folk club if she is going to sing and they will always say that they really enjoyed it - and last year at Sweeps fest one of her friends (not, as it happens, a female one but a male one, who plays in a dark metal band) commented that what he really liked most about it was that people were making music rather than just consuming it as product. At the end of the day, however, the evening out for the young is driven by hormones, probably more overtly than ever before, and the folk club is not now a suitable venue for that. Nonetheless, there are still many young people writing songs. They just aren't folk songs. They are still playing them. Just not in folk clubs. The medium of rejection of the values of ones parents (a common part of starting to grow up) is no longer the acoustic guitar, and gradually less and less (IMHO) even the electric guitar, but the electronoc loop. I submit that it is a lot easier to express the anger with which you reject oppression by the gerontocracy by the use of an electronic loop, using skills you acquired playing shoot-em-up games, than by having to learn an instrument. Which may be why the instrumental skills of the young we do see in instrument-playing music are so remarkable. What I can't explain is why with almost the sole exception of my daughter, who can be very very loud indeed as a singer, young singers and particularly young female singers don't sing out unless they have a microphone and some don't even then. Metallers growl. EMO singers scream. Those are the exceptions. Indies whine rather less loudly, and most of the rest mumble and simper. I can't make up my mind whether this is thread drift or not. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:05 AM "...Perhaps if we can just locate those young people with a bit of fire in their belly........England will break free the icy hand of The Fisher King and all will be well in the Garden of Albion". Oh, they exist alright. They are just in bands like the Arctic Monkeys and the Kaiser Chiefs and were in a band called the Libertines. Most in their own generation have spotted them and their songs except those that restrict their musical diet to only "folk". Several of them seem to have made it through the "dangerous" age of 27 too, despite their copious consumption of "substances". |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:08 AM Richard, I bet you look good on the morris dance floor! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:38 AM Slightly less sequins than in the "traditional" arrangement! Diamonds Are Forever |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:47 AM England by Ralph McTell |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: KeithofChester Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:12 AM Technically this folk song is from Greenock via Bournemouth and California, but it's set in England and in a specific time and place too. Gina In The Kings Road I often wonder how many Al Stewart LPs Neil Tennant listened to in his youth, because he gets the delivery, if not the lyrical content, spot on! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: greg stephens Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:27 AM Wee Little Drummer: as KeithofChester said, why should you expect the youngsters with fire in their bellies to go to folk clubs to sing their songs? There are plenty of other outlets where young songwriters can find young audiences, which is generally what they want.Why should we expect Amy Winehouse or Pete Doherty, for example, to come and sing at a folk club? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:22 PM Heaven forfend we should get Amy Whitehouse, we want some beer left for us! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: The Borchester Echo Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:41 PM I saw Mick Jagger in Padstow one Mayday, And on the Ruzzer thread Ronan Keating is sounding off about going to Spiers & Boden gigs. But then, he's Irish. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:06 PM Er, my bad, Winehouse. Mind you I don't want Whitehouse either. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Bonzo3legs Date: 18 Feb 08 - 05:17 PM Englishness is how it used to be before we had "communities", and when we had 2 postal deliveries before midday and 3 at Christmas, and when nobody got "offended" on behalf of others who really couldn't care less! |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:52 PM Is there an over-eager elf out there? Reallising that my post just above was 99, I also posted the 100, simply to claim it. It's been zapped. Has someone changed the rules round here? |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Rasener Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:04 AM LOL Richard. I stopped trying to do 100 some time ago when Joe zapped me. However since then, I watch for people posting 100 and smile when they aren't zapped. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:20 AM My name is John MacKenzie, and I was a claimer of 100th posts. G ¦¬] [Who is cured!] |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:02 AM But to deny the class war, to deny the role of the Great Strike in the making of the English working class, etc, is as blinkered as Marie Antoinette. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: George Papavgeris Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:50 AM Agreed, Richard - one shouldn't deny the effect of the class war in the making of Englishness (and not just the working classes, either); equally, to give it undue prominence over other important factors would be like single-issue politics. It has its - very important - place, but it isn't an umbrella to cover all. I am not sure if that is what the phantom poster was getting at, this is just my own view. So, what other such factors are there? Oh, dozens; just off the top of my head: The age of exploration and discovery; the social impact of the industrial revolution and the advancement of science; climate; the Empire and its wars; the movement of people in- and out of the country at different times; the fact that it was never occupied; the fact that it has at times been an occupier; religion and related conflicts; the control of education by the Church in the 15-17th centuries, and by the general Establishment thereafter. The list is long. |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:12 AM All these foreigners coming over here, writing lovely songs! G |
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Subject: RE: E Carthy/S Lakeman on Englishness From: Pete_Standing Date: 19 Feb 08 - 09:25 AM Typical isn't it, we have to rely on a Greek to define Englishness for us ;o) Hope the album launch goes well GP! Best regards Pete |
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