In Search of Nic Jones CD

Subject: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,RP
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 04:54 AM

Heard a copy of this CD over the weekend was knocked out by it.

Have struggled to find one locally (UK) or through the usual online places.

Any help for a UK supplier, where I can pay by card would be appreciated. thanks!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:05 AM

Itr can be bought from the Nic Jones web-site .

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:06 AM

You could try here on Nic's official site, where you'll find details of all his other stuff which is currently available.
This is the place

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:06 AM

Oh well - just one minute too late [grins]

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:10 AM

also available from fish records where you can pay electronically.

It is a great disc, probably the best of the self released material of the past 10 years.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:00 AM

(Memo to Self.....Write before posting!)

Ahem.....May I put in a mention for the second re-issue "Unearthed"?
A double CD, released a few years after "In Search Of"
Not that I have any vested interest, Honest Guv!
Seriously, contact Nic and Julia at there website listed above.
Julia will sort out all your requests, Oh,
And there is also the Topic retrospective released last year....
Hope you've got a good credit limit!!!!

Good luck and enjoy

Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:39 AM

Hey Ralphie, I have been trying to PM you, but I suppose as you are posting as guest, you can't log in.

Could you drop me an email maybe? You can do this by going to my site www.greenhedges.com and clicking on email. (This way I don't have to let my email address escape to the world)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,HipflaskAndy
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 08:46 AM

I'll second the 'Unearthed' plug. It's grand.

Fish distribute for Nic & Julia.... by all means buy electronically via them - but I'd venture you might buy direct from Nic & Julia's own Mollie Music via the links given above (to Nic's website).
They'll make more from that transaction!
- and phoning or ordering by letter won't take that much longer.
Cheers - HFA - (Duncan McFarlane)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,RP
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for all the help.
Have ordered for fish records, and already had a note saying it has shipped, so hopefully will have a copy tomorrow.
Thanks again

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:11 AM

purchase directly from Nic and Julia, and cut out the middle man, as has been noted they'll make more money that way

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: KeithofChester
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM

Mollie Music aren't helping themselves take direct orders by insisting on being paid by paper payments methods like cheques.
Almost every other seller now has electronic payment facilities of some sort.

My assumption has always been that when people make it much easier to buy from the likes of Fish (who are VERY reliable) that's the way to go.

Amazon are temporarily out of stock, but one of their merchants is trying to flog a second hand copy for GBP54!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:08 PM

"Amazon are temporarily out of stock, but one of their merchants is trying to flog a second hand copy for GBP54!"

Another VERY good reason, if you need one, not to buy from Amazon.

Charlotte (buys directly from the musician or musicians, where possible)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:22 PM

Or you could order it (along with the other 5 Nic Jones CDs) rrom CAMSCO

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 12:40 PM

the other 5 Nic Jones CDs (CDs??) from Camsco

I think not.

The only recordings authorised by the artist himself and for which he receives royalties are the two Mollie releases (In Search of / Unearthed) and the two Topic ones (Penguin Eggs / Game Set Match, all available direct from Mollie who, no, don't have an electronic online purchasing facility but perhaps cannot, for obvious reasons, afford to run one.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM

"the other 5 Nic Jones CDs (CDs??) from Camsco

the same thought occurred to me while I was out of the house as has occurred to Diane. I remembered reading the Camsco entry earlier on, but it didn't strike me as odd until I was at the shops...having remembered the trouble there is with Nic's Leader recordings in the UK.

I think I'll ordering any CDs by Nic Jones directly from Nic and Julia at Mollie Music and, as I earlier stated, avoid the middle man.....

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Doc John
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 05:40 PM

Why don't Nic & Julia Jones set up electronic payment to make it easier for customers? was wondered above. It is very expensive to do so especially with a relatively low turnover. Paypal may be more reasonable but I don't know the details of this; perhaps someone does.
Please always think about buying from Mollie Music first: they charming and very efficient!
Doc John

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:22 PM

if you visit my website,I have a shop with pay pal,it is in my opinion really important,and its not expensive to set up.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:36 PM

The really nice thing about buying from Nic and Julia was that they took the time to write in reply to the letter I'd sent them with my cheque. Now that to me was beyond price and in this instance at least knocked Paypal out of the frame.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM

To echo Dianes thoughts.
The only sanctioned releases by Nic and His family are.
Penguin Eggs and Game Set Match (Topic Records)
In Search Of and Unearthed (Mollie Music)
The Others.....
Ballad and Songs
Nic Jones
Noahs Ark Trap
Devil To A Stranger

Are NOT, repeat NOT sanctioned for release due to a very long lasting rights issue, (see the thousands of threads on that one!)

As has been said, All the available records can be obtained either directly from Nic and Julia (And Hey, what price for a letter from the family itself?) or from Fish records in the UK.

I personally think that it's quite refreshing to actually write a cheque and go down to the post office to send it!!

Hope the above helps to clarify the situation.

Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:01 AM

Ralphie,I am glad to hear someomes keeping the postmen employed.
I am fairly sure that I would sell less items on my website if I didnt use paypal.
I think Nic and Julia would be well advised to give it consideration,in my experience it increases sales.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

this thread is about Nic Jones and the access to his recordings isn't it...?

"Why don't Nic & Julia Jones set up electronic payment to make it easier for customers?"

the answer to that was in Diane's posting 28 Feb 08 - 12:40 PM

"Mollie who, no, don't have an electronic online purchasing facility but perhaps cannot, for obvious reasons, afford to run one."

it's not like we're all made of money.

Charlotte (setting the record straight)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:43 AM

Probably best to avoid a seller at SE306553 (an OS Grid reference!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM

"Probably best to avoid a seller at SE306553 (an OS Grid reference!)"

Agreed Andy. I made a veiled reference that same co-ordinate in my
28 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM posting

Charlotte (buys directly when possible)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Doc John
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM

That grid reference? After Watergate, why do we add ...gate onto everything theses day?!
Doc John

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 04:47 PM

Because the name of the place, in this case, ends in gate.....?*LOL*

Charlotte (not deep throat)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice - PM
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

..."it's not like we're all made of money" ...

Charlotte (setting the record straight)

I'm not made of money either, but I have a Paypal account which I use both to buy and sell.

It seems to me that Nic could use some friends who might actually help instead of hinder.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 07:34 AM

I know their situation, personally.
It is not a simple a matter of finance.
Julia runs Mollie from a spare room in their house.
She is (by her own admission) not too great at using the PC.
They do, indeed, need someone to aid them in setting up PayPal,
I do know they'd like to have that facility.
Anyone that's a dab hand on the computer front (in the Devon area)
might care to email her (via Mollie site) and volunteer to set them up. I'm sure they'd appreciate that.
Cheers - Duncan McFarlane

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: KeithofChester
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 07:43 AM

It is all explained here.

Getting Paid via PayPal

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 11:48 AM

Duncan , many thanks for clarifying the situation, it's too bad I'm no where near the area (about 5000 miles no where near), I'd volunteer immediately it I was.

And I'm interested in Nic and Julia's situation, not the situation of other musicians. Thank You

Charlotte (this view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:43 PM

These are the Nic Jones CD's available at Nic's official website, as previously mentioned by Diane:

In Search Of Nic Jones MMCD01 £12.00

Unearthed MMCD02/03 £17.00

Penguin Eggs TSCD411 £11.00

Game Set Match TSCD566 £13.00

Now, perhaps someone can explain to me where this, found on Camsco Music's website, fits in to the picture

"LER 2014d Ballads and Songs Nic Jones "
(I believe I already know the answer, I just want to hear it from someone else)


the original Leader/Trailer catalogue number is LER 014
Ballads and Songs was relesed on the Tailer yellow label in 1970

information sourced from the
Musical Traditions Traditional Discography

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

in my hurry to post the previous message I misspelled Trailer and released, as you may have noticed *LOL*

Charlotte (spell check isn't working)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:16 PM

Both "Ballads and Songs" and the eponymous "Nic Jones" are on the Leader label. the number 2014 designates the CD-R release of the LP 014.

CAMSCO's prices are:
Game, Set, Match: $13.98
Penguin Eggs: $13.98
Ballads and Songs $18.00
Nic Jones: $18.00
In Search Of: $18.00
Unearthed: $25.00

All prices in US dollars plus S&H

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:30 PM

Nic Jones official website trumps Camsco everytime..and, of course Nic and Julia get the money, thus cutting out the middle man...or shouold I say, middle men....

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM

Mollie Music Mail Order

Mollie Music,
PO Box 189,
Yelverton,
Devon.
UK
PL19 1BA

Charlotte (this view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM

I put paypal on my website. It was quite difficult for someone like me who has very little computer savy & who does well with blueprints but not with written directions. It took me a number of times & many days to work through it even with the directions & advice. If Julia's worst than me with computers then I'd imagine it's a nightmare for her, maybe a computer savy friend could help her in setting it up?

Barry

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Anne Lister
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 03:45 AM

The beauty of PayPal is you don't have to have it on your website as a separate button, you just have to offer the possibility of it and people can do it all via email. I'm speaking from experience here - I haven't got around to putting the PayPal "button" on my website yet, but I've sold a number of CDs from my website using PayPal. It just means instead of completing an order form and putting it in the post with a cheque people send you an email, verify your PayPal email address and bob's your uncle.
As cheques are being phased out, it's probably a good way to go if operating a credit card system is too expensive.

Anne

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 05:21 AM

You've put it succinctly Barry - that's exactly what I was meaning.
I didn't manage to sort paypal on our own site, had to get a mate that's real PC savvy to set it up for me (which he did with ease!
I was hoping someone (near enough) might volunteer to do the same for the Jones.

And thanks Tabster-Anne, interesting. Wasn't aware of that (me being a partial PC numpty).
Perhaps you could send Julia the 'know how' by post or email in a step by step form? Bless ya. - Duncan

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: KeithofChester
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 05:35 AM

I've bought things from a number of people doing it the way Tabster is talking about.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Anne Lister
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 02:24 AM

Duncan, if you can pm me with Julia's email I'd be happy to help.

Anne

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:50 AM

Have done so, Anne - thanks - Duncan

PS Anyone else needing to contact the Jonses - to buy or make enquiries
- the email address is there for all to view at Mollie Music website
- someone has already done the blue clicky link a wee bit further up this thread. Cheers!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 04:52 AM

"the original Leader/Trailer catalogue number is LER 014
Ballads and Songs was relesed on the Tailer yellow label in 1970

information sourced from the
Musical Traditions Traditional Discography"

Hi MCA

Just for the sake of accuracy the original cat no of the vinyl was LER2014.

It's explained on the mustrad website but can be bit confusing. The Leader/Trailer releases initially followed a 4 digit numerical pattern where the first digit was 2.3 or 4 depending on price and the next 3 digits followed a numerical sequence 001, 002 etc. In order to show the list in a numerical sequence mustrad has the initial digit in white which hardly shows up against the background but can be seen if text is highlighted.

Of course none of that information helps Nic or the other people whose L/T releases are lost, hidden, not available etc.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:28 PM

I got mine, as many as I have direct from Julia.
No problems whatsoever, shipped to Canada.
JohnB who for some reason does not have "Game Set and Match", must correct that situation, WITH A CHEQUE.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:48 PM

Kevin, I re-read Mustrad and got it right.

"Of course none of that information helps Nic or the other people whose L/T releases are lost, hidden, not available etc."

nor is it constructive in any way that CD-Rs of Nic's work are being distributed.

Charlotte (fair is fair)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 06:14 PM

Steve Turner sang Ruins by the Shore this evening (with all due acknowledgments, of course), when he guested at the Herga Folk Club.

Kitty

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 08:15 PM

"nor is it constructive in any way that CD-Rs of Nic's work are being distributed."

Why not?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:06 AM

I didn't find any difficulty in setting up Paypal (But not many people have used it!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:15 AM

Dick, the argument is well spread over Mudcat.
You are playing Devil's Advocate, I think?

The two 'camps' will never agree on the rights & morals,
but just to make it emphatically clear from my standpoint....

Your company (well, I take it the 'Dick' on the contact page of the said site is you?)
is advertising (one of) the now famous 'disputed' CDRs
I will, therefore, never buy anything from that company.
Furthermore, I will positively encourage any folk fans, friends, anyone I have course to discuss the matter with,
or that are in any audience I stand before at gigs and festivals, by any means I can,
to similarly boycott yours, or any company selling the said CDRs until those items are withdrawn from sale.

You have your policy - I have mine.
Yours (very) sincerly - Duncan McFarlane

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

Duncan.
I can add no more.
A plague on all the houses of people who retail bogus CDs.
Well said mate.
Ralph Jordan.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:30 AM

Was I right in my previous analysis, that composer's rights and arranger's rights have to be totally independent of the rights to the sound recording? Because there may be third parties involved, who have no contract with the recording company. (i.e once a song is published, it can be recorded by anyone)

If the CDR does not carry the MCPS logo (either on the CD or the insert) or equivalent for the country of production, then there is no guarantee that this legal requirement being observed.

If the CDR DOES carry this logo, then the composer and arranger should be getting appropriate royalties from the MCPS, which would be easy for the owner of the rights to check.

So do they or not? it should be simple to check.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:36 AM

Duncan.
As a postscript.
It's interesting that the first 2 NJ recordings.
Nic Jones.
Ballads and Songs.
Have been released sneakily as CD-Rs.
But the two famous recordings.
Noahs Ark Trap.
Devil To A Stranger.
Haven't been touched...
I wonder why?
I have to say that if they where released without regard to the family, I would be on the first train north..
Fancy a trip?
Ralph

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:11 AM

A quick check on the original sleeves...
and every title on all four of Nic's first albums
shows that they are all Trad Arr Jones and no other composer/writer to account to/for.

True fans should note....
CDRs of the 'missing' albums are being sold.
The Jonses family do not approve of their slae.
They get NO monies as a result of any sales.
There are (stress) NO CDs/CDRs of these 4 albums out there that
the Jonses approve of, or will benefit from.
However much you might desire these albums, DO bear that in mind should you purchase them.
They are...
Nic Jones.
Ballads and Songs.
Noahs Ark Trap.
Devil To A Stranger.

..and as I said above -(just a personal stance) I would advocate you DON'T buy them
until the matter is resolved if you really have Nic's interests at heart.
- Duncan

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:30 AM

Still wondering about the audio stream on the site mentioned in the Little Musgrave thread.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 06:51 AM

I am not sure that my point has got through.

1. Would the ARRANGER's rights necessarily have been signed away by the performer? - I don't think so, but I am not a lawyer. I believe that anyone else using these arrangements (and in some cases tunes) would have to make some royalty payment to the owner of the copyright. Does that hold for the issued sound recordings?

2. Therefore, as far as I can tell, whoever issues CDR's should be paying at least the arranger's royalties.

3. The MCPS collect these royalties on behalf of the copyright owner, and base their distribution on the number of copies created.

4. MCPS know exactly how many are pressed, if genuine CD's but they have no way to count the number of CDR's burned. This has been put forward as a reason for CDR in the first place. I believe it is not too expensive to get proper CD's pressed in the small quantity which a folk release would require (I am sure have seen quotes for 500 or 1000.)

5. If the MPCS logo is not present, then they have obviously not been paid, therefore the copyright owners will not get anything.

6. If it is present, then MCPS should know how many are created.

7. If the MCPS find that someone is not paying up on just ONE CDR issue, how many of their other members are also being cheated by the same organisation? Would the MCPS take action? They have deeper pockets than the composers, and exist to enforce their members' rights anyway.

SO do the CDR's in question have the MCPS logo? So far, no-one has answered that question.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:24 AM

The Celtic CD-Rs I have seen do not have an MCPS imprint. This indicates that accurate returns for the purpose of calculating mechanical royalties are not being made. As CM does not (at last time of checking) hold an MCPS licence for CD pressing (indeed they no longer have a pressing plant), it is rather difficult to say they are doing anything actually illegal. Borderline, yes.

As far as arranger/composer rights are concerned, these are calculated and due royalties distributed by the PRS. In one specific instance, a former Trailer artist was quite astonished to receive a royalty cheque (being 50% of that due) in respect of airplay for a CD-R reissue of his first album (the other 50% went to the "publisher", a Mr D Bulmer as in the original contract). It was the first he knew that Bill Leader's former plugger was burning his work and selling it. Is this illegal? Dubious. It's not nice though.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:39 AM

You say:
"As CM does not (at last time of checking) hold an MCPS licence for CD pressing (indeed they no longer have a pressing plant), it is rather difficult to say they are doing anything actually illegal. Borderline, yes."

Not a criminal offence but a civil one, I think, and the perpetrator can be sued.

If there is anything on the CD(R) to which MCPS (or their members)have rights, and there is no MCPS logo, then there is clear evidence of wrongdoing and they can take legal action to recover the amount due.

If we look at all the CDR issues, for all artists, then we might well find something to act upon. Song and arrangement copyrights are notoriously difficult to research, including folk songs. Look at Paul Simon and Scarborough Fair, as one example.

PRS are for PERFORMING rights, MCPS for PUBLISHING as I understand, so the PRS would not be interested here.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 07:55 AM

The MCPS exists to protect mechanical copyright and the onus therefore rests with the physical producer of the CDs to declare how many are made.

The PRS protects intellectual rights when your music is performed, recorded or broadcast.

They both live in the same building.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:00 AM

Eaxactly.

My point is that if the MPCS ever find a CD or CDR without their logo, and on which they have rights over some of the material, then they have cause to take action.

If I am wrong, then why do I bother to pay MPCS fees on CDR's which my wife makes.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

The sad thing is that while the 4 Nic Jones Leader LPs remain in this semi-limbo state the easiest way to acquire them is courtesy of Rapidshare or via torrent. A lot of people feel that so long as they're not legitimately available then downloading them is sort of okay

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:29 AM

To pavane

You are nearly correct about the duties etc of MCPS but they are, like the MU (for instance) a rather toothless old dog.

CM (if they have "put into distribution" an item which in itself infringes copyright) or indeed anyone infringing copyright commits a CRIMINAL offence quite aside from any civil action brought by a third party. The Copyright Designs and Patent Act of 1986 details all the relevant ways of infringement and the penalties for doing so.

From what I am led to understand, the chances of MCPS doing anything whatsoever are limited to put it mildly. There are other routes to focus the attentions of actual and would-be infringers and that is in the first instance via the local Trading Standards department. If they can be convinced that infringing items are in existence, it is within their power to enter premises under an Anton Pilar order and "remedy" the situation.

We are all likely to evaporate before MCPS or PRS decamp from their cosy armchairs.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 11:38 AM

Oh well, another blind alley I suppose.

So who WOULD the arranger's (and composer's) rights belong to?
Would they have to be specifically assigned to someone?
If I wanted to record a song using Nic's arrangement (wish I had the ability!), or perhaps publish the arrangement as tablature, say, who would I pay the royalties to?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:15 PM

If you wanted to record one of Nic's songs then providing it has been or is in "first distribution" you do not need any permission but as always it is courteous to gain that OK if you can. It is up to the person who then distributes that title to register the new performance with MCPS etc so that WHEN it is manufactured (by any means) the mechanicals royalties are accounted and collected. Reciprocal deals with other collecting agencies will then mean that royalties are collected and distributed properly from any territory in the World where the record is manufactured and sold.

The manufacturer of the "mechanical" piece (CD, Vinyl, tape etc) needs obtain a licence to manufacture and the granting of that licence, in the UK, has been gifted to the MCPS. If the title is not registered with MCPS by a composer/arranger member etc, the MCPS will have no interest in it and will not collect on behalf of the member concerned. That does not mean therefore that a royalty is not payable and the manufacturer will need to ensure that due arrangements have been made to pay the royalty to the publisher/author/arranger independently of the MCPS or risk procedings under the law. I think it goes without saying that the chances of being "done" other than by MCPS are remote as so many who SHOULD know better simply dont take care of their copyrights. They then become prey to Carion!!! You know what I mean, I am sure.

In short its a minefield where artistes etc are routinely rogered by unscrupulous individuals and companies simply because they fail to bother with such details.

There are also many cases where certain people have had the audacity to "claim" ownership of PD/Trad titles!! Does the MCPS care, nah. They will generally take the line of least resistance and pay out to the most audacious! This often happens when titles with the same name (but otherwise entirely different) are "claimed" by the better known "owner". Poor old Buck Owens lost out big time to the Presley writers for the song "Hot Dog" for instance.

There is no doubt that the best, safest and most honest way is to engage with the original writer/artist/publisher or its estate to ensure that copyright is acknowledged and that any recording deal is set up properly and is mindful of the obligation to remit the appropriate royalties.

Sorry if that sounds like a lecture but its a topic very close to me and one I feel quite passionately about.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 12:18 PM

""nor is it constructive in any way that CD-Rs of Nic's work are being distributed."

Why not? "

the word immoral comes to mind, not ilegal but immoral, and if I say anymore, well, I just might regret it. I will, however, discourage people from purchasing from Camsco Music

Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

(Sigh)
As I've said on many occasions before, if any artist feels that he or she is being deprived of royalties that he or she is entitled to from any recordings that CAMSCO sells, all that he or she needs do is contact me, and I'll pay the royalty. So far, no applicants.

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. I'm also a bit bemused by the concept that an artist can somehow "sanction" or "approve" the release of any recording unless there was a failure to live up to a contract by the producer of the recording.

I also fail to see why CD-Rs --the only medium in which this limited-volume material can afford to be produced economically--is "bogus".

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:00 PM

Take the example of one artist whose cleaner turned up at his house one morning with a CD-R she'd found in a well-known high street retailer and asked what he knew about it.
Answer: Nothing.
It had been sneaked out without even telling him, and NOT by the producer but the current rights owner.
Why no publicity? And, indeed, why no mechanicals payment following the release?
This is the sort of charlatan Dick Greenhaus chooses to do business with.
This is merchandise which ought not to be touched with the proverbial boat manouvring object.
Anyone who does should not be surprised at being held in total contempt.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: BB
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

Dick said:
"I also fail to see why CD-Rs --the only medium in which this limited-volume material can afford to be produced economically--is "bogus"."

Pavane had already said:
"I believe it is not too expensive to get proper CD's pressed in the small quantity which a folk release would require (I am sure have seen quotes for 500 or 1000.)"

Most folk labels of the likes of WildGoose, Fellside, etc. initially have 500, or at the most 1000, pressed at a time, and in the case of any Nic Jones recording, selling 500 would, I'm quite sure, be no problem at all. Ralphie, you probably know what the sales of 'In Search of Nic Jones' and 'Unearthed' have been, just to prove the point. I know that the likes of Wildgoose and Fellside don't *just* produce CDs for the love of it, but to make at least some profit. Pity CD can't do it the same way - and they don't have the initial recording costs either!

Barbara

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:35 PM

Oh Mr Greenhaus why oh wy do I hear the words and music of Warren Zevon's immortal song......


I lay my head on the railroad track
And wait for the double-E
The railroad don't run no more
Poor, poor pitiful me
}
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
These young girls won't let me be
Lord have mercy on me
Woe is me

Well I met a girl in West Hollywood
And I ain't namin' names
Well, she really worked me over good
She was just like Jesse James

She really worked me over good
She was a credit to her gender
She put me through some changes, Lord
Sort of like a Waring blender

Poor, poor poor me
Poor, poor pitiful me


I met a girl at the Rainbow Bar
She asks me if I'd beat her
She took me back to the Hyatt House
I don't want to talk about it

Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me
Poor, poor pitiful me


Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 02:37 PM

The issue is not the medium in which CM reissues are produced but whole manner in which it is done.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

"The issue is not the medium in which CM reissues are produced but whole manner in which it is done."


tantamount to downloading and burning from one of many music download sites on the internet, to me it's exactly the same thing. The lazy persons way of obtaining music...and who pays the price? The artist who's receiving absolutely nothing at all. And "Mr" Greenhaus doesn't see problem? HA!!!

Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:05 PM

if the artist in question is entitled to royalties--and that entitlement is determined by contractual agreement--all he has to do is let me know and I'll make sure he gets his royalties from anything CAMSCO sells.

It's fairly obvious that there isn't any sizeable market for old Leader recordings--if there were, I'm sure Mr. Bulmer would have issued them. Unless you believe that he's holding them back, and losing all that income, just to be spiteful..

Leader re-issues are a trivial part of my annual sales. I carry them because a few customers want them, and because I hate to see good music become unavailable.

"It had been sneaked out without even telling him, and NOT by the producer but the current rights owner.
Why no publicity? And, indeed, why no mechanicals payment following the release?"

Well, the current rights owner, by definition, is the one who currently owns the rights. Mechanicals generally refer to automatic payments to copyright holders by folks issuing cover recordings..not applicable here. As to why no publicity, I have no idea. It certainly can't be attributed to motives of greed by CM.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:15 PM

From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:05 PM

ain't rationalization wonderful....?

Charlotte (will purchase directly from Nic and Julia and skip the middle men)

Mollie Music Mail Order

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 04:52 PM

We used to have problems surrounding the early Nic Jones recordings, now we have "isyous"!!!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:04 PM

Charlotte, Dick has tried to do the right thing to the best of his ability. He asks questions, and he gets nothing but snotty (but otherwise meaningless) answers in return. I know there is quite a bit of ill will, and much of what Bulmer is alleged to have done makes no sense whatsoever.

If an outsider asks what it's all about and gets a dismissive, rude or otherwise unhelpful comment, it looks like nothing more than a feud. If there's more to it than that (and I know there is), surely you can provide some support for your side. Lacking that, it sounds like your main point is that Mr Bulmer is a big stinky poopie-head, and that's why you shouldn't buy CDs from Dick, even if Dick has said he'd pay royalties out of his own pocket.

Any way you cut it, if you want the Mollie Music CDs and live in the UK, it probably makes more sense to get them from Mollie Music.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:15 PM

"We used to have problems surrounding the early Nic Jones recordings, now we have "isyous"!!!"

nope...we have BIGGER problems

"if you want the Mollie Music CDs and live in the UK,"

wrong, I don't live in the UK..but I'd still rather pay the extra and deal directly with Nic and Julia.

"Mr Bulmer is a big stinky poopie-head"

your description, not mine.

to quote Diane

"The issue is not the medium in which CM reissues are produced but whole manner in which it is done."

and those who are too readily willing to go along with it.


Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:23 PM

You could just come out and SAY you're incapable of explaining it, you know!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

"You could just come out and SAY you're incapable of explaining it, you know!"

the whole of the sorry Dave Bulmer saga has been re-iterated many, many times and I'm not about to repeat it. The threads are still there if you want to read them

The Dave Bulmer Saga Part 678

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Mollie Music Mail Order

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:25 PM

Hi Barbara (A Few posts ago)
Sadly, I don't know the sales figures of "In Search" and "Unearthed"
What I do know is that the monies provided from the sales of those two releases helped the family greatly.
Why do you think I spent an awful lot of time working on said project. (And am still doing so....)
Considering the high regard that Nic is held in, and the continuing sales of Penguin Eggs et al, not to mention the award that he recieved from the BBC last year, So, Just think how much money has been denied him over the last 25 years by a certain person who will not do the deal....
Can't get my head around that one.
The only good thing about this thread is that it keeps the issue alive.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm in for the long haul on this one.
As for Mr Greenhaus. I understand your position as a business man, but, with due respect, don't deal wirh Bulmer. I know you think that the music should be available.......I agree.....
But it should be done in the right way.
You probably can't understand the feelings of us Brits concerning Nic.
Don't get into bed with Bulmer, Please.
Must go, got more editing to do.
Regards to all Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:37 PM

Just to re-Iterate

Nic Jones Available CDs

Penguin Eggs (Topic)
Game, Set, Match (Topic)
In Search Of (Mollie)
Unearthed (Mollie)

Nic Jones NOT Available recordings

Nic Jones (1st LP)
Ballads and Songs
Noahs Ark Trap
From The Devil To a Stranger

Is that clear?

Ralph (who really should know better, but hey....)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 10:26 PM

Ralphie-(and others)
I can only repeat what I said (though I don't think it's anything unclear)

As I've said on many occasions before, if any artist feels that he or she is being deprived of royalties that he or she is entitled to from any recordings that CAMSCO sells, all that he or she needs do is contact me, and I'll pay the royalty. So far, no applicants.

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. Would someone care to explain this?


Certainly my recommendations are for Penguin Eggs, Unearthed and Game Set and Match (and, somewhat less enthusiastically for In Search Of--I don't think it's musically as good as the others.) But for those who purchase these, and still crave more of Nic Jones' music, I also carry Nic Jones and Ballads and Songs. If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them.

It sounds to me that the objective of Charlotte and Diane and the rest of that fervid crew is to, in some strange way, punish Bulmer. Aside from not accomplishing anything, it doesn't help Nic Jones or any of the other artists involved.

And, just to keep the record straight, my motivation in making these CDs available has nothing to do with being a businessman--if I were, I
wouldn't be selling folk muic CDs.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:49 AM

My reference was not in fact to Nic Jones but to Barry Dransfield who suffered financial loss in the 90s recession when his instrument repair business went under. While Bulmer has, inexplicably, relented in just a few isolated cases and allowed certain artists to re-release their own material, mostly he (and his sidekick Neil Sharpley) have not and have been deliberately obstructive. Why? Who knows but the answer sure lies not in business practice but in the realms of psychology.

This is why Tony Rose re-recorded some of his favourite songs on Bare Bones shortly before his death, just to get them out there. It's why Topic put out Shining Bright, a re-recording by various artists of the songs of Mike & Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus. There's a stack of rare archive material (see the Leader entry on the MusTrad site for a full catalogue) from other traditional artists no longer with us mouldering in some Harrogate shed. Efforts by independent labels to do deals and get it remastered and released have been rebuffed. Most recently, CM even tried to prevent by injunction the release of Topic's Game Set Match, the recording which paid for Nic Jones' much-needed knee operation.

Punish Bulmer? No, I don't give a toss about someone I have not seen for 30 years. I want artists to have a fair deal (those who are still left) and for the world to be able to hear all this wonderful music. In the meantime, Mr Greenhaus must surely see why he ought not to touch Bulmer's tainted, tatty CD-Rs. And the BBC should know better than to advertise his mail order company on their website. What goes around comes around. Eventually.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 02:21 AM

When I look through my collection of vinyl albums, I find that a significant proportion are in the 'Bulmerised' category, including folk album of the year 1970 (Rout of the Blues, Dransfields), Nic's first four albums, Peter Bellamy, Mick Tems, and so many more that I could list. But someone has already done that in another thread.

As noted above, various artists took to re-recording or even bootlegging their own recordings.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:17 AM

Just out of curiosity, are the "Ballads & songs" and "Nic Jones" CDRs vinyl rips or do they sound like they were taken from the masters? Free Reed got some pristine-sounding tracks from "Rout of the blues" and "Lord of all I behold" for their "Up to now" CD, so we can at least hope that the master tapes are still in usable condition

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else. Would someone care to explain this?

I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unBulmerised Apprentice
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM

it doesn't help Nic Jones or any of the other artists involved"

or Ashley Hutchings - The Wildside of Town (Celtic Records)
plus I think there was an Albion Band record on Dambuster.

John Kirkpatrick - Jump at the Sun (Leader)

Dave & Toni Arthur - Hearken to the Witches Rune

Muckram Wakes - Muckram Wakes, Map of Derbyshire

Robin and Barry Dransfield - Rout of the Blues

Mike and Lal Waterson - Bright Phoebus

Derek and Dorothy Elliott

Unto Brigg Fair - Joseph Taylor

I could go on, but I believe I've made my point. You want more?Examine the Leader Discograpy at Rod Stradling's Muscial Traditions website and see what is been hidden away all these years.

Charlotte (Bulmerised...I love that word!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:17 PM

" so we can at least hope that the master tapes are still in usable condition"

we can only hope that the environmental conditions wherein the masters are being kept are optimal.

"I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else"

It isn't benefitting anyone under the current conditions.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: pavane
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:18 PM

Except the income from the CDR's into CM.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 12:23 PM

"Except the income from the CDR's into CM."

exactly!

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,HFA at work
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:22 PM

Quote 1,
'to keep the record straight, my motivation in making these CDs available has nothing to do with being a businessman--if I were, I wouldn't be selling folk music CDs.'

Then don't sell the disputed CDs then - you clearly don't want to make financial gain from others misfortune, do you!

Quote 2,
'I fail to see how NOT making this music available in any way benefits Nic Jones, or anyone else.'

There is an ongoing dispute.
Selling 'those' CDRs NOW - with NO funds going to the Jones or the other affected artists, or their estates,
WILL affect sales in the future, should the situation be resolved in those artists favour, even if only in part.
Who knows, some amicable agreement may result where Bulmer, retailers - AND the artists get SOMETHING at least!
Knowing there IS a dispute - why coin anything in now if you don't really care about making financial gain?

Specifically in Nic's case - Those of us who care for Nic, knowing he cannot re-record, or perform and make a living as he could once, would rather the music was 'on hold' rather than sold NOW - making only YOU and Bulmer money, and Nic not a penny.
It seems callous to make money while you can, on the back of someone elses misfortune.

Quote 3,
'I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.'

A low swipe, this. Pity.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

Quote 3,
'I'm addressing the anti-Bulmer jihad, now.'

Oh, I see, so we're all folk-terrorists now, are we? a low swipe indeed, and typical to identify your opponents with the latest menace to society...in the 50's it would have been the communists wouldn't it?
I was thinking, when I awoke this morning, that perhaps I may have been a wee bit too harsh, yesterday, I can see now I wasn't.

Charlotte (off on a folk haj to Cecil Sharp House)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:39 AM

I think it's deeply unfair to refer to people who are concerned about how Nic Jones and others have been treated by Celtic Music as a 'jihad'.

No-one's announced a fatwah against Mr Bulmer. They just want him to do a deal with those concerned to get the Jones recordings back in the public domain in a way that ensure everyone gains - the Jones, Dave Bulmer himself and Nic Jones' current and future generations of fans. On paper, it doesn't seem that difficult. In the meantime, if the Joneses don't want people to sell or buy the Celtic Music CDrs until a satisfactory solution has been agreed on, it doesn't really hurt anyone in the folk world to respect their wishes, does it? As you say yourself, Dick, you don't exactly shift many copies.

A proper, above-the-radar, bells and whistles reissue, maybe in partnership with a label with a decent promotional budget, would surely make Mr Bulmer more money than his current, slightly under-the-counter approach to marketing does? It would also instantly turn him into a folk hero.

Having said that, in the past, comments have been made about Dave Bulmer on Mudcat that are extremely personal and insulting. Whilst passions may run high, this is a totally daft strategy and helps no-one: anyone with even the most basic understanding of psychology should realise that attempting to back someone into a corner isn't going to make them do what you want them to do - quite the opposite, in fact.

Anyway, let's hope this can be sorted out whilst some of the key people involved are still with us!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Neil, Fish Records UK
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:37 AM

Have been following this thread with interest and decided to chip in.

We've been working with Nic & Julia for almost 10 years now, selling all of the self released albums - it works well as it offers people the chance to buy discs using cards, and it opens up a wider market than the UK.

We've been offered the CD-Rs of the first couple of albums, I declined to carry them. Not because I thought they weren't commercial (far from it) but for the ethical reasons well documented here.

I really don't want to get into arguments with individuals here, but I think the discussion about the demand for ANY release from Nic needs to be addressed.

There is a strong demand for anything from Nic, to back that up I'm happy to discuss figures from my point of view.

We've sold well over 1700 copies of Unearthed and ISONJ (combined), and that's just through Fish and not counting the copies Nic & Julia sell. Both Topic releases continue to sell well too.

There's no reason to suggest that ANY re-issue of the missing 4 albums wouldn't sell at least as well as this....I'd take any suggestion from someone saying they're struggling to sell copies with a huge pinch of salt.

There certainly is a market for the discs, and when they finally do see the light of day in an official format, I think the demand for them will be incredible....in the interim people have a choice to make - either get the first two albums in CD-R form, or do the right thing and wait for an official release (whenever that may be).

Neil
Fish Records

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:21 PM

"whilst some of the key people involved are still with us"

unfortunately it's a bit late for Lal Waterson. God Bless Her.


Neil
Fish Records

Neil thanks so much for the imput I'm glad you finally "chipped in" and have given the Fish Records point of view. I was unfamiliar with your label until one poster mentioned it on this thread.:-)

"We've been offered the CD-Rs of the first couple of albums, I declined to carry them. Not because I thought they weren't commercial (far from it) but for the ETHICAL reasons well documented here."

well put, perfectly clear, succinct.

Now...are there any further questions?

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 04:23 PM

I have this - might Nic Jones want to clean it up and release it?

Nic Jones - Teatro Bonci, Cesena, Forlì, Italy, December 17th 1981, from master.

Disc One, Set One :

1. Seven Gypsies
2. Petronella (instrumental dance tune)
3. The Ruins By The Show
4. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
5. Fiddle Jig : The Lannigan Ball
6. Guitar Jig (instrumental dance tune)
7. Rockin' The Baby
8. Fishing For
9. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
10. Instrumental Reel Tune
11. Farewell To The Gold

Disc Two, Set Two :   

1. The Trees
2. Canadee I O
3. The Little Heathy Hill (instrumental)
4. Billy Don't You Weep For Me
5. Lord Franklin
6. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
7. Instrumental Fiddle Tune
8. Yamato Town
9. Monday Morning

Encores :

10. This Summer I Went Swimming
11. Guitar Jig (instrumental)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:22 PM

There's one thing that Dick Greenhaus keeps repeating and that (unless I missed it) no one arguing against him has addressed: "If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them."

Until those arguing against DG address this offer of his, they won't have convinced me of their case.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

"they won't have convinced me of their case"

I'm not out to convince anyone...it's soley my personal opinion. Neil from Fish Records has addressed the issue perfectly

"If Nic is entitled to royalties on these releases, he has but to let me know, and I'll pay them."

funny...he didn't start making that claim till a good three-quarters of the way into the thread..so please forgive my cynicism.....

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM

Charlotte, you're a bit late to all of this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

The aforementioned Nic Jones titles on the Leader label are available from CAMSCO. If anyone has any reasonably firm evidence that royalties are not being paid (assuming that original contracts provided for such royalties), please let me know.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:50 PM

Gerry - it's been addressed. The Joneses are apparently opposed to Celtic's CDr reissue of the albums and apparently no acceptable terms for payment of royalties in respect of that reissue have been agreed. Dick's offer, although undoubtedly sincere, is not what the Joneses apparently say they want, and in any case in the scheme of things won't make much difference, as he is only one retailer who by his own account doesn't actually sell that many copies. It could also be argued that if the Joneses went along with Dick's offer they'd be giving legitimacy to the reissue by accepting payments in relation to it.

I keep using the word 'apparently' in this as my understanding of the situation is based on what I've read and what I've been told by third parties rather than being first hand.

I think there is a serious discussion to be had with Dick and other retailers about this issue, but I'd hate to see a person who provides an otherwise excellent service vilified over his current stance and would urge the use of restraint and reasoned argument. Obviously, those very close to the situation may not feel the same way, but a big old rumble on Mudcat isn't going to help anyone...

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

Dick Greenhaus is not (unless I have a wholly outdated and distorted view of what what actually goes on in Harrogate) the piggy- bank holder/finance director or whatever you want to call it with responsibility for paying a licence fee to the MCPS as CM ought by law to be doing to cover their clandestine CD production runs.

What he does is run a retail music shop/record stall or possibly sells CDs out of his car boot in the US. It may be a jolly fine gesture to boast a willingness to shell out the missing royalties but this goes nowhere in "legitimising" CM's business practice.

What the artists want is for their work to be made available in an above-board and equitable manner and the way for this to be achieved is for Mr Bulmer to just do the deal and sell back the rights.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

"Charlotte, you're a bit late to all of this.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus - PM
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

The aforementioned Nic Jones titles on the Leader label are available from CAMSCO. If anyone has any reasonably firm evidence that royalties are not being paid (assuming that original contracts provided for such royalties), please let me know"

I'm not convinced at all, because as Diane has quite correctly stated Mr. Greenhaus'"jolly fine gesture (I only call friends by their first names)to boast a willingness to shell out the missing royalties and his apparent concern for, in this case Nic Jones, goes nowhere in "legitimising" CM's business practice. I firmly believe that Nic and the others I listed a few posts back would love to have the rights for their work(s) returned/sold back to them. Can Mr. Greehaus facilitate this? I think not. So until this occurs, as I said, please forgive my cynicism.

Charlotte (the view from ma and Pa's piano stool

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

Hi Bonzo3Legs.
I'm sure that Nic and Julia would love to have copies of this Italian gig.
I did know of it at the time of Unearthed, but, it dropped off the radar in the production stages.
I'm only guessing, but, I don't know of any plans for more retrospective releases,
I think the feeling is that the three that are legally out there will do for the time being.
Time really to deal with the original problem that forced the re releases into existence.
So, If you'd like to forward the "Italian Job" (!) to the Joneses via the address on their website, I'm sure they would be delighted to add it to there collection.
Thank You
Ralph
PS, I will obviously assume that this recording won't appear anywhere else other than at the Jones' residence !!!!

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

"Italian Job"

nice title for the cd Ralphie, should it reach that stage (and we can only hope it will)

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:03 PM

I will certainly do that, pleased and proud to do so. A quick hiss reduction treatment in Adobe Audition loses much of the tape hiss, and an experienced studio technician with better software would do a grand job.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM

Bonzo Old Bean.
Jolly good job. Thanks for being a gent in not bootlegging it yourself!!!!
Maybe in due course, it might see the light of day, but.....However lovely it is as an "Aide Memoire" to how Nic performed (Jesus) nearly 30, yes 30....years ago, Focus must still be concentrated in prizing the original recordings that Bill Leader made.

I would also point all who might be interested in "Lost Recordings" to peruse Rod Stradlings MusTrad site.

Just click on Leader/Trailer....

You will be astonished as to the amount of material that has been lost.

Good News. Tony Rose daughter is on the verge of releasing a retrospective on her dads life and career. It's taken a long time, but, for myself I can't wait to buy a copy.

Memo to self, Must give David Suff at Fledgling records a call.
The care that that company has taken in re-releases/box sets is a marvel to behold.
Yeah, he's probably too busy to be bothered with the entire Leader/Trailer catalogue!!!!

Onwards and Upwards.
Have a nice evening

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:59 PM

"Yeah, he's probably too busy to be bothered with the entire Leader/Trailer catalogue!!!!"

I do believe that if anyone can do anything for and with the Leader/Trailer catalogue it would be Fledgling Records.

Charlotte (the Saturday view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:54 PM

Ralphie said: "Memo to self, Must give David Suff at Fledgling records a call.
The care that that company has taken in re-releases/box sets is a marvel to behold."

This brings up a point that has not been made so far (a.f.a.i.k.) in discussing the immoral CM CDRs: the crap packaging. In these days, a quick bang-out with nil design values and bad typesetting in a bog standard black-tray jewel box is an insult to "classic" recordings. If Nic's albums were properly re-issued by say Topic (or Fledgling) you could be sure that they'd be in a quality digipak or longbox with excellent new notes, historic photos, memorabilia etc. The extra value added to the already desirable music would make them unmissable items, exactly the sort of things which makes people keep buying CDs for their collections rather than lo-fi mp3 downloads.

Anything less than a quality package on a re-issue of a Nic Jones Trailer album is an insult.

By the way, who owns Bandoggs? (Nic, the Coes and Tony Rose). It was released by Transatlantic (not Leader) but with a Leader logo on it. Did that end up in Harrogate too?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:22 PM

I was given to understand from all I've read that the Bandoggs LP is also captive in Harrogate.

Re Ralphie's suggestion of checking up on what the Trailer/Leader Lost Recordings in question comprise this is the link you need.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:27 PM

Yes Bandoggs is/was a Trailer LP. For a while IIRC Transatlantic issued/distributed some of the albums with the catalogue number changed from the usual LERxxxx to LTRAxxxx but I'm sure my copy is an LER issue, but I'm nit sure I can get into the "study" to check as it's clogged with old Vinyl, old Folk magazines, sci fi stuff etc

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:17 AM

For what it's worth, my copy shows the following detail on the spine:

LTRA 504 "Bandoggs" Highway Records.

The reverse of the sleeve shows the following detail:

Recorded and produced by Bill Leader at Leader Sound

Highway Records Ltd P.C. 1982
Marketed and distributed under licence from Trailer Records Ltd

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:00 AM

Yes indeed.

Bandoggs have suffered the same fate.
I really would urge people to check out SurreySingers link above.
It's only a click away, and you will be amazed at the number and diverseness of old recordings secreted away in Harrogate.
I'm sure that David (Fledgling) or Tony Engle (Topic) would love to be involved with the complete archive, if only all the legal shenanigans could be dealt with.
Lets face it, Mr Engle invested an enourmous amount of money in his Voice of the People releases. (Hardly a big seller, but invaluable for a few). I don't know for sure, but I think its unlikely that he's covered his costs.
Topic would be an ideal vehicle for the Leader "Grey" albums.
(For those that don't know, these were a series of source recordings, on the "Leader Tradition" label from the likes of Joseph Taylor, Cecillia Costello, The Sheffield Carol lot, etc. All pacakaged in a grey gatefold LP, with many pages of background, photos, printed music, and the history of the artist.)

Lets just keep fighting the fight, and maybe Mr Bulmer will see sense eventually.

Lets face it, his target market is getting smaller year by year, as people shuffle off this mortal coil.

Maybe he wants to go to his grave saying.....
"I've got them....they're all mine"

Sadly there won't be anybody left to hear him.

Some people are very strange.

Ah Well. Best wishes to all.

Ralphie (Founder of the so-called Jihad!!)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:11 AM

Probably a silly question, but has anyone asked Bulmer what he'd charge for a)the rights to any or all of the recordings, or b)a license to re-release any or all of them?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:16 AM

Oh, While I'm on.
SurreySinger is quite correct.
Although the Bandoggs LP was distributed by Transatlantic, it was recorded by Bill Leader at Leader Sounds in Yorkshire, so, it, along with all the other records joined the chain gang to the Gulag which is Celtic Music, and there it still lies. Forgotten by most, but not all.
I also seem to remember a lovely record called "Fylde Acoustic" A compilation of various artists playing Fylde instruments.
That was also distributed by Transatlantic, and I lent my copy to someone......Big Mistake!!

Happy Sunday

Ralph

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:35 AM

From what I know Mr Bulmer talks to no one, unless his tame accountant Neil Sharpley (Ex Coroner Of Louth, Lincolnshire struck off a year or so ago) is calling the shots.
The very fact that CM tried to slap an injunction on the Topic Release of "Game, Set, Match" a week before its release speaks volumes.
CM just want control. But as I say, as the years pass, more of the artists concerned are dying, sad but true.
Even if it's just for the families sake, surely these recordings should be returned to them.
I assume that you will be stocking the Late Tony Roses memorial retrospective when Tony's daughter finishes it?
How much nicer would it have been to have been able to sell the recordings of Tony in his prime?

"But you can't.......Because I've got them....."(Bulmer)

Dick, as you know only too well, we all do this for love not money.

This whole sorry saga that has been going on for almost 30 years leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth.
But, while there is a breath left in my body, I will see a conclusion to this ridiculos situation.
In the meantime, don't sell the first two NJ CD's.   Please.
I found one in Virgin records a couple of years ago, and having purchased it, snapped it in two in the shop.
Petulant, and childish I know, but it made a point.
Anyway, you must do what you think is right.

Ralph Jordan.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 11:46 AM

Message to Charlotte.
Hi There
Don't be too hard on Mr Greenhaus.
He has been a good friend and supporter of the cause for many years, and has distributed lots of otherwise unavailable UK titles in the US for little or no financial gain.
I, personally think he's wrong re the Bulmer CDR releases of the first 2 Nic albums.
But, he can do as he wishes, and, I would never fall out with him over the subject.
Dick is not the enemy.
Bulmer is..............
Thanks for your interest in the subject.
Do you own a rottweiller by the way ???!!!
Regards
Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:34 PM

GLOSSARY

Rottweiler

A dog from the German village of Rottweil in Baden-Württernberg

Greenhaus

A purveyor of music with just a bit too much stock

Fylde Acoustic

A staple eBay item

Bonzo 3 Legs

= Uncle Boko = Stephen Giles = bootlegger

Charlotte

A pudding made with apples

Bulmer

Crap cider, also made with apples (allegedly)

Mustrad

A site to which it remains impossible to link directly to an individual discography, constructed thus by Rod Stradling to annoy

Sharpley

An international alarm signal

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:53 PM

Hi Folknacious.
Well Said Well Said.
Nothing more to add.
Nic (and many others) deserve more than the the shabby treatment that they are getting at the moment.
It all changes, It all stays the same.
Thanks for the support.
Regards
Ralphie

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

Diane, you need some help? Leader

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Delia
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:06 PM

Here's one I made earlier.

Apple Charlotte

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:07 PM

No thanks.

I keep the Leader/Trailer catalogue in a folder marked "Things To Do" so I don't need to stray onto Mr Stradling's Gates-orientated site more often than necessary.

I wish people would test their sites on ALL browsers and platforms . . . (grumble, grumble).

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:14 PM

I don't know what the PC platform-related problem was (maybe because I have a PC). I hate frames and I tend to look for ways to ignore them.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:29 PM

A PC-related problem is having a PC . . .

On the numerous occasions in the past that I have posted a link to the catalogue, I have explained the business of laboriously scrolling down on the left to find Leader. I assume, of course, that most people have this Gates-generated difficulty of being unable to link directly to the page. MacUsers always seem to (unless they are prepared to arse around with IE).

Sometimes I think of defying Mr Stradling and putting up a user-friendly site. Then I hope debulmerisation will set in before I get round to it. Then I start seeing floating pigs.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM

It's not a PC thing, Diane - it's because he's using frames. I can right click on the link, 'copy link location', and use that for the address. I don't know if you can do that on a Mac (I know that right-clicking doesn't do the same thing).

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:19 PM

It's the old "believe me if I had the funds I'd be tempted to ask Bulmer how much he wants for the catalogue(s)"

Charlotte (yes it's Sunday from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:38 PM

"Re Ralphie's suggestion of checking up on what the Trailer/Leader Lost Recordings in question comprise this is the link you need."

you can look at the discography all you want, it becomes an exercise in frustration, least it has for me.

"Don't be too hard on Mr Greenhaus.
"But, he can do as he wishes"

yes he can.....and so can I.

Charlotte (reaching for a Keleenex)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Delia
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:39 PM

The stuff from 1970 will all be out of copyright in 2020, any 1960's stuff even earlier, the 1980 stuff in 2030, the rest on various dates in the middle. So it then all turns back into a pumkin as far as everyone is concerned.

Pumpkin Soup

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:46 PM

"The stuff from 1970 will all be out of copyright in 2020, any 1960's stuff even earlier, the 1980 stuff in 2030, the rest on various dates in the middle. So it then all turns back into a pumkin as far as everyone is concerned."

out of copyright dates are subject to where in the world you may live...

and the type of dog I may or may not own is definitely off-topic.....

Charlotte (the Sunday view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

Wow...2030 Eh?
Can't wait.
I'll be in my 70's Nic in his 80's.
Lots of his (and mine) friends and families will be dead.
Great.
Surely some quicker solution could be reached?
Ralph
PS. How old would Dave Bulmer be in 2030?

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM

out of copyright dates are subject to where in the world you may live

[Opening a can of worms]:

Under UK law, copyright protection in sound recordings exists for 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which it was made or released. The author of a copyright work is generally the person who creates it. In relation to sound recordings, this is the producer.

(Source: PRS/MCPS)

Question: Are such rights, once created, transferable? One of the bankruptcy acts of early last century would suggest not, though this has not yet been tested on music copyright.

(Source: Richard Bridge of this parish)

Assets (plus associated rights) of th insolvent Leader Sound passed through at least two ownerships before Celtic Music acquired thm.

D. Bulmer (calculating rapidly in head) must be in his late 50s.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:26 PM

"Assets (plus associated rights) of th insolvent Leader Sound passed through at least two ownerships before Celtic Music acquired thm."

Diane, do you, by any chance, have names etc..?


"Question: Are such rights, once created, transferable? One of the bankruptcy acts of early last century would suggest not, though this has not yet been tested on music copyright."

more and more interesting....

Charlotte (the Sunday view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,zavvisavvy
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:03 PM

"I found one in Virgin records a couple of years ago, and having purchased it, snapped it in two in the shop.
Petulant, and childish I know, but it made a point".

If the CD had been left in the rack Virgin would have eventually moved it to the sale bin and not reordered. What you did instead triggered an automatic order to Celtic Music for replacement stock the reverse of what you intended.

Subject: RE: In Search of Nic Jones CD
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 04:28 PM

Hi Mr/s Savvi.
Fair point well made.
But I think the sale of one CD (Profit to CM of about 2 pounds 50) pales into unsignicance with the joy I had in destroying it! (The look on the poor guys face was a wonder!!)
Also, I have never seen any NJ product (other than the legal ones) in a Virgin/Zavvi shop since.
A small victory maybe, but poor people have to take the crumbs that come their way.
Regards Ralphie