info for book of old songs

Subject: Need help with "Old Songs"
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM

I'm trying to put together a book of old songs and I am just now starting
I need help with trying to locate some information on any of the songs I have listed below.
like for instance if they are in the public domain, or if not, when they were first published, and by whom
I would like to try and find out if I have a right to use them.
Any information at all sure would be appreciated.
God Bless...

Here are the songs.

A Girl In A Tavern
Behind The Cold Iron Door
Darn The Man That I Can't Get
The Deepening Snow
Driftwood On The River
The Face On The Barroom Floor
The First Fall Of Snow
Give My Love To Nellie, Jack
Golden Curls In A Cradle Of Rosewood
In The Misty Moonlight
I Wonder Where You Are Tonight
Just A Faded Petal From A Beautiful Bouquet
The Last Letter
Mansion On The Hill
Maryann Regrets
Missing In Action
Mother,Though Her Hands Are All Wrinkled And Old
Please Mommy Please Stay Home With Me
The Precious Jewel
The Same Sweet Girl
The Shoeshine Boy
South Of The Border
There Goes My Everything
They'll Never Take Her Love From Me

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:33 PM

Hi Guest,
Quite a few of the songs on your list are probably not public domain. You'll no doubt get a bunch of good input/information from mudcatters. I know there was a discussion about "Face on the Barroom Floor" which you might be able to find by using the search feature.

You might also find useful information at:
http://www.pdinfo.com/

Melissa

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:39 PM

Have you checked to see which ones are on the Digital Tradition data base here at Mudcat?

There are many songs on your list that are unfamiliar to me. How did you select your list? Are these songs that your family used to sing?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

Driftwood on the river. Popular country song in the '40s
Face on the barroom floor. recorded by Tex Ritter way back.*
Give my love to Nellie, Jack. an old song when I was a boy.*
I wonder where you are tonight. Hank Snow mid 40's this one will be on my new CD.
Faded petal...Hank Snow.
Last letter. there are numerous songs with similar titles.
Mansion on the hill. Hank Williams and Fred Rose
Missing in action. Old country song from the Korean misunderstanding.
Mother. Hank Snow
Please Mommy...recorded by Eddy Arnold.
The precious jewel Roy Acuff 40's
South of the border. Gene Autry. 40's
They will never take her love from me. Hank Williams.

* indicates probable public domain, but many of the rest of them are old enough to have expired copyrights. (Unless Dillan claimed them)

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST, Sandy Mc Lean (lost cookie)
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:38 AM

The First Fall Of Snow (Hank Williams)
They'll Never Take Her Love From Me (Leon Payne)
Just A Faded Petal From A Beautiful Bouquet (Hank Snow)

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,Newfiegirl
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 08:47 PM

Thanks everyone for your help,

Yes Charlie, I'm trying to gather the songs as they were sung by my family and neighbors at social gatherings, from my home town, which were passed on from generations way back in the days.
Can I trust that The Digital Tradition songs that have no copyrights printed by them mean that they are in the Public Domain ?

p.s.Would you be any relation to the Fish Merchant,Earl Noble?

Newfiegirl

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM

In The Misty Moonlight-Jerry Wallace-1960s-probably still in copyright.

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:04 PM

DO NOT!!! Trust the DT

The data base title was set up as a "pun" on "The Oral Tradition" of folk song collection.

MANY items collected may still be under copyright protection. For the United States the terms were extended and then extended again.

IF - you intend to publish and prosper from the proceeds - Educate yourself. The "intellectual property right" discussions on the Mudcat have been thorough.

I have flaunted for years but within 2007 came up with two instances, one with Disney and one with Sinatra. No CD's or directly copied material involved....only nasty people.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Considering "crossing the line" and working for the other side....they pay on a monthly basis. Of course, after the invitation to Camargue, France in late May????

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

Copyright ends 50 years following the last day of the year that the authour died. With a name like Newfiegirl I am assuming that you are in Canada on that big rock of the coast of Cape Breton. :-}
In the USA it is different and I think quite a bit longer.
A lot depends as well what you intend to do with the songs as well. If a copyright is held in another country you may have to abide by its laws if you intend to sell the book there. Even if not international treaties may come into play but they would be almost un-enforcible on a small scale distribution because the royalty that you would be liable for would be small as well. If something is still in copyright and has not been published you would need the authour's permission. If it has been released in publication then you would be required to pay a royalty to the copyright holder. This could be other than the authour of the work.
There is also fair use provisions that may exempt you for certain reasons.
"Newfiegirl, I am not a lawyer so take what I say as only advisory in nature"

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,Newfiegirl
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM

Thanks guys for your advice,
I certainly will be doing a lot more researching.

Newfiegirl.

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,BB
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:43 PM

Newfiegirl,
Copyright infringement is not to be taken lightly. If your book is for your own pleasure and that of your family members, I imagine you can put out limited copies under the heading of "educational purposes." But if you have any intention whatsoever of selling your book, even for charity, or giving your book away as a large production, you would be well advised to seriously research the copyright issue.

It looks like many of the songs on your list were written during the 1940s. That's just not that long ago, to simply ignore a potential copyright claim. In the US, copyright can now last a whole lot longer than 50 years after the death of the writer. Current information is available from this US government website, and from the Library of Congress.

Start with: http://www.copyright.gov/

This thickly-worded paragraph pertains to older works (such as the ones you mention):
Works Originally Created and Published or Registered before January 1, 1978

Under the law in effect before 1978, copyright was secured either on the date a work was published with a copyright notice or on the date of registration if the work was registered in unpublished form. In either case, the copyright endured for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured. During the last (28th) year of the first term, the copyright was eligible for renewal. The Copyright Act of 1976 extended the renewal term from 28 to 47 years for copyrights that were subsisting on January 1, 1978, or for pre-1978 copyrights restored under the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA), making these works eligible for a total term of protection of 75 years. Public Law 105-298, enacted on October 27, 1998, further extended the renewal term of copyrights still subsisting on that date by an additional 20 years, providing for a renewal term of 67 years and a total term of protection of 95 years.

Unfortunately, the onus is on the intended publisher of the book (you) to discover whether or not the songs are still under copyright. Perhaps you'll think about a career in copyright law??

Good luck,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: topical tom
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 09:47 PM

The old 50's country song
Foggy River

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:08 PM

No law is ever simple but it is a bit simpler in Canada than the USA. Here you don't have to register a work to claim copyright as it is automatic. Copyright belongs to the authour of a work from the moment of its creation and if not ceded to others remains with him/her for the duration of their life. It then becomes property of heirs for 50 years following the authour's death. At that time copyright expires and the work becomes public domain. Copyright of all works by that authour would expire at the same time no matter when each was created or when they were first published or who owns title to the copyright if it was ceded. There are exceptions if the authour is unknown that set the duration to 50 years after publication or 75 years after creation. What the authour has to do is be able to prove that a work is his creation and it can be done by registration with the government but can be done other ways as well.
   That being said international law can complicate things. Hank Snow as an example has only been dead for a few years so copyright will remain for a long time. He was also a duel citizen of Canada and the USA. His early works were created in Canada and his later ones in the USA. The day will no doubt come when a few lawyers will get rich fighting over his copyrights.

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:17 PM

I seem to remember threads about being able to search the Harry Fox Agency
to determine copywrite issues on songs.
I'm not sure though as I have never used them.
Search the mudcat database for more info.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST,Sandy (lost cookie)
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 03:31 PM

Thanks JohnB. That site has a link to public domain lists.

http://www.pdinfo.com/list.htm

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 08:54 AM

Thanks guys, you certainly have been a great help.
I've researched in the USA and I found songs In the Public Domain
which it seemed a few were sung by Canadian singer Hank Snow,
one of the few songs I found was "The Galveston Rose"
"Does that mean that he has claimed ownership to that song"?
God Bless...Newfiegirl.

Subject: RE: Old Songs
From: Melissa
Date: 04 Mar 08 - 09:22 AM

It seems like you ought to be able to look at a site that sells Hank Snow recordings, find one with that song, and look at how it's credited?