wrist straps on english concertina

Subject: wrist straps on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 05:58 AM

I have enclosed correspondence on design alterations for english concertina.Iwould be interested to hear different views.
Dear Dick,

I noticed your posting to c.net the 25th (below)and I just can not control myself from some comments

I fully agree that traditional wrist straps are pretty useless. Well - not entirely - , I might say there ARE a couple of situations where they certainly might help a little but leave that aside...

Since I have experimented for many years with various ways holding concertinas (all kinds...) I am selfsatisfied enough having some settled opinions on the matter...:-) Maybe you know already and are fed up with it already but nevertheless you sounded so determined in your reply to c.net that I have to ask you to think twice...:-) There really are so many individual idiosynchrasies and musical complexities that one may always come across something new and since you do take interest in teaching people how to play their mysterious concertinas please do waste some moments checking what I have said on the matter like in

http://www.concertina.net/goran_ergonom.html

because with such very simple modifications of the "strap concept" holding the instrument becomes a completely different matter compared to 150 years of tradition. I think it is worth considering that William Wheatstone - Charles W:s brother - opposed strongly against the usual handle concept and suggested changes in his 1861 patent application. His ideas were forgotten - maybe since he died 1862 and obviously things went on as usual after that....Nevertheless people pop up now and then - like Henrik Müller - who have come to similar conclusions and tried to do something about it all on their own. Usually however not being much understood....

Using my handle concept completely changed all concertina involvment for my part and half of dozen of friends over here have adopted the modications too more or less and agreed that playing precision, enjoyment and comfort got better.But again - the traditional "wrist straps" do not function primarily since they are too floppy (unless set too tight...) It is the combination of broad and steady straps AND a wrist support that makes the difference ! The Anglo/Duet handle concept is a kind of mediocre compromise on the same theme...

Best wishes !

Goran


**************************************************************************************************************************

c.net febr 25th

I have never used them in 32 years.Personally, I see no advantage whatsoever in using them for Irish Music,Scottish Music,or any other kind of Music.
I generally play a 48 key treble,and dont find it too heavy.
what are the advantages?are they going to make you play more quickly,that would surely be down to action and dexterity of the fingers.
Do people find they alleviate strain on their wrists?

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:14 AM

I've only ever seen one English-system concertina with wrist straps, and those were left so loose that they might as well not have been there. I'd be interested to hear if anyone uses them.

Most Anglo-system concertinas use wrist or back of the hand straps, as they often need to 'pull' suddenly.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: selby
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 03:34 AM

I have seen someone playing their english with a neck strap attached to take the weight looked uncomfertable but seemed to work for the player

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:28 AM

I'm glad someone is working on this kind of thing, even if they haven't got it right yet. I'm sure there is potential for a device that would really be a lot better than the traditional straps.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: GUEST,Mary Humphreys
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:23 AM

I have looked at the article, but there is a link to Chris Timpson's website that does not work.
What sort of straps are we talking about that will free the 4th finger from holding the concertina to take an equal part in playing the instrument. ( English system.)
Mary Humphreys

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Lester
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:44 AM

Goran's ramblings can now be found at http://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/rahm/rahm.htm

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 01:24 PM

Hmmmm... looks like a pretty serious modification to me. It would probably be okay to build a 'tina from scratch with such 'handles', but modifying an antique raises other issues other than just player comfort - it would probably adversely affect the instrument's value.

Possibly a good place to try it would be the infamous MIDI concertina as played by Bill Whaley? I'd still need a lot of convincing before I modified my pristine Edeophone... which has the tell-tale Salvation Army extra glittery screws and eyelets!

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 02:25 PM

I have an Aeola without wrist straps and a raised metal end Wheatstone c.1925 with 'factory' wrist straps.

I find the steadying effect of the latter to be invaluable, in
conjunction with the traditional thumb straps and pinkie-brace,
particularly when playing in a standing position.

Adjusted properly, the 'tina will "dangle" from the wrists if you
stand relaxed, even if you remove your thumb and pinkie from the
normal position, but freedom of movement is still unimpeded.

It makes playing on the 'draw' easier, I think.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Guran
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 03:20 PM

RE to selby:
Traditional neckstraps work technically but are not ideal ergonomically since they relocate the carrying effort from the hands to the neck which already is the most vulnerable part of the body concerning muscular stress. Using a strap over one shoulder or better still suspenders over both shoulders is more recommendable

RE to McGrath of Harlow
To get it "right" I am afraid the whole instrument design has to be reformed since the handle should not be eccentric as it usually is. Concerning "device" it is hardly possible massproducing one similar to chin or shoulder supports for violins since concertinas vary so much.

RE to Mary Humphreys
Straps as such do not free the 4th fingers - a combination of straps and some kind of support for the hand may offer a suitable playing position and enough stability to free the fingers.
BTW - liberating the 3rd may be evenly important as the 4th since the fixed position by the 4th locks up movements by the 3rd

RE to Bernard
As said above a whole new construction using suitable handles would be ideal. Contrary to what you believe there is NO need modifying anything on the original or antique instrument since the modified handles may easily be attached by means of the endbolts and with some distance to the endplate with no risk whatsoever for affecting the value of the instrument.
Fingerplates can be easily removed and put back. Wrist straps and neck/shoulderstraps may be screwed on to the basic plate of the handle instead of fixated to the original instrument.

RE to Greg B
Yes, traditional wriststraps certainly may assist and like you say firstly on draw. The problem is that if set tight for good stability they lock the wrist in an extended dysfunctional position and if set a bit loose the hand will flop between push and draw. If the hand stays in a suitable fingering position there will be a gap of 3-5cm between the wrist and the instrument end and this has to be filled up some way to provide satisfactory stability.

RE to Lester
Thanks! There are a couple of other ramblings here:

http://www.concertina.net/goran_holding.html

http://www.concertina.net/goran_supporting.html

http://www.concertina.net/images/goran_supporting.gif

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=225


Goran Rahm

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:41 PM

Using a strap over one shoulder or better still suspenders over both shoulders is more recommendable.
Goran I think you mean braces.
Suspenders are what women wear under their petticoats.
Still your English is much better than my Swedish.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 05:11 PM

What's really needed is to have the American craft intrument makers and gadget inventors take up building concertinas and mess them around and redesign them and all.
..........................................

"suspenders over both shoulders is more recommendable The mind boggles...

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Greg B
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 06:36 PM

Goran---

That's as may be, but I none the less find that having the straps
well-adjusted helps my playing and reduces wrist pain. In the end,
that's good enough for me.

In general I've found that squeezeboxes suffer from being over
analyzed. Many things for which there can be 'valid scientific
arguments' turn out just not to be so when it comes to actually
playing the buggers.

On the other hand, I do find it fruitful to find technical reasons
to that which is first noticed in actual experience.

However I spent a good deal of time when first taking up various
forms of chromatic and diatonic instruments attempting to construct
logical reasons for everything from fingering systems to instrument
geometry.

It was, I'm sorry to say, all in vain.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:30 PM

As Greg says, bubmlebees cannot fly.
Then, there was the centipede who thought about the motion of his feet and got all tangled up.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:17 AM

Bumblebees use sound aerodynamic principles to achieve flight. It is,
rather, poor aeronautical engineers who can't figure out how they
do it.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:21 AM

"suspenders over both shoulders is more recommendable The mind boggles..."

They're not suspenders, that's a bra.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Guran
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

Hi folks - I always enjoy tackling some opposition - not least if miswritings and misinterpretations hopefully may be sorted out... :-)

Captain Birdseye
Yes - you are quite right I do mean *braces* since you are settled on the same side of the Atlantic pond as myself but I also have a dubious smile on my face since Americans usually correct me when I actually have said "braces" for the same thing : " Goran - do you not mean *suspenders* ..??!."
Sometimes I naively write *braces/suspenders* which probably causes even more confusion.
Anyway - what I actually do is loosening the front ends of my braces/suspenders and attach them to some straps connected to the endbolts of the instrument.The elasticity is a great advantage as it admits support at all levels in which the instrument is positioned. (See : http://www.concertina.net/goran_supporting.html )
I am fully aware that the method is not expected being very popular among females except those hoping for some embarrassment if the trousers/pants are dropped in the act...

McGrath of Harlow
Agree - I have tried inspiring quite a few makers and the common excuse NOT doing so is that "no user wants a concertina not looking like old ones".This I believe is only partly true. Musicians usually want the best instrument - like athletes want the best equipment. If musicmaking was evenly competitive and results evenly simple to measure objectively things would change faster...A more likely true excuse for makers not producing inventions is elementary financial calculation.

..."The mind boggles... "
Well...if it still boggles after the change to braces instead of suspenders I suggest you give it a try after all... Practise mostly is more convincing than theory :-)

Greg B
No way do I question that you are pleased with your wriststraps - I merely wish you and everyone else the welfare to experience even greater enjoyment.Repeat: practise is the key - theory/technical reasons may firstly/only inspire to experimentation and the "reasons" may turn out being shortlived.Pondering about them certainly may be in vain.Trying may be so also but for practical matters the only route to progress even if just 1 trial out of 100 is a success. So - try it !

EBarnacle
Do I get you right?... or do you ask for the same advice : Don't think about it - DO it ! ? :-)

Goran

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Guran
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM

There has been some discussion on wrist straps also at concertina net forum lately:
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7012
I have presented a video on You tube to illustrate the combination of a wrist support and wriststrap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEPTosZ44g&NR=1

Some questions pop up:
"the problem with Gorans erection is that it will make the instrument heavier to hold.
- will it effect the abilty to swing ones instrument with abandon,to get the Doppler effect "

RE: The added weight itself is negligable since the net-effect is so great from reduction of the effort holding, carrying and controlling the instrument !
I can testify for my own part that with my own handles I can play a baritonetreble energetically standing for more than an hour and even swing it at wish while similar activities using a common treble I manage only for 5 minutes or so !
The baritone-treble has roughly twice the weight and twice the end area compared to the treble.

A related remark: Many concertina players misjudge the importance of instrument *weight* regarding the so called "heaviness" of playing
As a matter of fact it is the *end area* that primarily determines the effort of playing.
Goran Rahm

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:22 PM

From reading some of the modern makers' websites, it looks like many of them are not slavishly following traditional construction methods and designs (although there are many reasons why those continue to appeal to potential players). Innovations seem to continue to be made in many areas of concertina design, often by people who see a problem and then work out their own answer to it. Only if that answer is blindingly obviously beneficial will that innovation be generally adopted (patents allowing). One of the ways that some modern instruments outshine their predecessors is in their light weight, obviating the need for any extra support.

If most people get along well enough without them, wrist straps for English concertinas would not seem to be an urgent requirement. Those people above who have found their own solutions to a perceived problem have done what they found necessary - but the same answer may not suit the next person.

Ross

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Guran
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 05:20 AM

Reply to RossCampbell - Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:22 PM

"From reading some of the modern makers' websites, it looks like many of them are not slavishly following traditional construction methods and designs (although there are many reasons why those continue to appeal to potential players)."

> Yes and no.Most newish constructions are so firstly by using modern materials or processing methods and some by using accordion reeds.
The design in my view is rather "slavishly" followed and despite some makers themselves might like some renewal they fear negative "market response".Musicians seem more conservative than many other consumers in this respect - maybe since music making itself may contribute with some refreshment...

"Innovations seem to continue to be made... Only if that answer is blindingly obviously beneficial will that innovation be generally adopted (patents allowing)."

> Hm...I don't quite agree.Lots of "generally adopted" novelties are completely non beneficial - not to say absolutely useless or even harmful.There are other factors which determine transitions of habits and market response.Not least influence from 'star performers'

" One of the ways that some modern instruments outshine their predecessors is in their light weight, obviating the need for any extra support."

> I repeat: The significance of *light weight* regarding "heaviness" playing concertinas is commonly misunderstood.Instrument weight as such is of importance firstly for *carrying* the instrument, NOT for *playing* it !(*Playing* demands pumping and manipulation of keys)
You CAN eliminate the influence by weight entirely by resting the instrument on the lap, hanging it in a neckstrap,shoulderstrap or from the ceiling but you can NOT eliminate the influence by end area which is the dominating factor that determines the effort playing any squeezebox , which technically speaking is an air PUMP.

>Some "extra support" is needed (or say useful) for all concertina playing like the a chin support and shoulder support nowadays are almost universally regarded as useful by violin players.

"If most people get along well enough without them, wrist straps for English concertinas would not seem to be an urgent requirement."

> Traditional wriststraps have a limited value but still may be useful.Most players have not systematically tried them and many have obviously prejudiced opinions about them.

" Those people above who have found their own solutions to a perceived problem have done what they found necessary - but the same answer may not suit the next person."

>This is definitely true.History shows however that the "next person" often will change opinion when "what they (= the innovators)found necessary" has become selfevident for the general public.This may take some generation(s) though...:-)

Goran Rahm

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 01:32 PM

I think the adoption of an innovation (in this case an improved wrist-strap) depends on a couple of things:-
a) the number of interested parties who can see the innovation in action
b) the sub-set of those who might see some benefit to themselves from adopting the new idea.

Back when I started playing (mid-'70s), I could name thirty or forty concertina players (Anglos, English, Duets) within twenty or so miles of where I live. We frequently compared instruments and discussed the advantages/disadvantages of the various sytems and playing styles.

Now I'd be hard pushed to name more than five who continue to live and play in this area. I know of a few others where the concertina has been retired to the top of the bookshelf, either family or work impeding the opportunities to play/practise, and no doubt a few just keep the old instrument because "It's a good investment". Opportunities to see and hear other concertina players seem to have seriously reduced over the years.

I am aware of regular concertina gatherings in the Chorley/ Leyland area, but haven't managed to get there yet. If I ever do, I'll mention the wrist-straps.

Ross

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Guran
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:39 PM

Ross Campbell
Your experience is certainly shared by many other "old" players and to a great part by myself when it comes to local company sharing the interest.On the other hand Internet contacts like this manifest the presence of several thousands of concertina enthusiasts - not least younger ones - and those ought to get a fair chance developing their playing by practising 'modern' views on an occupation that has not been much subject to the same kind of analysis and systematic pedagogics as the use of many other musical instruments.The lack of academic anchorage in concertina playing likely is one factor. Such gatherings you mention certainly are important means to compensate.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:34 PM

Agreed. I've probably "spoken" to more people about concertinas on Mudcat and other sites in the past month than I would see in the "real" world in a year!

Ross

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:46 AM

Where can I but thumb straps for an English concertina (UK)?

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 09:52 AM

c wheatstone,and co.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Apr 08 - 01:35 PM

Thanks, Captain Birdseye,
They seem a bit dear at £35 but needs must.

Subject: RE: wrist straps on english concertina
From: GUEST,Guran
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:13 PM

To Jim McLean and others
Since thumb straps come up I can't control myself from initiating a new thread on that item - so I comment in
" Thumb straps on english concertina"
Göran Rahm