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Subject: StrtsO'Lon=Paclbel Canon?? From: Art Thieme Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM It dawned on me a while ago that Streets Of London (Ralph McTell) is made with the chords to, and pretty much the melody of, Pachelbel's Canon! Am I correct? Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Ken Brock Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM I don't know, but I think that Paul Anka's "I Don't Like to Sleep Alone" is. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Acorn4 Date: 05 Mar 08 - 05:53 PM The sequence certainly has a lot of similarities - Remember "Groovy Kind of Love" by Wayne Fontana - the tune is exactly the same as a sonatina by the composer Clementi. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:47 PM I just listened to the song (Streets of London) and see no similarities with the much over played Pachabel's Canon at all Charlotte (played both on the piano too) |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 08 - 06:57 PM I've been told, and I believe from hearing them both, that the chord sequence is the same, or at least SoL is derivative. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Jeri Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:15 PM Lest anyone think 'derivative' is a negative term, I believe P's Cannon might have been the inspiration for the tune. It came first, and the chords sound similar to me. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM The chord progression is the same, as is the pulse--the melody mostly the same, but ends with a "folk" tag, rather than Pachelbel's- The chord progression has been really popular, and shows up a lot of places--"One Tin Soldier" for instance--and really, when you get down to it, is basis of the "Mr. Bojangles" progression that used for so many songs-- If you can handle it emotionally, Art, PM me your email address and I'll bounce back an interesting metal guitar version of the maestro's grand work. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:37 PM And, obsessive/compulsive that I am, before posting, I grabbed the three relevant pieces and listened to them side by side(the Paul Anka thing is similar for about one measure in the bass part, and goes, as he says, "My Way"-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:42 PM Pretty sure there was a previous lengthy thread on just the same subject, and just how many songs are based on the same chord progression. (And I've previously mentioned the Clemnenti sonatina) There was also a hilarious video clip on Youtube of this 'cellist who absolutely HATES Pachelbel's Canon because the 'cello only gets to play the same 8 notes all the way through. (Go on, Google it, past my bedtime to do the searches!) |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Desert Dancer Date: 05 Mar 08 - 07:43 PM It is a common chord progression. Whether there's any actual relation is an interesting question. See this examination of the topic. ;-) ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 05 Mar 08 - 08:39 PM Thanks for posting that link,Becky, it's very,very,funny-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Sorcha Date: 05 Mar 08 - 08:53 PM Well, there ARE only so many notes and so many progressions and so many combinations.....some things are just bound to be similar at least. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: nager Date: 05 Mar 08 - 08:54 PM Agreed: Hilarious - and brilliantly informative! |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Mar 08 - 02:04 AM Art - I thought the same thing years ago. You can sing both together and they sound pretty good... Stock, Aitken and Waterman once confessed that the Kylie Minogue hit 'I should be so lucky' was based on Pachabel's canon. That one isn't so easy to see though. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Acorn4 Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:29 AM Will Mr Pachelbel be rising from the grave to claim his PRS fee? |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Mr Happy Date: 06 Mar 08 - 06:28 AM Don't think twice its the streets of London? |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:07 AM "Will Mr Pachelbel be rising from the grave to claim his PRS fee?" Not unless: a) he invested a few guilders during his lifetime to make sure that his £100 subscription had been paid b) he can persuade people that his date of death (about 1706 from memory) is less than 70 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,nateba Date: 06 Mar 08 - 08:24 AM Dog years |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Dave Hanson Date: 06 Mar 08 - 09:20 AM Does anyone really care if it is or isn't Pachibollocks canon or howitzer or whatever, The Streets of London stands up on it's own mertits, great song. eric |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Ken Brock Date: 06 Mar 08 - 09:49 AM I think the chord progression is also the one in the harpsichord break by George Martin in "In My Life" |
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Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Mar 08 - 10:53 AM Eric the Red-Actually,yes--I care very much what "Streets of London" is and isn't--as a musician and composer, I spend most of my time thinking about the component parts of all kinds of music(which is probably why I never get anything else done)-- They even teach you to do it in music school--which, for good or ill, is why so much music sounds the way it does-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 06 Mar 08 - 12:29 PM Thanks, Becky, that's the clip I was thinking of. Try Ivan Drever's "Long December Night" then: the intro is stright from Mr P himself! |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 06 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM Of course, Ralph pinched the tune from Al Stewart - or so some people say! |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM Becky.....Thanks for the YouTube clip......I laughed myself silly and when Karen came home this AM we both laughed all through it again. His other stuff is pretty cute as well, especially the "Friends" thing. Thanks from both of us. Spaw and Karenspaw |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Acorn4 Date: 06 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM Just to throw a cat among the pigeons a bit, does a canon have a chord sequence? Pachelbel was a mate of J.S.Bach's dad, and a canon is actually written contrapuntally. ie: horizontal melody lines rather than vertical chords - most of the contemporary composers (except the French ones like RAMEAU who did tend to think chordally) wrote in this way and the chords were only created incidentally when the repeated overlapping melody line created a harmony -a canon is like a bit more complicated version of a round, like we used to sing Frere Jacques or London's Burning at school. Can Ralph therefore be acquitted on a technicality? |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM SoL also has the same chord progression as theIrish song "Cavan Girl" Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Art Thieme Date: 06 Mar 08 - 02:55 PM What the hell has Rabbbi Sol got to do with this! That's terrible thread creep, and you should be ashamed--- and ostracised too. Art |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Vulgar Boatman Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM As far as I know, Ralph McTell and Al Stewart devised the tune together, or at least both agreed to use it, and wrote different words to it. Al recorded 'Samuel Oh How You've Changed' before 'Streets' was recorded, though not long before. I played support for Al sometime about 1969, but I can't remember if Ralph's version was out then. As for Pachelbel, look in a dictionary of musical themes and see how many classical themes match each other - there's yards of them. KYBTTS |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Ross Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:22 PM Lots of other songs based on it too Here's two So Sally Can Wait/Don't Look Back in Anger - Oasis All together Now - The Farm |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM Acorn4-as folk musicians know full well, even though the melody is a line of single notes, those notes pretty clearly define the vertical harmonies. Pachelbel's basso continuo dictates the chords pretty clearly, and, though they often are stated horizontally chords are still chords-- As to the other, when you write music in the folk idiom, the ideas that you use have been used for the last 400 years, so it's pretty hard to find anything "new", and if you did, it wouldn't be "folk". |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM "as folk musicians know full well, even though the melody is a line of single notes, those notes pretty clearly define the vertical harmonies." Ohhh I would think other genre musicians are aware of this too. " P's Cannon" he owned a cannon too? *LOL* Charlotte (the comic view from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Mar 08 - 07:29 PM Same chords don't mean too much in themselves You can play Kevin Barry and The Sash with the same chords as each other. They make a nice medley, if you've the nerve.. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Mar 08 - 09:31 PM Just shoot me. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Mar 08 - 12:34 AM Becky, thanks for the link. Spaw, thanks for pointing it out to me. Rog and I just had blast watching that guy. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Dave Hanson Date: 07 Mar 08 - 02:37 AM To M.Ted, why does it matter, Woody Guthrie, Ewan MacColl and the like never had problems borrowing old melodies for new songs. What a totaly pointless thread this is. eric |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,fogie Date: 07 Mar 08 - 04:06 AM Simon Richie wrote a tune called the Valiant which we used to run Pach Canon on from - a great tune with a descending bass very similar |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Nick Date: 07 Mar 08 - 04:55 AM >>I think the chord progression is also the one in the harpsichord break by George Martin in "In My Life" I don't In My Life - C G Am C7 F Fm C Streets of - C G Am Em F C D7 G |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,edthefolkie Date: 07 Mar 08 - 05:31 AM Both Streets of London and Pachelbel's Canon are based on a traditional tune called Boulevards of Belper, collected by either John Tams or Roger Watson. See first Muckram Wakes album me duck. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 07 Mar 08 - 06:53 AM Nick - the correct chord progression for Streets is: C G Am Em F C FMa7 G Ralph himself said so. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Vulgar Boatman Date: 07 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM Ed, you're a bad bugger! And that's a compliment. Is there still a club in Belper? |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:09 PM I listened to the tune for Streets of London in the Digitrad, and I don't think it has the same chord progression as Pachelbel's Canon. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:41 AM You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer Eric the Red--this isn't a criticism of anyone, it is a useful piece of knowledge--if your trying to play any of the above mentioned tunes, it helps quite a bit to know the common root--and, if you were working up your own rendition of "Streets of London", and wanted an instrumental break, it helps to know where you can find a bunch of melodies that will fit-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM Think of the passamezzo moderno - G C G D G C G D G -which fits "Boil them cabbage down" for one - it has spawned one way or another hundreds of tunes, and I'd say half of them were deliberately crafted to fit it. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: BK Lick Date: 08 Mar 08 - 02:11 AM That canon's pretty darn ubiquitous, for sure. Check out Alicia Keys's "No One" which won Best Female R&B Vocal Performance and Best R&B Song at the 2008 Grammy Awards. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 08 Mar 08 - 02:53 AM This is all about some peoples belief that chord progressions are melodies. Down through the years, I've had lots of people strum chord progressions to me and are surprised that I can't "name that tune". They of course can hear the tune inside their head but to the outside listener it's just a series of strummed chords. |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Dave Hanson Date: 08 Mar 08 - 02:56 AM Perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer M. Ted but not pretentious either. eric |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Mr Red Date: 08 Mar 08 - 03:04 AM Mole Catcher! Over-played? never never never. Unless you were using a post ironic pun. A canon, is, by definition, overplayed. n'cest pas? |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM Don't sell yourself short, Mr. Red-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM "Both Streets of London and Pachelbel's Canon are based on a traditional tune called Boulevards of Belper, collected by either John Tams or Roger Watson" John Tams and Roger Watson are older than Pachabel?? Good god! they do hold their ages well *LOL* Charlotte (it was on a Monday morning that the gasman came to call) |
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Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM So this bloke Pachelbel is going round singing a song about his photocopier, and he's nicked Ralph's song. I call it despicable - pinching a traditional folksong like Ralph's. |
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