Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush

Subject: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 06:54 PM

From Ramblinghouse: "Frankie Gavin will play in the White House for George W and friends on St Patrick's Day. The former De Danann fiddle player will be joined by singer Michelle Lally, Eric Cunningham on bodhrán, and guitarist Joe Fallon."

FUCK HIM AND THE HORSE HE RODE IN ON! Gavin has just lost what respect I had for him as a musician. Fuck you, Frank. With a two-by-four.

Disgustedly,
Michael

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:51 PM

I won't go quite that far, but I am dissapointed. Didn't know he'd left DeDannan either.....

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:55 PM

Of course it might depend what they play and sing...

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 07:59 PM

Aww, Michael, come on now. Tell us what you really feel about it....,

Seriously though, it is not the man but the office. Hwo many folkies will get to say, before they die, that they played a gig at the White House?

(Not that I don't deeply sympthize with your senitments).


A

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 01:24 AM

The office has become irreparably tainted by the man. (not the first man, but certainly the worst.) Any musician who takes that gig is by association stained with blood.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:25 AM

How many folkies will get to say, before they die, that they played a gig at the White House?

The Glenrock Carolers turned down an invitation to the White House one Christmas and they are American and about two hours drive away.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:03 AM

Let's keep a sense of perspective:
Click here.

Regards

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Ernest
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:21 AM

Bravo, Martin!

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,Terp
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:39 PM

Say it ain' so, Frankie!

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:11 PM

Do we have Frankie's set list for the occasion?

Including "The Little Pig's Lament for the Empty Trough", maybe?

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Gulliver
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 10:51 PM

Michaelr, there's no need for that kind of language here. If you can't express yourself in acceptable English then go somewhere else.

And check your facts. According to the Irish Independent there were representatives of both sides of the still tense political set-up in the North of Ireland, present, as described here :

US president George Bush will give over half his day to a small, neutral country on the edge of Europe. He will accept a crystal bowl of herbs from the head of this country and meet with other leaders from both sides of its borders.

After that, the entourage heads off to Capitol Hill, where a lunch will be hosted by the speaker of the house of representatives, Nancy Pelosi.

Mr Bush and Speaker Pelosi don't get along, so the chemistry between them will be captivating.

But the presence of Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, the North's deputy first minister Martin McGuinness and junior minister Jeffrey Donaldson, means the pair will keep up appearances and smile as they listen to the fiddler Frankie Gavin entertaining the gathering.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:00 PM

I don't give a shit who was present. To my moral compass, it's indefensible for Gavin to entertain at the White House. I wouldn't have played for Clinton, and certainly not for the current Resident (not that they'd ask me).

My language is an expression of the depth of my anger, Gulliver. If you can't stomach straight talk, maybe you should be elsewhere. The Mudcat is a bastion of free speech -- I posted the same at thesession.org, and it was quickly deleted. No such censorship here.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Gulliver
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:43 PM

Ah, I see, a troll. Well, I'm out of here...

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM

Not a troll, Gulliver, just very angry folk.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:49 AM

Calling me names does not invalidate, or even address, my point.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:54 AM

Michaelr

Can I take it you would condemn Paul Robeson in the same vitriolic terms, then?

Regards

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps you should ask Frankie rather than condemming first. When Martin Carthy received his MBE (I believe it was that, or OBE? feel free to correct me) he said he wrestled with the decision. Should he take it as an honor purely, should he say hell no and not take praise from the monarchy? I believe in the end what he said was, he was accepting it for all the people before him-the Sam Larner's, and Fred Jordan's, etc. I agree with the above post that he might have just done it to say he played for a President, and if you do that michaelr, you might find that you need to condemn an inordinate number of performers, folk and non folk alike who have played for a President, or a Prime Minister, or what have you. I'm sure Frankie had his own reasons for doing it, so you have no right to condemn him unless you know that reason.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 11:21 AM

Thanks for the Robeson text. On seeing it at first, I initially expected something quite different (i.e., PR expressing disillusionment at learning the darker truths of Stalin's rule). I think it was Orwell who, in the 1930s, was scornful of those who felt compelled to support everything said or done in the USSR simply because they agreed with some of the work of Lenin, Stalin et al. In addition to the musical/cultural emphasis of Robeson's words, there's certainly significance in what he writes about "empty promises" made to black people in USA, and the typical attitude of cultural/racial superiority he mentions. Before Khruschev's denunciation of Stalin, how much was generally known of the truth about the Stalinist regime? Or was PR perhaps thinking that, in the long, long run, a Soviet approach was better "for the greatest happiness of the greatest number" than the Free Market Economics of the "West"? I don't know; but I've always regarded Paul Robeson as a truly great person, and certainly would not condemn him for the terms of his praises here.

With regard to modern-day performers refusing to perform for certain people, well, it all depends on what you consider of primary importance. Bush is easy amused; Krusty the Klown seems a more appropriate invitation.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:35 PM

"or even address, my point."

what infernal drivel.

There I addressed your point

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 01:42 PM

Oh...and will you be breaking all your De Dannan CD's/ records in protest? (if you own any)

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:22 PM

Well, I happen to have misplaced Gavin's phone number, so please ask him for me. And it's not about playing for "a" president but this one.

As concerns Paul Robeson, ABCD makes a good point when he says that Stalin's atrocities may not have been widely known in the US at the time PR was eulogizing him.

I think I'll keep my De Dannan vinyl records, but I certainly won't be buying any of Gavin's future products.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:40 PM

To my moral compass, it's indefensible for Gavin to entertain at the White House. I wouldn't have played for Clinton, and certainly not for the current Resident (not that they'd ask me).

That's having it both ways-he shouldn't have played at the WHITE HOUSE, and not for Bush. So which is it-no one should ever play at the white house, or just this particular one? Is this another music and politics thread, or just a condemnation of a man you don't know? My point was not that you actually could call the man, but that it is unfair of you to vehemently condemn the man without knowing his own reasons for playing there, and then, copping out by holding onto your De Dannan records while telling him to fuck off.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:52 PM

I'd be happy to perform for George Bush.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:14 PM

"you to vehemently condemn the man without knowing his own reasons for playing there, and then, copping out by holding onto your De Dannan records while telling him to fuck off."

exactly! and would you say FUCK HIM/YOU AND THE HORSE HE/YOU RODE IN ON! to Frankie Gavin's face...again, I think not. I wonder how you would have reacted to hearing that the Canadian band The Guess Who played at the White House for Richard Nixon back in the early seventies, I think it was...they were, however asked not to play American Woman.

I'd love to hear Frankie Gavin's side of the story, maybe it's similar to Martin Carthy's situation, you just never know.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM

I would probably play for any President who asked. It is the office that I honor and that is more important to me them the person in the office. I guess I'm one of the few Mudcatters who likes George Bush - and so I wouldn't have any problem playing for him. I sent him a CD last year.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:49 PM

leave that horse alone.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,Save the Mole
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:01 PM

Frankie Gavin is, in this holy week, playing the part of Judas in many people's eyes. He'll most likely get his thirty pieces of silver for the gig.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:05 PM

"He'll most likely get his thirty pieces of silver for the gig."

well that's not the way I see it, I fully support Frankie Gavin appearing at The White House, like it or lump it.....and I don't need saving by anyone, thank you

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:07 PM

Listen, for all we know Frankie might support some of Bush's policies. I doubt it, but look at this forum. Not everyone on here is a liberal. Just because he's a musician doesn't mean he's a liberal. Maybe he doesn't think about politics and what some guy on a folk forum thinks about his performing at the White HOuse.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive)
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:11 PM

'Just because he's a musician doesn't mean he's a liberal. Maybe he doesn't think about politics and what some guy on a folk forum thinks about his performing at the White House.'

well any credibility this 'arguement' may or may not have had went out of the window with michaelr's initial posting, so juvenile.

re De Dannan...are they still together?

Charlotte (enquiring minds and all that)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:20 PM

"...would you say FUCK HIM/YOU AND THE HORSE HE/YOU RODE IN ON! to Frankie Gavin's face?"

I would, given the opportunity.

"I wonder how you would have reacted to hearing that the Canadian band The Guess Who played at the White House for Richard Nixon"

Probably similarly.

"re De Dannan...are they still together?"

Nope. Their last recording was "Welcome to the Hotel Connemara" (2000).

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: meself
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 11:42 AM

If professional musicians stopped performing for and accepting money from criminals and scoundrels, there were be no such thing as a professional musician.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

Come to think of it, would there be such a thing as Jazz?!!

Regards

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: meself
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

Not as we know it. People like Louis Armstrong were the type of commodity every gangster wanted in his club. You either played for the bad guys or quit - like my friends who dissolved their band when they realized they'd become the favourite party band of a certain motorcycle gang ...

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:38 PM

I'd imagine he might say he's playing for the visitors from Ireland rather than for the host. If they have to put up with sitting in the same room as Bush, why shouldn't Frankie put up with playing music in the same room to ease their suffering?

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:54 PM

Some of them don't hear traditional music much, anyway, methinks!

Regards

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:00 AM

I would consider it a great honor to play traditional music at the White House, whether it's occupied by a liberal or conservative.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

well being Canadian, I wouldn't turn down (if offered) the chance to play before the Prime Minister..regardless of his or her politics. POlitics simply doesn't enter into the equation as to where and when I do gigs.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:55 PM

And that makes you part of the problem.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 01:00 PM

"And that makes you part of the problem."

from yours and other people's point of view, yes.. to many other's I don't think so..and I'm not going to apologize for it

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Ernest
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 06:11 PM

I wonder how you choose your audiences, michael....

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Nerd
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 10:23 PM

This is kind of a non-issue. Most Irish musicians have played in front of people whose politics and policies they disagree with. Playing at the White House for a government function need not imply acceptance of the administration's policies. There are many reasons why people play such gigs, including:

(1) For the other guests
(2) For the honor of being asked to the White House
(3) For the money
(4) To put it on their resume or in their press kit
(5) to get an insider's view of the White House that few people ever get etc., etc....

Rail as you will, Michaelr, you won't convince too many people to condemn him, even those of us who might agree with you on many political questions.

One more thing:

You say: "Gavin has just lost what respect I had for him as a musician."

Why as a musician? Surely his skills as a musician haven't changed. It's really as a political thinker that you can't respect him. Well, it seems pretty likely you never really respected him as a political thinker, because you never knew f-all about his politics.

It seems to me that in losing your respect, he hasn't lost much...

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,Moleskintrousers
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:29 AM

What happened to Tim Edey as guitarist? Was he starting to upstage Frankie?

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:47 PM

I was expressing my feelings when I heard the news. It's sort of like finding your favorite science teacher exposed as a child molester. I suppose I should have said "Gavin has lost what respect I had for him as a person".

It's not a goal of mine to get lots of people to condemn Gavin; in fact I'm pretty much over this thread. It does, however, amaze me that folks can be so blithely able to separate their musical endeavors from the world's ugly realities.

There's an old German adage: "Mitgegangen, mitgefangen, mitgehangen" - meaning something like "you associate with `em, you get caught with `em, you get hung with `em". In other words, if you associate with murderous scum, you're tainted. Simple as that.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: Gulliver
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:53 PM

That's not an old "adage"--it's an expression from Karl May, and doesn't apply here anyway.
All I can say about this discussion is: "Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience".

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:16 PM

It does, however, amaze me that folks can be so blithely able to separate their musical endeavors from the world's ugly realities.


What fascinates me is, in a sense, the reverse. Much as I love music, in so many forms, I don't REALLY expect it to change the world - nor value it less for that.

Regards
p.s. That said, Michaelr - beir bua (Good luck).

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:04 AM

Thank you, Martin.

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:21 PM

'All I can say about this discussion is: "Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience".'

or if ignorance is bliss, some folk must be positively orgasmic.

Charlotte (the view from Ma and Pa's piano stool)

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:26 PM

Anyone else care to take a gratuitous parting shot?

Subject: RE: Frankie Gavin plays for George Bush
From: irishenglish
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 03:58 PM

Michaelr, I have said my piece, but I will just say that what a lot of us had a problem with was your guns a blazing approach with your initial post, and I'm not even talking about the cursing! Like others, my initial thought was gulp, oh Frankie, how could you do that. You wrote- "It does, however, amaze me that folks can be so blithely able to separate their musical endeavors from the world's ugly realities." Well a number of us gave possible reasons for why Frankie Gavin might play for Bush, all of them perfectly plausible. Not being able to separate the music from the world's ugly realities is your own interpretation. Even if this administration was wonderful, as Johnny Cash said, "there's things that will never be right I know", meaning as President of the US, or PM of Britain, etc, someone's always going to have a beef about something. Which also means, like my Martin Carthy example, you yourself as an artist make the decison about what you should do in the end. Simple as that. By the way, let's use your own example-you say you wouldn't have played for this Bush and Clinton, but would you have possibly played if invited? Using past President's, who would you have played for? Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon? Everyone had a beef with each of them about something, be it domestic, foreign, education, environment, etc. Not so easy to choose when there's always something you have against them, so is it play or don't play for any of them? Your blood on the hands doesn't have to apply only to foreign policy btw.