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Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)

In Mudcat MIDIs:
Shiny-O or Shiney-O


Joy Bennett 18 Mar 08 - 10:15 AM
Peace 18 Mar 08 - 10:22 AM
Joy Bennett 18 Mar 08 - 10:27 AM
Peace 18 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,GUEST Jeff 18 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM
Peace 18 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Mar 08 - 01:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Mar 08 - 01:46 PM
Joe Offer 11 Feb 11 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,CB 11 Feb 11 - 11:15 PM
shipcmo 15 Feb 11 - 06:24 AM
Gibb Sahib 15 Feb 11 - 07:37 AM
Gibb Sahib 15 Feb 11 - 05:54 PM
Joe Offer 15 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM
Gibb Sahib 15 Feb 11 - 10:43 PM
Gibb Sahib 16 Feb 11 - 12:56 AM
Gibb Sahib 22 Feb 11 - 10:32 AM
Lighter 22 Feb 11 - 12:34 PM
Barb'ry 22 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM
Gibb Sahib 22 Feb 11 - 10:32 PM
Lighter 23 Feb 11 - 10:10 AM
Barb'ry 23 Feb 11 - 12:17 PM
Lighter 23 Feb 11 - 12:36 PM
Barb'ry 23 Feb 11 - 01:47 PM
Gibb Sahib 25 Feb 11 - 04:20 AM
John Minear 25 Feb 11 - 08:38 AM
Lighter 25 Feb 11 - 12:53 PM
maranjo 29 Jun 11 - 12:20 PM
GUEST,999 29 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM
Gibb Sahib 08 Jan 13 - 05:34 AM
John Minear 08 Jan 13 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Lighter 08 Jan 13 - 08:28 AM
GUEST,Lighter 08 Jan 13 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Lighter 08 Jan 13 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM
Gibb Sahib 08 Jan 13 - 08:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jan 13 - 09:22 PM
GUEST,Lighter 08 Jan 13 - 09:33 PM
Rumncoke 08 Jan 13 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,Lighter 09 Jan 13 - 07:11 AM
John Minear 09 Jan 13 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Squeezer 14 Jan 13 - 05:31 AM
Gibb Sahib 14 Jan 13 - 04:42 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:15 AM

Looking for additional/other words for Shiny-O

this is what I have

Captain, captain, you are a dandy
    Way, shiny-o
Captain, captain,you love your brandy
    Way, shiny-o

Won't you ferry me over to Dover
Won't you ferry me over to Dover

Queenstown to Dover is a hundred miles or over X2

Captain, captain, how deep is the water
It measures one inch six feet and a quarter

Captain, captain, I love your daughter X2

Shiny-o she's the captain's daughter
for her I'd sail across this water

Hens and chickens are flying over
When she pitches, she pitches into Dover


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:22 AM

JSTOR: Some Nineteenth Century Shanties


Google that. It is JSTOR but I have no access. Song is in there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Joy Bennett
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:27 AM

Thanks, I have no access as well -- will try the library sometime... don't know when...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

Joy, there are a few folks who DO have that access. Try maybe a message to Rapaire. Don't know if he does, but he may know someone who does. (He's a good guy. Librarian.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: GUEST,GUEST Jeff
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:27 AM

The Bristol Shantymen's version :-

1. Captain captain you love your brandy (way-ay-ay-ay shiny-o)
    captain captain I love your daughter (way-ay-ay-ay shiny-o)

2. Ferryman ferrymanwon't you ferry me over
    won't you ferry me from Queenstown round to Dover.

3. From queenstown to Dover's a hundred miles or over [ x 2 ]

4. Captain captain how deep is the water ?
    It stands at one inch, six feet and a quarter.

5. The hen and the chickens were all flying over
    and when she pitches she pitches into Dover.

6. Captain captain what is the matter ?
    I lose my wife and my pretty little daughter.

7. Rivers rivers rivers a-rolling
    rivers a-rolling and I can't get over.

8   [ Repeat v.1 ]

The story we have is that a passenger on a ship going from the US to France in the early 20th cent heard this pumping shanty sung by black crewmen. He was liked it and jotted it down. This was the only time the shanty was recorded.

I have always assumed that the men sang "shiny-o" as a reference to the sweat on their bodies.

"The hen and the chickens" are probably stormy petrels - birds which are similar to the albatross but light brown in colour. Sailors associated them with high winds and called them "Mother Carey's chickens".


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Subject: ADD Version: Shiny-O
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:18 PM

SHINY O!

Captain, Captain, you love your brandy,
A-a-a-a-a-ay, shiny O!
Captain, Captain, I love your daughter,
A-a-a-a-a-ay, Shiny O!

O ferryman, ferryman, won't you ferry me over?
Won't you ferry me from Queenstown across over to Dover?

O from Queenstown to Dover's a hundred miles or over;
From Queenstown to Dover's a hundred miles or over!

Captain, Captain, how deep is the water?
She measures one inch, six feet and a quarter.

The Hen and the Chickens were all flying over,
And when she pitches, she pitches into Dover.

O Captain, Captain, what is the matter?
I lose my wife and my pretty little daughter.

O rivers, rivers, rivers are rolling;
Rivers are rolling and I can't get over!

"My best "find," apparently not known. The melody might almost justify symphonic treatment." Note by author.

No. 4, with musical score.
"Some Nineteenth Century Shanties," James Taft Hatfield, pp. 108-113, JAFL, vol. 59, No. 232, Apr.-June 1946
(This is the article referenced in JSTOR)
Collected in 1886 by the author.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Peace
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:20 PM

Good one, Q.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:21 PM

There is a rare-ish recording with almost identical words by teh Keelers.

I play a variant of that, using guitar. Upsets shanty purists.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:46 PM

From the article by Hatfield:
"In the year 1886 I crossed the Atlantic on the full-rigged bark Ahkera (548 tons) from Pensacola to Nice. No stops were made, and the passage took exactly eighty-four days.
"The working crew consisted of eight strapping jamaica Negroes. As to their shanties, they followed, in general, the good old American and British traditions.
"The vessel (which had stood on dry land for two previous years, and had been stripped of all its copper sheathing) leaked like a basket, and there were almost continuous sessions at the pump; prevailing head-winds called for very frequent tacking; hauling the yards (as well as pumping) was always done to the rhythm of these songs. A few of the men were leaders in solo-parts; such a one would be exhorted by his mates to "sing up a scrap!""

Some previous notes on this article in thread 8686: Blow the Man Down


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Subject: ADD Version: Shiny-O
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:51 PM

This is from an e-mail I received from a Mudcatter...

    As I work my way thru my chantey books, I come upon "new" ones.
    The following is from an account of an 1886 Atlantic crossing by James Taft Hatfield:

    SHINY-O!

    Solo
    Cap-tain, Cap-tain, you love your bran-dy,
    Cho
    A-a-a-a-a-ay, shi-ny O!
    Solo
    Cap-tain, Cap-tain, I love your daugh-ter,
    Cho
    A-a-a-ay, Shi-ny O!

    O ferryman, ferryman, won't you ferry me over?
    Won't you ferry me from Queenstoen across to Dover?

    O from Queenstown to Dover's a hundred miles or over;
    From Queenstown to Dover's a hundred miles or over!

    Captain, Captain, how deep is the water?
    She measures one inch, six feet and a quarter.

    The Hen and the Chickens were all flying over,
    And when she pitches, she pitches into Dover.

    O Captain, Captain, what is the matter?
    I lose my wife and my pretty little daughter.

    O rivers, rivers, rivers are rolling:
    Rivers are rolling, and I can't get over!


Click to play

Click to play (corrected)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: GUEST,CB
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 11:15 PM

I tend to sing:

Captain, captain, you are a dandy
Captain, captain, you likes your brandy

Captain, captain, you are a dandy
Captain, captain, your daughter she is randy

Shiny-o is the captain's daughter
A pretty little thing but I can't get at her

Shiny-o is the captain's daughter
A pretty little thing and I got at her

Captain, captain, you are a dandy
Captain, captain, your daughter she's a-randy

Rock and roll me over, she rocked and rolled me over
She rocked and rolled me over, for forty miles or over


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: shipcmo
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 06:24 AM

X:1
T: Shiney O!
M:C
L:1/16
K:Ab
c4 c4 c4 c4 | e4 c3 B A4 B4 | (c6 B2 c3 B A6 G) | F6 A2 c8 | f4 c4 A4 F4 | G4 G3 G C4 =E4 | (F4 G4 A4 c4) | F6 =E2 F8 ||

To create a score, copy the abc notation above, and paste in Tune-O-Tron


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 07:37 AM

These three songs seem to form a group:
Shiny-O
Bound Down Trinidad (Sunnydore)
Shenandoh as heard in Demerara by Bullen

***
The notation in the Hatfield article is a bit messed up rhythmically on certain tunes; measure 3 on Shiny-O has a mistake.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:54 PM

Just to clarify and be more specific--

The notation in Hatfield's article for "Shiny-O" has a notational "typo" in the third measure. The most likely scenario for how it was meant to be is that the second to last note, instead of a dotted quarter note, should read as a dotted eighth.

shipcmo's notation, just above my post, reflects the Hatfield notation exactly; the typo is in the original article, not the notation here.

Hatfield's shanties in the article have a few other fishy notation issues. This is quite common, as these guys (and gals, e.g. Hatfield's daughter who helped notate) were not musicologists! Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas is notorious (in my book) for lots of notational flubs -- some of which have been read literally by "revivers"...resulting in some new melodies! :) It is too bad that people like Hatfield and Hugill did not record themselves singing ALL the chanties they remembered.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 06:59 PM

Gibb, I'm not very good at ABC. How should the last measure look? I posted Geo's second MIDI, but the two sound the same to me. Why am I so confused?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 10:43 PM

Thanks, Joe.
The second one ("corrected") does indeed have the initial MIDI/ABC problem sorted out, and it also reflects my suggested correction (admittedly one person's opinion, but I doubt anyone would argue). It's perfect, as far as I'm concerned.
I don't know ABC, but I have the original article to look at and my ex-jazz bassist dot-readin' chops =)...and the first MIDI posted is most definitely not the one you'd want in the archive.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:56 AM

This tune really got into my bones, and I thought I'd try singing it real quick. I recorded it "unrehearsed."

"Shiny O" by Ranzo, the YouTube Chanteyman

The OP can feel free to use any of these other/additional words LOL.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 10:32 AM

I searched my "iTunes" (half the time I don't know what's in there) and I found I had 2 recordings of "Shiny O!"!

The first is by Bristol Shantymen. It is quite faithful to the Hatfield article -- which I assume is the only source for this song (?). They follow all the lyrics (except to drop a few words that don't fit the melody well). They have harmonized it in a way that sounds maybe "Celtic" (?) somehow to my ear. The only melodic changes they've made are that: 1. Instead of articulating the rhythm of the third measure (start of the first chorus), it becomes just a wavering/ornamented descending line; 2. In the last measure, it sounds like they are singing a flat 7th (Eb) rather than natural (E), which gives the song more of a "modal" quality.

I also have a recording from Stan Hugill. He is wearing his "Folk Revivalist" hat. This is an instructive example, that should be heeded by the few :) people that think Hugill was unimpeachably "authentic." It's evident that he has just picked this song up in the Revival. He introduces it by saying that (paraphrasing) "came from a White man who heard these 3 Negros singing this on a ship from Philadelphia to Genoa a good many years ago"! Translation: Hatfield notated it from a crew of Jamaicans on the way from Pensacola to Nice in 1886. He goes on to sing the Hatfield lyrics ("correcting" brandy to rhyme with dandy), but to a totally different melody. The audience never does catch on to the melody of the chorus, so either his version was unfamiliar to them, or the song itself was brand new.

Who was first to revive this song from print? Was Hugill's random melody something he made up after looking at the text, or after hearing someone?

And so there seems to have developed two revival versions of this -- one of which has a non-traditional melody.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 12:34 PM

Gibb, take a look at this old thread:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=102043

That mystery remains unsolved.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Barb'ry
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 06:19 PM

I was told that the 'hens and chickens' in the 'hens and chickens flying over' line, refer to the topmost sails/flags. No idea if this is true though.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 10:32 PM

I was told that the 'hens and chickens' in the 'hens and chickens flying over' line, refer to the topmost sails/flags. No idea if this is true though.

This is off topic -- but your comment has prompted me to wonder why we often sing things that we don't know the meaning of. I mean, I am sure that ancient Hindu priests had to memorize by rote to pass on, unchanged, the unwritten texts of the Vedas. But in chanties we can sing more or less anything we want (within a particular style of discourse). And it's not like these verses are so precious that, despite a couple unfathomable phrases, we need to preserve them.

So a rhetorical question: If you don't know what you are singing...and unless your goal is to render a historical artifact...why sing it?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:10 AM

Because it adds to the interest.

Maybe some day it'll make sense!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:17 PM

Don't be so patronising, Gibb Sahib. Guest Jeff had already mentioned the possible meaning of 'hens and chickens' and I was merely adding what I had been told. And what on earth do you mean by 'why are you singing it'? Just because I queried two words in a sing does not mean I cannot grasp its meaning! Back off you rude man.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:36 PM

Basic, objective questions that people don't often think about are too often taken as snide criticisms. I once innocently asked a juggler exactly why he juggled and he almost brained me with his wooden juggling balls. He thought my question was some kind of slam.

I thought he was great juggler. I just wondered why he liked juggling rather than, say, playing tennis or watching NASCAR. Maybe it's the sort of thing that's too hard to put into words.

Gibb asks an interesting question about the psychology of song. Why *do* we sing what makes no obvious sense? We don't speak it unless we're very drunk or something, and we worry when we hear other speaking incoherently. Singing is different.

I gave one possible answer a few hours ago. Seriously.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 01:47 PM

Perhaps you are right, Lighter, and his 'rhetorical question' was not intended to be snide. He did start with a snipe about it being 'off topic' though, even though someone had already brought the question up in an earlier post.

The trouble with posts is that they can often be taken in two ways - for example, Gibb Sahib could be referring to my post as being off-topic, or possibly that he was going to make a comment that was off-topic!

Perhaps I yelled before I was bitten - in which case, I apologise: if I was bitten, my comments stand!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 04:20 AM

Hi Barb'ry

Sorry my post was confusing. Yes, your comment was about the lyrics of this particular song (the topic of the thread), whereas mine was a broad "philosophical" question. I thought it would be obvious that I was acknowledging I was about to go off topic. And by using "we", I was implicating myself, too, among people who are "guilty" of singing things of unknown or opaque meaning.

Now to the question of And what on earth do you mean by 'why are you singing it'?

It seems to me that within certain genres of music or modes of performance or cultural traditions or whatever...it is assumed that a singer sings that which has clear meaning to him/her. S/he is conveying a "message", communicating. This is the case even if the audience does not understand completely. If one takes the example of, say, a rapper in Hip Hop, it is unlikely that s/he is going to sing something that does not come from his brain in the same way that speech does (i.e. in the sense that Lighter points out). However, within other spheres of singing, the singers do not necessarily operate that way. They convey words that don't depend on the same sort of exact correspondence between what one wants to communicate and what is being said.

Perhaps one difference is that the first situation is characteristic of when the singer and the text-creator are one and the same person, and the second situation is characteristic of a kind of preservation or replication of text created by another. Both may exist to some extent in all kinds of music, but I think it's possible to see certain genres as subscribing more or less to one or the other approach.

What was the approach of the people who would have been heard singing this chanty in the 1880s? Were they passing on "traditionary" lyrics that they had received from others? The issue is not so much whether they understood a given phrase, but whether their approach was generally one of preservation/replication...or of creation? I am not saying it was one or the other; but though I think there was room for both, I propose that one approach was more characteristic: creation and/or the assumption that one sings only what is meaningful to the singer.

The 20th century Folk Music approach seems to lean much more towards the preservation/replication and/or the assumption that texts that may mean little to us are nonetheless viable for performance. ("Meaning" is complicated; I am only referring to really direct, propositional meaning, not meaning like "My grandma always sang this to me before bedtime," etc.) Perhaps this is what really defines "Folk music" (e.g. versus "traditional music"). The historically relatively recent notion of "folk music" does not just refer to "oral transmission" or "music of the common people." People performing within Folk Music movements tend to have a particular relationship with the texts that often differs from that of the people who "originally" performed the musical style.

Within a given style, is it the texts that constitute the "tradition"? To be traditional, are we to preserve and replicate those texts? Or is that tradition one of *creating* texts or changing them to communicate and be "meaningful" (in that sort of "direct intent" way)? If I recite Snoop Dogg's rap, am I preserving his tradition, or, within the aesthetics of this particular sphere of performance, am I just being lame? What kind of performance was "Shiny O"? Are the aesthetics of 1880s Jamaican sailors compatible with 20th century folk singers? The latter group, in pursuing their method of being traditional through repeating texts that are not necessarily attached to communicative intent, might in fact be doing something that is quite *contrary* to the "tradition" of the former. And if that is the case, why do we do it? Why do we seek the meaning of "shiny," when we can create our own, 100% clearly meaningful texts?

Do not misunderstand -- I can see the appeal of taking an interest in e.g. past meanings of words and such, collecting and mapping texts and "lore." This is a major component of the discipline of Folklore--the latter which goes hand in hand with Folk Music, no matter how much performers pretend to reject academics...they are quite often, in a sense, amateur folklorists. But while I can see the appeal and identify with some reasons why (e.g. the one offered by Lighter), those reasons are not to be taken for granted as the default way of operating as *performers.* As a historian, I am extremely interested in what texts of "Shiny" were heard sung, but as a performer I find it my obligation to question why I would necessarily sing them myself, since 1) I don't believe the practice was one of prescribing specific lyrics to be passed down and 2) they don't particularly speak to me in any case.

There is much more that can be said/discussed, but I confess I am reluctant to start a dedicated thread -- because I believe starters of such threads have a certain responsibility to "maintain" them, and I am not up for that at the moment!

Gibb


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 08:38 AM

[Only somewhat "off topic"] Gibb, I think that what you have just said here about "tradition", "performance", and the "Folk Revival", etc. is one of the best articulations of this thorny nest of problems I've ever seen and worth a lot of reflection. The same thing said/sung in a different time and place is not the "same thing". Critical historical reconstruction, contemporary performance, and entertainment are all matters of interpretation, and they are very different and distinct exercises, although not necessarily mutually exclusive. But I do think that the question of "why" one sings "what" one sings "should" have something to do with "how" one sings it, if one is singing it "for others". It seems to me that public performance implies some kind of responsibility for interpretation. But I must confess that I get into lots of trouble trying to talk about these things.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 12:53 PM

I can think of five kinds of "folksingers" in the world today. Add caffeine and get this:

1. Re-enactors: They're carefully try to reproduce the style and texts of real traditional singers. As they improve, they apply the style to songs they've found in books. Sometimes they conflate versions, but otherwise they hardly ever innovate much. (Their accompaniments are sometimes quite innovative, but I'm just talking about singing.) They're essentially nostalgic preservationists.

2. Singer-songwriters: They've been inspired by sophisticated arrangements of songs by professional "folksingers." They don't know much about folklore, but they believe their own songs are part of it, partly because they've written the songs as much for self-expression as to give the audience what it wants. The more careful and elaborate the arrangements, of course, the more formal and less traditional everything becomes. Singer-songwriters are "folk" only through the magic of marketing.

3. Thoroughly professional, throughly commercial singers who sing elaborately arranged versions of standard traditional and pop songs which they think are "folk" because most have some sort of "ethnic" content. They make a living by performing for a mass audience that knows no more about traditional music than they do. Like the singer-songwriters, they're usually excellent musicians. But they live in the world of pop music.

4. Professionals who've studied tradition and revise and adapt traditional songs for modern tastes. Martin Carthy and even Steeleye Span are good examples. The songs I'm referring to are based in traditional versions but done in new styles and with new emphases.

5. Genuine traditional singers. This covers everybody who knows and sings even one traditional song, but as I wrote on another thread, we're interested mainly in traditional singers who know lots of songs, unusual versions, or even one very rare song. They learned their traditional songs largely by word of mouth by living in communities where traditional singing was fairly normal and not just a weird hobby. They probably know non-trad songs as well. Genuine traditional singers don't usually cultivate formal standards of voice quality, and they're less bothered than others by occasionally garbled words in a text.

There are very few genuine traditional singers left, except for people who sing songs that mostly appear in specific, narrow social situations like drinking parties (where the only traditional songs are likely to be of the "rugby" or "air force" variety), or the schoolyard (where tiny traditional singers sing about killing Barney and blowing up the school). Thanks to songbooks and CDs, most of these songs are becoming more and more standardized too.

Time for another cup of joe.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: maranjo
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 12:20 PM

Jeepers. All I was looking for was further info on available lyrics for Shiny-o. Talk about off topic (interesting discussion though it was).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:39 PM

Anything to help, Martin.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:34 AM

Some close listening to the Alan Lomax archive!...and I found this, another documented rendition of Shiny O (/Down Trinidad).

Ride 'Em Trinidad (probably really "...Down Trinidad")

Recorded 1962 in Grenada.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: John Minear
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:01 AM

Nice find, Gibb. I enjoyed listening to that. J.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:28 AM

Very, very nice!

"Ride Down" sounds right to me.

Notable: the excellent voices, the constant encouragement to the shantyman (a West Indian trait?), the appearance of "Shenandoah," and the fact that the shanty consist of just two or three stanzas repeated ad lib.

Since shantying sailors were *workmen* and not *entertainers,* that was presumably a not-infrequent practice. That, plus the use of spur-of-the-moment lyrics and floating verses reinforces Bullen's feeling that only one or two stanzas were specific to any shanty. And as I've observed before, Carpenter's texts are also usually brief.

Some well-known shanties, like "Blow the Man Down" and "Boney," seem to have carried texts that maintained a certain amount of integrity. Less familiar songs may have been far more fluid.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 09:47 AM

I'll post a transcription this evening.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:19 PM

Recorded by Alan Lomax at L'Esterre, Carriacou I. in the Lesser Antilles, July 30, 1962. The thirteen singers are not on shipboard: instead, they are re-enacting shantying for a wake.

For some odd reason, a note describes the shanty as being sung in "French Creole."

This complete transcription shows just how repetitive a certain style of shantying could be. (There's a certain amount of non-musical shouting throughout, which I have not taken note of):



Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, where you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, we land that cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Oh, the Captain drinkin' whisky, and ye give yesel' a Pepsi
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Hey-ey, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny-O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny-O!
Shannydo, my dooly-a, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Captain drinkin' whisky, and ye give yesel' a Pepsi
        Hey-ey! Shiny-O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Captain drinkin' whisky, and ye give yesel' a Pepsi
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully boy, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Hey-ey! Shiny O!
Shannydo, my bully, you land the cyahgo!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine!

Brandy and wine, whisky and soda
        Heeeey! Shiny O!             [ritardando]

[Spoken:] 'Vast heavin' then.

Compare "Shannydo, my bully boy" with Bullen's words.

Some of the singers may be singing "Shine-dee-O!" or "Shandy O!" The song is listed as "Ride 'em Trinidad," but I seem to hear clearly "Right down..." or "Ride down..." "Dooly-a" may be just a slip of the tongue.

The same day, Lomax recorded another performance with a different leader. This time he added his own voice to the chorus:


Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

[Someone shouts:] Heave away!

(One-off tune change in first line:)
Right down Trinidad, brandy and wi-ine
        Hey-ey, Shandy O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

[Shouted rhythmically:] Oh, call a good time on that gal over there,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

[Shouted:] Heave away, man! Heave away! Heave away!
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

[Shouted:] Start out for that roll [inaudible], my boy!
       Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

[Another singer:] Brandy and wine, whisky and water
        Waaaaaay, Shiny O!
[First singer:] Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shandy O!
[Shouted:] Call a good time on that gal o'er there for me, big boy!
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

Oh, brandy and wine, whisky and soda,
        Hey-ey, Shiny O!
Oh, Shannydo, my boy, will you land that cyahgo?
        Right down Trinidad, brandy and wine.

'VAST HEAVIN'!
'Vast Heaving!
'VAST HEAVIN'!

Though the song has been kept alive in an island black community and is sung by blacks, the melody is modal and lacks blue notes – another suggestion that the "blues" is relatively recent (ca1890) and more North American than African. Harding's shanties in Hugill are similarly "non-bluesy."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM

And check out Gibb singing Hatfield's tune from 1886:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thCQlZ8cya0

The differing melodies and second choruses arguably make for different shanties.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:24 PM

Thanks for the transcription, Lighter! Great work.

Perhaps most of the Caribbean examples of shantying have that sort of repetition -- at least the one recorded by Lomax. I believe one of the contributing factors is that the individuals had "forgotten" how to sing shanties. Just an opinion, which I might be able to support with more evidence... But in general I am suggesting that this trait isn't necessarily indicative of the way things were done 60+ years earlier (not that you said it was).

I guess another way to phrase this would be to say that the existence of only 1 or a few (or zero) "regulation" verses can be read different ways, as 1) the start of a stream of completely unstable, varying text or 2) as a narrow set of verses that get repeated a lot.

Since we have (written) examples from a much earlier period that show #1, then #2 in the Lomax's recordings might be interpreted as either a Caribbean-specific style or as a change from former custom.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 09:22 PM

Excellent sound recording! I really enjoyed this 'chantey'.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 09:33 PM

I just tried to post a long note that has disappeared into space.

The bottom line is that without extensive recordings of real shanties being sung by real sailing-ship crews in the nineteenth century, we can't know precisely what they sounded like. Surely they weren't as entertaining as we would like.

My skeptical, pessimistic view is that the average shantyman repeated himself often and adlibbed rather crudely. No witness ever wrote that the words of the shanties were very interesting.

Hatfield's tiny collection is especially valuable for being both relatively early and entirely unpretentious. The lyrics he gives are, well, mostly pretty dull. Much the same can be said for Bullen. Remember too that Hugill emphasized that "stringing out" was a very common way of making a song last through a long job. Carpenter's singers "string out" frequently.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: Rumncoke
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 09:47 PM

If I ever sang this I'd have to alter the response to 'how deep is the water?' - even though I only sailed on a little yacht, I'd like six fathoms far better than six feet.

I wonder if the 'lost art' of shantying is just that the singers were using a foreign language, had learned what they sang by rote and that was enough for them to keep the time.

The entertainment value of Sally Brown and Cheerly man and the like would be lost if the innuendo and cultural stereotypes were not understood.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:11 AM

Note the "alternate" chorus in stanza 4 of version 1.

My guess is that it's a real variant that someone began to sing absent-mindedly and that the other singers immediately fell into.

The tedium of the repetitiveness is largely offset by the great tune and the harmony singing - which Hugill observes was common only in the West Indies and sometimes among Welsh crews.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: John Minear
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 08:06 AM

Lighter, thanks for that transcription. A lot of good work. I was wondering about the idea of "tedium of the repetitiveness". It seems to me that whether or not something like this sounds/feels "tedious" might well be dependent upon the listener. If one were actually working, the tedium might lie with the work rather than the singing. And listening to this kind of music can be actually relaxing in its repetitiveness. Of course this is a strictly subjective sense of things. In the case of the Caribbean kind of chanties - if there is such a category - I certainly don't feel bored, but that may have a lot to do with the harmonies, as you point out. But I wonder about "tedium".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: GUEST,Squeezer
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 05:31 AM

Gibb's link to Ride 'em Trinindad didn't work for me. Could someone please tell me how close Ride 'em is to Hatfield's tune? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shiny-O or Shiney-O (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Jan 13 - 04:42 PM

Squeezer--

In what sense did it not work? Did the page load up? Let's troubleshoot and get you there. Here's the URL to copy/paste:

http://research.culturalequity.org/get-audio-detailed-recording.do?recordingId=27038

The tune is a different one to Hatfield. However, if you "stretch" your ears, you may hear a similarity in melodic *gestures*, if not precisely in the notes.


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