Duh, They're DEAF!

Subject: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:33 PM

Ya know, some of us folkies are getting older. And so are the people listening to us play and sing. As was brought home to me last night by one dearly-loved person, they are't likely to want to SAY why they can't hear us...... it's taken me this long to realize that no matter how well I may be able to hear our mix, or how well-mixed a visiting musican may say our sound is on any given occasion-- that's the wrong standard for more than 50% of the people out front, at the places we've chosen to play.

Kinda humbling to realize that I may need a sound person with BAD ears.

How might this affect your approach?

~S~

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: treewind
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM

I hope that's not a recommendation for making it too loud.
That's how some of the folks got deaf in the first place.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 02:06 PM

pardon.......

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: olddude
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 02:07 PM

When my kids ask me why dad didn't you listen to what I said. I tell them, cause I sat too close to the speakers at Woodstock. Then they shake their heads and walk away.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: olddude
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 02:19 PM

My wife just said, the hearing isn't the first thing to go !!
OUCH!!!

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 02:31 PM

I hope that's not a recommendation for making it too loud.
That's how some of the folks got deaf in the first place.

No, not at all. Just, I think it IS a factor some of us have not been considering. If you KNOW that most of the people who will be there are hard of hearing and not using hearing aids, yer not gonna reach most of your audience with quiet tunes, and the ones you DO reach are not going to hear the finer nuances of fingerpicking, for example.

~S~

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 03:44 PM

I once did a performance at The School for the Deaf in Montreal. It was certainly different. I'd guess that about 90% of the audience had NO hearing at all.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:19 PM

The D/deaf can gain just as much enjoyment from music as we can, they do it all by different feelings they gain from the vibrations. Have you ever been to a disco for the D/deaf, its wonderfully liberating to say the least. They have great rhythm. There are also some very famous Deaf musicians but I won't go into naming them.

I first became interested in signing when a young man placed his hand on my guitar when I was playing at a club, I was very offended at first then later felt very embarrassed when I realised he was profoundly Deaf, it was then I took up learning BSL (British Sign Language)

rc

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

Whiz, you need Linda Tilton!

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:36 PM

I once sang Sammy's Bar for a deaf-dumb audience, as part of a project organised by one of the charities. The man running it told me he wanted a song that (a) told a story, and (b) had a chorus of sensible words which meant something (so no fol-de-rol-de-diddles). The idea was that I would play and sing it, and he would sign it to the audience who could "sing" along by signing back. (Interesting how close those two words are to each other - same letters, just swap two of them.)

This he did, to great effect, particularly the Hey-the-last-boat's-a'leaving and Call away the dyso chorus lines, which have really good movements to them. It was an inspiring experience. Always meant to tell Cyril Tawney about it, but can't remember whether I ever did.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Clipper
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 05:46 PM

I play folk blues and classic rock for handicapped children Friday's at The Montreal Association For The Blind and Mackay School for the Deaf. If I know a child is deaf, I'll put the guitar against their arm and strum hard.. the reaction is always a huge smile. Regardless of the childs level of mental or physical handicap, the music always seems to reach them, and each one does his or her best to add something to the sounds.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Rumncoke
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:19 PM

I remember seeing a youngster with obvious problems looking blankly at a morris side, the fiddles and accordions, then at me with my drum beating time to the music until the dancing started.

I could see his eyes start to follow the beat, then the movement of the violin bow next to me, and then he started to beat time - I think to a tune he either could not hear, or could not make sense of. At that point the chair pusher said 'oh he's bored, lets get on', and he was wheeled away.

Just for a second as the chair turned he looked into my eyes - I suspect that there was a perfectly good person in there, just needing to be let out.

I know that my hearing is fairly good - I used to be able to hear bats and dog whistles, though not very low pitched sounds, and I kept it due to carrying ear defenders along to various venues.

When I worked in a technical college in the Physics lab, very few of the students could do the sound experiments because they could not hear - could not tune the sonometers using beats, and when they used the sound generators they would turn them up towards the higher frequencies until the sound - to them, vanished, and I would shriek at them to stop the noise.

It would be interesting to find out just what the average hearing range is these days - if such statistics are kept, and how it compares with pre disco days.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 07:52 PM

The average range has got to be shrinking from what it used to be-- noise pollution plus aging demographic.

~S~

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:41 PM

After 25 odd years (ODD? no evens?) of playing violin and fiddle, I finally was taught that I play mostly by sympathetic vibration. That is why my intonation in the upper positions was never quite spot on.

My technique, sight reading, etc skills were excellent, but I just can't hear or feel those tiny increments of intonation way up the neck. 3rd positon I can sort of do...but nothing higher.

Linda Tilton, per my link above, is just AMAZING. She has advanced degrees in sign, music and dance. She uses them all to interpret a song. One of the funniest things I've ever seen was her signing/dancing to John McCutcheons' Rubber Blubber Whale song.

Don't count folks out just because we can't hear everything.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:00 AM

Age and deafness don't need to go together. I read of a study once which said that in non-industrial societies, very few old people lose hearing.

My mother had a hearing test when she was past 75. The audiologist called a student in and introduced my mother. "This is Mrs. ****. Mrs. *** has the best hearing I have ever encountered in my career."

However, when you are dealing with really old person, two things help the communication process. 1) Talk more slowly. 2) Get their attention and let them know you are about to speak to them.

Rule 1, 'Talk more slowly' is also a great help when talking with someone from a distant part of the English-speaking world.

As for sound systems, you couldn't possibly adjust sound to compensate for the all the possible forms of hearing loss in an audience. Probably the best sound is the most natural sound.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Bert
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:27 AM

Well I've got an excuse! All good boilermakers are deaf.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 02:46 AM

I hope that's not a recommendation for making it too loud.
That's how some of the folks got deaf in the first place.

Volume leads to hearing loss. It is just like smoking, it's not the first, nor the last that kills you. It is the 40 years in between. And just like smoking the effect is cumulative and proportional to dosage.

And just like smoking it effects other things too - though I haven't seen any reports of it clogging-up arteries and ruining "that".

The World Health Organisation have produced a report expressing concern about relatively low level noise from urban living raising hormone (not those) levels like adrenaline and cortisol and it increases the death rate in those with heart conditions. Drinkers and smokers amongst them.

Deaths during Folk concerts are rare - but there was one during the Cheltenham Folk Festival, this year. How soon before we have to issue a Gov Health Warning?

Lets face it - you wouldn't create a loud bang behind a person with a week heart - would you? Loud music has a similar effect - but more slowly.

Apple are bringing-out an iPod that reduces the volume if it has been set too loud too long. Litigious America (and here in the UK now) is not unconnected with this decision.

And you try telling that to organisers. They won't believe you.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:00 AM

See this thread for some related comments:

Noisy band. Should the caller worry?

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Tangledwood
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:39 AM

Let's not forget that there are degrees of deafness in varying frequency ranges. I was recently at a festival at which the sound mixer did have bad ears - in the lower ranges. The result was that he boosted the bass end so much that the rest of us had great difficulty hearing the vocals. It didn't help that most of the music was country rock. Finally after a number of complaints he sought advice from individuals in the audience when making adjustments.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,Alan Surtees
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:58 AM

Organisers of folk festivals have many difficult decisions to make and the provision of sound at festivals obviously plays a big part in ensuring the success of their event. Getting the sound right will be almost every organisers first thought.

I don't think that anyone would imagine that organisers set out to make their customers deaf; this would be a self defeating objective. Voices and acoustic instruments do not carry far in large venues and finding the best possible way of creating enough volume for everyone to hear has been a problem for hundreds of years (that's is why orchestras are so big).

Amplifying sound electronically has been the answer for a hundred years or so and this system has improved dramatically over recent years. However amplification has its problems and subjecting the human ear to excessive sound for long periods is obviously dangerous. How excessive and for how long is a matter guidance from others. There are other factors which also come into play and like everything else with human kind, tolerance to sound and how badly it may affect people can and will vary. And the way people subject themselves to sound must also be taken into account, if you stand with your ear in a bass bin for three hours your hearing will definitely suffer.

The only option that an organiser has to deliver sound at a festival is the current method of amplification. So they should either refrain from organising an event because everything is so dangerous, or attempt to mitigate the problems by employing the best sound contractors and ensuring that they recognise any danger and provide the best equipment. There are many other factors involved in providing sound, the requirements of the artist, the legal requirements of the environmental health department, and the many and varied wishes of the audience.

Perhaps some clever electronics engineer will come up with the answer. In future we may all be wearing in-ear devices so that we can all determine the volume, the shape and the mix ourselves. A clever person with enough drive and commitment could make a lot of money by developing such a device. Of course he would have to be a businessman.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:00 AM

OK Alan - that's your next job then buddy!
Talking of signing for the deaf, Festival at the Edge has often employed signers, and one of the funnies thing I ever saw was a lady signing whilst Les Barker did 'Dachsunds with erections can't climb stairs' - Much more fun to watch than Les!!

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:25 AM

It's impossible to be aware of what you DON'T have, but it seems to me that I have kept my excellent hearing by avoiding loud noise. I spent a couple of months in the engine room of the ship I served in, a 311 foot search and rescue, weather ship called COOS BAY. Those engines were so noisy, the only way we could communicate was by slate board and chalk.Each engine room, (there were two) had twin 10 cylinder diesel engines that developed 1600 HP each. I was glad to get back on deck. I'm now in my 70s and my hearing is excellent.

I would never sit through a program where the decibels border on pain.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Marje
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 07:42 AM

It's not just about volume, is it? As we get older we lose the ability to hear certain frequencies, usually the high ones.

UK 'Catters will probably know this, but for those who don't: in some UK cities they've been experimenting with using bursts of high-frequency sound to discourage gangs of young people from loitering around in city centres causing trouble (I am not endorsing the idea that being young and in a group is necessarily a problem). They use a frequency that over-25s are unlikely to be able to hear at all, but which under-25s may find physically uncomfortable, and the idea is that this will cause them to disperse or move on. (It does not, of course cause them to vanish completely, so if there is a problem they're only moving it elsewhere). It's being challenged, I think, on grounds of human rights - being under 25 is not a criminal offence and no reason to be subjected to unpleasant noise levels in public places.

Anyway, what this suggests is that there is a measurable loss of hearing in the higher frequencies that sets in during early adulthood, and probably continues throughout life. Making everything louder doesn't help, as the lower frequencies will still dominate in the hearing of the older listener, and younger listeners may be even more disturbed by it.

I have no idea what the implications of this are for those who do the sound mixing, as they have to accept that individuals in the audience will hear things differently. Overall, they tend, in my view, to err on the side of too much volume, which makes me feel physically uncomfortable and does nothing to improve the clarity of words or melodies. I was at a concert in a village hall recently, at which a child had to be moved away from his seat, which was close to the speaker - he had his hands over his ears and was crying as if in pain. That sort of amplification is just not necessary or sensible.

Marje

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 08:25 AM

Actually there are ways of delivering sound to large venues at less volume.

The problem is that it is complex and not a complete answer. And not cheap. It involves multiple speakers down the length of the venue with delays appropriate to the distance (and the temperature and humidity). Do a sound check on that and as soon as the people enter, the temperature and humidity change. Gawd knows how sensitive that is. Then of course sound moves in three dimensions (4 actually - time) whilst the people are laid-out in two and speakers would be in one dimension (ish). Consequently sound men will tell you it doesn't work. It does but............

WiFi transmitters and headsets would work - at a price but apart from raising a smile it it is not much of a solution.

The real concern is that as venues get larger it impinges on all other endeavours in the vacinity, which is where it matters at festivals. Marquees are not soundproof. Sessions in tents suffer and even second stages. Pity the poor beginner on a showcase stage.

Part of the perceived need for volume is noise from the audience. Control that if you dare. More people = more chaterers, which makes it more acceptable they think.

So are we all to blame? As I see it, yes, for not sitting quietly, yes for putting up with it, yes for wanting bigger (not = better), yes for not listening.

FWIW orchestras are painfully aware of the perils of hearing loss in their musicians. It is a subject for discussion there.

And anyone heard of the Mosquito? Device to annoy the under 20's. We all loose some aural acuity that young, and slowly more as the years progress. Some faster than others. And the average age of "hearing impairment" is falling - says the Gov.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:27 AM

It's fine with me that this thread is wandering all over the map, away from both the initial post and the experience we have here in this rural culture where hardy people tend to live so long that their experience varies widely from that of the prevailing culture. But Hardi and I are having a good laugh picturing some of our people out at rock or hippie concerts in their youth, damaging their hearing-- it's just not them. Also, we're not doing sound for festivals, either.

Here are a few comments from upthread (I am taking them out of context) that best reflect the reasons I started this thread:

Let's not forget that there are degrees of deafness in varying frequency ranges.

and

All good boilermakers are deaf.

and

Don't count folks out just because we can't hear everything.


What we are going to have to do is figure out how to set up sound/environment where those who need the higher volume can get it, and those who don't, won't. Something a little more sophisticated than earmuffs or target-range hearing protectors, but not much.


Fortunately, our band's founding member is, himself, a "progressive-hearing-loss elder," and can talk with us openly about the issues we need to address. We just never quite GOT it until now-- thus the DUH in the thread title.

Carry on,

~S~

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 09:44 AM

Before I got my hearingaid the jazz club I frequented used to ask my advice when doing the sound check- if I found it too loud they would turn it down!
Now I'm glad I can sometimes turn my aid down (or off) when I go to noisy gigs. The "party" setting that tunes out noise from behind is useful in theatres etc when the folks in the row behind keep yakking!

RtS
(aka Tone Deaf Lime Clinton)

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

1. Making it louder isn't the answer. I've been to concerts where loud sound bounced off the walls and mixed with the sound coming out, thus producing a muddy rumble. This is in churches where people had services for years with no amplification.

2. Nobody paid any attention when I said it, but it's still true that slowing down the rate of speech is more helpful than making it louder.

3. Why don't soundboards have built-in decibel meters or something like that which will warn when the sound level is getting dangerously high? It shouldn't matter how well the soundman can hear.

4. There are a lot of naive performers who think that a concert isn't really exciting, isn't really show-biz, unless it's loud. Four of us were at a jazz club last night, and we all wore hearing protection, it was so loud.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 04:41 PM

I have binaural hearing loss and tinnitus and wear a hearing aid in each ear. The audiologist determined that it came from things like helicopter engines, unmuffled electrical generators, small arms fire, and explosives while I was in the Army. For years I have worn hearing protection when I shoot, cut the grass, use power tools, and do other noisy things.

And I dislike loud music (i.e., too loud for comfort) as much as I dislike music played at the wrong tempo or off key.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:31 PM

My hearing has begun to deteriorate now that I'm 60.

I always thought that age-related hearing loss would be like slowly entering a world of silence. Not so! I only wish things were getting quieter in my world.

My experience is that undifferentiated background noise is becoming subjectively louder as it becomes increasingly difficult to isolate and clearly hear the voices, etc., that I want to hear.

I've never had a long-term job in an especially noisy environment. I did have a few part-time jobs plus a six-to-eight-month full-time stretch operating printing presses, but most of my twenty-some-off years in the graphic arts biz were spent in quiet pre-press environments, mostly setting type in a clean, air-conditioned, office-like setting.

I've attended my share of electric-music concerts and barroom gigs, maybe more than my share. Even as a much younger guy, I was never able to carry on conversations during the music, which some people seem to easily enjoy. Part of it is that I don't generally want to make small talk, I'd rather listen to the music. But I've also always been more-or-less unable to easily sort out speech from a background of loud music.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: sapper82
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

Living with tinitus for the past 11y, I've never ceased to be amazed by the performers who appear to use excessive amplification to cover up crap technique.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:42 PM

Bonnie Shaljean to use the words 'deaf-dumb is very offensive now days, years ago it was presumed that if you were deaf you were also dumb, which of course we all know is preposterous. I beleive the world has gone mad with things having to be politically correct but on this one it should be the case.

rc

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:08 PM

Sorry.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:11 PM

What does the "D' stand for in D/deaf in your post of 5:19?

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:33 PM

Hi Bonnie Shaljean,
Sorry wasn't trying to be cheeky, or a know it all, far from it. I work with the D/deaf and have taught Deaf Awareness to companies, and this is a subject we cover. The older generations still use these sayings today. Anyway the big D in deaf represents those who are profoundly deaf, and who associate more, and have grown up in the deaf community, normally born into deaf families, the small d in deaf represents those who although profoundly deaf tend to associate more with the hearing community and tend to be born into hearing families. By writing the word D/deaf in this way means we are covering the fuller spectrum.

rc

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:45 PM

I was told by the charity organising the concert that the audience I was playing for could neither hear nor speak. But this WAS years ago, so maybe they got it wrong. I just liked the idea of people who did not use their voices being able to join in a song. Didn't mean to cause offense.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 06:55 PM

;-) non taken honestly.

rc

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

From: Bert
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:27 AM

Well I've got an excuse! All good boilermakers are deaf.



   That's funny. Good boilermakers tend to make me go blind. ;^)

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:07 PM

Earlier this year I learned that I wasn't to wear my hearing aids during a colonoscopy.

Turns out it's NOT because the scope might come out your ear....

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Clipper
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 08:28 PM

I've been a tinitus sufferer for the past 15 years. I've heard there's a new implant that supposedly works extremely well. I don't have any details apart from hearing that this device exists. I'm going to spend a bit of time googleing it. If I find more info, i'll post it here.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 09:28 PM

It may be a cochlear implant. They are supposed to work on some types of tinnitus.

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 03:56 AM

When I left the Army, the doctor casually informed me I had a hearing loss. I thought maybe I'd get some sort of disability allowance or maybe some medical treatment to fix it, but no such deal. So, I've learned to cope, and to stay out of situations where I can't hear. I've found that I have trouble when the noise is too loud, or when it comes from too many sources. Oftentimes, all I hear is a din, and I can't distinguish conversation - parties can be especially frustrating. I have a hard time distinguishing speech in our kitchen, which is a very "live" room. So, I kick people out of the room when I'm cooking or washing the dishes.

The tinnitis goes up and down. You learn to live with it. In choir, I try to stand on the end of the row, keeping sound away from my "bad" right ear.

People with a hearing loss don't need more volume - they need sound that is focused toward them, and a reduction of echo, distortion, and other distracting sound.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Duh, They're DEAF!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

Good advice, Joe. I'll keep those things in mind.

True story. A few years ago, my in-laws were going to have a party at their small summer cabin. I bowed out, wanting to spend time with my own parents.

Afterwards, my husband said to me, 'Bunny, I'm so glad you weren't there.' This were the things happening at the small cabin:

1. Loud, competitive game of Trivial Pursuit.
2. Packers football game on the TV.
3. Chicago Bears game on the radio at the same time.
   (brother-in-law was a Bears fan)
4. Four children playing with cap guns. Naturally this involved   chasing, screaming and shouting.

Noise reached its peak when an innovative child discovered that you can rest the cap gun on the steel circular staircase, fire it and send a big report into the cabin. At that point, brother sent the kids outside.

If I had been there, I believe I would already have locked myself in the car so that these madmen couldn't get at me.