Tech: Monitor stops computer?

Subject: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 04:01 AM

This may interest some of you. While I was playing musical chairs with my computers, I thought for a glorious moment or two that I was going to ahve to go out and buy new motherboards.

I put this computer (Richard, I call it) onto the work desk where I usually use the TFT screens to save desk space, and the computer would not boot and made nasty despairing motherboard beeps (one, then two, not sure where my motherboard manual is).

Shit, I thought. I must ahve static-ed something while taking it to bits and swapping PCI cards about.

Popped another computer (the one I call Jeff) in same space. Similar problem different beeps.

Don't ask me why it occurred to me, but I then took the TFT monitor off and put a CRT one on. All AOK.

It can ONLY have been the TFT monitor causing the trouble.

DId you ever hear teh like?

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 04:43 AM

The CRT monitor most likely is an analog only device.

The TFT may be set to run in digital mode. Some will switch automatically between analog and digital, depending on which cable you hook up, but some are single-mode and others have to be "switched" manually, and usually different cables are required for the two modes.

I can't say that a mismatch of this kind would cause the symptoms described, but it's the most likely disconflugelation I can think of off-the-cuff.

If you have a computer obsolete old enough to beep, it likely doesn't have a digital output for a monitor, unless you've added a new card. Lots of the new ones don't beep at all, and some few only "beep on errors."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 05:15 AM

John, I'm not sure beeping means obsolete/old. The newest motherboard I have (ASUS M2M-SLI Deluxe - socket AM2) has a speaker connection. I don't have a speaker in the case its in though.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 06:05 AM

Lots of the makers seem to be leaving the case speaker off. My impression is that most motherboards probably have a connection for one, but the speaker is just omitted. I've seen comments that imply that some of the newer motherboards don't even have a connection.

A few machines that I've looked at that do have a speaker installed, omit the "beep codes" from the user manuals, apparently assuming that the codes don't tell you enough to be really helpful.

(Or maybe it's because they ship the same "model" with different BIOS chips - depending on price at time of build, which can change the codes?)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 06:36 AM

One thing with this motherboard is it has a LED. This one only indicates poweron/standby on but I wonder whether something like that might replace the "beep codes"?

Back to the original topic. I've not come across Richard's problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:53 PM

I haven't seen anything resembling the problem description, but in the interest of non-productive speculation:

Most flat panel displays, TFT and other, have a specific screen size and don't work well - sometimes don't work at all - with another screen size. My current laptop prefers ~1200x800 px and while I can get an image within a couple of steps from that it's not at all pleasant to look at. An older laptop refused to allow me to set display size to anything but the one size it wanted. My desktop flat screen runs best at 1280x1024, and accepts a different size a little better than the laptop, but still asserts its complaints if I get far from the preferred value.

The minimum screen size that many flat screen monitors can accept "gracefully" may be bigger than an older graphics card can provide. Since "delete the driver and reboot" is an almost ubiquitous procedure, it would be expected that any Win system should be able to default to a graphics driver that would give you some sort of display sufficient to reload and troubleshoot regardless of the monitor type connected, but Richard may have found a hardware combination where this doesn't work.

I was told once that a computer doesn't need to have a monitor in order to boot, but that was several decades ago and the SPGWK¹ who offered the advice couldn't explain:

how do you know it's booted without a monitor?

so I've never tried it out.

¹ SPGWK = Self-Proclaimed Genius/Geek With Keyboard = the most prevalent generic kind of "advisor" found on open-format "help blogs." (Does not, of course, include any of us here.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:07 PM

That's correct, John. A monitor is not needed with a PC. I have used them a few times like that but currently I'm using a KMV switch to share a monitor (and keyboard/mouse) between 3.

If its on a network, there are programs like VNC that can be used and some O/S may offer their own "remote administration".

Then there are the command line things like ssh

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

When I have finished playing musical chairs with computers I will take the monitor round every computer I have including the one it originally worked with and see what results I get.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:02 PM

So it sounds like a good idea to pester Richard about "how do you know it didn't boot?" to divert the thread away from any brain-taxing effort to figure out what actually happened?

But if we change the subject to useless speculation like that, the IRS will think we've gotten a gov't grant and we'll probably get audited.

(It gets so very hard to have a bit of fun with your friends these days.)

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:07 PM

I knew it didn't boot because

1. After beeping, it sat there longer than normal with no signs of drive activity
2. The three fingered salute did nothing
3. When it did come good with a CRT on, I got the usual crap about checking drives and boot into safe mode.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Apr 08 - 04:13 PM

btw, John, I have my PC speak to me (using festival) when I start mythtv   up. It needs to start the PC connected to the tv up first. The process was takes a minute or more and I was often wondering whether I'd really clicked the program button, whether things were stuck, etc. so in a script, it:

1: Send a WOL message.
2: Try a ping every few seconds and if there is no response have it speak "waiting for network".
3: As above and a mid point in the startup, I check for the database connection - "waiting for My SQL".
4: As above - "waiting for master backend".
5: Once done, it starts the slave backend up on mine, mounts the remote drive and then starts mythtv on mine speaking to me as it does it.

Keeps me amused anyway...

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: pavane
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 03:56 AM

I have a similar problem with a TFT monitor, which I neve got with the CRT on the same machine. Sometimes it won't finish booting up, and a message appears on the screen about unsupported input. I then have to power off the CPU and try again. It has taken up to 4 tries (on one occasion). I keep thinking about changing the monitor, but I don't use the machine very often.

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM

pavane -

Have you checked with the monitor maker to see if there might be an updated driver for your TFT?

Vista will disable any program it decides isn't good for Vista. This sometimes happens at boot, and sometimes happens only when a "non-conforming process" gets called when the program is opened, or during use of the program. Once a program - which can include drivers - is tagged this way by Vista, it's usually "permanently blacklisted" and blocked at boot.

While having Vista on a machine could be sufficient cause to "not use it very often" (personal opinion) I suspect that's not your case. It is possible though that another Win version may have received a "security update" that now blocks a process (usually due to drive or memory access methods) that used to work. This could have caused the system to delete/disable the original/custom TFT monitor driver, and try to substitute a generic one. An "old-enough" system may not have a generic driver that works well with the TFT monitor.

All pure speculation, of course.

Prior to the current Microsoft campaign to "disable everything old enough to work" I might have speculated that you may have a RAM chip that's losing some bits, perhaps - but it's a new world now.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:20 AM

Mine is Windows 98!

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:05 AM

Pavane -

Win98 is probably your problem. It's so old and out of date that all the bits are worn down until they're so rounded off on the ends that the ones look like ohhhhs and the machine can't tell the difference. You're not running on bits - you're just passing lumps.

The suggestion that you look for a new driver (Win98 version) for the TFT monitor still may be worth considering. The Win98 installation may not have a default driver that's suitable for TFT to use as a default, and the original driver still may have been overwritten when Win98 PnP tried to load a default that it had because it didn't recognize the one that came with the monitor, or because it misread the monitor's PnP response/identity.

You might also want to check out the screen sizes the graphics card in that computer can provide, and see if the card is capable of something that the monitor likes.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:55 AM

A bit of a diversion, but just a comment on the boot without a monitor question.

I've maintained computers for blind users for many years. They rarely switch their monitors on, relying on screenreading software and speakers. Back in DOS days, I turned up to make some changes to configuration files, which had to be done before the screenreader started. No monitor on the desk - "Oh, I forgot you'd need it - I lent it to a friend."

Fortunately, the changes were minor, and I had a print of the existing files. With no screen and no sound prompts, I counted lines and characters with the cursor keys, and was very relieved when it worked.

This wouldn't be possible with a GUI.

Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:09 AM

Guest was me with a missing cookie

Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Monitor stops computer?
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:52 AM

I did load the driver that came with the monitor, I suspect it is the video card which is the problem. Monitor works fine on my OLD machine (WIN 95...)
Anyhow, I don't have time to fix it at present, as I am working away from home.
Thanks