Origin: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye

Subject: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

A post to this thread "Law Officers in Songs & Children's Rhymes" thread.cfm?threadid=110403&messages=73 mentioned the song "Moses Ri-tooral-i-ooral-i-ay."

That song reminded me of the 1983 pop hit song "Come On Eileen" that was recorded by Dexys Midnight Runners. "Come on Eileen" includes the line "Go toora loora toora loo rye aye". I learned on a webpage about that song that "Come On Eileen" was written by Kevin Rowland, "Big" Jim Paterson, Billy Adams {who I presume are/were? members of the group Dexys Midnight Runners}. The song was included in the 1983 album "Too-Rye-Ay".

Here's my question: Is that line from "Come On Eileen" connected in any way to "Moses Ri-tooral-i-ooral-i-ay"? In other words, is "toora loor toora loo rye aye" a common refrain in Irish songs or is the similarity between those lines just a coincidence?

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:07 AM

Its a common refrain in Irish songs

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:24 AM

I find "Come On Eileen" to be very catchy. I mean I don't even know what the heck they're saying, and I smile when I hear it, and try to sing along with the only part I know "Come on Eileen, and that "toora loora aye" line. I'm glad I finally decided to look up the lyrics for this song, 'cause I could never really figure out what the singers were saying. So now I know. And I guess I'm somewhat disappointed that the song is about a man trying to get a woman-Eileen-to sleep with him. I guess that's what it's about. I hope they ended up getting married afterwards. [semi-snark]

Actually, I think that it's not the words but the tune that made "Come On Eileen" a hit. I like how the recording starts off with some brief notes that sound traditional to me. And I also like how it changes to a slower tempo toward the end and then speeds up again. For whatever reason/s, that song works for me. Here's a comment that agrees with me from one of several YouTube videos of that song:

"this song is so amazing and addicting! i keep playing it over and over!"-littlemisschilepeper, April 19, 2008.

Here's the link to that YouTube video that has had 1,237,736 viewers since it was posted in November 2006.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7z9bPrUark4

Also, here's a link to the lyrics for that song: http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/lyrics/come_on_eileen.html




Here's the
Other people
Dexys Midnight Runners - Come On Eileen (

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:26 AM

But just for clarity, Dexy's were an English band.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:32 AM

"the song is about a man trying to get a woman-Eileen-to sleep with him. I guess that's what it's about. I hope they ended up getting married afterwards."

You've just described 3/4 of the folk canon - ESPECIALLY if the bloke doesn't stick around.

If you'd lived in the UK for the past couple of decades and attended enough weddings, I can promise you that you'd be well over that song - and the ridiculous, drunken attempts at jigging which inevitably accompany it.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

.........it's a pop song.........wot the masses like!

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

Sorry for that gooblygook at the end of my last post {Starting with Here's the other people. If a moderator can remove it, great. If not, that gooblygood stays as a testimony to the fact that I need to preview my posts better.

**

Thanks, Mr. Happy for that information!

So I suppose those beginning notes are also traditional to Irish music?

Also, does that "toora loo rye aye" phrase mean anything?

**

The song Moses RiTooral-I-Ay {along with a brief explanation} is in the Digital Tradition @displaysong.cfm?SongID=4035

**

Also, here's a Mudcat thread on that Moses Ri-Tooral-I-Ay song:

thread.cfm?threadid=71083
"Origins: Moses Ri-Tooral-I-Ay"

There are two post by MartinRyan in that thread that I want to especially call folks attention to:

Subject: RE: Origins: Moses Ri-Tooral-I-Ay
From: MartinRyan - PM
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 03:45 PM

Written by Brian O'Higgins some time before 1907. I've just been reading the earliest copy of it in the Irish Traditional Music Archive. I'll get back with details

**


MartinRyan - PM
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:37 AM

Brian O'Higgins (who wrote under the name Brian na Banban i.e. Brian of Ireland) published a booklet of poems and songs in 1907 under the title "The Voice of Banba; Songs and Recitations for Young Ireland". In a frontispiece, he mentions that some of the pieces had been published a few years earlier in a short-run booklet (the title escapes me). I suspect that Moses Ritooralalooralalay was one of those. It was extremely popular, to the extent that O'Higgins has another song in the same book where the air is given as Moses Ritooralalooralalay"...

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM

I thought that they were a BRITISH band welcome tae Britian Ruth Archer

Tom from SCOTLAND BRITIAN

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_Ra_Loo_Ra_Loo_Ral

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:48 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bUUkHbbTv3s

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:57 AM

Oops, Sorry, if I stepped in it. I'm a Yankee and I admit that I don't know British bands from Irish bands. I'm kinda uncertain whether to use British when I mean English or not. So is what you guys and gals over the pond saying is that this is a British band {English? band} that included a traditional Irish phrase in the song "Come on Eileen"? Did I get that right?

What about the beginning of that song? Is that beginning part traditional Irish?
   
**

Ruth, with regard to the word "jigging" that you used in your 10:32 AM post, what does "jigging" mean? Dancing? Flirting? Men trying to get a feel on {ladies?}

It's interesting that you used that word because in another Mudcat thread last night I put on my arm-chair etymologist hat and asked about another Mudcatters' use of the phrase get jiggy. That exchange begins on that thread here

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 11:00 AM

Its what daft drunks idea of 'oirish' dancing is

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 11:10 AM

Thanks, Mr. Happy, for those links to "Too Ra Loo Ra Loo Ral - Irish Lullabye"

I appreciate that you refreshed my memory about that beautiful song.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 02:50 PM

"Jigging": I meant feigning an Irish jig. The band themselves did some sort of approximation of Irish-ish dancing in the video for the song, and people are still kind of copying it (but only late at night, at weddings. ;) ).

I made the distinction about it being an English band (Weren't they from Birmingham?) because I wanted Azizi to understand that it wasn't "Irish music" at all - at the time I think the band identified their look and use of fiddles as "gypsy", but I've also never met any gypsies who looked like that. Early Bananarama, maybe... Or sounded like that, either.

As someone else has said, it was just a pop song - but a pretty good one, at the end of the day (IMHO). The music is pastiche, the too rye aye doesn't mean anything - but it was fun to dance to.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 03:54 PM

Thanks for that explanation, Ruth! I appreciate you breaking it down for me. :o)

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:17 PM

Reminds me of a joke from that time.
Q. What's worse than roses on your piano?
A. Lipstick on your organ.
Q. What's worse than that?
A. Cum on Eileen.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM

Well, there goes the PG family rating for this thread.

:o(

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Gulliver
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:07 AM

Wikipedia on Kevin Rowland here mentions his Irish ancestry. I believe he also called on an Irish folk-ish girl fiddle group when he made the single. The song is still very popular here in Ireland, especially at clubs for dancing. I've heard it a million times and still like it. ;-))

Don

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:17 AM

Jug of Punch
Toora Loora Loora

Very commonly used in songs, over many years. Some of them are even folk songs too!

G

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,Sean Baite - elsewhere
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:16 AM

Kevin Rowland would possibly baulk at your use of the adjectives 'English' or 'British' regarding him as I believe his Irish origins were/are very important to him. Note that Dexy's first album had as its cover a photo of a young boy recently burned out of his home in the Ardoyne nationalist enclave in North Belfast during one of the pogroms of the early days of the the troubles.
There is also a song on another Dexys LP that speaks of the Troubles - not exactly from an English or British perspective. Can't remember the title but the refrain is 'It all sounded the same'
Fine song, even if I'm not 100% in agreement with the sentiment.
Giok, there's also lots of Toora Looras in 'A Jar of Porter' - I blame lazy lyricists :->

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Gulliver
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:33 AM

There also fal lol da lol lol da lol lol... But I suppose that's something different entirely.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:47 AM

Hadn't heard this song in years. Thanks for the links!

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:10 AM

"Kevin Rowland would possibly baulk at your use of the adjectives 'English' or 'British' regarding him as I believe his Irish origins were/are very important to him."

No offence intended - when I was first married my ex-husband took me on a musical tour of 80s Birmingham: "That's the pub where Duran Duran used to rehearse - that's the abbatoir where UB40 record - there's where Dexy's used to gig..."

I think of them as Brummie band as a result. Didn't they start out doing Northern Soul?

Incidentally, the Two Tone Tour of Coventry was equally illuminating...

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:35 AM

Sometimes English is a foreign language even for grew up speaking it, especially when you get into colloquialisms. For example, "Brummie". What's Brummie?

I decided to find out with a little help from my friend Google. So for any other folks reading this thread who don't know what that word means, here's a quote from a wikipedia page:

"Brummie (sometimes Brummy) is a colloquial term for the inhabitants, accent and dialect of Birmingham, England, as well as being a general adjective used to denote a connection with the city, locally called Brum. The terms are all derived from Brummagem or Bromwichham, historical variants or alternatives to 'Birmingham'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummie

**

And what's "Northern Soul"? Would you site some examples that Americans might know {bands, records}; Duran Duran? UB40?

**
Also, I feel as though I'm tiptoeing in an area that has land mines, but doesn't "British" sometimes also mean "Irish"? I suppose from the comments that I've read in this thread that British doesn't mean Irish with regard to Kevin Rowland. But that isn't always the case, is it?

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM

"British" is more of a geographical term describing the British Isles of which Ireland is one.

Lots of Irish citizens wouldn't consider themselves "British" in the political sense though.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Zen
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:45 AM

but doesn't "British" sometimes also mean "Irish"?

This is a notion probably approached with some caution!

Zen (Irish but taking no offense whatsoever!)

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:50 AM

I've friends from N.Ireland from both sides of the historical divide, the prods consider themselves "British" while the cads feel more Irish.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:52 AM

Azizi, Duran Duran and UB40 were most definitely NOT Northern Soul.

And, whilst all English people are British, not all British people are English! Great Britain is a Union comprising the countries (geographical areas) of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Southern Ireland (aka Eire) is not a member of the Union, although it physically accounts for about 2/3 of the island of Ireland, the other 1/3 being Northern Ireland.

The Scots, Welsh and Irish, very proud of their history and heritage, quite rightly get highly pissed off when Americans refer to the whole of Great Britain as 'England'. It would be rather like us calling Americans 'Canadians' just because the USA and Canada are next to one another. :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for the responses.   

Backwoodsmen, I did know the information that you provided in your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. And I gather that I should be very careful when referring to an Irish person or Irish band as a British band, though they might be British in the geographical sense of the term, they also might not be British in that sense, and even if they are British in the geographical sense of that term, it might not be political to say this. I hasten to say that I absolutely don't take any of this lightly. I understand how important using the correct referent is or may be some times more than others, and for some people more than others.

So...maybe it's best that I just leave that subject right there and hurry on back to that other subject-to wit-I still don't have a clue what Northern Soul means. Must I look it up? I figure hearing it explained by you guys and gals is better than reading what Google says...

Of course, I realize that this is off-topic, so maybe it doesn't deserve any responses in this thread. But then again this is Mudcat, so...???

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

Actually, Azizi, you're probably more familiar with it than you realise. Northern Soul is a variant on American soul music of the 60s, which later became very popular in the north of England.

Dexy's famously covered Van Morrison's song Jackie Wilson Said. When they performed the song on British TV show Top of the Pops, a researcher got it wrong. Instead of projecting an image of black American soul legend Jackie Wilson, they used a giant picture of sweaty Scottish darts player Jocky Wilson behind the band for the duration of the song. Which is very funny.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Thompson
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM

Irish isn't British in the geographical sense either, unless you're including the current administration in Northern Ireland.

Britain includes England, Scotland, Wales and six of the northern counties of the island of Ireland.

It's a bit like calling Canadians or Mexican 'American'. Don't do it.

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 01:30 PM

The British Isles


G

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 02:57 PM

The six counties of Northern Ireland are part of the island of Ireland (but not the Republic of Ireland.) England,Scotland and Wales make up the island of Britain (or Greater Britain as opposed to Lesser Britain,i.e.Brittany). Great(er) Britain and Northern Ireland together make up the United Kingdon of that name. Simple, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:00 PM

very. Now can you explain Northern Soul?

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,Celtic Nations forever
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 03:01 PM

aye and that's why Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are called Regions instead of Nations so in away we in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are just counties of England

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: danensis
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:14 PM

http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~djandyp/nsoul/northern_soul_links.htm

John

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 04:33 PM

Thanks, John for hippin' me to that website. Ruth is right. I guess I do know more about Northern Soul than I thought I did.

Here's the hyperlink for that website:
http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~djandyp/nsoul/northern_soul_links.htm

-snip-

And here's an excerpt from that website's home page for those who don't have broadband which means that visiting other websites is difficult:

"What is Northern Soul I hear you ask? Good question!

Trying to define Northern soul is a tricky business. The term "Northern Soul" is attributed to journalist Dave Godin, who in 1970, coined the phrase to describe a specific type of soul music that was popular in the clubs of northern England during that period. This music came from Black musicians in America, but tended to be commercially unsuccessful there. Instead British collectors came across the often forgotten tunes, and such was the demand to hear them, people would flock to clubs to experience these exclusive sounds. That was much of the charm. Not only was the music superb, it had an exclusive status, a kudos brought about by it being unheard by mainstream society. If you liked this music, you stood out. You were different. You had a feeling of belonging to something very special. That's why I feel Northern Soul is more of a movement or scene rather than a particular genre. It is still going strong today through its ability to adapt and take on differing styles.
Despite beginning in the 1960s in the North of England, Northern Soul's appeal has now spread worldwide, and has lasted over thirty years.

The roots of Northern Soul can be traced back to the 1960s Mods who listened to not only RnB and Ska, but had a particular affection for Black America Soul music. The starting point was in many cases Berry Gordy's Motown label, whose artists like for example, The Supremes, The Temptations, and Marvin Gaye had brought the music to the fore. It was from this initial spark that an interest for rarer releases grew, and soon lesser known artists on obscure labels were held in the same regard. Often commerical flops in the USA, the uptempo beat and fantastic vocals of these records made them highly popular amongst the British Soul fraternity"...

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:51 PM

No, Ruth, I can't - when you're as southern as me anything north of the M4 is strange and frightening............

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,NAVYDAVE
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM

Greetings from Norfolk, Virginia. I just wanted to say that "Come on Eileen" is a timeless classic. I still love it just as much now in 2010 as I did when it first came out. Great song.

I always thought Dexy's Midnight Runner's were an American midwestern band from their coveralls. Are you guys sure they aren't American? They look pretty American to me. Thanks.

Dave

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Chris Green
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:17 PM

I was talking a while ago to one of the guys who played fiddle on 'Come On Eileen'. He was a student at Birmingham College of Music at the time and got offered a choice between taking a rate of £40 for the session (not bad for 1982!) or a percentage of royalties. He took the session fee and has been kicking himself ever since. C'est la vie (as B-Witched so wisely said...)

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST,qtwf
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 07:22 PM

Sorry - I can't resist it!

I've been working with a Mexican girl for the past year. She does consider herself American - or kind of!

Her explanation is that America isn't a country, it's a continent, with a bunch of countrys in it. One of which is the United States Of, but it's by no means the only American Country.

Then she laughed a lot and said it was far more important to her to be Mexican!

Sorry about that.

qtwf

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 08:25 PM

"I always thought Dexy's Midnight Runner's were an American midwestern band from their coveralls. Are you guys sure they aren't American? They look pretty American to me. Thanks."

Nope. Absolutely not. British as they come.

Sorry.

Subject: RE: Origin: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 10 - 12:21 AM

Hilarious threads to read!!!! Just have to say the song rocks and its sad they didn't have another success like it in the US!! I hear it at least once a day on the radio here!! I crank it up!!

Subject: RE: Origin: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Jos
Date: 15 May 10 - 04:49 AM

I always found it very frustrating when it was played on the radio without the fiddle intro, which I thought was the best bit.

Subject: RE: Origin: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 May 10 - 06:09 AM

Subject: RE: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Ruth Archer - PM
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 12:58 PM

...Dexy's famously covered Van Morrison's song Jackie Wilson Said. When they performed the song on British TV show Top of the Pops, a researcher got it wrong. Instead of projecting an image of black American soul legend Jackie Wilson, they used a giant picture of sweaty Scottish darts player Jocky Wilson behind the band for the duration of the song. Which is very funny.

it was in fact very funny, but the "researcher getting it wrong" is unfortunately a longstanding urban myth, laid to rest many years later by Kevin Rowland himself, who admitted that he had specifically requested a picture of Jocky Wilson, as a kind of "in-joke".

Subject: RE: Origin: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 03:21 PM

Just to correct an oft-held misunderstanding

'Great Britain' is the island on the right - Ireland is the one on the left

The 'United Kingdom' is Great Britain AND Northern Ireland (so even the 6 counties aren't part of 'Britain' but part of the UK (that also applies to the Isle of Man and Chanmnel Islands)

Subject: RE: Origin: Come On Eileen-Toora Loo Rye Aye
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 04:46 PM

"Guest Jim" from back then - many thanks; I've murdered the punchline for years, but could never remember the joke!