Pop Goes The Folk Singer

Subject: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:39 PM

As I've said, here, in England and beyond, we are hearing on the air-waves more-and-more over-accompanied, unearthy, belted-out folk singing (even on this England's National Day!), when, to me, quality traditional English-folk sounds at least as good as American pop/rock...and, more importantly, it's OUR OWN.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

England is, along with many other lands, Americanising, and I don't like it - and neither should the American citizens who, themselves, love the world being multicultural. Another sad example is non-Americans singing with a phoney American-accent. (As well as performing folk/rock, some members of The Beatles have even tried talking with an American accent!)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:39 PM

Would you please explain what an 'American' accent is? It might be easier to explain what a 'British' accent is, no?


A Georgia accent is a far cry from a Boston one, just like Londoners don't speak like Brummies.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

And there are few of us who can't tell the difference between a British and an American, whatever regional accent either might have. Mock accents of any kind are rather ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:45 PM

Then there is THIS American who is slowly learning to tell the difference between British accents! LOL

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:52 PM

I said, Sorcha, "an (not THE) American accent"...some also refer to a mid-Atlantic accent, yes?...surely you know what I mean. As for "British," I believe in the English nation and the United Nations, with eco-travel and fair-trade between them.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:55 PM

Actually, no, I don't know what you mean. Euclidate. There's LOTS of American accents. Which one do you mean?????

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

I do believe we've seen this tired old scenario before in quite a few threads. Maybe instead of posting the instigator of this particular thread should perhaps get out there and do something about the problem as he sees it. So you don't like this perceived 'Americanisation' of others culture, some people don't have a problem with it, and it's not going to go away in a big hurry.

Personally I don't have a thing against 'folk-rock', I do believe that was the label given to the likes of Fairport Convention et al, and...umm..dare I say this, the source of one of the songs on Liege & Lief isn't even British, it is, I believe, The Appalachian Mountains version of the tale, I refer to Matty Groves. Isidious isn't it how those Americans creep into British culture? *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:53 PM

We should go back to the policy of the Ballad and Blues CLub, often wrongly attributed to Ewan McColl.

"If you were singing from the stage, you sang in a language that you could speak and understand. It didn't matter what you sang in the shower, at parties, while you were ironing or making love. But on stage in The Ballads and Blues Folk Club, you were a representative of a culture - you were interpreting a song that had been created within certain social and artistic parameters."

I think that covers it!!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Escapee
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:49 AM

In my experience, the difference between folk and folk-rock is the difference between playing at home and a gig. Even popularized folk music exposes people to folk music. Even when it's less than ideal, it's good to have the music being performed. A mutilated song can recover. A forgotten song is dead.
SKP

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:27 AM

It's when they start singing them in Australian accents that you've really got to worry.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:30 AM

I agree to some extent, Viper, and as a repat. (rather than a visitor) from Australia, I've done some work on my pronunciation by, wait for it, listening carefully to two Geordie ex-runners when the athletics is on!
I agree with Folkiedave - except I'd drop "the Blues" as that is another American genre.
To Sorcha...what more can I say?!
To Mole. - is it not sad that the most influential folk album (as voted by BBC listeners) is, as you say, NOT a folk album at all; English traditional music should, again, be compulsory in English schools...a lot just don't know how enjoyable/entertaining it can be.
And I'd like to think that I do indeed "get out there and do something about the problem as he sees it" by participation in festival and club singarounds etc., and have been, just last night e.g., quoted on interactive TV on such matters.
To all - another sad similar case: English Christians worshipping with drum kits, electric guitars, Belgian saxaphones, etc. instead of the olde organ or unaccompanied hymns.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:40 AM

The Beatles spent a lot of time in America, were influenced by a lot of American music so is it not unexpected that they may slip into the accent a bit?

I couldnt think of a worse way to promote English Folk Music than having enforced singarounds in schools - although that is just my opinion!!! On the other hand, I suppose replacing the usual orchestra stuff with a few folk tunes wouldnt go amiss.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:47 AM

I couldnt think of a worse way to promote English Folk Music than having enforced singarounds in schools

Best to ban it; then it will really take off.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:51 AM

Drop the blues? I think one of the beauties of music is that you can take it and make it your own, which is what had been done to the blues in Britain.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:52 AM

"Best to ban it; then it will really take off."

ASBOs for Morris Dancers. Again.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

No, Joe - freedom of the cities for Morris and Rapper Dancers!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:09 AM

The Americanisation of British culture has been going on since the 1920s/30s and perhaps before. This is probably because American culture is perceived to be fresh, new and exciting. And let's face it, American culture has given much to the world: Jazz, mainstream cinema, Science Fiction, The Simpsons etc., etc. Unfortunately, they tend to export the worst and seediest aspects of their culture: Fast Food, Rap Music, Drugs 'n Guns etc.

I've also thought that (British) Folk and Rock don't go particularly well together (a bit like liver and strawberry!). And let's dispel the old myth that the Folk Rockers brought lots of people into Folk Music. Perhaps they brought a few but a lot of the ones I meet never seem to have got beyond the stage of thinking that "Steeleye Span wrote 'All Around my Hat'"!

I suppose the thing that dismays me more than the Folk Rock thing is that British policy makers now seem to be incapable of coming up with homegrown policies. Every initiative seems to be a straight copy of an American one. For example, I am the Chair of a local 'Friends of Parks' group but then I discover that the whole 'Friends of Parks' thing is an American idea. And just the other day I spotted a yellow school bus outside my local Primary school (in Manchester) ... I'm sure that there many, many more examples.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:33 AM

Most of the pejoratised Folk Rockers were in fact folkies of some sort anyway. I seem to remember Martin Carthy in Steeleye Span, for instance!

And Steeleye Span (and Mike Batt) effectively DID write "All Around my Hat", as it's a conflation of at least two totally different songs and maybe a third tune. They did a similar trick with "The Weaver and the Factory Maid". As did Nic Jones, Swarb, Mr. Carthy, Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, Uncle Tom Cobley etc.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:46 AM

...Maddy Prior sounds great unaccompanied.
When it comes to American music, I'd genuinely rather listen to the (rarely if ever played by the BBC) chants, drums, and pipes of Amerindians - such as those on my Top Friends.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

with friends like you Dave..........

WHY do you feel the need to slag off other peoples approach to folkmusic?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Silver Slug
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

I'd rather listen to "more-and-more over-accompanied, unearthy, belted-out folk singing" than listen to the (rarely if ever played by the BBC, thank the gods) chants, drums, and pipes of Amerindians. The BBC don't play it because they would end up catering for an audience of one, i.e. you!

I do like to listen to melodies that appeal and lyrics of which I can make sense and if I get the two together then I couldn't give a toss about what accent they are delivered in!

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:23 AM

To SS - you've put bits of quotes together in an odd way...see above.
I answered that above, Weelittledrummer - I do love the world being multiculural, some American pop/rock performeres ARE good/enjoyable musicians but, overall, this Englishman really does prefer Amerindian music.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:36 AM

Would that be accompanied by the UN to ensure that any cultural boundaries are observed and not crossed?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:44 AM

weelittledrummer

WHY do you feel the need to slag off other peoples approach to folkmusic?

A very good question, WLD, a very good question indeed.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:59 AM

What you NEVER grasp about me Sarcastic Monsieur Snail. Is that I respect creative endeavour.

I have many friends who make folkmusic in the tradtional vein. Indeed inthe early part of my career I was encoraged and helped in my songwriting by Ewan himself.

I never had at any point had any time for the people who catcalled fred Jordan when he was in a folk package tour with Bert Jansch (who was getting the star treatment at the time).

What really pisses me off is the colossal power that resides in the middle class hands of the traddy gang at this time in history. It starts with the harmless affectation of prats who want to think themselves superior to the common herd. It finishes with the xclusion of the finest voice in English folk music at the moment from the airwaves. Namely - Jack Hudson. His voice is the equal in power timbre and beauty to Fred, and he has given his life to the folkscene.

And the way you lot disregard him is a bloody disgrace.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

Good English folk-timbres: Jim Causely, Martin Carthy, Damien Barber...(several females) Bella Hardy, Ruth Knotman, Jackie Oates, Maddy...

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:50 AM

weelittledrummer

What really pisses me off is the colossal power that resides in the middle class hands of the traddy gang at this time in history.

Gosh, I wish I had power like that but I suppose that being the son of a farm labourer and growing up in tied cottages excludes me.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:51 AM

While I don't want to contribute to the main argument on Americanisation; it's a lost cause here in Australia, too, I have seen US authors deploring the loss of American regional accents, and probably it's occurring in places where other languages are spoken, as a concomitant of the saturation coverage of TV, Radio and Movies.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 10:08 AM

...and school, Guest - in Aus., long before I repatriated, we learnt American Square Dancing, in the suburbs of an ever-Americanising Sydney...but, to be fair, as I've said in verse, we did also get a good introduction to Aboriginal culture at my schools.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:35 PM

If it wasn't for the America all your precious English Culture would have been assimilated by the Third Reich long ago. And wasn't the Baby Boomer folk revival fuelled by an initial passion for skiffling & Dylan & suchlike Americana leading to an appreciation of things closer to home?

The tradition of English folk song extends to wherever they sing English folk songs - which must include America & Australia where such things thrive unabated as they always have done.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM

'Tis a complex issue, CV (there was also RVW, Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, etc.) - one thing I'm very sure of: the future will be better if the UN/UNESCO becomes a lot stronger.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:19 PM

Walkaboutsverse, how does RVW relate to the "baby boomer folk revival"? And I suggest you familiarise yourself a bit more with Bert Lloyd's collecting and history.

And Sharp's collecting in Appalachia.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:27 PM

I said, Ruth - "there was ALSO" and "etc." Percy Grainger was another...(You think as babies boomed it was folk-year-zero?!)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Confrontation Viper
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:51 PM

What's the UN/UNESCO got to do with anything?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:05 PM

To combat globalisation/encourage a nice multicultural world (including trad English culture) in a peaceful way, CV.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:08 PM

WAV, your name-checking of collectors doesn't actually seem to refer to anything. Remind me if you had a point?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:09 PM

As long as there's no cultural integration or immigration, right, WAV?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Peter Beta
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:10 PM

Ah, live and let live. Those that can, do....

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

1: Factors other than skiffle, Ruth; and, 2, there should be eco-travel, fair-trade and understanding between the nations, via the UN, in order to "live and let live" (Peter Beta).

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:42 PM

If you don't like American folk music, Walkabout, why are you posting on an American Folk Music forum?

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:06 PM

Ummmm...skiffle...well I'm MUCH too young to remember skiffle, but I love the music none-the-less, same as I love folk, same as I love gospel, the list goes on, and you know, the nationality of the music doesn't matter one iota to me, heck I'm a walking United Nations, one quarter Welsh, one quarter Scots and half North American Aboriginal. No Borders as far s I'm concerned...oh except racism and racists, I detest it and them.

Cultural integration...no problem!

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

I never said that M.Ted - I said, rather, I don't like English, Swedish, Irish etc. going all American with their performances; AND that American citizens who, themselves, love our world being multicultural should not like it either. (The late great Eva Cassidy, e.g., is also on my Top Friends!)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:27 PM

"2, there should be eco-travel, fair-trade and understanding between the nations"

BUT no cultural integration or immigration. Right?


RVW and Percy Grainger were an alternative to skiffle? Okaaaaay...

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM

"To Mole. - is it not sad that the most influential folk album (as voted by BBC listeners) is, as you say, NOT a folk album at all;"

Funny, that's NOT what I said at all. What I, infact, said was that one of the tracks on Liege & Lief isn't even British...oh and Liege & Lief not being folk...folk rock is what I said, and I LOVE the album, so please don't put words in my mouth to make it appear I agree with you, because I don't, so please get used to that.

'WAV, your name-checking of collectors doesn't actually seem to refer to anything. Remind me if you had a point? '

Ruth I've generally found that WAV's threads tend to be none too thinly disguised infomercials for his poetry website and his Mysapace space. :-)

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WlkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:52 PM

Yes, M.: you said folk-rock NOT folk, and I agreed - it's not a folk-album...it may be the most influential folk-rock album ever...?..nomenclature...What influenced me a lot was a tape I purchased just after first turning up at a folk club 4 years ago - Voices: English traditional songs - full of good unaccompanied earthy in-tune folk-singing.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:01 PM

Charlotte: oh yeah. But I Walkabout right on by that particular car crash. :)

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM

sorry..your jingoism is starting to drive me up a wall. Ruth Archer, at least is working towards keeping the tradition alive with her work, you..you simply spout phrases and ideas that were out-dated a very long time ago , so very Daily Mail and cosy "more tea, vicar?".

As Ruth said....'As long as there's no cultural integration or immigration, right, WAV?'

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:12 PM

Yes, multiculturalism as long as it stays away from MY culture.

Subject: RE: Pop Goes The Folk Singer
From: GUEST,WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM

By practising your culture, Volgadon, whilst appreciating others you help keep the world nice and multicultural.