A 'no PA' festival

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 07:42 AM

Pardon?

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

We live in a world that is full of ambient noise, and, whatever you may prefer, the audiences prefer that their entertainment be loud enough to carry over it. Eliminating the PA is the best idea yet for killing off folk music for good. Good work, Mr. Red.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:47 AM

Danensis

'To Alan Surtees I would just say that I have been doing PA longer than he has been doing festivals'.

This might be the case but Alan has been going to folk festivals for more than 30 years and has never seen you doing a PA.

'I would have thought that the most obtuse of organisers would realise that when the audience desert the venue, and sit on the grass outside because its the first place where the sound levels are tolerable, the sound levels are too high'.

The marquee was almost always full – if you mean when Paul Brady was performing then I can tell you that people left the marquee because they didn't like him not because of the volume. The loudest performers where the Peatbog Faeries and Bellowhead - the marquee was completely full when they were performing and we had to turn people away.

'I go to Shrewsbury because I enjoy the music. However when it is at levels that are likely to damage my hearing, and that of many of the audience, I find an attitude like that of the Surtees incomprehensible. Perhaps if he climbed out of his ivory tower and talked to some of the people in the audience he would realise what was happening. Just because people keep buying tickets (and lining the organiser's pockets) is no reason to be complacent'.

Our volume levels have never exceeded limits set by Environmental Health. In fact our sound levels could be much higher – we are always well under the limit. As for ivory tower (what a joke) perhaps you should check out wikipedia for the meaning. And as for lining the organisers pocket let me tell you that Alan Surtees has always been an unpaid volunteer and in the past has put his own money into the event (not to mention blood, sweat and tears). I am the only paid administrator. I (in my opinion) am not paid nearly enough for the hours I do (it is more than full time). As I am Alan's wife some would say he benefits financially but if you add up all the hours that Alan and I do together then it's a bloody pittance.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

MTed suggests that not using a PA system will kill off folk music.Now, a lot of these discussions are based on hypotheses and guess-work. But on this topic, at least, we have incontrovertible evidence. All documented cultures up to 1900AD had their own folk music. Therefore, not having a PA does not kill off folk music. Sorry, M Ted, you are 100% totally wrong on this point.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:18 AM

I had forgotten that fact, Mr. Stephens, and I thank you for setting me right on it. And though you are right about all the documented cultures up to 1900AD having their own folk music, many of the undocumented cultures simply nicked the folk music of others, and got by with it because they were "off the books". A sad fact.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:37 AM

The Florida Folk Festival, which has been going on since 1951, has always had a mix of amplified and unamplified stages. They currently have 14 stages, about half of which are unamplified. Though it's primarilly an outdoor festival, there are many buildings on the grounds and the unamplified stages are mainly situated indoors. The performers at the unamplified stages are mainly unpaid amateurs, while the paid professionals play at the amplified stages.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: GUEST,Alan Surtees
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:54 AM

This thread is now going round in circles. I rather admire Mr Reds mischeivous start:

is this a trend, a backlash, a divide?

It is plainly none of those things. Some people love events without PA and some love like them with. PA's have been in use for decades, it is the accepted way to provide balanced sound in big venues. There's nothing new and if you don't like amplification no one is forcing you to attend an event where it is used. It's your choice, but it will restrict the number of events you attend. I enjoy both and so I'm happy in either environment. The two most vehement PA protestors on this thread will obviously avoid festivals using PA. I will miss Mr Red at Warwick and Bromyard. Graham Bradshaw provides the PA at both of these festivals, as he does for Shrewsbury. Graham will testify that I have never asked him to turn the wick up at Shrewsbury. I leave the sound to one of the best engineers in the folk world.

So lets drop this subject and get on with enjoying what we choose to enjoy without subjecting those who have different views to insult and derision.

I hope Danensis found his "Alternative to Shrewsbury" he is going to need it.

All the Best

Alan

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 09:56 AM

Graham Bradshaw, of course, is a consummate professional and knows what he's talking about. He's done the sound for Middlewich for years and it's never less than excellent.

I think the old Crewe & Nantwich Festival had it right. There was usually a note in their festival programme to the effect that PA systems were used for the purposes of sound enhancement rather than amplification and they urged people to keep quiet during performances (incidentally, just why do people pay good money to hear a performance and then talk right through it? One of life's mysteries, I suppose).

A good PA operator can work wonders in terms of balancing instruments and voices against each other. A bad PA operator can ruin everything.
That said, if an act can be heard clearly without PA and the acoustics are right, why not?

But I don't think that not using PA is somehow 'better' than using it.
It's a tool of the trade, pure and simple, and should be used where appropriate.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: GUEST,Sandra
Date: 30 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM

Just to set the record right - there are 6 venues without PA at Shrewsbury and 4 with.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:24 PM

Graham Bradshaw - it is there for all to check against your assertion:
You were extolling the virtues of No PA festivals, and suggesting that wouldn't it be so much better if they were all like this.

The original post says nothing for or against PA, let alone any opinion on all festivals. Read again.

It more than suggests that the organisers want a "no PA festival" & quotes them, it says they are (IMHO) more than capable of presenting same.
It also suggests there are punters who want it, alludes to those who feel otherwise, and opines that this is a trend.

But as we have found on various threads. It is easy to assume what people have written (especially if you have an agenda) and criticise them for your assumptions but your argument can fall down very publically under inspection.

Had I been indistinct or not thought about how I worded the post there would be a case for culpability but I submit not. I know why I posted. It was to give publicity to a festival and is talking to those that are interested. No points scored, no evidence thereof, not in my original post. Plenty thereafter from all agendas.

Graham - it is unworthy of you to be so hasty, your normal gravitas has ebbed away temporarilly.

But then, closed minds ......................

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 08 - 01:40 PM

Ooer Mischief. Is it mischief to publicise a festival? I think not. Dogs with bones was ever appropriate. The evidence is above.

We have enough threads on Festivals run by very active posters this was one on behalf of the quiet people. And look what happened.

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 May 08 - 05:22 PM

Well, we've had punters' views of Shrewsbury, and the organisers'. So if I remember, I will return to this later in the year and give the performer's view as well.I am playing at Shrewsbury, and I gather I will be playing in a big marquee with PA, and in a little one without.So I should be able to give a nicely balanced view.
   I have every confidence that both occasions will be equally goodfun!

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:37 AM

So did anyone have ringing ears from the concerts at Upton Fest?

Sal

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: mandotim
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:31 AM

Don't know about Upton, but thanks to Graham, Laurence and Alistair for some great PA work at Moor and Coast. Clear, distinct sound, no excessive volume and unobtrusive work switching the stage over between acts. Well done guys!
Tim

Subject: RE: A 'no PA' festival
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 09 May 08 - 08:42 AM

More more!

Sal