Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:21 PM

If I hear shoestring one more time, somebody is going to get throttled with it......

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:28 PM

'So you, latter, two are the superiors of one who has achieved 4 technical certificates, a degree in humanities, travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has placed in folk-festival competitions, has played A-grade junior football and tennis...who's deluding themself?'

And so it was that, at last, the true WAV appeared, in all his glory.

I note that you lack a degree of any sort in music...hmmmm so I must have been wasting my time when acquiring a degree in keyboard and composition and my current studies in voice, oh and did I mention I give piano lessons?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Okay, Volgadon - cheaply/on a budget/catching night trains while using a Eurail pass/riding on the top of coaches/staying in low-rent rooms among the people...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:34 PM

"So you, latter, two are the superiors of one who has achieved 4 technical certificates, a degree in humanities, travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has placed in folk-festival competitions, has played A-grade junior football and tennis...who's deluding themself?"

Yes. Your posts often make no sense and are full of grammatical errors or misplaced punctuation (as above). Most of all your posts are full of erroneous information. Your self-promotion of both your poetry and your politics is incredibly arrogant and misguided considering both are so badly thought through. Make no doubt about it - you are the one who is deluding himself.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:36 PM

"If I hear shoestring one more time, somebody is going to get throttled with it...... "

Me thinks Mr. W.A.V. Shoe-String B.S (hyphenated to be veddy veddy English) protesteth way too much and dwelleth far too much on his over-seas excursions...Wait a sec, isn't that what the Victorians used to do, go visiting in the colonies, and then return to regale their fellow club members with travellers tales...hmmm now why oh why is Michael Palin's series Ripping Yarns coming to mind? *LOL*

Charloote R - an exotic in the colonies, awaiting the arrival of the great white father ;-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:48 PM

Catching night trains with a eurail pass, oh, exciting.....
Have you lived in any of those 40 countries and would you?
Just travelling is quite a different experience.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Just for the Hell of it, take a look at the notes on accompaniment in "The Singing Island" MacColl-Seeger and in the "Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, " Vaughan Williams - LLoyd - Tom

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:56 PM

travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries

They say travel broadens the mind, so where did we go wrong with you I wonder?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:01 PM

As I've said, CR, I hate imperialism - whether it's Victorian, Nazi, or any other.
I've only "lived", Volgadon, in Australia and England...it's here.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:08 PM

'As I've said, CR, I hate imperialism - whether it's Victorian, Nazi, or any other.'

Now why oh why don't I believe you...all your badly written and spelled postings scream othewise, oh pompous one. Enough is enough I've entertained ya nonsense for far too long. I see what you are and the sort of world you would have people live in and the imaginary world you dwell in, and it disgusts me beyond all my senses.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:40 PM

Having honestly tried here to provide you with insights rather insults to this point, WAV, I am going to change my direction a bit, and tell you straight out that you *are* among people who are who are superior to you--as musicians, performers, composers, folklorists, collectors, researchers, et al.

I am no one of particular consequence here, but I am a both a musician and composer/arranger, and I've accompanied a variety of "source" performers, and helped ethnomusicologists, collectors, and dance ethnographers to recreate music that respected the traditions that they worked with, taught, and generally had fun with this stuff for many years. I've heard all sides, and more than occasionally got caught in between, and there are more and better than me here--

There is an opportunity to learn a lot here, if can stomach the fact that folks like Dick Miles and Jack Campin(among many others) know a lot that you don't--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:47 AM

And sadly, even I know more about Music Theory and Practice, from what you have demonstrated - and I am only too happy to admit that I have not 'specialised' in the 'Folk Area' like Dick & Jack, and many others here. I now know that I know far less than I thought I did when I was younger... :-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:40 AM

Credit were it's due, WAV is getting a right kicking here, but he's sticking with it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:31 AM

As you can see from ' his own ' WalkaboutsVerse thread, he takes delight in himself by spouting more complete and utter rubbish, drivel, crap and total pointless [ well you can't even call it verse ] than anyone has ever done on the Mudcat before.

eric

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:32 AM

Well, WAV, speaking as someone who has both travelled and lived in several countries, I would be far more impressed if you have lived anywhere outside of England and Australia. Travelling and living somewhere are two very different things.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:38 AM

WAV, I don't know how else to explain what I mean. If several singers sing an A, they are either singing the same A (eg the one below middle C, which I can sing although it's towards the lower end of my range, and so can a male tenor at the top of his range) or they're singing different As which will be one or more octaves apart. If they're not at octave intervals they're not both As. The voices (all on A) will sound different and distinguishable because of their natural timbres, but that doesn't make it harmony.

And if you're still having trouble with this concept, you're really a bit out of your depth. I don't see how you can have strong opinions on harmony if you don't know it when you hear it. Banging on about your degree and your travel experience doesn't really help - many of us in the folk world have good degrees and other high-level skills and qualifications, but we don't regard it as relevant to our discussions.

In this forum there are some extremely knowledgable musicologists, scholars and experts in traditional music. There are also some well respected professional performers. Although I know quite a bit about music and do perform in front of others, I don't belong to either of these categories - and neither, plainly, do you. A little more humility would help to prevent you alienating people who could be useful and supportive to you. The folk world is very forgiving and inclusive, but there are limits to people's tolerance.

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:41 AM

A quick look at WAVs history indicates that he only ever contributes to his own threads, very strange ?

eric

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:30 AM

I noticed the Young'Uns thread and posted my support a few days ago, Eric.
I admitted I know little of harmony technique, and said I would add "mostly" to my atop definition/conclusion, Marje, yet you accuse me of lack of humility; also, I only mentioned my CV upon belittlement - that's when the majority would defend themselves with their record. And, most importantly, the main issue was NOT about how harmony and chords work, but their use or lack of use in (English, e.g.) folk music. So how about all who read this taking a few moments to look up folk music in your encyclopedias, and post anything they find on melody/tune, chords/harmony - and have the "humility" to do so even if it goes against what they have argued on this thread; I shall repost what I found -
"Folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).
(And is it not the case that such encyclopedias consult these experts in their field that several of you mentioned above....or why have encyclopedias?)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:45 AM

WAV - the experts in the field are here (although I do not claim to be one of them), people who have devoted a huge proportion of their lives to the study of folk music. Some have many music related qualifications, some are professional performers of traditional music. Who can be more qualified than that?

Whilst you have led a fairly unusual lifestyle, this, along your extremely brief involvement with the folk world does not qualify you to dictate to those who are far more educated in this field than you.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 06:08 AM

Encyclopedias often consult other encyclopedias, they don't always undertake in-depth research, so I wouldn't trust their assumptions further than I can throw them.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 06:10 AM

I should add that encyclopedias are meant for a quick reference, at a glance, if you will.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 May 08 - 06:23 AM

I only mentioned my CV upon belittlement

What you took as belittlement I meant as encouragement. No matter what your qualifications, there is always much to be learnt and much pleasure to be had in the process of learing it. Conclusions are dead ends; definitions likewise, especially for something as essentially undefinable as Folk Music. One would have thought your academic training would have taught you the fundamentals of empirical research so essential to all life's experiences! The more I learn, the less I know. One day, I hope to know nothing at all, but the process of learning only stops at death.

I wonder what use encyclopaedias are for other than taking up much needed book-shelf space & offering very basic & superficial reference. At least Wikipedia is interactive, WAV - see what that has to say about Folk Music - you can always edit out the bits you don't like! But remember - i) always reference your sources, and ii) me doesn't count!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:12 AM

Superficial, that's the right word.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 08:22 AM

While WalkaboutsVerse is an attention seeking clown who writes terrible poetry, is an appalling recorder player and singer and is completely out of his depth when it comes to elementary music theory, does it occur to anyone that his opening post for this thread is basically right?

For the most part, English vernacular music before the first half of the nineteenth century was melodic in nature. (I call it vernacular because folk music didn't exist before 1954.) There is some evidence of part playing, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Singing was largely unaccompanied solo and dance music manuscripts from the period rarely give anything but a melody line.

The melodeon, which seems such a fundamental part of English traditional music, is a German invention and the anglo concertina derives from the German concertina invented by Uhlig of Chemnitz. Multiculturalism strikes again. The guitar only came into "folk" music in any big way during the twentieth century, probably from America.

Just because WalkaboutsVerse said it, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:38 AM

"Folk music didn't exist before 1954", The Snail?...The English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS), e.g., goes back a tad further than that.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:42 AM

Everything about it can and has been argued against, from the idea that there is an overarching "English Folk Music" on--

As to part playing, if there was evidence of part playing, there was part playing--you can't rule it out just because it wasn't written out--even classical music of certain periods was written with the understanding that chordal accompaniments would be improvised, and often by a group of musicians. And folk musicians, now as always, work without written parts-

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:50 AM

oh christ,not the 1954 definition
.WAV watch out you could be here until 2023.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:55 AM

M Ted

Those of us who have 'looked at' Medieval & Ren music, know about 'The Ground'... a tradition which had not died out, even by those playing later ages of music...

Just ask any folkie 'accompanying' others - that vampy stuff we play basically still meets the definition... :-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:05 AM

WalkaboutsVerse

"Folk music didn't exist before 1954", The Snail?...

In order to be called folk music, it has to conform to the definition laid down at the International Folklore Conference in Sao Paulo in 1954. Logically therefore, no music before that date can be called folk music.

M.Ted, would you like to reread my post and try again?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:11 AM

Just because WalkaboutsVerse said it, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

It's not what he says that's the problem, rather the way he says it, turning a basic notion of universal musical practise - i.e. vernacular monophonic modality - into part of an absolutist cultural manifesto, wherein all things serve a central agenda of an ethnically cleansed English National Culture.

There is no right here, but there are plenty of wrongs, along with any amount of opinions on what might have been and why that might have been the case. All of which is very interesting of course, but about the only thing we can prove is that there are no rules, and that whatever we might think about something, there'll always be someone else thinking about it differently.

He has a right to say such things; but in so doing people have a right to advise him how seriously off the mark he is - not out of any personal malice (for example, I would never offer the sort of critical damnation of his work as you do in your opening sentence!) but in the hope that he might take some of it on board and see the error of his ways - not just in his thinking about Folk Music, but his whole self-published & self-publicised philosophy of life.   

Given that, I think Mudcat gives him a very fair hearing indeed.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:18 AM

That's silly, Snail. It's like saying there was no anthracite in the ground because no-one defined anthracite--the word--before 1900.

Lots of music, going back thousands of years, probably conforms to your definition. They didn't know it, though!!




A

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:28 AM

Yeah! And what about Martin Carthy huh?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:31 AM

Yes, Sedayne, initially "self-published" using Serif Desktop Publishing and FrontPage - but in several places since: poems in The Evening Chronicle, The NE Poetry Journal, etc.; and some of my prose has been quoted on interactive segments of the ITV local news. (All as an amateur, thus far - apart from free drinks and entry, a few times).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:31 AM

Amos

That's silly, Snail.

So it's true! Americans don't do irony.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:56 AM

To Stigweard - I like it when MC includes the melody in his finger-picking, and I'd like it even more if he played the English cittern...has he?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:19 AM

I have no idea, but you might not want to ask me as I play accompaniment on Irish bouzouki - I must be an anathema to everything you believe about folk music.

Plus I'm not Irish but Welsh/English and love Irish music bestest, and think the Watersonsand Planxty are gods, and also think the stagnation of any tradition will kill it.

However, we all love an underdog and I have a sneaking admiration for people who plow their own furrow in the face of overwhelming opposition, so stick with it son.

It's music - we should just play what we love how we want to.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:28 AM

WAV - try google but I couldnt find anything.

Of the Cittern-

'The tuning and narrow range allow the player a number of simple chord shapes useful for both simple song accompaniment and dances'

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:29 AM

Here we go again "son", Stigweard!...must you delude yourself?...have you ever seen a "sunshine", CR, above, a "son", or any suchlike from me. And the bouziki, as seen at the Athens Olympics, is a Greek - NOT an Irish - instrument.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:40 AM

From The Renaissance Cittern Site

In some ways it could be said to resemble a "Renaissance banjo."

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:49 AM

Just offering my support!

My bouzouki is an Irish one (although made in England).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:53 AM

However, we all love an underdog and I have a sneaking admiration for people who plow their own furrow in the face of overwhelming opposition, so stick with it son.
I love flat earthers too.
most singers perform better when they dont have to accompany themselves,they can concentrate on one thing.
when I do a gig,I sing a few songs unaccompanied,a few with Guitar,and some with Concertina,this provides contrast,I also consider subject material,vary keys and tempos etc,but I do use chords and harmony.
knowing when to use and when not to is important,but not to use harmony as some sort of principle is laughable.
but we all love eccentricity,so WAV how about forming a society.poets against chords and harmony in folksongs.PACAHIF.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:01 PM

Did anyone bother checking their enyclopedia(s)?...or would opening one be too eccentric, these days, CB? Once more, what I found...
"Folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).
(And is it not the case that such encyclopedias consult these experts in their field that several of you mentioned above....or why have encyclopedias?)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:31 PM

no, they[your encyclopaedia definitions are a lot of baloney],believe me,I have been singing folksongs,for fifty years.
folk music can be harmonic as well as melodic,different traditions vary.
the traditions of England scotland wales Ireland use mainly four modes.the dorian,Mixolydian Aeolian Ionian,most of these tunes are suited to harmony,sometimes they are fitted tastefully by leaving out the major or minor third,but with that consideration in mind they are still suited to harmony or chords.
the traditional flamenco music uses different modes,that are suited by flamenco guitar,but it is still harmony.
go out and listen to some harmony groups like the Wilson/OR Copper families.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Sometimes I wish for the old days, when these issues could be settled simply, with a straight razor or a broken bottle. Failing that, someone please, remind me to get a life.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Anyone seen my camel?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:01 PM

...there's what we want, Ted, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use: I'd like to think I compete/"fight" reasonably fairly for what I want...but, as you surely know, others have used very different tactics - not just in "the old days".

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:06 PM

Face it WAV - you are on your own with this one.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:22 PM

The Snail, e.g., is clearly against me on some things, but is with me "on this one", CS - see above.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:50 PM

Quite happy for you to accept my post of 08 May 08 - 08:22 AM in its entirety, WAV.

I'm also quite happy for people to demonstrate that I am wrong but they seem to be more interested in opposing what you say because it's you saying it which rather over-rates your importance.

I am NOT happy to be told that, because vernacular music was largely melodic in the past, I should not use harmony now given my main musical activity. (I'm the one with the beard.)

Arrangements for our Chippenham FF sessions will be on the website soon.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:57 PM

I NEVER thought , on THIS I would post

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