Musician Rudeness

Subject: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:16 AM

I have recently started to go to Folk Clubs again after many years absence.I just cannot believe the rudeness of mainly the musicians at clubs I have attended.
One tuning up and discussing chords with another player whilst someone was performing.Completely ignoring a performer on stage and cutting straight across his vision with guitars and instruments ,talking
jumping up to go out for a drink in front of the performer.
We always used to wait until the performer has finished and then go in quietly, or go for a drink between sets etc.I can understand possibly a few members of the audience not knowing the rules but musicians should know better.
Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:30 AM

There is one particular musician I know who plays Bodhran, who insists on walking into the middle of a session, usually whilst someone is singing or playing a tune, then shouts hello to everyone, shouts his order to the bar then shows everyone his latest rhythms, as loud as possible! (still mid song / tune)

Possibly as annoying is when someone is playing a tune and people join in and take over the tune. (I am guilty of this sometimes!) Especially when they play a different version of the tune!

I am a big fan of the informal session but there should be a bit more awareness of what is going on!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:31 AM

Face it Al, this is a selfish, egocentric society we live in. It happens in all walks of life now, and lack of manners, and consideration for others, is a lost grace.


Giok

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:43 AM

As is often the case in most areas of life, the musicians who do this kind of thing are high on ego, low on talent.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:01 AM

A musician is someone who listens to music and other players.
Someone who behaves as described is NOT a musician.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:23 AM

Have to agree with Giok on this one; this is a selfish, egocentric society. People talk about the 'me generation'; it's now become the 'me society'. And - nothing new here - it's not usually the people with something to shout about who do the shouting.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:40 AM

Wow! The bad behaviour of one guitarist and one bodhran player is enough to condemn a whole generation.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:42 AM

Singing or playing along ~ "barging in" ~ may be considered offensive in some contexts and not others, but it is understandable, and at least it consists of participation in the music that is currently being sung/played/performed.

Flat-out interruption of the proceedings is something else again, and should not be tolerated.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the UK folk-club scene, but it would seem to me that any kind of "club" at all would have some sort of semi-regular membership. Those who attend fairly reguarly, and who know each other, have the responsibility of enforcing whatever standards the group might hope to maintain. I mean, who else is going to do it for you? It should not be necessary to hold formal elections of officers, or whatever, to agree upon a spokesperson (one of the more self-assured members, I would suppose) who can be expected to speak up when a newcomer violates decorum, and who in turn can expect his/her fellow "members" or regulars to back him up if the offender(s) fail to respond appropriately.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 13 May 08 - 11:48 AM

Half-fast drivers with cell phones in their ears'
Loud, obnoxious celebrants with loud and lusty cheers,
Hooligans at sports events who've overdosed on beers,
Who raised this band of miscreants, the nasty little dears?

Arrogant and thoughtless, as they climb their social ladders,
Pushy, angry, malcontents who never learned their manners,
They scramble over you and me, hissing just like adders!
But, soon enough, as we pass by, we'll salute them with our bladders.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:00 PM

I have never understood the propensity of people at sessions, sin-arounds, performances to tolerate that shit. Throw the sonuvabitch out. I don't see the problem. "The door's over there; use it! Come back when you've learned to behave."

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:01 PM

I blame television.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: AlexB
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:10 PM

What goes on at a sin-around then, Peace? Sounds exciting!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Deckman
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:11 PM

What's the matter over there ... don't you guys carry guns? We do! SSSHHHEEEUUUHHH! Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Beer
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:12 PM

Three years ago I went to a spot where I heard the music was great. There was easily a hundred people there and about 30 musicians. When it was my turn to go up and do my three numbers I crossed my arms and waited for the audience to stop talking. When they stopped, I proceeded to sing the three songs. I never went back. I was asked by a lady as to why I don't go any more and I told her. She replied by saying "I don't blame you, it is a good thing gone bad".

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:17 PM

"What goes on at a sin-around then, Peace? Sounds exciting!"

OOPS. I forot a letter, huh?

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: glueman
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:26 PM

If people don't shush you're allowed to invoke the 1954 Marshall stack clause. Plug in and blow their chairs over.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Cath
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:27 PM

I have to say that the musicians who were paid performers, and those who were playing for love of the music, at this weekend's Holmfirth festival were lovely people to work with and listen to. To a man and woman they were great and I would have no hesitation in inviting them back and all the feed back we have had says the same.
In my experience the ones who cause most trouble are those who demand the highest fees and have an inflated idea of their importance and I try not to book them if at all possible - at least not twice!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:34 PM

you must be talking about me, Cath.what a lovely pub the nook is.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Rog Peek
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:49 PM

In all walks of life, you will find good and bad, well mannered and rude, it just seems that these days there are more of the latter than there used to be. Haven't you noticed, we live in an age of bad manners. Why should it be any different with musicians.

I have taught for 35 years and am dismayed by the gradually declining beaviour and demeanour of some parents attending parents' evenings. It is not that unusual these days to have a parent sit opposite you dressed for the beach, and the discussion to be punctuated with mobile phone calls.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 May 08 - 01:02 PM

I don't know if this would work in the British folk clubs, but—

I knew a fellow back in the 1960s, an unemployed actor, who used to frequent the coffeehouse where I was the "house singer." Alex was a bit of an egomaniac, and he used to give my a great deal of unwanted advice on my performances, particularly what he thought I was doing wrong. Among other things, it was my duty as a performer to keep his interest engaged. It didn't seem to matter to him that the rest of the audience was thoroughly engaged;   I had to keep his interest. The main problem with that was that Alex was primarily interested in himself.

One evening when I was in the middle of a set, which was generally going well, I could hear Alex's stage voice booming out of the back of the place as he talked loudly to a couple of people he had brought with him. People turned and glared at him, some shushing him, but he continued to run his loud mouth—of course thoroughly embarrassing his table companions. By doing this, his message to me was that I had failed to engage his interest.

After he had talked loudly through the better part of two songs, when I finished my current song (getting a particularly enthusiastic ovation from the rest of the audience, letting me know that, whoever the bullhorn in the back corner was, they were with me), I was totally fed up and decided to take direct action.

Although the place didn't really need a PA system, there was one there, and it was turned on, giving just a slight boost to my voice and guitar. Normally I sang about two feet back from the mic. After the applause died away, I leaned in very close to the mic and said, loudly,

"ALEX!"

My voice, coming out of several speakers around the place, sounded like the Voice of God. Surprised at my suddenly very loud voice coming at him from all directions, Alex's head jerked up and he looked at me. Having got his attention, I delivered my message.

"ALEX, SHUT THE HELL UP!!!"

The rest of the audience burst into applause!

Alex got up and left. I haven't seen him since.

I'm not exactly heartbroken about that, though.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:06 PM

"If people don't shush you're allowed to invoke the 1954 Marshall stack clause. Plug in and blow their chairs over."

ONLY if you've a Fender Strat (preferably an original 1954, though you can get away with models as late as 1961 *LOL*) plugged into the stack.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:24 PM

Snail: no, the behaviour of two musicians isn't enough to condemn a whole generation. But haven't you noticed a decline in the standards of behaviour of a substantial part of our society - not just one generation? A lot of us have.
Peace: these sinarounds were mentioned on another thread recently. I'm intrigued; is this a trend? Do you have to take a partner alomg, or is it OK just to join in?
Guest Joe: I agree about the session taking over your tune. Try playing your cleverly-arranged version of 'Princess Royal'; you'll be drowned out before you've played the first two bars. I tried it once. I've also had the experience of starting a tune at a lively pace, and other people have galloped away with it, so that I'm struggling in vain to hold it back. Then at the end, someone has turned to me and said "blimey, that was fast". What do you say to them?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:35 PM

And don't forget to turn the Marshalls up to ELEVEN, as per Spinal Tap!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:52 PM

Why not just make 10 be the loudest?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      These go to 11!!! LOL, Poppagator!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 08 - 03:55 PM

The late, great playwright, George S. Kaufman, was watching the debut performance of one of his shows from the rear of the theater. He was particularly annoyed at the work of the lead actor in the first scenes. At the intermission, he sent a page with a note to the dressing room, in which he wrote: "Enjoying the play from the foyer; wish you were here!"

In past times, people could be rude, but the more literate among them at least used some class when being so. Now, we have semi-literates who wouldn't recognize appropriate behavior if it crept up and bit 'em on the ass!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:52 PM

Musicians - rudeness - 2 come to mind - Martin Allcock and Bernard O'Neil!!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:00 PM

Harmonium Hero

But haven't you noticed a decline in the standards of behaviour of a substantial part of our society - not just one generation?

I think every generation says that when the reach a certain age.

Try playing your cleverly-arranged version of 'Princess Royal'; you'll be drowned out before you've played the first two bars.

Play in F or Bb. It at least keeps the G/D melodeons out. G minor can be risky. "Oh! It's in G!" Vrooooommmmm.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:00 PM

It seems to me that manners of any sort were pretty much thrown by the people who reached the age of reason in the Sixties and early Seventies. And it seems to me that many of the complainers today were among the complained about then--could be wrong, though--

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:06 PM

"But haven't you noticed a decline in the standards of behaviour of a substantial part of our society - not just one generation?

I think every generation says that when the reach a certain age."

Yes, and it's then we realise that we've become the people our parents are or were, as in "Oh God. I've become my mother!"

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:10 PM

"ONLY if you've a Fender Strat"

Telecaster, Charlotte, TELECASTER. Dang. I had an original way back and if you can believe this, I traded it for a Framus acoustic. Death where IS they sting!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:13 PM

I own and still play my late mom's 1961 Strat (black) :-D Oh someone did mention that the Marshall amps go to 11 did they? *LOL*

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:33 PM

Snail: yes, every generation has summat 'say about the young 'uns, but that is often more to do with clothes/hair/music, etc. My parents' generation certainly had a few opinions on that score. But look at the Beatles and Rolling Stones in the early 60s. What nice boys, compared with, for instance, certain members of Oasis. OK, Lennon got a bit mouthy in the later period, but I don't think anybody ever accused him of rudeness, and I don't think that any of them - in public, at least (I can't vouch for their private lives) behaves any differently now. There HAS been a decline. No question. I'm a sensitive soul, me; I notice these things, and always have done. It's not just that I'm now a grumpy old man.
Disgusted of Wigan.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Shocked and Appalled in Reading
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:37 PM

Musicians - rudeness, disgraceful I call it, and a severe decline the general morals of young folk today!!! we live in an age of bad manners...absolutely, it's disgusting!!

I remain.....

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:47 PM

I think every generation says that when the reach a certain age.

The funny thing is that you guys are saying it about your *own* generations. The kids are all right, but the parents and grandparents are out-of-control nutjobs. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:51 PM

Grab

The kids are all right, but the parents and grandparents are out-of-control nutjobs. :-)

Quite right too. Grow old disgracefully, that's what I say.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:53 PM

whatever you say "Graham"..my parents are/were very far from, as you so quaintly put it, nutjobs, the same can be said for my sisters and I, so you see "Graham", you, to coin another quaint phrase, are completely out to lunch *LOL* and yes I'm laughing at you, not with you

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 May 08 - 05:57 PM

In fairness to the young Folk Generation, the best behaved was the youngest person at one of the clubs ,enthusiastic,played and sang brilliantly and if he is an example of the younger generation,bring some more in.It was the older musicians that were the problem ,artists that have been around years,who it would appear have forgotten the basic rules of politeness when someone is performing.Those who would complain the most if it happened to them whilst they were on stage.
Should we folkies have to rely on amplification to overcome background noise,I certainly do not think so,but is that the way Folk will have to be presented?
I hope not

Al

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:00 PM

The problem is, there are no serious consequences these days for rudeness.

Now back in the Good Old Days of the American West when everybody with a lick o' sense carried a six-gun most folk were more polite. The perpetually rude didn't last long.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:07 PM

I certainly don't have a problem with using amplification. As I stated a bit ago, I own and still play my late mom's 1961 Strat. Seems some people had a problem with Bob Dylan and Fairport Convention "plugging in"......

Charlotte

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:15 PM

I certainly don't have a problem with using amplification. As I stated a bit ago, I own and still play my late mom's 1961 Strat. Seems some people had a problem with Bob Dylan and Fairport Convention "plugging in"......

I don't think that's the point. I don't think a performer in a folk club should be forced into using amplification to overcome background chatter, etc.

As it happens, over the last 12 months or so, the only singing I've heard has been unamplified and audiences have been quiet so I don't think there is a problem. (And while I know we can all encounter the problems raised in the first couple of posts, I can't say I've witnessed anything that would lead me to believe its on the increase).

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:17 PM

For Bonzo- what did Maartin Allcock do that was rude, I'm curious. I've chatted with him a few times, seems a perfectly decent bloke.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: glueman
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:19 PM

Well now you mention it I did propose the Telecaster as the definitive English instrument. Like Churchill, at least half American but with impeccably wasted Albion lineage.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:20 PM

Plugging in is a personal preference...and I prefer it..and you know what, it certainly sounded like an objection to amplification to me, so I stand by what I said.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: skarpi
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:21 PM

are you playing a " Concert " or are playing as a "trubador" ?

or are going to a session ???


there is a diffrent there between .

on concert you have the holy room quiet , trubador you are playing
music as people want to dance with , and on session well you all know
how that goes .


ATB Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: glueman
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:27 PM

To plug or not to plug? Unfettered acoustics have the moral and even aesthetic high ground, but what's worse than a room of hushed reverence when you can have riotous bawd. On balance I'm with Mr Marshall, preferably with valves.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: mandotim
Date: 14 May 08 - 05:36 AM

Also for Bonzo; I've known Maart Allcock since I was at school with him 40 years ago, and I've never known him be rude to anyone, in fact the reverse; he's always good-humoured and accessible, with a wicked sense of humour. Like lots of musicians he is slightly deaf from all the exposure to high levels of amplification, but rude? Not the Maart I know at all. What happened to form this view?
Tim

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: Grab
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:02 AM

Bad hangover, Charlotte...?

yes I'm laughing at you, not with you

Be sure that's mutual.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:46 AM

Maart rude? Not in my experience either. He's a great musician and a great chap. And he gives great T shirt slogan too.

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 08 - 07:18 AM

Skarpi raises a pertinent point (I'm fond of alliteration). Sessions are sessions are sessions. They are for musicians to play, learn and share. I'm very annoyed when I ring a venue in advance and ask the specific question "is this an open session, are all musicians welcome" to which I usually get the response "yes, totally open"...only to arrive and find that the people who have been hired to be there every week just to assure that someone is there (and you people, don't fool yourselves by thinking you cannot be replaced) are playing in Eflat and can't bring themselves to look you in the eye let alone greet you and welcome you when you arrive with your instruments. Lately, I just say "you obviously don't know who I am" which causes them to reflect, and I hang in like a rat terrier. Some people don't have the chutzpah to do this and often listeners miss out on the opportunity to hear/see something or someone "fresh". Shameful and shocking (more alliteration!). Keep the faith, be strong and move forward always!

Subject: RE: Musician Rudeness
From: theleveller
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:24 AM

"For Bonzo- what did Maartin Allcock do that was rude"

Probably passed the port the wrong way. Boko's very particular about these things.