overrated performers

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,aeola2
Date: 29 May 08 - 04:14 PM

oh pish!! just when I thought I would find out what over-rated meant!!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Gervase
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:48 AM

It's all a matter of taste. I think someone's over-rated, you think they're great and, er, that's it. Personally Peter Bellamy's voice used to make me cringe, so I would say he was over-rated as a performer but matchless as an arranger of songs. Similarly Peggy Seeger (cue joke about Ewan putting his hand over his ear...) - but it's all personal prejudice.
Jim Carroll is (as usual) right - best let this thread dribble away.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 08 - 03:33 AM

This thread seems to have found its own level - so to speak.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:05 PM

After 6 gin and tonics anyone who can get it straight is to be respected.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:55 PM

I'm in my sixties and peeing is what I do.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Fullbladder
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:45 PM

Pissing up the wall is a contest when you're young. Get your prostate checked out if it happens when you're peeing in your fifties.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:58 PM

But can you wee on your ceiling... ? (You don't get any points for the floor.)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:36 PM

well I have the pine coloured laminate floor covering. and I wouldn't recommend it for floors or ceilings. round this spring time of year - the earwigs and other insects become very visible

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST, We all have worth
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:14 PM

What colour do you think is overrated? One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:16 PM

By that TJ, I take it you don't remember who could wee the highest in your school.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:12 AM

Every performer in history is/was overrated - or underrated - to someone. Generally, I find these lists tedious and unproductive. In the immortal words of Cole Porter, "Let's call the whole thing off."

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: theleveller
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:03 AM

"Can we all kiss and make up? "


Personally, I think make-up is greatly overrated - I always seem to smudge the eye-liner.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:48 AM

Oh.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:45 AM

Not much chance, we're English - we don't go in for that sort latent homo-eroticism.

Still you know what they say, what's the difference between a guy who's bisexual and one that's straight?

About six gin and tonics!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:25 AM

Can we all kiss and make up? GROUP HUG!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:40 AM

WLD -

"Oh no you don'T"

LOL - thanks.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:38 AM

> we all used to have this competition to see who could wee furthest up the wall.

So THAT'S why they call you Wee Little Drummer...

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:35 AM

When I was a kid in infant school, we all used to have this competition to see who could wee furthest up the wall.

There was this kid, who could pee right over the wall and into the girls playground. We always applauded those performances that got a reaction - some girl shouting.....'OI! You dirty thing! You mucky thing!' and running off to tell teacher. Naturally we'd all run off then. One time he managed to actually hit a teacher on the other side of the wall, and then justice caught up with him.

Talking of overrated performers, I wonder what he went on to achieve later in life. What heights achieved. Or was it a case of too much, too soon?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:35 AM

Nowt wrong with Kenneth/Rambling Sid - didn't take himself seriously, and was a rare talent anyhow. Robbie is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 08 - 05:04 AM

Oh no you don'T!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:42 AM

I don't mind a joke, but f*ck a pantomime.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Sorry. Too many large red wines with dinner perhaps..... Mr Williams.

I can't think who you mean. kenneth Williams...Rambling Sid? Robbie......

Anyway, I'm sure you're right. never liked the bugger, whoever he is.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:51 PM

further discussion [on my part] with Jim Carroll,will take part in the form of personal messages.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:51 PM

"for the fourth time, the thread was started as a joke"
Seems to have backfired somewhat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:43 PM

Have you two thought of getting married..?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 08:39 AM

for the fourth time, the thread was started as a joke,in relation to Dustin the Turkeys,eurovision song performance.
The correct place for criticism[so that the performer can benefit],is in private on a one to one basis.,and is generally best when the performer has asked for ways, he she/ might improve,for example if I wanted to Improve my guitar playing,I might ask someone like Richard Grainger[how to use DADGAD]or if I wanted to have an opinion on a self composed song,I might ask him or someone like Peter Bond.,or if I wanted an opinion on how to interpret a ballad I might ask Martin Carthy.If someone wanted advice on song accompaniment Iwould be happy to help,I would also direct them to the recordings of LouisKillen ,AlfEdwards,SteveTurner,TonyRose,DamienBarber,BrianPeters.
honest, open discussion does not include calling me an egotistical twat,that is personal abuse,[post from Jeri].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:53 AM

Cap'n
If you disapprove of criticism so much, why in god's name did you start this thread in the first place?
A paid performer who attempts to stifle criticism of his/her performance is like a fishmonger who sells bad fish and forbids his customers from telling anybody else.
If you cant tell the difference between honest, open and balanced discussion and harangue, once again we appear to be speaking a different language. I'm off to find an interpreter who speaks your language!
Incidentally, Bob Davenport is the only singer I have known to publicly harangue a fellow performer at a club, in that case, a young woman at The Musical Traditions Club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:58 AM

Yep - Apache - always goes down an absolute storm.

I know what you're saying WLD, and have to agree - no such thing as bad publicity. You have to agree though that Mr Williams (No ear, All nose & Throat Specialist) is No 1 over-rated performer though?

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:03 AM

Look its like this.

You start singing, performing or whatever and people criicise you.

Someone is going to say you're crap. If you pursue performing for a living - sometimes whole rooms full of people will decide you're crap.

it goes with the territory.

Every performer puts up with it, or gets out. Every one: Elvis, Sinatra, Pavarotti, Carthy, Dick Miles, Ron Kavana.......

Whenever two or more gigging musicians get together they have a drink and a curry and tell war stories. And they criticise back. So you criticise away......

Because in a way, you're doing us a favour....adding to the fund of folk tales amongst musicians.   stuff like...

'I understand what you're sayin', its an acoustical guitar, BUT DO YOU DO ANY SHADOWS NUMBERS?'

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:23 AM

if I took Jims argument to its logical conclusion,it would be acceptable,to harangue performers in clubs,it is not because it upsets the performer,prevents him from playing at his /her best,and therefore spoils the performance for others.
you have complained about Bob Davenports behaviour on one occasion at a performance.
you say ,the performer may invite public criticism,but good manners and politeness should be shown,so that other members of the audience can enjoy the performance.
this thread and some of the comments have overstepped the bounds of good manners.
the best way in my opinion to improve ones performances is to ask the opinion of a performer you respect.,who can then give valuable help in private.
this thread was intended as a joke .
I should have realised that there are a small minority of begrudgers and very rude people on this forum,and I apologise for starting the thread.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:03 AM

You invite public criticism by singing in public - if you can't take it, stay at home and sing in the bath!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:53 AM

I agree with Greycap,.
criticism is ok provided its constructive,asked for and best done in private.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 08 - 03:51 AM

this thread was a started as a joke,hence Dustin the Turkey.
I

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 08 - 02:45 AM

Greycap,
I think this goes far beyond personal tastes.
Those of us who have become involved in traditional music have done so because we believe it to be important.
While I agree with you that this thread has been poorly set up, if we are unable to discuss the abilities of public performances of singers and musicians for fear of hurting someones feelings, we may as well all pack it in and go home.
Analysis, criticism and discussion are an essential part of the well being of any creative activity; stifle them and that activity will deteriorate and die.
Taken to its logical conclusion, we would have to steer clear of discussing cinema, theater, painting, literature and any other artistic endevour. Healthy, positive critical discussion is the lifeblood of any art.
Jim Carroll
PS I would extend this argument to the parallel 'under-rated performers' thread; bland sycophantic praise can do as much damage as negative slagging off.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 25 May 08 - 07:12 PM

we all have very strong opinions on certain artistes, it would be unatural not to feel this way.
From our own personal viewpoint, some artistes are not our particular cup of tea and other peoples' view of them may be over-rated.
I don't think this thread is a dignified one. It's time to draw a close before it gets out of hand IMHO.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:01 PM

Caitlín
"Much better IMHO to leave off the prejudicial definitions and just discuss the work itself, both good and bad aspects."
I wish I'd said that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:50 PM

Any American Idol winner! (So far...)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:40 PM

Jim - I have no problem with constructively critical discussion (even when it's negative) of an artist's work, for the reasons you've just given. But I have a big problem with that label "over-rated". Why hang that on anyone? Who decides? People aren't ever going to agree on it anyway. And I never said anything about someone not being qualified to give an opinion. I don't even believe that.

Much better IMHO to leave off the prejudicial definitions and just discuss the work itself, both good and bad aspects. Asking why someone is over-rated is still stating that they ARE over-rated, and I don't think it's a fair frame of reference. Making a public list of names just sucks.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 08 - 03:18 PM

Caitlín,
'The only thing they ever accomplish is to cause hurt feelings and inevitable fights'
I agree with you up to a point.
By asking for a list of 'overrated performers', which were the terms in which this question is posed, is, I believe, of little value. I think it would have been a different matter to have asked why they are/were overrated. The suggestion that performers are incapable of taking criticism of their singing and playing is, I believe, a rather patronising one.
Any singer, musician, writer, painter, researcher - whatever, who presents their efforts to the public should expect their work to be scrutinised and commented on, otherwise, they really shouldn't be there.
The only thing they have a right to ask is that the scrutiny and comment should be fair, honest, and positive (in terms of how their work might be improved). If this is adhered to, hurt feelings should never be a guiding factor in criticism.
Let's face it, people are quite likely to talk about your work; would you rather they did that to your face or behind your back.
The idea that there are people not qualified to give an opinion on what you do is elitist nonsense.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: goatfell
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:25 AM

I tihnk that Elvis and the beatles were all right but not my cup of tea I mean Elivs once told Roy Orbison that his song 'only the lonely' was shit and then Elvis records 'old shep'

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 May 08 - 05:03 AM

OH YES IT IS !!!!!!
;-)

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 08 - 04:57 AM

People agreeing wiv me - we can't have this.......its not traditional!

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,caitlín
Date: 24 May 08 - 05:27 PM

I agree with every point the wee drummer has made. Ron K can be very uneven... I've seen him great, I've seen him OK, and I've seen him untogether and not on top of it, which isn't the same thing as being bad. It's also not the same thing as being over-rated. And he does have real talent, however he uses it on the night. WHY are there threads like this? The only thing they ever accomplish is to cause hurt feelings and inevitable fights. You know that at least some of the named victims are going to read about themselves. Some "joke". Ha ha.

Al (along with Forrest Gump's mother) is right about Irish centres too. They're a bit like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get...

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:43 PM

Elvis Costello ain't all that bad.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:42 PM

I always thought, with some people at least, that we took it as read that Elvis Presley was/is vastly over-rated

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: GUEST,Sebastion
Date: 24 May 08 - 04:36 PM

I'm a bit surprised that no one has suggested that Elvis was overrated. I am not saying that I think Elvis was bad but he was certainly overrated, and still is, by his fanatical fans. Some of the more fanatical fans, especially the impersonators, I find are a bit weird. It has been said that Elvis impersonators are increasing at an exponential rate and that, at this current rate, in about twenty years time the entire human race will be Elvis impersonators. What a f*@&ing nightmare.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 08 - 03:41 PM

"I do not respect people who slag everyone else off,when they cant do it themselves, neither do I respect people who use this forum,as you have done to abuse others."

If you are addressing the lady, I thought she was rather polite.

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 08 - 02:39 PM

Cap'n,
suspect I am not the only one who is feeling somewhat embarrassed on your behalf - please stop
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:09 PM

If Martin Carthy played on a record of mine, besides it being a very high compliment, I certainly would know that I was, at least, half way good

To paraphrase The Captain, those that can do, those that can't criticise or teach

Subject: RE: overrated performers
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 08 - 01:00 PM

you are free to respect who you like, you are not free on this forum to personally abuse me.
for your information, Martin Carthy was happy to play guitar on one of my recordings.
I have never said I was better,or as good as Martin Carthy,that is your interpretation.I said something else
I do not respect people who slag everyone else off,when they cant do it themselves, neither do I respect people who use this forum,as you have done to abuse others.