'English Country Dances', Please

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:15 PM

The UN has a website hosting service? I did not know that! Is it ad free? or is it, perhaps slow like dial-up and really rather redundant, when you finally are able to log-in?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:13 PM

"E-Ceilidh IS English dance" (Ruth)...so it's a misnomer - call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances and I will stop whinging."

ECD, reffering to an event, is a MISNOMER, WAV.

"Thanks, Nick, but, with my email and my web host, I've avoided "UK" - I believe in the English nation and the United Nations. (On myspace, "UK" is unavoidable, but you may see I've found a way around it.)"

I didn't know that your website is hosted by the UN....

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:10 PM

the character of Roderick Spode from the tv adaptation of Jeeves and Wooster

Based on Oswald Mosley (Spode was leader of the "Black Shorts"!)

"E-Ceilidh IS English dance" (Ruth)...so it's a misnomer - call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances and I will stop whinging

I have occasionally done things for no other reason than to stop a close relation or loved one whinging, but generally nothing more radical than going back to check the back door or stopping to buy an ice-cream. The idea that the English folk-dance scene should collectively forswear both non-English tunes and the word 'ceilidh', for no other reason than to stop Some Bloke On The Internet whinging, is a bit hard to take seriously. One could almost imagine that Some Bloke On The Internet actually wanted to carry on whinging...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST, Cushie Butterfield
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:06 PM

"I believe in the English nation and the United Nations"

... where does the Geordie Nation fit in?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Dead is dead, regardless of how you dress it up. I never been one to prettify it.

and WAV once more says "call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances "

I, for one, absolutely refuse to be so narrow-minded. Once more,English country dance is the form of dance, the ceilidh is the event at which the dance is performed, by REALLY entusiastic people, there's a big difference.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:00 PM

my late Godmother told my they did "English country dancing" at school

If it comes to it, I did "English country dancing" at school, some time before I'd ever heard of a 'ceilidh' (barn dances, we had back then). I've never heard of an event called an English Country Dance, however.

we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background

No, we don't. We have hundreds of different cultures, some flourishing, some reviving, some being kept alive by enthusiasts and some withering on the tree. I think most people here are enthusiasts for one or many of those cultures. But here's the funny thing - the people who are heavily into bell-ringing or playing the Northumbrian small pipes or rapper dancing aren't usually the ones who complain about other people being equally into qawwali chant or gospel music or square-dancing. Enthusiasts for one area of participatory culture generally welcome enthusiasts for other areas, 'English' or otherwise. It's not a problem - the more culture the merrier.

Your insistence on accentuating the negative (in the guise of celebrating something called 'English culture') makes me wonder not only about your politics but, more importantly, about your enthusiasm. What do you actually like?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:56 PM

Thanks, Nick, but, with my email and my web host, I've avoided "UK" - I believe in the English nation and the United Nations. (On myspace, "UK" is unavoidable, but you may see I've found a way around it.)
"E-Ceilidh IS English dance" (Ruth)...so it's a misnomer - call them English country dances, and have them filled with mostly/all English tunes and dances and I will stop whinging. (But nice to see you competing/"fighting"/arguing, these days, mostly without dirty tactics - although, I'd prefer late Godmother to "dead" Godmother...wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:43 PM

First off, most of the time, when someone links to something they already wrote about via a link, the link goes directly to the paragraph in hand, not to the beginnings of your website, where one would have to sift through hours of material to find the point you are arguing.
Second, while in some way I understand a certain aspect of the point I think you are trying to make, I find it misguided. Your arguments remind me of the character of Roderick Spode from the tv adaptation of Jeeves and Wooster-English nationalism of such a vague sort that it comes across as just wacky.
Yesterday I asked you what you might think of someone like Michael McGoldrick. Well, looking at an earlier post, I think I got my answer-"if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard." Take that to another level WAV. People move around, Irish came to England,Canada or the US. English went to America. Or people move around in their own country. As I heard Norma Waterson say recently, if you had a song that someone from Sussex had in their family for generations, but then someone moves to Newcastle, the song will change, hence the reason for different versions of songs. What's your stand on bluegrass then WAV? You do know of course that versions of English, Scots and Irish ballads have been maintained almost completely intact in places like Kentucky or Tennessee. People singing songs about English knights and such with a rural southern accent. I suppose if your logic is carried through, those folks are wrong to do so, because they should be singing American songs, whatever that is.
On your website too I saw something about World Music-"World-music stalls and stages should be places where folkies of different nationality present different unfused music to each other. You do realize that word, unfused is a real difficult one to use in context of music. West African music does not follow a colonialism rule. You can say someone is from Guinea-Bissau, or Mali, or Senegal, but the music itself comes from an ancient source that predates those names for countries we now know. Thus someone like Toumani Diabate's lineage of griots comes from the area we now know to be Mali, but was not Mali until 1960, before he was even born. The same can be said in Europe. Ever hear regional European music WAV? Do you realize that there has been so much polinization in European music that you can have someone from regions of France singing in Italian, or someone from Sardinia singing in Catalan? See? unfused doesn't work when you have music that by a map says it belongs in one country, while culturally, actually belongs in another. So your stated belief that different nationalities should present their own native, unfused music to each other, is in actuality, a deluded belief that music stops at border checkpoints, even the ones that didn't exist until the 20th century.
To paraphrase Dave Swarbrick, you can do anything you want to music, it doesn't mind.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Nick
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:24 PM

Interesting links and services you use.

Mudcat is an American site isn't it?

Wikipedia which you seem keen to quote from for support was founded by an American wasn't it?

Myspace - American again.

741.com - Registered in San Francisco.

Surely you could use some good old English resources?

For instance, you could host your site at FreeUK.com which would mean you didn't have to serve ads to people and then apologise for them. Plus it's very good and has served me well for years.

You could quote from some English encyclopedia rather than the often questionable 'authority' of wikipedia (the founder expressed his concerns famously some time ago) which one could even write an article oon and then link to for 'credibility'.

Interesting standards - do what I say not what I do.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:18 PM

ECD in schools. Ahh one of the major embarrassments of certain people's school days, those of a certain age.

For those interested there certainly is a fair amount of information out there on eCeilidh, just put 'eceilidh into Google or whatever your favourite search engine is. It's what I'm doing inbetween postings. :-)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:08 PM

I think English Country Dancing is one of those aspects of an English Education that most of us would rather forget, WAV! You link to WIKI in this respect, which makes it quite plain that ECD was very much a bourgeois thing anyway, revived in the early 20th century by Cecil Sharp whereupon it was inflicted upon generations of hapless school-kids by strict matronly pedagogues who probably thought such pseudo rustic cavorting to be somehow good for our souls.

One would imagine that the adoption of the Ceilidh, and latterly eCeilidh, by a younger more dynamic & radical generation, is as much by way of disassociation as anything else; seeking for a more genuine form of social interaction which might include the best of the old steps with none of the genteel paternalism generally attending them.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:06 PM

Dance - from French, danser

Oh dear.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 May 08 - 01:01 PM

Come to think of it, dance is a loanword.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:59 PM

"we can and should re-establish the English country dance (instead of the ceilidh, which has largely, quite recently, replaced it). I, by the way, mainly via satellite, probably enjoy Scottish music as much as most of you - BUT we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background;"

WAV - what are you on about, exactly? Where have you got the idea that E-Ceilidh is about Scottish music? E-Ceilidh IS English dance. Yes, it uses a caller - which doesn't even come from the Scottish tradition (where, as in Ireland, there aren't callers) - it was adopted from the American square dance craze in the 50s. This is to make the dance form MORE ACCESSABLE to people (like yourself, I expect) who may not know the dances but who would like the chance to join in. Dancing (mostly) English dances to (mostly) English music played by (mostly) English bands.

E-Ceilidh has been a shot in the arm for traditional dance in England - it has revitalised the form, attracts loads of youngsters as both musicians and dancers, and is a feature of pretty much every festival I can think of.

Can you explain what is un-English about this as a concept? And please don't whinge about the name, which is really immaterial when the activity is so popular and is doing so much good for the tradition.

The other thing I'd like to know, dead godparents aside, is have you ever been to an English Ceilidh? Or to a social dance? Do you know the difference? Do you participate in, or have experience of, any English traditional dancing at all?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:49 PM

They danced ECDs, they didn't go to an EVENT called an ECD. They went to a 'dance', or a 'barn dance' and now are going to 'ceilidhs'.
I showed you that wiki link way back at the start of the thread. It says that ECD is a dance form, not an event, so insisting on calling events ECDs is silly.
Now find me a source that says that the event is called an ECD.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:44 PM

English country dance is the dance form. the ceeilidh is the event at which English country dance is, perhaps, performed

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:42 PM

Now this is interesting

Cambridge University English Country Dance Club

This Might Be Useful

English Country Dance is a social dance form. That's easy to remember:-)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:39 PM

To Volgadon: my late Godmother told my they did "English country dancing" at school. Or read this.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:28 PM

WAV, please find one documented instance of the event being called an English country dance.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:26 PM

No we don't need nationalism, that's another thing wars have been fought over, and quite frankly it's simply not worth it, and I don't care WHOSE nationalism it is.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:07 PM

a 'guest", read those who will not take responsibility for their posts, says of me.

'Ever wondered what became of the Molecatcher's Unplugged Apprentice? She vanished in suspicious circumstances on the 15th of May, the same day as Def Shepard first appeared'

Come out in the open and face me instead of hiding behind an obviously fake name. You obviously won't do that will you?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:54 AM

Will do Veronica, thanks.
To IE: Yes - but I added that we can and should re-establish the English country dance (instead of the ceilidh, which has largely, quite recently, replaced it). I, by the way, mainly via satellite, probably enjoy Scottish music as much as most of you - BUT we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background; and, as I've said here, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Veronica N. Footprint
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:27 AM

Ever wondered what became of the Molecatcher's Unplugged Apprentice? She vanished in suspicious circumstances on the 15th of May, the same day as Def Shepard first appeared. Could they be by any chance related?

Watch out for those trolls & shape-shifters, Walkaboutsverse - creatures of darkness the lot of them!

Veronica

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:26 AM

So he was accurate in disagreeing with you?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:13 AM

I agree, Les: at least Howard was accurate - but I disagree with him (and Tony Blair, e.g.) that there's no going back to past ways; Blair, born in Scotland, also said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...oh, yes we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:29 AM

Surly Howard has said it all and very clearly?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Nick
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:19 AM

I thought it strange that his godmother was called Howard - but perhaps I misread that post.

>>The information was from my LATE-Godmother, RIP, Howard....

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:50 AM

What it boils down to is this: we have a word, "ceilidh", which has been established in its current English usage for decades (I can vouch for it being well established in the early 1970s). It is known even outside the folk fraternity as meaning a folk dance event. Within the folk world, it has additional layers of meaning which convey the types of dances, style of dancing and style of music to expect. It's a useful word.

WAV doesn't like this word because it has been borrowed from another language. However the strength and flexibility of the English language comes from its willingness not only to invent new words but to borrow from other languages - the dictionary is full of such words.

I can see where he's coming from, and if this discussion had been taking place before "ceilidh" became established in the English language I might have had more sympathy with his point of view, but the fact is that he's at least 40 years too late. This horse has long bolted.

Not only does he want us to stop using a single well-established word which has a specific meaning, he wants to replace it with three words which already mean something entirely different.

And with respect to his godmother, her experiences of doing "English Country Dances" at school in, at a guess, the 1920s or 30s tell us nothing about the actual live tradition, then or now. Whatever her adult contemporaries were doing on Saturday nights in the village hall, I'd lay money they didn't call it an "English Country Dance".

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,E J Thribb
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:45 PM

POEM 2 OF 285: FOR NOEL EDMUNDS

Pink and yellow creature with sand filled bottom
Bounces back to its upright position
With the same inane look and vacuous response
As when I punched it last time
However hard I hit you won't you ever lie down?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:19 PM

To use a VERY good English term, WAV, you, me old china, are batting on a VERY sticky wicket! :-D

and it's goodnight from her!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:17 PM

Sue, he strikes me as being a teribly lonely person, who could best use his time in actually researching the subjects he claims to know about. I'm still waiting patiently for his reply to Chris Parkinson's question

a reminder:
Chris P's question "Wherein lies your point/problem?"

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:15 PM

So, according to the rules of walkaboutsverse, volume 979, stanza 12, or what have you, where does someone like Michael McGoldrick fall in to your equation of Englishness? Born in Manchester, but with obvious Irish heritage. Is he Scottish when he plays with Capercaillie? Is he Irish when he plays with Lunasa? Is he English when he plays with Kate Rusby? If he plays at a festival does he have to produce a passport for what country he is representing? Oh that's right, no of course not, because that's all bull-he's just a damn fine musician capable of playing with anyone. See, you just don't get it-applying rules to what you feel is proper English music, or even, what the proper name of a gathering of dance music should be called, you're not just missing the boat, you're missing the departure date, along with your ticket. Your rigid guidelines have no reasoning whatsoever. Yes, you can sit back and think, oh I wish I were in the England of 100 years ago, it would have been so much nicer. But, its 2008, you can't. You can't change the way music evolves, you can't change history, you can't change what you perceive is wrong with a music form that has thrived and will thrive without you. Lord knows what you think of The Imagined Village, just the kind of multi-cultural band that on the one hand, you should profess to admire for what they have done, but on the other, revile because it doesn't stick to artificial rules that you think apply. When I think about all the rules you govern yourself by, as to what this or that should be called, I just say to myself, sad, very sad.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:12 PM

(sorry, seem to have wiped my cookie in attempt to clean my computer)

Since WAV is always unwilling to accept that styles of song, dance or terms for the same evolve over time, and always have done, and refuses to address Chris Parkinson's eminently sensible points (made from a love and deep knowledge of that which he speaks) - would it not be better to agree, and accept, that WAV is only here to wind everyone up and boost his own ego ... and just IGNORE him?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:02 PM

I decided to do a small search to see if the term ceilidh is being used at ENGLISH folk festivals, and sure enough the Chippenham Folk Festival are having a number of CEILIDH bands performing. Hmm it seems that the term is being used a fair bit; isn't it? Time to get with the programme me thinks WAV :-D

Subject: Date my ceilidh
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:56 PM

No apologies for the attempted semi-hijack - I thought it was more interesting than the main topic of this discussion.

I saw the Albion Dance Band play a ceilidh at Trinity School Croydon, at Christmas...

1974?
Fits best with my other (vague) recollections, but seems a bit early for the ADB
1975?
1976?
Seems a bit late (I hadn't caught on to punk by Christmas 1976, but I'm fairly sure I'd stopped wearing the shirt I remember wearing* that night)

Christmas 1975 seems most likely, but I'd prefer it to have been 1974. Any thoughts?

*It was a memorable shirt. It was printed with a 'Dougal'** motif and had flared sleeves. I wore it a lot. Sometimes close friends pretended they weren't with me.

**The dog.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Agnes Mirren
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:40 PM

Thank you for reminding me, Mr Walkaboutsverse, ceilidh is good term as well, I see it on a number of announcements and posters for such events. The delightful Mr. Kirkpatrick (who knows far more than you, Mr Walkaboutsverse) uses the term ceilidh in the following, the rest maybe found on his website.

"Mr Gubbins' Bicycle is John Kirkpatrick's five-piece ENGLISH CEILIDH BAND, using the name of a tune he wrote many years ago after buying a bike from a certain Mr Gubbins! They play English tunes for English dances in an English style."
(CAPITAL letters are mine)

As you can see, Mr. Walkaboutsverse I can cut and paste every bit as well as you :-)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:34 PM

I believe Agnes Mirren used the term for the dance, not the event, so quit trying to use other people to "prove" whatever point you're trying to make. (I'm waiting for the pin to drop)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:31 PM

I add nothing to what I have said, WAV, so dream on, and "others on this thread" have agreed to nothing of the sort, so cease and desist with your attempts at divide and conquer

and yes we have ceilidhs in England, try reading instead of cut and pasting, do your research, and STOP invoking what your dead relatives believed, it's NOT viable research!
Personally I agree with the poster, Guest, Agnes Mirren.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:29 PM

And thanks for using "English country dance" Agnes, rather than the Scottish term "ceilidh", or the Irish term "ceili".

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:24 PM

"As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances."...Okay, DS, for clarity, please add the word "should" - and others on this thread have agreed that we DID, until about 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Agnes Mirren
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:16 PM

This here Mr Walkaboutsverse knows nothing about English country dance, probably never danced in his life, unlike dear Mr John Kirkpatrick with whom I had the pleasure of working, some years ago.

Jump at the Sun

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:09 PM

I'll tell you, Ruth, I wish I had an eighth of Chris Parkinson and John Kirkpatrick's dance experience. Every day in every way I'm still learning (can you say that WAV?)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:07 PM

I wonder if we might direct WAV's attention to the EFDSS site, Ruth? But there again, THAT might also be a total waste of time.'late Grandmother said'is probably far more reliable than Wikipedia, from which I can quite well believe some of WAV's terms have beem lifted (ooops sorry, harvested :-D )

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:02 PM

Def Shepard, that's because Chris P's question presumes a certain level of actual dance experience and knowledge, on the part of the respondent. Apart from bandying a few terms around, probably harvested from Wikipedia, WAV clearly doesn't really understand the distinction between the various types of English dance, how they developed, how they attract different kinds of participants, etc.

But he's still here to teach us all...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:53 PM

For someone who allegedly has a degree, his research is sadly lacking/non-existent

Chris P's question "Wherein lies your point/problem? " remains un-answered

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:51 PM

So what your 'late Grandmother said' constitutes rigorous academic research?

Oh dear...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:48 PM

You meant this thread title as the event, NOT the dance itself. Nice attempt at weaseling
You said:
"As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances."

and as Ia nd others have said, we have ceilidhs (the event)as well

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Re: Chris P - yes, my title could mean dances as events, or the variety of English country dances that may be danced at any given event. But it seems from my late Godmother, and others on this thread, that such terminology was used and understood until about 30 or years ago.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:18 PM

Irish, thanks for pointing out Chris P's post. His point cannot be argued with, it's short, sweet and very much to the point. I await with bated breath for WAV's answer. I'll sit and knit if you don't mind. WAV I'm knitting an Arran sweater, not very English I know, but my granddaughter did make a special request :-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:17 PM

Racism, DS, is where someone says they are all like this or that - which I have never done. I've never heard of the ENP - I'm not a member of any political party, but I was once contacted by the English Democrats who also promote "positive nationalism". Sorry I'm not sure who it was, but somewhere on mudcat someone mentioned falling into a WAV said it/it MUST be wrong trap - that's roughly what I meant by "slipping into recalcitrance". On the other hand, Sedayne, very critical my, mentions playing the tabor and pipe, and I remark the truth that I would like to hear it - at least trying to be reasonable and frank. To DS: are you also happy with the idea of the next Archbishop of Canterbury being a female?