Regional music

Subject: Regional music
From: Sue Allan
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:02 AM

I may be mad to start this, but another thread has a comment from glueman which opens up a subject which really interests me:

"You could make a good case for regionalism having more validity than national sound in the English canon."

I think glueman may have a point here and I'd be interested in other Mudcatters' perspectives on this. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:38 AM

I was thinking of starting a thread on that very quote, Sue - great minds and all...

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:39 AM

yes[As regards instrumental music] there are different regional English styles.
Northumberland,EastAnglia, West Country Bob Cann etc the latter two are much closer in sound .But fewer than inIreland

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Sue Allan
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:46 AM

Here's a supplementary question to my original: Does the term 'regional music' apply to repertoire as well as style?

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:56 AM

I'm particularly interested in songs that are about events, legends, folklore of particular areas - in my case the East Riding of Yorkshire, and that's what I write many of my songs about. I know other people do, too - at Ryedale Folk Weekend I was listening to Wendy Arrowsmiths superb account of a lifeboat rescue at Robin GHood's Bay when the Whitdy lifeboat was dragged by mern and norses all the way from Whitby in a blizzard. This, to me, is the very essence of folk music - traditional or contemporary - together with regional styles of playing instruments, particular accents etc.Listen to the songs of the Watersons. especially Mike Waterson, and you'll see what a powerful force regionality is in folk music.

In fact, thinking about it, I'd be hard pressed to say what our national sound is.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: glueman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:58 AM

England has heavily inflected accents and lots of them in a small area. It's hard to believe those word emphasis patterns haven't insinuated themselves into songs in ways beyond the superficial. Accents are more than diphthongs and vowel clusters but a way of looking at the world, imo. There's no proof of course but it's impossible to listen to a Geordie or Norfolk singer without summoning up the general cultural and physical space they inhabit.

Instrumentation is at one remove but solo singer-players tend to perform with punctuation that invites comparison with speech. I'll have to dig through the collection to find some examples.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:05 AM

Regional music is flavour of the decade now in English instrumental music. And rightly so. There never was any such animal as "English traditional music". Just various different kinds of "traditional music in England", quite a different concept altogether. Which is why attempts to define(or invent) an "English style" have been doomed to failure. The country's far too big for that sort of idea. It's also a very bad thing culturally, trying to invent a national norm, which is what Comhaltas was justifiably accused of doing in Ireland.
Let a thousand flowers bloom!
Vive la difference!

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM

leveller,
when I was living in East Anglia.I wrote anumber of songs about East Anglian legends,The Swaffham Tinker,The Curse ofHoxne Bridge,ThePakefieldParson,these along with other songs are available in my songbook.http://www.dickmiles.com
Greg.I agree with you about Comhaltas.
one thing that one can say about the english instrumental sound,is that [in my experience]it is not as highly ornamented as the most irish styles that one hears today,this could be a result of Comhaltas input,because Comhaltas place an importance in their competition system[high markingfor ornamentation],they[Comhaltas] have in fact altered styles.
I suspect that the styles English /Irish instrumental]at one time may have been closer, musically .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: RTim
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 07:58 AM

I am extremely interested in, and specialize in, songs that were collected in my home Country of Hampshire and I feel a very close affinity to them and the singers from whom they were collected;
BUT I am very mindful of what Vaughan Williams said - ie. "These are NOT necessarily Hampshire songs, just songs collected in Hampshire."
However, I do like having the image of the person and the place where a song was collected, and this brings me closer to those songs.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 08:43 AM

Let's consider the north of Argentina where Folklore music and dancing are BIG. Very regional of course as tango is very much BA based and you will not see it in the north. But at the volume levels experienced in the penas of Salta and Tucuman, I coined the title "Heavy Metal Folklore"!

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Marje
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:27 AM

Yes, as Tim says, the places where the songs were collected are not necessarily their place of origin. The early collectors had an understandable tendency to go to easily accessible places, which are probably over-represented in their collections.

A number of the songs that are about local or regional events are in fact quite recent compositions. This doesn't make them bad songs or less interesting songs, but it may mean there's nothing particularly distinctive about their regional flavour, except for the events they're describing, and possibly some use of dialect.

I suppose the regional characteristics of music and song are becoming less distinctive anyway, now that so many of us travel out of our native area and move around the country. The folk community also meets up at various festivals and folk days, exchanging tunes and songs, and no doubt learning from each other's playing and singing styles too. A similar levelling-out is happening in our language, as the more extreme forms of dialect are slowly dying out.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 10:36 AM

Another factor was anyone who had served in the army, navy, or even on board a merchant ship. That would have brought them into contact with music from all over, including foreign influences.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

I too am intersted in the regionality of folk culture, particularly the songs. The Tyneside area has a very definite style and dialect as has industrial Lancashire, also The Bothy Ballads of NE Scotland spring to mind. However Britain's largest county, Yorkshire, is similar to England itself in that it contains a wide diversity of cultures and dialects. There are large open rural areas that have their own songs, the West Riding industrial areas in the Leeds/Bradford conurbation, the Esk Valley has its own body of songs. Surprisingly Hull has no tradition of sea songs but there are fishing songs along the coast, the west Sheffield area up into the Pennines has the only strong song tradition still continuing due to the close-knit farming communities and the hunt suppers. 88 sample songs of the whole of Yorkshire are available currently on www.yorkshirefolksong.net

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:25 AM

Beat me to it Steve!

"Yorkshire Garland" listen to the different accents like John Greaves and Will Noble et al

Ray

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Tradsinger
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 03:38 AM

I regularly give talks about Gloucestershire and Cotswold folk music, which has led me to concentrate on what I mean by that. The vast majority of the songs that have been collected in this area are general English folk songs that could have turned up anywhere, such as John Barleycorn, Barbara Allen etc. However, when you look at the total body of the song, you find that a) regional dialect sometimes creeps in, b) local placenames creep in (e.g. Stow Fair for Widdecombe Fair) and c) the subject matter reflects local interests to some extent (e.g. lots of farming songs but few sea songs). However, beyond that, there are a few true local songs - the Gloucestershire Wassail is a good example, where a song is firmly linked to a calendar custom. There are a few, but very few songs that reflect local events here, and although you can find them in broadsides, they generally they did not have a wide circulation. As for style - well yes you can talk about local styles. The songs collected here from the farming community are usually 4-square tunes sung in a 4-square way. The gypsy songs however, show more diversity of modes and the singing style is more developed.

So while it is difficult to generalise about regional song, in this area at least, when you look at the whole body of song from here, you can get an overall feeling of Cotswoldness (Oh, I've coined a new word!).

My other interest is my home county of Hampshire, where similar arguments apply.

Love you all

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:10 AM

Ireland is extremely lucky with its traditional repertoire(s).
There is the Irish language one, almost exclusively lyrical, non-narrative, highly poetic and elabourately ornamented. Then the English language native Irish repertoire, a mix of narrative and lyrical and taking much from the Irish language tradition. There is a very rich Anglo-Irish - Scots repertoire, particularly noticeable in the ballads which have survived here. Over fifty Child ballads have been recovered over the last forty years, including some which have totally disappeared elsewhere (Lamkin, Prince Robert, Johnny Scott, The Suffolk Miracle, Young Hunting, The Maid and The Palmer, The Demon Lover, Fair Margaret and Sweet William.....).
I am just becoming aware of the local repertoires, particularly those which have been made in the 20th century. This area has proved to be particularly rich in these.
Emigration is one of the most popular subjects, but we have found half a dozen songs about the wreck of a French sailing ship in 1907, four dealing with the Rineen Ambush, (an event during the 'Black and tan' period) and four concerning the West Clare railway, a single track affair which served this coast up to the early 60s.
There are dozens upon dozens of others covering local events and characters.
One of the odd features of all these is that they nearly all have no known author, though they must have been written during the lifetimes of the singers.
All this has led to a very varied, all-encompassing repertoire.
For me, diversity is one of the greatest strengths of the Irish repertoire. The danger of favouring one category over has been underlined for me by the Irish music organisation's (CCE) neglect of, verging on hostility to the Anglo repertoire.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:31 AM

For me, diversity is one of the greatest strengths of the Irish repertoire. The danger of favouring one category over has been underlined for me by the Irish music organisation's (CCE) neglect of, verging on hostility to the Anglo repertoire.
Jim Carroll,I agree.
If I recall correctly,Comhaltas disqualify singers in their competetions who perform songs that are translations from the Irish Language into English,or songs that are in 3/4time.
they DO have sections for singing Irish songs in the English language,however in practice like all their competetions,much depends on the judges, prejudices, likes and dislikes.
Jim,can you give examples of Comhaltas neglect of the Anglo repertoire.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:44 AM

The fact that they have never included one on any album will do for a start.
There have been numerous edicts sent down from Monkstown on the subject of 'Irish' songs to make their attitude plain, and I have been in enough arguments with Comhaltas officials to have been left in no doubt.
See if you can find anything to change my mind.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:40 AM

Loth to restart discussions passim about manufactured tradition, but my impression of a lot of "regional" English (and other) tune books is that the tunes come in a number of categories:

Tunes in an identifiable style that seems to be genuinely peculiar to the area- many Northumbrian pipe tunes and Lancashire/ Cheshire 3/2 hornpipes are examples of these.

Tunes which are common repertoire but have a regional twist to them. again the Northumbrian tradition is a goldmine here, along with tunes like the 3/2 hornpipe version of the Foxhunters Jig (no arguments about which was the "original" please).

Tunes which were probably of local origin, but not particular to the local tradition- the sort of thing composed for respectable early/mid 19th century dances.

Modern compositions which sometimes seem to have little in common with the tunes of the first category. Many recent 3/2 hornpipes I've heard seem to have quite a different character from the old ones- probably due to different instrumentation (e.g. box rather than bagpipe) which doesn't have the same range limitations, different characteristic periods, use of chromatics etc. Note that I'm not saying they are bad, bogus, intrusive or anything- just that they are different. To me they often sound French.

I quite agree about there often being more differences than common ground in traditions, but wonder how much of that is a real reflection of the whole music of the regions.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:13 AM

Jim,are you saying that they promote songs in the Irish language,but not in the English language,or that they dont promote either.
Comhaltas would probably argue that they are promoting through their competitions.
I got the impression from you that they dont collect much of either,is that true?
I am not disagreeing with you,but hoped for more examples to back your statement up.
can you tell us about the edicts from Monkstown?send me a personal message if you think it more appropriate.
I have long suspected that what you are saying is true.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

Dick,
They mainly promote Irish language song; also English language Irish songs, but they totally ignore (and have disapproved of)the Anglo/Scots/Irish songs, which constitute around half of the English language repertoire.
Would be grateful if you could check to see if I'm right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:09 AM

there was a very interesting programme on Fermanagh flute playing on tg4. The Rev Gary Hastings Illustrated the difference between different regional styleshttp://www.tg4.tv/ then go to cartlannceol,then canuinti ceol.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: johnadams
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:05 AM

Interesting post from Paul. It's difficult to guess how regionality works with tunes, I idly assumed that publishing them would freeze them a bit while an aural tradition would develop versions. I can quote examples to support and refute this assumption.

An example of a tune gaining regionality would be 'The Buff Coat Hath No Fellow' in Playford (can't remember which one so no date), tracked to the Lake District in (I think) the late 18th century, where it's a more lively jig and retitled 'She Wants A Fellow'. Greg might narrow down the date for me, but a hundred or so years and it's changed considerably.

Conversely, 'Le Nouvelle Fantasie', published by John Simpson (circa.1800) remains pretty much unchanged all over England and even when we find it in NSW, Australia (by Sally Sloane) in the 1950s, 150 years later, it's nearly note for note. No 'added value' as it were.

I think there are three states for tunes.

Tailor made (and hence serving the needs in the region of origin).
Adopted (unchanged because they have a use or a resonance)
Adopted and Adapted (Loads of tunes in that category these days).

Does the same apply to songs?

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

Greg, when I use the expression "Let a thousand flowers bloom!"
nobody knows what I mean any more.

Very interesting thread.

Really appreciate the lack of invective.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:01 PM

Re. CCÉ recordings of English language songs, Jim Carroll wrote 'The fact that they have never included one on any album will do for a start.'

Well, here's two:

CL7 - VA - 'A Bar of a Song' - only two of the 20 songs of the album are in Irish.

CL44 - Bridget Tunney and Family 'Where the Linnets Sing'.

Additionally, Brendan O'Duill's album – 'Mo Roisín Dubh' (CL23) was half in English and half in Irish.

Add to the above the appearance of English language songs on several of the North American tour albums which make up a third of CCÉ's album releases.

As far as I recall Tom Phaidín Tom's eponymous album is the only full-length album example of singing in Irish that CCÉ has ever released (and that was 30 years ago!).

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:37 PM

here is the music of sliabh luchra.http://www.tg4.tv/then go to canuinti ceol 4 /5/08.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 04:52 PM

Comhaltas of course include English language native Irish songs in their activities, as I said in my posting.
They choose to ignore the Anglo/Scots/Irish ones, i.e. those which probably originated in Britain, but ended up in the Irish repertoire.
One of the best anthologies of Irish singing ever produced was CCEs 'Traditional Songs and Singers' from the recordings made by Seamus MacMathúna The singers on the album include Paddy Tunney, Geordie Hanna, Liam Weldon, Elizabeth Cronin, Paddy Berry, Des O Haloran, The Keane Sisters... etc.
All but two songs are in English (from the Irish repertoire), 1 is in Irish and the other is a macaronic (dual language) song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

PS
The Tom Costello album, "Tom Phaidín Tom" includes 3 English language songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Dick, Thanks for the bluey on those TG4 programmes, this is an excellent TV Station,certainly a must for anyone interested in Irish traditional music.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

And without a degree in English Folk Music all of those regional English traditions will receive less study than those national traditions (or agglomerations of traditions) that are formally and exclusively studied.

A question that puzzles me is why there seem to be so few Kent(ish) folk songs.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

Richard,
You must be hopping mad about this!
I think if I remember rightly George Frampton has been addressing this point recently. One answer of course is that the early 20thc collectors all lived much to the west of Kent. Sussex right across to Cornwall all got a fair trawling, but some counties further north also avoided the sweep. My native Yorkshire wasn't that well covered as Kidson didn't actually go out into the field much. He just had a few mates and relatives who happened to know songs and other singers.

Steve

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Sue Allan
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 05:59 PM

Richard - it's absurd to think you have to have a degree course in English Traditional Music to study regional English traditions - it shows a huge lack of understanding of university education. The scope at undergraduate level may be limited, but it's most certainly not at postgraduate level. My PhD research into Cumbrian folk song is with the history department of Lancaster University, and others have done important work in the field at Sheffield, Leeds, Aberdeen, Manchester and Hull ... and that's only the ones I know about.

I don't think English traditions are receiving less study than other national traditions at all: far from it. And in any case, there's such a crossover in all traditions that a case for 'national' boundaries is fairly spurious.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:10 PM

Steve Gardham said.
My native Yorkshire wasn't that well covered as Kidson didn't actually go out into the field much. He just had a few mates and relatives who happened to know songs and other singers.
I find this interesting,I would appreciate it if youcould let us know exactly how much collecting he did in Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Def Shepard
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

Did the early collectors have a degree course in English Traditional Music?
Not as far as I know.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Crowdercref
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:20 PM

In Cornwall we have some evidence of social repertoire from about 1620. Notwithstanding the remoteness of the Duchy it's clear that both instrumental music and songs from very far afield were known in Cornwall early on.

Evidence starts with London School viol music in the early 17th cent, and the Ballad of Chevy Chase was certainly known in Cornwall by 1690. I can quote many other examples. But we also have local English and Cornish language lyrics dating from about 1695 (Gwavas MS) and local tunes from about 1730 (John Giddy MS).

I suspect that the mobility of music means than in any region repertoire will be a mixed bag of local and further afield. However, the decision to call a tune, an element of style, or a distinctive repertoire 'Cornish', 'Hampshire' etc. is very much context driven- I can give you many criteria used when awarding such adjectives. Often such criteria require caveats concerning date, performance environment etc.

Processes in repertoire: I've identified 5 with a bonus. They are Retain, Create, Adopt, Modify, Discard. The bonus (a phenomenon of the last century and a half) is Revival. (Dissertation available on request!)

My vote is that the decision to study music considered 'English' must embrace relevant informing and comparative cultures. The way individuals and communities 'claim' music is probably worth a PhD on its own!

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:14 AM

"I would appreciate it if you could let us know exactly how much collecting he (Kidson)did in Yorkshire."
Cap'n
I seem to remember that there was a handy little booklet put out..... some time ago, written by..... and published by..... about Kidson's collection.
Hope you find this information useful!
Can't lay my hands on it at present; perhaps someone can fill in the blanks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:31 AM

"My vote is that the decision to study music considered 'English' must embrace relevant informing and comparative cultures. The way individuals and communities 'claim' music is probably worth a PhD on its own! "

Quite so, Mike. My conclusion has been that regionality of style is a consequence of local interaction between musicians/singers. This even pertains within the late 20th folk revival - where we can show stylistic commonplaces within a narrow area.

The de-localisation of the late 20th Century; the increase in geographic mobility; the dissolution of local support and familial networks (for the general populace rather than the exceptional traveller)- all mitigate against the development or even the maintenance of regional characteristics as it all becomes one homogenous mess.

The obsessive promotion of regional claims (Black Velvet Band is Irish, Two Magicians is Scottish, a tune by a Cornish name must be Cornish, etc.) is an understandable rection to this dis-integration of regional identity - the trouble is it often throws up claims that cannot be substantiated.

Oh dear, I'm sounding like an academic again!

TomB

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Sue Allan
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:57 AM

Jim & Dick ... a good start for looking at Kidson's work would be John Francmanis' article in the 2001 Folk Journal (EFDSS). See also Folkopedia http://folkopedia.efdss.org/Frank_Kidson

(Can't check further as at work!)

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:14 AM

Sue,
Thanks for that I'm sure Dick will find it far more helpful than my non-information.
Now that the house has come alive I have been able to search out the pamphlet I mentioned:
Roy Palmer's extremely useful 'A Checklist of manuscript songs and
tunes collected from oral tradition by Frank Kidson' (EFDSS 1986).
Also an article entitled 'Folk Song and The Folk' by John Francmanis, in 'Folk Song, Tradition, Revival and Recreation' (eds Ian Russell and David Atkinson) Elphinstone Institute, Univ. of Aberdeen, 2004.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: glueman
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:22 AM

TomB makes an excellent point. I don't reckon the phenomenon of de-localisation is late C20th though, though it gained momentum with the disintegration of traditional industries in some areas. 'An excess of unreliable identification' as a dissertation might describe it, dogs folk music and discussions of it, even on the level of nomenclature and basic description.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:47 AM

To experience regional styles, one could do a good deal worse than attending the Willie Clancy Summer School where, in fact, one of the classes, 'The Scope of Irish Music', very ably run for a number of years by Paddy Glackin and Cathal Goan, places very great emphasis on this subject. Together with the large number of tutors and other musicians who have their own local styles e.g. Paddy Glackin, Brendan Begley, Maire O'Keefe, Jackie Daly, Peter O'Loughlin, Mary McNamara, Martin Hayes, the McPeake Family, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, Len Graham, Mairead Ni Domhnaill and far, far too many more to mention, a great deal can be learnt in just one week!

http://www.setdancingnews.net/wcss/

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:48 AM

It is absurd to suggest that because (say) Cumbrian folksong can be studied at postgraduate level within the history department at a given university English folk music and song receive as much emphasis and service by undergraduate studies as Scottish and Irish do -when there are degre courses in the latter but not the former (except as part of a combined degree at Newcastle).

It is equally absurd to suggest that because an aspect of study of English folk music and song might benefit from evaluation of sources and influences from other nations, English folk music and song can only be studied as part of a study of traditional music in general.

As far as I know the possibility of study of folk song under history departments does not include a performance element.

In fact, the arguments of those who seem opposed to the idea of an undergraduate course in English folk music and song seem only to emphasise the need for such a thing.

I am not unfamiliar with university education. I have two degrees (both at undergraduate level) and teach at two universities.

And Doc Tom contradicts himself. In one breath he says "regionality of style is a consequence of local interaction between musicians/singers. This even pertains within the late 20th folk revival - where we can show stylistic commonplaces within a narrow area" but in another he says "the increase in geographic mobility; the dissolution of local support and familial networks (for the general populace rather than the exceptional traveller)- all mitigate (by which I think he means "militate") against the development or even the maintenance of regional characteristics".

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:57 AM

From the Willie Clancy Summer School programme:

"Dúchas an Cheoil: The Scope of Irish Music
A week-long introduction to the Irish musical tradition at the library, St Joseph's Secondary School, Spanish Point. Masters of the instrumental, dancing and singing (Irish and English) traditions will demonstrate and discuss their crafts with students. Paddy Glackin, renowned traditional fiddle player, and Cathal Goan, an authority on traditional singing, will conduct this course."

I attended this course two years running and found it very rewarding (no two years are ever the same owing to the varied input from different students each year)! Not only as an introduction for people just setting out on the journey of the folk music experience, but to those of us who may have been involved in the subject for a number of years, I would say this class would be one of the best weeks ever spent in your life!

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Sue Allan
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:23 AM

No, a history dept does not include any element of performance Richard. But then I have thirty years of experience of performing and 'unofficial' researching under my belt already, so that wasn't what I was looking for. My point was simply that a degree course doesn't need to be LABELLED 'English Traditional Music' to include English traditional music.

I would certainly have no objection to anyone starting a degree course called that though. It just so happens the Newcastle degree course isn't one of them ... perhaps because Universities have to attract as many students as possible, so cover as many bases as possible? In actual fact I know that Northumbrian music is a very important element of the course, but if they advertised it as a 'Traditional Music of the North East' course then they'd be really limiting their market at the outset. Students specialise after that.

The fact that Scottish and Irish universities have UG courses on musics of their respective countries is presumably because they've done their market research and think they can get enough students to run the courses, but it's also a political thing: those countries have historically needed to assert their identities as a response to perceived Anglicisation. Presumably, what you're saying is the English are now in that position? It's a very dodgy wicket though: tunes and songs don't necessarily recognise geographical borders in their travels. To quote theleveller, above "thinking about it, I'd be hard pressed to say what our national sound is."

That was why I started this thread really - as I think it's a much richer experience delving into different regions of England than trying to identify one English tradition, and in some respects makes more sense. The early collectors were set on finding a 'national music', but I really think we've moved beyond that now. As Greg says above, "never was any such animal as "English traditional music". Just various different kinds of "traditional music in England", quite a different concept altogether."

I'm really pleased I started the thread: there have been so many thoughtful and thought-provoking responses. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:49 AM

No Richard - I don't contradict myself - two two things are not mutually exclusive. That's not like you! See you at Broadstairs.
TomB

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

The music I write and perform is often a part of my roots – where I come from, who my ancestors where, the events that have taken place in the area I was born and brought up in. I'd always been led to believe that I was descended from people who worked on the land but I have a fascination with the sea and have written several songs about the Hull whaling industry. It came as a surprise when a cousin, who has been researching the ancestry of one side of my family, informed me that they had a long nautical traditio; several were Hull whalers and one was lost in the Greenland fisheries.

Maybe there's something in the blood as well as in the music. For me, this is what folk music is all about - a personal as well as a regional thing.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

Leveller,
I have some Hull whaling songs somewhere but not from recent tradition. Bert Lloyd once claimed there were songs in the Hull Museums whaling logs much like the ones found in the American whaling logs published by Gale Huntington, BUT I think this was another of Bert's little fancies. I have spoken to long-term curator Arthur Credland and he says there aren't any! The ones I've seen are ships' logs of whales caught, the state of the weather, and reports of other ships met with, full stop.

Dick, the little booklet referred to put together by RoyP shows Kidson's actual oral material was quite small when compared with more recent collections in Yorkshire like the Hudleston Collection. Kidson was an expert on early song of all types. Apart from Traditional Tunes which also contains Scottish material, his other published song collections are gleaned from all sorts of sources. He also had a decent collection of broadsides most of which ended up in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow. If you desire greater detail do ask.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:43 PM

Geoff, is that you levelling? Why can't you use your bloody proper names, you lot?

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

Here Bloody Here,
Robert Zimmermann

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 08 - 04:23 AM

Wexford,Ireland.great tradition of harmonica playing,plus Many unusual carols.
I believe in south wexford there has been a strong french influence.
the Devereux carols.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 04:05 AM

I think regional styles are likely to eventually disappear,unless deliberately learned.
If a player likes a style,is there anything wrong with them learning a style that is not the style from where they originate?
does the fact that a player is living [hypothetically say Sliabh Luchra] mean that the player will be able to play in that style despite the fact they are not born there or spent their childhood there?

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 05:35 AM

"If a player likes a style,is there anything wrong with them learning a style that is not the style from where they originate?"


Nothing wrong with that at all, Cap'n - it's a great way to preserve it. But wouldn't it be a shame if the rich diversity of regional music were to disappear – not just in traditional music but also contemporary songs and tune? This is something that's happening in every walk of life and was why England In Particular was formed. Take a look here:

www.england-in-particular.info.

I can thoroughly recommend the book to anyone interested in the wonderful eclectic variety of everything that makes up England.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:21 AM

Well the thing that strikes me is how much variation in what gets played in sessions in different parts of the country now.
There seem to be some tunes that are recognised everywhere (and usually fought over as to where they came from!), but in each locality you will find tunes that are regullary played there, but are not so often played elsewhere.
When we moved from Somerset to Lancaster I was quite expecting to find some differences, but I find the same level of differences within 30 miles.
What does not quite follow is that the tunes played in each of the sessions are not all of the same regional origin, but different tunes from the same location have travelled in different directions.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 08:07 AM

Thank you, Black belt etc., - one eaxample of precisely my point!
Tom

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM

20:00 Canuinti Ceoil
Documentary series on Irish music asking whether regional trends are at risk of dying out. Joe Byrne explores the rich musical heritage of North Connacht .
tonight at eight pm on tg4,available on web tv.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:10 AM

Irish regional musical styles took a severe knock in the 30s when the 78s began flooding in from America.
I once asked an elderly fiddle/concertina player how far would you have to travel in the old days before the style began to alter significantly.
His reply was "As far as you could ride a bike".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:42 AM

I believe it was Patrick Kelly that said the worst thing that happened to Clare style were the recordings of Micheal Coleman.
But regional styles are still with us.
Comhaltas havent done very much to encourage regional styles either,very often the judges at county fleadhs are better,but when it comes to the regional fleadhs,I get the impression that a homogeonised style seems to get best results.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:56 PM

Cap'n
Agree with you there.
Insisting on a certain way of playing in order to win competitions does not make for varying styles.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 05:48 PM

"Insisting on a certain way of playing in order to win competitions does not make for varying styles."

I've heard complaints from old-time fiddlers in the US about contest fiddling leading to a homogenization of sound and style, and a severe limitation of repertoire.

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 08 - 07:08 PM

http://www.tg4.tv/ regionalmusicfrom north connacht http://www.tg4.tv/then go to canuinti ceol

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:32 AM

Interesting question Cap'n whether because a musician lives in a particular area, would they learn that style? Probably not these days with the external influences and with people usually travelling away. To really get into a local style, doesn't it more or less have to be by osmosis i.e. living in one confined area all one's life, or at least for a greater part of it and then there wouild surely have to be sufficient players in that area maintaining their local style? What chance of that happening these days??

Subject: RE: Regional music
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jun 08 - 03:39 AM

I was reading the 'sleeve' notes on a Mr Fox cd recorded in the 1970s and it talks of Carol Pegg having learnt the Yorkshire syle of fiddle playing from players in the Dales. I'd never known that there was a Yorkshire fiddle style but, as I'm not a fiddle player, I've had fun trying to reproduce it on the cittern