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USA hymn book query
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Subject: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 02 Jun 08 - 12:07 PM I have to write a 'think piece' for a curatorial group involved with next year's Smithsonian Folklife Festival and I'm hoping that US 'Catters can help me with a bit of statistical research. If you have any American hymnals to hand, could you check to see how many Welsh hymns are included? I expect there's be a fair few in the Episopal, Presbyterian, Methodist books. I do have an old American Lutheran hymnal to hand and was surprised to see a couple in there as well. Just as a reference, I've listed a few below which I've found in some Canadian hymn books, but there may be others.
Abergele All Poor Men and Humble Arfon Ar Hyd y Nos/All throught the Night (The) Ash Grove / Llwyn Onn Bangor Blaenwern Bryn Calfaria Caergybi Caersalem Crugybar Cwm Rhondda Dolgelly Eifionydd Ffigysbren Groeswen Gwalchmai Gwalia Helmsley Henllan Hyfrydol Llanfair Llangan Llangloffan Lledrod Llef Malvern Meirionydd Peniel Prysgol Rhosymedre Rhuddlan St Denio St Mary Ton-y-Botel For that matter, if you have any info on other incursion of Welsh music into the USA, feel free to include that as well! Many many thanks in advance. sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie Date: 02 Jun 08 - 07:49 PM I've got eight in "The Book of Psalms for Singing", Reformed Presbyterian Church of north America (1973), and ten in the "Lutheran Book of Worship", Inter-Lutheran Commisiion on Worship (1978). Hope that helps |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jack Campin Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:08 PM Do you know Diehl's Hymn Tune Index? It answers most questions like this. Any good reference library should have it. I have just found a couple of "Walesi nepenek" which I think means "Welsh folk tunes" in a Hungarian Protestant hymn book. So maybe some Welsh tunes got to the US via very distant intermediate sources. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:54 PM Complicating matters further, I have a Welsh hymnal with plenty of English tunes in it. The tunes in the Episcopal Church's Hymnal 1982 that I know are Welsh are Aberystwyth Blaenhafren Bryn Calfaria Cwm Rhondda Ebenezer (Ton-y-Botel) Hyfrydol Llanfair Llangloffan Lledrod Rhosymedre Rhuddlan St. Denio Song 67 American composer David McKinley Williams (1887-1978) was Welsh-born, so his melodies, Malabar, Canticum refectionis, St. Bartholomew's, Christus Rex, and Georgetown can be considered Welsh. This is the first I've seen Helmsley and Bangor classified as Welsh airs. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: GUEST,Lindsay in Wales Date: 02 Jun 08 - 09:58 PM Moody and Sankey, anyone? Might be a place to do some research.... |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:20 PM There's an English web site called Ship of Fools which has a discussion board called Ecclesiantics, which is the site's forum for liturgical and church-music related discussons. There are a number of American and Canadian regulars on that board who might be able to answer your query. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: katlaughing Date: 02 Jun 08 - 10:36 PM I am sure I posted to this right after you started it. It must not have taken. I didn't have much to add except that isn't "All through the night" Welsh? It has been widespread ever since I can remember over here. HeyaT-Bird/Taskemus, welcome back!! |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 02 Jun 08 - 11:17 PM IF...this is for the Smithsonian.
AND ... you would like to establish an intellectual base of knowledge.
THEN .. please OPEN your sources and documentation.
You have listed 37 "Welsh Hymns"
What sources did YOU use to compile the list? BOOK NAME, DATE, PULBLISHER, AUTHOR, TUNE, PAGE, HYMN TITLE and ALTERNATE NAMES.
Be specific for each title you have listed.
IF - Your curatorial group is academicaly serious about their representation you should establish a TEMPLATE (essentially a layout - just like a hymnal) with ALL the refenced slots and attribution filled in.
Sincerely,
IF you don't more than one cat, that is hip, will be laughing up their sleaves. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:59 AM Well, Garg - Sian's list is a pretty good one. I think U.S. choir singers will be familiar with almost all of them, because they're frequently used in U.S. hymnals. I'll check my Catholic hymnals later on. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:05 AM USE A FREAKIN INDEX!!! Diehl will save you days of trekking around library shelves. (There may be others, that's the one I've used). |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:22 AM Yes, thank you, Gargoyle, for your typical response, and thank you, Joe, for yours. Dave MacKenzie, would it be possible for you to tell me which hymns those books have? As I said, this is not an in-depth examination; in fact, it probably won't have more than a sentence in the entire piece. I include it because Welsh hymns play a role in Welsh traditional music which is actually the subject of the piece - which is not for publication. T in O, thanks for that list, and for the reference to David McKinley Williams. I included Helmsley as I only found out about its Welsh connection at a West Gallery Singing weekend last month. Apparently it was a dance tune picked up by Thomas Olivers, Tregynnon (mid Wales)during his debauched youth. He became big friends with John Wesley, turned preacher, and adapted the tune to be a hymn tune. He's credited with the adaptation in The Book of Praise (Canadian Presbyterian) and in some collections it's actually called 'Olivers'. Yet he isn't credited with any musical connections in either the Dictionary of Welsh Biography or in the main Welsh hymn tune reference books. Thanks also for querying 'Bangor' which I've now looked into but haven't quite worked out all the twists and turns. It would seem that a) we may be getting mixed up between two (at least) tunes and b) the Ravenscroft one was described by Ravenscroft himself as a Welsh Tune but subsequent publications have different credits listed ... Again, it may be something I return to eventually but not crucial to the task at hand. Jack, thanks for the mention of Diehl's Hymn Tune Index. I've just Googled it, but the only result is this thread! Would it tell me which American hymn books have the hymns (as that's all I'm interested in at this stage)? What a hoot - the Hungarian reference. I wonder which tunes they are? Kat, yeh, All Through the Night is "Ar Hyd y Nos" and was pretty popular ... well, ... all over, I guess. It was a harp tune and popular throughout Britain in the 18th century - possibly due to the Welsh harpers in London 'Society' (including at Court). In the years of the 20th century when Community Song Books were in vogue, it was widely included along with The Ash Grove (Llwyn Onn), David of the White Rock (Dafydd y Garreg Wen) and Men of Harlech (Gwyr Harlech). I only becamse aware of AHyN and AG as a hymn tunes in the last couple of decades. Still strike me as odd but all part of Ye Olde Folke Processe I guess. Lindsay, I must take a look at Sankey/Moody stuff again. Not sure what I have to hand. I had an old Seth Parker hymnal but that's still back in Canada ... Again, thanks for the input, people. I knew that a lot of the tunes are standards in Canada but I didn't want to just make assumptions about the USA. Even a straw pole of which tunes are familiar to 'Catters is enough for the present purpose; I doubt if hymns will be developed further in the overall project but, if they are, there are far better people than myself to do the research. Many thanks, sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jim Dixon Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:24 AM The Methodist Hymnal; Official Hymnal of the Methodist Church. New York: The Methodist Pub. House, 1939. According to the "Index of composers, arrangers, and sources of tunes": WELSH MELODY 64 Joanna: "Immortal, Invisible, God only wise" WELSH HYMN MELODY 165 Cwm Rhondda: "Look, ye saints! The night is Glorious" 194 Meirionydd: "Come unto me ye weary, And I will give you rest" 263 Ton-Y-Botel: "Once to every man and nation" 279 Cwm Rhondda: "God of grace and God of glory" 301 Cwm Rhondda: "Guide me, O Thou great Jehovah" 406 Ffigysbren: "Friend of the home: as when in Galilee" 418 Llangoedmor: "Father of men, in whom are one" 454 Meirionydd: "The voice of God is calling Its summons unto men" 467 Llangloffan: "Not in dumb resignation We lift our hands on high" |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jim Dixon Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:52 AM Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A., Clarence Dickinson, and Calvin Weiss Laufer. The Hymnal. Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Christian Education, 1933. According to "Index of Composers" : Traditional : Welsh : 41 Ar Hyd Y Nos: "God, that madest earth and heaven" 66 Joanna: "Immortal, invisible, God only wise" 104 Cwm Rhondda: "Guide me, O Thou great Jehovah" 156 Meirionydd: "O Jesus, we adore Thee" 186 Gwalia: "Thou art coming, O my Saviour" 189 Gwalia: "O'er the distant mountains breaking" 222 Llangloffan: "Come unto Me, ye weary" 320 Ffigysbren: "Thou Life within my life" 371 Llangloffan: "Lead on, O King Eternal" 373 Ton-Y-Botel: "Once to every man and nation" 374 Blaenhafren: "We are living, we are dwelling" 417 Rhuddlan: "Judge eternal, throned in splendor" 419 Llangloffan: "O God of earth and altar" 422 Meirionydd: "Light of the world, we hail Thee" Response 30 Llangollen (Lledrod): "Bless Thou the gifts our hands have brought" |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:57 AM Ah! Yes, Jim! I'd forgotten to add Joanna as an alternative title for St Denio! (Also titled Palestina in some Welsh books.) Seems to me there's some complicated story behind it, with the most likely roots including an appearance in 1810 as a popular Welsh ballad, "Can Mlynedd i Nawr" (One Hundred Years from now). Apparently it's also one of only 3 Welsh tunes in the UK Roman Catholic "The Westminster Hymnal" (1940). As it has the ballad connections, it's the sort of thing that ties in with the piece I'm putting together. And thanks very much for the list, and interesting to see the words sung - some familiar, some not so. To^n-y-Botel, a.k.a. Ebenezer, is an interesting one. It was a big favourite in the Great Revival of 19-ought-4 in Wales and Vaughan Williams apparently rated it as one of the top 100 world tunes. (Not sure I'm with him on that, but ...) In 1902 the Daily Mail reported that the tune was found on a paper inside a bottle washed up on the North Wales coast, so it got the name 'The Bottle Tune' (To^n y Botel) but this turned out to be a hoax. It was actually composed by T.J.Williams who was a member of Ebenezer chapel near Pontardawe, s.w. Wales. Bet he wasn't too pleased about the bottle story! sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:04 AM I was writing the above as you were posting your second, Jim! Many thanks, again. You've got me stumped with Blaenhafren. I don't know it and don't see it in my references books, or in the current multi-denomination Welsh hymnal (horrid thing - way too big). I shall have to work my way through the hymn books tonight! Forgot to mention that To^n-y-Botel is also mentioned as a tune for "What a Friend in Jesus" at some point. Doesn't really work for me. sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:18 AM katlaughing, thanks for the welcome back! It's great to be back. The Episcopal Church's Hymnal 1940 had Ar hyd y nos, and some (not all) of the tunes on the Hymnal 1982 list. When I have time I'll do a quick count, unless someone else gets to it before I do. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:46 AM Thanks, T. And apologies: I see you also noted Blaenhafren, which I've now found. It's in the Welsh Congregationists' hymn book, Y Caniedydd, but I've also found the (original?) tune as a dance tune ... which is all grist to the mill! Still, it didn't make the cut into the new (horrible, big, multi-denominational) Caneuon Ffydd so I guess it isn't considered to be in the top 993 tunes in Wales ... sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM I just looked at the main catalogue at www.nls.uk and it's not easy to find that book there. It turns out to be Katherine Smith Diehl Hymns and tunes: an index Scarecrow Press, New York and London, 1966 lv+1185 pages NLS shelfmark Mus.51.28 (not much use to you, they didn't give it an LC classification) It indexes an unbelievable number of books. Unfortunately it *doesn't* have a theme code index so you need additional help if the name of a tune changes - but hymns aren't as bad as folk tunes that way. I used the copy at Edinburgh Public Library. There are a lot of other indexes and histories of hymns out there - do a subject search at your favourite library's online catalogue. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM Thanks, Jack. I'm in Aberystwyth on Tuesday so I may see if I can access a copy at the National Library if I get time. sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:30 AM Here are the Hungarian ones: X:1 T:no. 426 S:Enekeskony Magyar Reformatusok Hasznatalara A:A Magyarorszagi ReformatusEgyhaz Kiadasa, Budapest 1988 C:Walesi nepenekdallam M:C L:1/4 Q:1/4=100 K:G minor D G (G/^F/) (=E/D/)| G A B B|\ c B A G |(B/A/) (G/^F/) G2:| d c B d | c B B A|\ d c B d | c B A2 | D G (G/^F/) (=E/D/)| G A B B|\ c B A G |(B/A/) (G/^F/) G2|] X:2 T:no. 457 C:Walesi dallam S:Enekeskony Magyar Reformatusok Hasznatalara A:A Magyarorszagi ReformatusEgyhaz Kiadasa, Budapest 1988 M:C L:1/4 Q:1/4=100 K:G minor D|G G A A|(B>A) G G| c c B B|A3 D|G G A A|(B>c) d c| B G A ^F|G3 d|d B A c| B2 A G|^F G c B|A3 D|G G A A|(B>c) d c| B G A ^F|G3|] The first sounds familiar to me. Neither sounds at all Hungarian. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM I know them both, but can't remember the tune name for the second one (I'll "phone a friend" tonight or it will drive me mad!) Oddly, the first one is known as "Arfon" in the Welsh hymnals but is credited as being "Alaw Ffrengig" - a French tune! sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:02 PM Had to leaf through 487 tunes but ...Bingo! The other one is Llangloffan, "Alaw Gymreig" (Welsh tune) The reference book, Tonau a'u Hawduron (Tunes & their authors) says that some sources point out a big resemblence to "The Jolly Miller of the Dee"; can't comment as I don't know the song. And how it got into a Hungarian book is anyone's guess! sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: open mike Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:18 PM It is good to know that "All Through the Night" and The Ash Grove are from Welsh roots. Good luck with your project, and I hope the Smithsonian Folklife Festival goes well. When and Where is it to be? www.folklife.si.edu/center/festival.html The Smithsonian sponsored some festivities at a local museum centered around the development of different types of food in different ages. They hold a National Folk Festival, this year's one is in Butte Montana. I guess this video is of a regional festival, not the national one sponsored by Smithsonina...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e9vqx8ujjY here is the national smithsonian one in Butte MT, july 10-12 2008 http://www.nationalfolkfestival.com/ It will be held there for 3 years 2008-2010 (Alice will you be involved??!!) |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: frogprince Date: 03 Jun 08 - 01:46 PM The 1989 United Methodist Hymnal has 6: Llangloffan Arfon The Ash Grove Ar Hyd Y Nos Cwm Rhondda Meirionydd |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:17 PM That Hungarian book lists published sources for almost every OTHER tune it includes, but those two are just "Walesi nepenek". Which suggests they got it direct and orally. Most good hymnbooks have humungous bibliographies. Tunes were passed around Protestant Europe in print for hundreds of years and it's not usually difficult to trace routes of transmission. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:04 PM Here's my quick take on the Episcopal Church's (USA) Hymnal 1940: Aberystwyth Ar hyd y nos Charterhouse Ebenezer (Ton-y-botel) Hyfrydol Llanfair Lanfyllin Lledrod Meirionydd (by William Lloyd--Born in Gloucestershire. I'm guessing based on his name and location that he was of Welsh extraction, which might be taken as making this melody almost-Welsh. ) Rhosymedre St. Denio Song 67 Ton-mân Welsh composer David Evans (1874-1948) who wrote the melodies Ton-mân and Charterhouse, also is the arranger of the Finnish melody Nyland, which appeared both in H1940 and H1982. Welsh-born American composer David McKinley Williams's tunes in H1940 are Malabar Canticum Refectionis Georgetown Non nobis Domine Christus Rex David McK Williams also is the arranger of the Dutch melody called Annunciation |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 03 Jun 08 - 09:19 PM In my list for the Hymnal 1982 I missed David Evans's Charterhouse and Lucerna Laudoniae. The Welsh air Ar hyd y nos can also be considered an Irish air, since it appears in the early-20th century O'Neill collection (#230) under the names Taithneamh na samhradh/The Joys of Summer. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: artbrooks Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:16 PM The Hymnbook, Presbyterian Church in the United States, 1955: Under "Traditional, Welsh" it lists #58 Ar Hyd Y Nos/God, That Medest Earth and Heaven #85 Joanna/Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise #197 Arpon/Throned Upon the Awful Tree #231 Llangloffan/Rejoice, Rejoice, Believers #333 Llangloffan/O Brothers, Lift Your Voices (same Welsh name as the other one) #356 Blaenhafren/We Are Living, We Are Dwelling #511 Llangloffan/O God of Earth and Altar #517 Rhuddlan/Judge Eternal, Throned in Splendor Herself says she thinks there are more, and will look after supper. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Bill D Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:51 PM The only 'incursion' of Welsh music I have personally encountered was a concert by Dafydd Iwan a number of years ago in the Wash DC area.....and as you might guess, he didn't do any hymns. Educational, though. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Jun 08 - 10:58 PM Sian, this link will give you information about Diehl. Alibrish has it for sale for $159.93. It's tempting, but not THAT tempting... Lots of (free) hymn indexes on this page (click). Oh, and there's a very nice hymn tune index at Christian Classics Ethereal Library. -Joe, songbook addict- I looked in the St. Gregory Hymnal (1920) and the Pius X Hymnal (1953). I saw no Welsh hymns at all in these Catholic hymnals published before Vatican II - indeed, there were no hymns at all that had any inkling of Protestant roots. I think there were a couple of Catholic hymnals published in the very late 1950's that used a few Protestant hymns. The 1994 edition of the (Catholic) Gather Hymnal from GIA (Gregorian Institute of America) has Ar Hyd Y Nos, Ash Grove, Hyfrydol, Llanfair, St. Denio, and I have a copy of Sankey's Gospel Hymns Nos. 1 to 6 Complete (1894) - alas, no tune index. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Jim Dixon Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:21 PM WorldCat might help you find this book in a library near you: Diehl, Katharine Smith. Hymns and Tunes; an Index. New York: Scarecrow Press, 1966. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jun 08 - 02:29 AM Here's what I see in the 1996 edition of Choral Praise Comprehensive, published by OCP (Oregon Catholic Press): AR HYD Y NOS: Day Is Done For the Fruits of This Creation HYFRYDOL Alleluia Sing to Jesus Hear Us Now, Our God and Father Love Divine, All Loves Excelling LLANFAIR Christ the Lord Is Risen Today Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise And the list from Gather (GIA, 2004): AR HYD Y NOS: Day Is Done ASH GROVE Let All Things Now Living HYFRYDOL Alleluia Sing to Jesus Love Divine, All Loves Excelling LLANFAIR Christ the Lord Is Risen Today Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:08 AM Here's what I found in Singing the Living Tradition, the Unitarian Universalist Hymnal published in 1993: AR HYD Y NOS Sleep, My Child BANGOR O Prophet Souls of All the Years CWM RHONDDA God of Grace and God of Glory HYFRYDOL Hail the Glorious Golden City Years Are Coming Earth Was Given As a Garden LLANFAIR Lo, the Day of Days Is Here MEIRIONYDD The Morning Hangs a Signal O Young and Fearless Prophet MERTHYR TYDFIL O Earth, You Are Surpassing Fair ST. DENIO Sound Over All Waters Immortal, Invisible |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:04 AM There are lots in the 1995 New Century Hymnal from the Pilgrim Press (United Church of Christ): ABERYSTWYTH Watcher, Tell Us of the Night AR HYD Y NOS Go, My Children, With My Blessing Wake, My Soul For the Fruit of All Creation BRYN CALFARIA Christ, Enthroned in Heavenly Splendor CWM RHONDDA Guide Me, O My Great Redeemer God of Grace and God of Glory HYFRYDOL We Have Come At Christ's Own Bidding Alleluia! Gracious Jesus! God the Spirit, Guide, and Guardian LLANFAIR Jesus Christ Is Risen Today LLANGLOFFAN O God of Earth and Altar MEIRIONYDD O Come to Me, You Weary RHOSYMEDRE My Song Is Love Unknown O God, Whose Steadfast Love ST. DENIO Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise God Made From One Blood THE ASH GROVE Sent Forth By God's Blessing It also uses a tune called WELWYN - that sounds Welsh to me, by Welwyn in in Hertfordshire. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:18 AM Thanks to all of you for this bountiful harvest! Some surprises, as well. T, interesting that you have Wm. Lloyd born in Glos. where my ref. books agree that he was b. in Llaniestyn, Caernarfonshire. He was a farmer and a perapetitic singing teacher; apparently he learned about classical music when he spent a lot of time in England as a drover. The original title of the piece was 'Berth'. I wonder what Song 67 is? I know David Evans as a composer tho' those two pieces aren't familiar here. What surprised me is that he wrote 'Madrid' (Come, Children, Join to Sing); I had no idea that it was one of his, as it is styled "possibly Spanish" in my old United Church of Canada book. I see that the newer UCC/Anglican book left it out completely; don't get me started on the 'modernization' of hymnbooks! When I get a minute, I'm going to look into David McKinley Williams further. Don't think I ever met him, and the hymn tunes aren't familiar but I'll browse through some Welsh books to see if they're included. There were several Welsh composers in the States and Canada who produced tunes which became blockbusters over here. artbrooks, interesting that Blaenhafren ('the source of the Severn river') is in your book too, and yet it isn't a 'runner' in most Welsh collections that I can see. frogprince, interesting that the Methodist book has relatively few. I would have expected a biggish Welsh influence in the Methodists. There ya go! Thanks, Jim and Joe, for the further references for the hymn index/indices. I'm lucky that I'm 50 miles or so from our National Library which is officially a 'receiving library' so all books published in the UK (and a fair number from elsewhere) must be lodged in their collection. My problem is finding the time to spend there! BillD, don't make any assumptions about Dafydd Iwan - he used to be a Sunday School teacher and his dad was a minister. It's interesting that Llanfair turns up in a number of books. I use it often as an example of an undeniably composed piece maintaining specific 'national' traits. (Sorry - don't know a better way of putting that.) A large number of old tunes collected and published in Wales prior to 1850 - over 20% - used a very limited range of notes. Within those quite a few were within a range of 7, and even within 5. Llanfair is basically written within a 5 note range, only rising to a 6th note in one place, but is a stunningly effective tune. Usually, I follow this by pointing out that any Welsh high school student taking music composition would end up getting marked down for lack of aspiration/imagination if they tried to compose with a limited range ... but I'll stay off that high horse for now. openmike, the programme we are working on is for the Washington DC festival next June/July. I think Tanzania is the other invited nation. The Welsh 'theme' (as set by our government - don't get me started on that either) will be 'Sustainability'. If I've forgotten anyone, it isn't for want of appreciation. This is all a huge help. Thanks! sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:15 PM Song 67 was one of the airs that appeared in George Wither's (1588-1667) Hymnes and Songs of the Church (London, 1623.) Most of the music in that book is by Orlando Gibbons (1583-1625), so the melody as it appears there may have been selected, adapted, and harmonized by Gibbons. Anyhow, two years previous to its appearance in Hymnes and Songs of the Church, the melody appeared in Edmwnd Prys's (d. 1623) Llyfr y Psalmau (London, 1621.) Since the air was first printed in a Welsh-language book, I take it as a Welsh air. |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie Date: 10 Jun 08 - 08:20 PM Sorry I've taken so long to get back, but I've been away visiting the family. The hymns listed in the Psalm Book are Aberystwyth Bryn Calfaria Cwm Rhondda Ebenezer Hyfrydol Joanna Llangloffan and I think I must have counted St Asaf as Welsh. The Lutherans Had Aberystwyth Ar hyd y Nos Bryn Calfaria Cwm Rhondda Ebenezer Hyfrydol Llanfair Llangloffan Rhosmedre Rhuddlan St Denio The Ash Grove Ton-y-Botel I must buy a new abacus! I've got an English print of Sankey's "Sacred Songs & Solos" and all I can see is Aberystwyth and Deva(?) Pob lwc |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: sian, west wales Date: 11 Jun 08 - 04:33 AM Thanks, Dave. I would think that St Asaf was Welsh, but I'll check. I'm putting all this info into an appendix to the piece, as well as including a link to this thread. The piece has to be in in the next couple of days so many, many thanks to all who have contributed. sian |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:21 PM Of interest in this context might be: The air Ar hyd y nos, under the name Welch, appeared in William Walker's Southern Harmony, Revised Edition (1854). |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 21 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM I had not responded when this was first posted as I was home so little and my hymnals were boxed up but was a bit concerned that so few Welsh melodies were reported in Methodist Hymnals. As it is I cannot add much but did find the following in the 1989 Methodist Hymnal. The index only listed five Welsh folk melodies but scanning through the index produced the whole list. In addition, there are three responses by Robert Williams who is credited with the melody, Llanfair. 127 CWM Rhondda Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah 196 Hyfrydol Come Thou Long-Expected Jesus 312 Llanfair Hail The Day That Sees Him Rise 425 Llangloffan O Crucified Redeemer 428 CWM Rhondda For The Healing Of The Nations 435 Llangloffan O God Of Every Nation 436 Meirionydd The Voice Of God Is Calling 447 Rhosymedre Our Parent By Whose Name 479 Aberystwyth Jesus Lover Of My Soul 541 Arfon See How Great A Flame Aspires 577 CWM Rhondda God Of Grace and God of Glory 648 Hyfrydol God The Spirit, Guide And Guardian 688 Ar Hyd Y Nos God That Madest Earth And Heaven 664 The Ash Grove Sent Forth By God's Blessing 767 Response Robert Williams 781 Response Robert Williams 859 Response Robert Williams |
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Subject: RE: USA hymn book query From: GUEST,DMcKW successor Date: 24 Jul 08 - 08:32 PM Alghough David McK. Williams was indeed born in Wales, he was brought to Denver, Colorado before the age of one, so any qualification of his hymntunes as "Welsh" seems far-fetched! They are fine, sturdy tunes of course--just not Welsh. Probably mostly written while he was Organist at St. Bartholomew's in New York City. Some were specifically for the 1940 hymnal. (One was written to be included in the 1982 hymnal, published after his death.) I am the music director at the church in Denver where Williams became organist in 1900--at the age of 13! (It's still a tiny congregation.) |
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