Folk Music and History

Subject: Folk Music and History
From: Murrbob
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

Just wondering if anyone else has used folk music to teach history.
    A few years back, I talked the college where I was a biology prof into funding a course entitled "A Folk Music Tour of Scotland." (The Music Dept. was a little put-off that a mere biologist was encroaching on their domain!)
    Using recordings by The Corries, Old Blind Dogs, North Sea Gas, Gaberlunzie and others, we would meet weekly, discuss 3 works/class,determine if the song was accurate or a bit of propaganda, and then mark on a large map of Scotland where the event took place.
    At the end of the semester, the students and I flew to Scotland for a 10-day trip following the "folk music marks" we had made on the map. It was great.
    College kids can learn and retain lyrics to pop music incredibly well. What fun it was to put talents to learing a little bit about the history/culture of my favorite country!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

Murrbob,

Interpreting history & culture through music is pretty much what I do for my living here in the northeastern US, and there are many more of us doing it as well. Lots of work with elementary school kids during the school year, and then historical societies, museums, libraries, etc on the weekends/weeknights. I'm off in about a half hour to sing songs of the Erie Canal and the Great Lakes for an Elderhostel group visiting Buffalo NY. For me, it's a perfect way to combine several interests, stay out of the bars (mostly), and be home with my kids & wife most nights.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

Isn't that why the Battle of New Orleans song was written?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 06:25 PM

When I returned to college in early 1963, after two years in the army, I had sharpened an interest in folk music to the point of wanting a better sense of its history and origins. I had been performing in coffee houses and was part of a trio. Fresno State, in central California, had two wonderful professors of english, Peter Everwine and Gene Bluestein, who taught classes that addressed the subject. Peter is a widely published and admired poet who still resides there. Gene, unfortunately, passed on some years ago. His son, Evo, is very active in folk circles today, however, in the extended folk family of Fresno.

From their classes I learned material, of course, and picked up songs that I could sing and share. More important, however, was finding context that brought meaning where only rote memory served previously. It is a lesson I never forgot and which continues to add depth and enjoyment on top of the songs themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:49 AM

The Battle of Cromdale took place at the end of the Scots Jacobite rebellion of 1698. In May of that year a 1,500 strong Jacobite army encamped near the Haughs of Cromdale on the banks of the River Spey; haugh being a Scots word for a flat meadowland beside a river.

The ballad, "The Haughs of Cromdale", which appeared shortly after the battle, describes how the Jacobite army was ambushed by Government forces and, despite stiff resistance, was forced to retreat is disarray. It goes on to tell how the Scots re-grouped under James Graham, the Marquis of Montrose, returned and soundly defeated the enemy forces. The ballad became a great favourite throughout Highland Scotland, and soon after its composition was being sung all over The North.   
It is still to be found as a march in the repertoires of the pipe bands of the Highland regiments.

Essentially, the facts presented in the ballad are true; the Scots army was routed at Cromdale and General Montrose did lead an army against the English and defeated them. Unfortunately, the second battle described in the ballad took place 43 years before the first, and General Montrose had been dead for over forty years before the defeat at Cromdale. It appears that the unknown ballad maker, unable to accept such an ignominious defeat, joined two different battles together making the rebel army the final victors, thus playing a part in keeping the Jacobite cause alive for another 48 years until the final defeat at Culloden in 1746 under "Bonnie Prince Charlie".

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 02:58 AM

Sorry,
That should have come with an explanation.
Some years ago I gave a talk to our local history group on history and song; I found the research for it fascinating.
Because of their oral nature, the songs are notoriously unreliable for carrying standard history, factual details, dates, names, locations etc., but as a piece of social history, and as an indication of what people were thinking and feeling at the time, they are second to none.
The best example I could find of how a song had been used to 'manipulate' history for political purposes was with the Scots Jacobite song, 'The Haughs of Cromdale'.
Now read on......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 03:08 AM

The role of folk song is often not so much the accurate recording oif events as maintaining a group identity. In the thread on historical characters known better from folk song than history books, Admiral Benbow came up, and I think someone suggested that he was popular because he had risen throuigh the ranks, rather than by the political and financial advantage of an aristocratic family. Hence his greater appeal to ordinary seamen and the survival of songs about him.

Similarly, one popularly accepted version of Irish history was maintained by songs like Sean South, that one about Flor Begley, Ballaneety's Walls, Ned of the Hill, the Wearing of the Green and so on. The incidents in the songs may not have been very accurately delineated, but their cultural importance is undeniable.

There was probably a similar "alternative history" maintained by some British industrial songs, particularly the persistence of older songs like the Dudley Boys, about an 18th century(?) food riot, no longer relevant but perhaps kept in circulation as a sort of group memory of what a community could do if necessary.

And of course we modern folkies have our own mythologised histories, which influence the songs we choose to remember (or write- Bill Prince's song about the Pentrich rebellion being an example).

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:30 AM

I would always sneak a folksong reference into the history courses I taught. My first conference paper was entitled 'English folk song and the Aspirations of the Working Class' and I included verses from a couple of songs in my PhD thesis.

My most effective use of folk song came when I was teach the History of Crime and Punishment on our Criminology degree course and had to cover for an absent colleague. I gave an impromptu lecture on songs including broadside ballads purporting to be the last words of the condemned man, songs about poaching, and transportation etc. This resulted in one student writing her final year dissertation on crime and punishment as represented in folk song. It was highly praised by the extrenal examiners for the originality of the topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 04:45 AM

It's a fascinating topic - I'm quite jealous of those students! - but do take what the songs say with a bucket of salt: it's definitely a case of "if the facts don't fit the legend, print the legend". (Lord Marlborough wasn't ennobled until after Charles II's time, never went to Newfoundland and died at home in bed.)

There's another, larger red flag which I'd hoist over the ballad sources in particular. A lot of the old songs aren't based on any history we know, but seem to be loaded with historical and geographical detail - there's the king of Eastermuir, the king of Westermuir and the king of Honorie, surely we should be able to place them on a map? we know the guy was knighted, we know his surname was something like Spens and we know what happened to him, surely we should be able to work out when? You can waste an awful lot of time like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:01 AM

Totally agree, Phil. I always stressed that the songs simply give us a tantalising but blurred view of the past and the way (some)people thought about events or situations. An example - Victoria's marriage to Albert in 1840 was unpopular in some quarters, witness the chorus of one song:

Oh I'm the lad so gay and tight
and I have done the trick so right
Collared the shining gold so bright
And married the Queen of England.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:09 AM

Terry - actually I was replying to Murrbob, but my appreciation (& jealousy) covers your course as well!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:10 AM

Ooops, sorry!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:24 AM

"You can waste an awful lot of time like that."
Not really a waste of time Phil, any more than Shakespeare's 'Historical' plays are.
They are an essential part of our culture, and quite often cover bits that the history books missed altogether.
If I wanted to find out who were the main players in the Battle of Trafalgar, I would go to the history books and Naval records; if I wanted to know how it felt for a pressed farmworker to find himself in the middle of a horrific sea battle, I would go to the songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:54 AM

I remember doing an essay on American Agriculture using folk song and getting an A for originality.

But it was a while ago now!

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 05:55 AM

Sorry be cause I meant to add anyone wanting to do this would find Roy Palmer's books a great resource and certainly a wonderful starting point for research.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:34 AM

Jim - I agree with everything you say, but I still think it would be a waste of time to try and pin down where the Kingdom of Honorie was or when Sir Patrick Spens set sail. It's a different kind of knowledge.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:43 AM

I go along with that - but quite often the songs are all you've got.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:12 AM

Many years ago I ran a course with the keeper of local history at Plymouth Museum called 'Plymouth, the Story and the Song'. We visited local historical spots and told the stories and sang the songs associated with that particular place. One memorable evening was spent sitting in the candle lit light glass of Smeatons Tower on Plymouth Hoe with a storn raging outside doing the stories and songs of the sea.   Eventually a TV series called the Phoenix and the Leviathon was made, based on the idea, which we did the music for. I also ran much the same thing based on the songs and dances in Thomas Hardy novels. Both courses were run under the auspices of WEA and were sold out many times over.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Murrbob
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:51 AM

For songs playing havoc with reality, just consider some of the American folk ballads eulogizing some really rotten people: Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Ma Barker, et al.
    I should mention that my trip to Scotland with students was greatly enhanced by having previously met a wonderful retired history teacher from the Inverness area; he accompanied my group the whole time we were there (in fact, did a lot of the driving since he didn't trust me on the "wrong" side of the road).

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:54 AM

I learned all kinds of American history through folk songs - That's why I knew that the ones wearing blue had won the Civil War (boy, was my Dad appalled when he realized I didn't know if that was the North or the South...) - I also thought I knew that the Alamo was a great victory, I mean, all those songs about remembering it!

But seriously, yes, one can learn a lot from folk songs, and it's a fun way to learn.

Coming from me who doesn't think school is supposed to be fun...

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 06:13 PM

Some would argue that folk music IS history - a kind of living history. I have taken courses in college that treated it much like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 07:10 PM

Murrbob,
I did what you are talking about---utilize folk songs to illustrate history --- for over two decades.

If you will go to my photos website at
http://rudegnu.com/art_thieme.html

Then enter the word 'mudcat' as both the 'password' and 'user name'. That will get you into my photos.

Go to SEARCH and put in the word map. Then you will be able to see a map of the USA that I used in student workshops after I had done folk song presentations in their school.

There are no place names on the map; only song titles printed over the places where they had originally come into being or were precipitated. We would travel geographically across the United States and I would show how my repertory of songs from times past often illustrated and illuminated the whole folklife of a given area if only we would look between the lines at what the song was telling us.

Sam Hinton, a fine folksinger and a mentor of mine from San Diego, California liked my map idea--and he made up his own map from the folk songs in his repertory to use in classroom situations. You could easily do the same.------ Sam's map is there in my collection too.

I'm sure you know that it's often less than accurate history in these songs.

The songs reflect the fantasies and the baggage the creators of the songs brought with them----along with certain realities -- and some facts too. And the machinations and changes wrought by the FOLK PROCESS will always make for fascinating variations in versions of songs.

All the best to you. It's a wondrous road you are on.

Folksingers / historians not only can go from here to there; they can also go back in time! Soooo, time travel is possible after all.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 08:24 PM

One great inspiration is incomprehensibility.

Most of what I've looked at in this area is about the history of Edinburgh. Most of that was about the connotations of instrumental music, and when I dealt with songs they were usually broadsides long forgotten.

Pick an instrumental tune: William Marshall's reel "The Illumination 9th Feb 1781". What the heck is that about? You need to look at local newspapers to find out. The story turns out to be an explosively dramatic one, marking Edinburgh's moment in a series of events when Britain came close to all-out insurrection.

Or a broadside about a hastily adapted prison camp near Edinburgh for French captives of the Napoleonic War:

The moon o'er the waves of the North throws her glory
And brightens the snow wreaths on proud Pentland high,
Whilst cold, under arms, I view, leafless and hoary,
The dark wood that answers the sentinel's cry.

But what are my sufferings, though cold, wet and weary,
And round me the rude blasts of insult blaw shrill
To theirs who're confined in the dungeon so dreary
And wail life away in the gloom of Esk Mill...

As it happens, we can date that one, purely on internal evidence, within about three weeks. The mill was so rickety it came close to crumbling into a heap of rubble on top of the prisoners and was hastily abandoned. But it was open just long enough for an anonymous Scottish broadside writer to take up the issue of how the prisoners were being treated.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 03:30 AM

Can I put in an unsolicited plug for Jack Campin's excellent musical history CD, Embro, Embro, here? An absolute haggismine of fascinating information, tunes, songs and history.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 04:50 AM

Ye Gods, Jack - that's stunning. The only thing that puts me off writing a cheque here and now is that I'm afraid I'd be doing nothing but Edinburgh material for the next ten years - there's certainly enough there.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:05 AM

There's a good Canadian book titled (I think) Singing Our History which is a collection of songs divided into periods of history, with each chapter prefaced by historical background about the time, the songs and the tunes. I think it's a crackin' good book, myself.

I've read somewhere that history is what you get in the textbooks and official documents. Usually written by those who ended up with the upper hand; what songs and stories provide is 'memory', that which lives in the survivors, rather than the conquerors.

Actually, it's reflected in something Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sachs said in a BBC piece in March 07 (I liked it so I wrote it down):

"… Why do we take the trouble to remember events long past, when the battle is over, the cause won, and slavery in most parts of the world is consigned to history?

"One of the fascinating facts about the Hebrew Bible is that its writers were amongst the first historians; two thirds of its books are about history; and yet ancient Hebrew had no word for history. Instead, the Bible uses a different word – zachar – memory – and there's a difference between history and memory. The way I've heard it is that history is 'his story', something that happened sometime else to someone else. But memory is 'my story', it is part of who I am, which is why on Passover we do not just retell the story, we enact it in the food we eat and the way we sit as if we were there in Egypt all those centuries ago. Passover is a festival of memory, and we believe in handing our memories on to our children, as our parents did for us. …

"… Memory is our satellite navigation system as we make our way across the wilderness of time … "

I guess like most sat-navs, trad songs can sometimes get us stuck under a low bridge in a country lane but nobody ever said life was perfect!

sian

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 08:16 AM

Ugh, why do people always have to break up the word history?? At least he didn't take it as the his/her story.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

My favourite 'historical' song is 'Captain Ward and the Rainbow'.

Apparently, in the early Seventeenth century, a certain English sailor and mutineer called John Ward (who was from Kent, if I recall correctly) somehow managed to get himself a new career as a pirate out of the North African port of Tunis. I seem to remember Louis Killen saying that he actually became 'Bey' (an Ottoman title meaning approximately 'Duke') of Tunis. It's probable that he would have been identified with the 'Barbary Corsairs' and it's also probable that he converted to Islam.

At some point he and his crew captured a Venetian treasure ship worth £90,000,000 in today's money (the biggest 'heist' of the Seventeenth century!).

And then he tried to buy himself a pardon from James 1 of England. This could have been because the succession to the Ottoman Sultanate (Tunis was an Ottoman possession) was in disarray at the time. I tentatively suggest that maybe some Ottoman official, freed from central control, and more powerful and meaner than Ward was, fancied helping himself to the loot(?) Anyway before the situation could resolve itself Ward died of the plague c.1620.

According to Roy Palmer, a few years later, Charles 1 of England sent a warship, under the command of a Captain Rainsborough, to sort out the Barbary Corsairs who had been harrying the sea lanes around Malta.
He was quite successful in this endeavour but, at the end of the Seventeenth century, the ballad writers managed to conflate these two separate stories and came up with the ballad of 'Captain Ward and the Rainbow'. Hence, in the ballad, we get Ward the pirate offering to buy a pardon and then having to engage in a sea fight with a ship called 'The Rainbow' (rather than 'Capt. Rainsborough').

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 11:10 AM

You wouldn't have given a rendition of that song at a South Manchester singaround recently, by any chance?

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:08 PM

Where? I'm from the East Midlands, actually.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:36 PM

Ah. Somebody gave a rather fine rendering of that song, complete with a bit of background about Rainsborough, at the Beech in Chorlton a couple of singarounds ago. I guess that wasn't you.

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: Doc John
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM

I've learned quite a bit of history from folk songs - some of it wrong, of course - because history teaching was so bad and folk songs interesting. So excellent idea with caution. Jesse James robbed the rich but I'm sure didn't give to the poor (unlike Sam Bass, I'm told) and Mary, Queen of Scots, did have Four Marys but two were not called Carmichael and Hamilton, nor was the latter a child killer. I'm sure a book could be written of how and why the alteration occured. As was said above we can no more write off folk songs as a method of learning history than we can - in my view unfortunately - write of Shakespear. Folk songs are v good for pub quizzes: I have been known to name all the assassinated US Presidents and their assassins thanks to Bascom Lamar Lundsford.
Doc John

Subject: RE: Folk Music and History
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 01:57 PM

Probable? I'm pretty sure that John Ward DID convert to Islam, wouldn't have gotten anywhere without doing so. Sabatini used him as the model for the protagonist in the Sea Hawk, setting the story a little after the Armada.