BS: Dealing with death denial.

Subject: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,A Mudcatter
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:37 PM

Using the guest route to stay anonymous to SOME of my friends here. Some of you will figure out who I am in an instant.

My brother is dying. I know he is dying. I was with him an hour ago. I am guessing weeks.

His wife was smiling and joking. She was washing his baseball caps for when he gets better.

I talked to my mother after I visited. I just said that he was looped from the increase in meds on Monday and again today. She said she hopes the morhpine, the oxycontin, the... help him through the pain until he gets better.

I just got off the phone. My best friend said that the modern treatment is amazing and he may be "out of it now", but, that's just because the effects of the treatment have to be countered with pain meds that and my brother will come out of this just fine.

I told my brother that I loved him and I held his hand.

Why can't they do the same? for his sake?

Sorry about being so heavy, but, here it is. Do I go along with them or do I tell them to acknowledge the (possible) truth and have their final words? Not his wife, of course, but the other friends and relatives.

Your advice would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:42 PM

You keep telling him you love him and you keep holding his hand. The other folks will need you later.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Janie
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:46 PM

Peace has it exactly right.

Holding all of you in my thoughts.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: MMario
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:47 PM

They probably already know the truth; denial is a common coping mechanism; but often it is only a surface mannerism.

Peace had the best advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Beer
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:51 PM

I lost a friend about 3 weeks ago of over 40 years and your story is very similar. His children were accepting the inevitable but this wife was having difficulty with it. I believe that Peace has summed it up very well. You will be the person they rely on.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 02:52 PM

I agree. Keep doing what you are doing with your brother. The others will sort it out when they are ready to handle it and that may not be until they are confronted with the irrefutable fact of his death. Some folks just are not strong enough to face it, esp. when their loved one is still here.

Sometimes a person's personal spiritual beliefs won't allow them to believe things cannot go "their" way no matter what.(That's where the caveat "this or something better for the highest good of all concerned" comes in handy.) If I were you, I wouldn't confront them or try to force them to face things. Let things be between you and your brother and know we, your friends, are here to help in any way we can.

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:09 PM

My guess is that if you brought up the topic of death that they would shoot it down quick. But you might try bringing it up just in case they really DO want to talk about and they just don't want to be the first to mention it. Other than that you 'll just have to keep "doing the next right thing". Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:10 PM

People deal as they deal... which, for some, is not at all. It is very American, I find, to deny death...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:11 PM

What Peace said. And Elizabeth Kubler-Ross defined 5 stages of grief. Denial is the first.

   1. Denial:
          * Example - "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening."
   2. Anger:
          * Example - "Why me? It's not fair!" "NO! NO! How can you accept this!"
   3. Bargaining:
          * Example - "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything, can't you stretch it out? A few more years."
   4. Depression:
          * Example - "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die . . . What's the point?"
   5. Acceptance:
          * Example - "It's going to be OK."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, 'On Death and Dying', 1969
If we're lucky, we make it to the acceptance stage. A lot of people don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Bee
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM

Yes, Peace is right. Your sister in law very probably knows the truth but cannot bear to speak it. I've watched my own mother go through this kind of intense denial while my father lay dying. I hope she is able to give your brother what, if anything, he now needs - which may even be her cheerful voice and face, and she may know that.

I am sorry you are facing this sad event, and wish you the best way through it and after.

I've just had a close friend, a good man, die after more than a year of knowing he had no chance of surviving. I have the deepest admiration for he and his wife, because unlike many, they did face up to it, and worked to prepare each other. Near the end, everything in order that could be put in order, they spent weeks listening to music and talking endlessly, all day long and into the nights, about their lives together, reviving memories and collecting in their minds all the good times, all their fine youth, all their children's triumphs and foolishness. It has been one of the most courageous endings I've witnessed.

At the very end, the only thing he wished for was to hear her calm voice and know she sat with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: gnu
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:24 PM

Same thing with me when my dad passed. Everything was gonna be fine. I knew is wasn't. But, I clammed up and nodded agreement. I was the one that was by his side for most of time in the last few months and for every minute in the last few days and nights. It's hard, but, I guess, as has been said, it's the best way. Just look at the floor and shuffle yer feet.... and "be there".

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM

I think you need to choose your words to each individual on a case by case basis. There are delicate turns of phrase--"if he makes it through this, he'll make it through anything." or some such--but the more the truth is faced, the better the participants will be for it. This does not justify pushing truth down their gullets when they can't experience it easily. But it's an indiividual call, not a general policy.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:29 PM

'Tain't no point in fighting it, because everyone (except me*)is going to die. All you can do is keep doing what Peace suggested and when the time comes help the other grieve. Grief counseling and/or grief support groups might also be useful, for you included.


















*The destination I'm told I'm bound for doesn't appeal to me, so I don't think I'll make the trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: fat B****rd
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:47 PM

I have nothing to add to the above, especially Peace's words, except to offer my best regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 04:27 PM

Peace is right. You do not need to show anyone the light of anything except your love and your presence. Yet I know how hard it can be to be confronted with what one is certain is denial, if one is as forthright person. What DOES one say?!?!?!?!

Here's a phrase that is true, and is also about as specific as you actually need to be. "I don't know.... I only know that I love you [him], and that I need to be here with you [him]."

Some people manage to convey that all, in just a wordless hug. But there are words that are true, and yet that neither agree with nor nor argue with the denial.

Another true phrase is, "It's hard right now, isn't it. I'm so grateful to be included, because I love you all so much."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

The other alternative is to speak your own truth as your own: "I'm afeared he's dying and I hate it...".



A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 04:49 PM

One more endorsement of what Peace said ~ what else can you do?

However: I don't understand why every single respondant assumes that our friend the OP is right and everyone else in the family is wrong. Maybe his/her brother is going to recover.

I went through a bout with cancer several years ago. The tumor was in my throat (on the right tonsil), and a characteristic of all "head-and-neck" cancers is that the treatment is incredibly debilitating even though eventual recovery is actually quite likely.

I was absolutely sure I would come through (as my doctors assured me), and my immediate family seemed to share my optimism. However, very many friends and associates were convinced I was on the way out, some of them avoiding all contact with me because they couldn't handle it.

I had a synthetic morphine patch on my arm and a feeding tube in my stomach, took painkiller pills three times a day (crushed up and fed into me through the tube), lost 75 pounds in just a couple of months, and was generally out-of-it for the better part of a year. But I'm OK now, probably healthier than before ~ mostly because i've only gained back about hallf the weight I dropped while I was sick.

Of course, brother-man is going to die ~ someday ~ just as all of us will. (Yes, even you, Rap, and most unbeliveably of all, even me). In the meanwhile, do what feels right, absolutely tell him you love him, but don't give up on the possibility that you might be wrong and that the rest of the family is not so crazy in their optimism. And certainly, don't criticize them for acting on a different set of assumptions than yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM

A few years back, a friend of mine was dying of cancer. She was in the final ward at the hospital where they were keeping her comfortable. Her husband and sister were in total denial - too many details to share. But they actually left for dinner with plans to visit her in the morning.

Her son's baby was born that day and they were refusing to tell her if it was a boy or a girl so that she would be surprised when her son visited two weeks later. We told her and she slipped into a deep coma.

The husband and sister were inconsolable because they weren't with her at the end. It was bizarre. The nurses kept saying that she was dying and they kept asking what meds she would be given to bring her around.

It was the only way they could cope with situation - denial.
Let them deal with the loss in their own way and spend your emotional energy on your brother.
So sorry . I have all my siblings and hope to for a long time.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

Another vote for Peace's advice. Just be there for support if you are right.

Good thoughts from Maine to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:04 PM

Each person is an individual no one has a right to inflict theirway of dealing with someone on anyone else. the best advise anyone ever gave me at that time was "If ye love them , love them. If ye don't, don't fake it"

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 05:10 PM

I just finished watching the 'Bucket List'.

It is a rare gem of film art that can make you laugh and cry simultaneously.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

My two best girlfriends died a year apart, both from different forms of cancer. In both cases, my girlfriends' family members were basically in denial.

My first girlfriend was also in denial about her terminal illness. I was with her at her oncologist's appointment when he told her that there was nothing else that there were no other treatments that could be done. Yet,though she didn't do this with me, among her family and her other friends, she still she talked about what she would do when she got better. A couple of times I would carefully ask her if she "wanted to talk about things" and she would say no. But after I carefully brought up the idea of hospice program, she agreed to have those services come to her home where she had asked to return to. And she asked me to help her young adult children "take care of things". She died in her home like she wanted to, I was the first person the hospice nurses aid called, and to the best of my ability, I helped her daughter and son "take care of things".


When the person who is dying is in denial, this may make it difficult for her or him to receive the medical and social services that she or he needs. In the case of my second girlfriend, for example, another friend and I had difficulty convincing her family that she needed to go into a hospice program. They didn't want to admit that hospice was needed because it felt too much like "giving up". Thank goodness, my girlfriend was able to speak up for herself and said that "It was time". If we had waited much longer, she would not have been able to intercede for herself, and I shudder to think how it would have been for her to remain in a underserved nursing home where her family had moved her when her illness became too severe for her to remain at home.

In contrast to the experience of my first girlfriend-first in that she and I had been best girlfriends the longest, and first because she was the first of my best friends to die-my second girlfriend talked about the fact that she was dying to me and to another one of her girlfriends. She would talk about her body shutting down, and would talk about good times that she had had in her life. Also, she wanted to talk about life after death. For instance, I shared with her the results of a psychic reading I had had years ago with a woman I didn't know from Eve. That psychic told me that an older man came into the room when I entered. She then gave a physical description that fit my grandfather to a "t", and told me that he had died in pain, and pointed to the area where he felt the pain. The psychic reader also repeated what he told her about play activities that he had done with my sisters and me when we were children such as pretending to find a quarter in our ears, and cutting out newspapers to make paper dolls who were holding hands. And what was even more evidentiary to me, the psychic reader described the player piano that "played by itself" that my grandfather had in the hallway of his home. I shared with my girlfriend that in that psychic reading my grandfather described to the psychic that he was taking classes in a school that was in a beautiful small college-like setting. I still remember my girlfriend saying "That works for me". The fact that I believed this description was true may have helped her believe it, or maybe it was just something that she-and I-wanted to believe. But I'm glad that my sharing this with her seemed to bring her some measure of comfort-and also seemed to give her something to look forward to, even in the face of her imminent death. Three days after this conversation, she passed on.

All this to say, every case is different. Sometimes, it's best to let the family and friends-and the person who is dying-remain in denial. Sometimes-when the person's medical care is at risk-it's best to speak up, regardless how much everyone else is in denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

So there's weeks left to live.

Then that's weeks of life.

Too precious to be wasted.

Make it matter.

Make it beautiful.

Make it fun.

Fill it with love.

Fill it with happiness.

If necessary, tears.

Make it count!

Love all the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 06:39 PM

Thirteen years ago my brother in law died. He had been diagnosed with colon cancer about two years before his death at age 63.

My sister has never, as her daughter says, gotten over his death, and when she talks about him it's almost as though she resents his departure, or at the least she blames *somebody* out there who made him go. Both she and her husband have been very religious and I doubt that sis would entertain the idea that she is angry with God.

The amazing mind-blowing thing to me is that, according to what she told me this past winter, she and her husband never acknowledged his prognosis or discussed the possibility that he might die, although she admits that on the day he died she 'released' him to go and that within a half hour he was gone.

She was one of those wives who took no responsibility for their finances; she would even not stop to explore something alongside the road that intrigued her because "it wouldn't be any fun by myself".

So now she is by herself and hates it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 08:48 PM

Ya know, there's a fine line here...

Some folks think that you just suck it up and pretend that stuff ain't happenin' to a loved one when stuff is happening... I've been thru this twice... Once with my late wife, Judy and then again with my dad...

Yeah, there were lots of folks who just couldn't allow themselves the unthinkable that someone they loved was dying... Sniff... I hate this...

Ahhhhh, if I am dying I want folks to know it... I don't want it to be hardee-har-har sugar coated... No, I want people to accept it so that tghe time we spend together is meaningfull and not superficial...

In Judy's case there was no denial and hospice was involved and folks understood what was happening and the ***quality of life*** was very good becuase there wasn't the hardee-har-har sugar coated time spent... It was meaningfull... Maybe because Judy was so strong willed and wouldn't allow people the easy outs...

My dad??? That was so very different... I took him to a radiation treatment and then talked with his doctors... They told me he was dying and I asked if they had told me mom and they said they kinda tried... I blame the doctors here because my mom was already making plans to move my dying dad to Florida to their winter condo... Problem was that he had less than a month to live???

So after I took my dad to that radiation treatment I told my mom that he was dying... She seemed utterly amazed???

So, I guess my advice is to be as supportive as oner can be but, for gosh sakes, don't sugarcoat death... I mean, those last few weeks can be so meaningfull if everyone is on the same page!!!

Judy squeezed every minute outta every day because she knew what was happening and as a result of that her ***quality of life*** in her last month was incredibly high...

So my advice: hold the hand, talk, listen but don't deny what is going on... It's your last chance to get it right with your particular loved one...

Sniff..............

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,A Mudcatter
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

Yup. Everyone is right. I side with Bobert, but, regarding the other posts and the fact that friends and relatives ALL seem to wanna go the denial route, I guess it's best to just let it go... except between Bro and I, of course. He knows, and he knows I know.

Thanks to every single one of you. Your posts have helped me a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:42 PM

'If ye love them , love them. If ye don't, don't fake it"

I dunno, if there ever was a time to fake an orgasm........

But seriously theres a time for levelling wih people and their last months of life isn't it. My mother asked me a lot of direct questions before she died. I wish to God, I'd been more economical with the truth. However I was young and stupid and tactless. the truth of your dying is a big enough thing to deal with - if you can be spared anything else. You have a right to be spared it.

My father in law never acknowledged to us that he was dying, and the whole two years or so were an emotional bloodbath I think in consequence - its always best to know the worst and that gives you and those around you a chance to deal with it. Cowardice really does buy you nothing.

never an easy stuation.    You're probably always going to feel you did it wrong. unless I suppose, you're one of those people who think they've never done anything wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:25 PM

Denny was the best friend anyone could have ever had. Additionally, we worked together starting and running a very successful Automotive Shop. For a dozen of those years we spent over 60 hours a week together. We were close as brothers and our friendship ran deep. I went off and started a new career but eventually wound up back in Columbus now married. Karen and I lived with he and Sue for a few months when we came home until we got things situated. He was absolutely the most responsible person I ever knew.

In'96 he developed cancer that was terminal from the gitgo but he went through some treatment as he was strong and looked forward to maybe a few months more which he got. Sue and many other friends remained ultra positive but he knew and I knew there was no real hope. One day he told me he'd already gone to the funeral home and prepaid a plan that matched what he wanted even down to the number of death certificates! He asked if I could take care of a few things for him and I said "Of course but hell Den, you have a lot of time left. You're doing well right now." Now that was lame wasn't it? He didn't chastise me for being so but looked at me directly and said, "This is important for me and I want you to do it." I said he could have from me anything he needed.

"Well, there's a couple of things," he said. First, I'd appreciate it if you'd say a few words at the funeral. More important is that Susie is going to need some help when the time gets close and I want you to help her make the choice she'll have to make." So I'm standing there looking at my best friend through the tears and knowing I could never let him down.

So a few months later as family and friends stood around the palliative care floor of Mt. Carmel and Denny was slowly shutting down, Sue and I stepped to a corner of the hallway. She said she wasn't sure what to do and I knew it was true. Many were in denial. We hugged and I said it was time to let him go. She went in and laid down on the bed with him and I shuffled evryone else out of the room except his grown kids. She whispered to Den it was okay to let go and within 5 minutes he was gone. That may have been the best thing I ever did in my life.

Its been 10 years and I miss him every day but I will always appreciate the chance he gave me to be a real friend.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:44 PM

And you were, Spaw, you surely were.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 09:08 PM

Yup...

Sniff...

With my late wife, Judy, it was a similar story in that she planned her entire funeral and she had this file with all her instructions in it and she went over and over it with me... She even picked out the music she wanted played at the viewing and I made a cassette tape of it...

This gave her a sense of control of her life and brought her a sense of meaning...

When we sugar-coat the dying process we strip folks of those important last chapters... Everyone's life is just that... Chapters... We all have only so many chapters...

Okay, hey, it ain't like we got be all gloomy... We just need to be what we have always been to folks in the dying process and that is their friends... And friends help one another...

My advice to anyone who is in this situation is to just be a good friend... Ask then if there is anything that they would like you to do for them or help them with... If not, fine... Just stay friends...

Like Spaw was to Denny...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 08 - 10:43 PM

Here's a wee bit more of Spaw's beautiful story of Denny...

"The funeral drew a huge crowd and when I spoke, I spent twenty minutes and got lots of laughs, because we had had many good laughs together over the years. But I ended with something that my nephew had asked. It was a good question and since he was there, it was a good place to answer it. Ricky said to his Mom (Connie), "What's it like when your best friend dies? Uncle Pat must have a big hole in his heart now." At the end of that eulogy cum comedy monologue, I told the crowd what Rick had asked and said:

Great friends cannot leave a hole in your heart. They can only fill it with the memories of a lifetime. Maybe that's all our hearts really are.......A collection of wonderful memories and love for those we bless and who bless us with that most special status......True Friend.

I know my heart will always have you in it, Pat.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:31 AM

Aw, bejaysus, you guys are hitting the sprinklers out here---grrrumph humph ahem--I'll go shut 'em down....nah. maybe I won't.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: maeve
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 03:37 PM

Show your love. Speak your love. Listen. Remember. Talk about the memories. Laugh when you can. Weep when you can. Remember that folks also care about you. Show your love. Remember.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 04:07 PM

So many beautiful posts. Yes, Maeve... remember. I shall remember this thread as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 04:59 PM

I think there are some very good points above..
here is what I think..

my dad died only just over a week ago (many of you no doubt read the earlier threads - on life and death decision and no father on fathers day)
While the whole family including my dad denied openly that he was dying, we all kind of knew it and it wasnt until the last two days that we pretty much accepted it. The doctors had been subtly (and not so subtly) suggesting palliative care almost from the time he entered the hospital and we resisted it. I still believe we made the right decisions at the right time and only agreed to palliative care only the last two days.

One of the last things my dad told me was that it just depressed him to look around the four walls of the hospital and think that he may not make it out of there. So if we had given up weeks earlier that (I think) would have it would have been 3 weeks of that for him.

and yet, I think I knew that the end was beginning only a few weeks before when he suddenly lost his balance (due to his low bp) even while sitting down in a chair (his bp was somewhere in the 50s or even 40s at times) At the same time he had lost a lot of interest in life, mainly because he used to be so active and had to catch his breath when walking only a few steps to the next room.

I think there is something to be said for the idea that the loved ones dont want to let go, and when they finally do the dying person can finally go too. There are heartbreaking moments of goodbyes being said.. my dad with great effort on his last night looked directly at me and gave me his hand and then shook my brothers hand - as painful as the memory is it was a real gift to be able to do that.

I also took some opportunity for him to make short video messages to my daughters - they are only 3 1/2 and 18 months ..
so hopefully one day they will be able to appreciate them.

hopefully this helps, but then again, I had a tough time accepting it until it really was obviously happening.
Petr

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 05:01 PM

Hey Bobert,

I like the way you laugh at yourself for crying.

Honest, self aware, in touch ...

... and funny.

You're a class act bro!

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 05:12 PM

Be there, in your way. Others will be there in theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 12:01 AM

petr, that is beautiful that you will have the video messages for your daughters. I never knew my paternal grandparents and I would love to have had something like that of them. As it is I have my dad's stories and photos and those have brought them to life for me, in a way.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 04:35 AM

My first thought on reading A Mudcatter's initial post was similar to PoppaGator's: perhaps AM's brother will live through his current crisis. Perhaps it is easier for AM to set his/her mind on the thought that the loved one's suffering will be over soon (and the self-reassurance that AM has expressed and demonstrated his/her love before it's too late) than to deal with the thought of watching his/her brother make a slow, painful recovery... and dealing with the ways in which his life might change afterward and the ways in which his relationship with AM might change and fluctuate.

PoppaGator's description of "incredibly debilitating" treatment gives a glimpse into this: feeding tube, feeling "out of it" for months, rapid weight loss with the attendant change in appearance... Also, it could be that AM's brother will not recover completely and will need continual care, which would be an emotional and financial strain on his loved ones. And of course any remission carries with it the nagging back-of-the-mind thought of recurrence. No loving sibling wants to go on that roller-coaster ride, but some certainly think it preferable to losing his/her brother... and some may think it worse than what they might consider a mercifully rapid decline and demise.

Whether AM's belief about his/her brother's imminent death is correct or not, AM has told him that he/she loves him and has held his hand, which is something we should all do for our loved ones regardless of the state of their health! AM asks why his/her relatives and friends can't do the same... but perhaps they do (or have done) the same in private moments. And perhaps what AM sees as their denial is actually their expression of their love in the smiling and the joking and the hoping.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 10:27 AM

Loss is loss whatever the context and dealing with it is never simple...however, what I would ask is "What do you think the others.....his wife, your mother, your best friend......think you are thinking......at the end of the day you may all be thinking the same thing...just handling it differently. You are I guess all in the same boat but with differing frameworks of understanding. Sometimes it is easier to bring it out into the open by simply asking the other person how they really feel...and what they really think is happening....and hope that you get an honest answer. Each of them might actually be 'passing it off' in some effort to keep you and the rest feeling OK about things..as they probably don't know how you feel really.
I also believe that we need to live with some degree of optimism...even in the face of total adversity...we all need to keep some hope until there is none.
Hope this post makes the sense I have tried to portray.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 12:51 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wetN3qC87mg&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 04:39 PM

thanks kat,
re the video messages, I think everyone should take a moment and leave one for their loved ones, now it is so easy with webcams etc..
but the reason I did it, was after listening to a radio podcast about a woman whose mother died of cancer, and since she was only a baby at the time she knew very little of her mother. She would have loved it if the mother had written a letter to her to read when she is grown up.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:06 PM

When I posted the other day (19 Jun 08 - 04:49 PM), I had apparently missed the part where "A Mudcatter" had told us that the brother himself believed he was dying. While I'm not taking back anything I wrote, this does cast a somerwhat different light on this particular case: I am now much more throughtly persuaded that this patient probably is in terminal decline, and the family members who won't accept this fact are probably "in denial."

Another thought: as noted above, I was consistently optimistic about the eventual outcome throughout my entire cancer episode, and people often told me, at the time and also ever since, that my "positive attitude" could be the reason that I eventualy recovered.

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe the fact that I was being cured was something I could somehow accurately perceive, and was the reason I felt as confident as I did. Did the attitude cause the outcome, or did the objective situation cause the attitude? ("Which came first, the chicken or the egg?")

Who's to know whether a patient's outlook "causes" his/her eventual outcome, or if it's the other way 'round. I mean, perhaps a person truly knows, in some instinctual way, whether or not their condition is fatal, and their pessimism or optimism is NOT a self-fulfilling prophecy, but rather a simple recognition of fact.

I'm not suggesting that either way of looking at this is always true in every case. But I think it's worth considering ~ food for thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: GUEST,A Mudcatter
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:07 PM

Thanks again for each and every post.

He went for chemo #6 or so yesterday. They kept him in because his O2 was low and his blood was low again. The two transfusion early last week helped, but... And, since last Thursday, when I started this thread, his cognition and reasoning have been getting even worse than I witnessed that day. This morning, when I was with him, he was forgetting what he was doing between being fed pills and drinking water to get them down. He can't hold a cup by himself. His wife spoon feds him.

Next is blood tests, urine tests (SiL saw blood in urine this AM... he has had a catheter for about four months and needs a few medications to be able to deficate.), MRI of brain, MRI of growth of tumour on base of spine (hence catheter and bowel blockage) to see if it has shrunk any more since the radiation treatments (it was too far advanced for the specialist surgeon in Halifax to operate by the time they FINALLY believed him when he said there was something more than a pinched sciatic nerve about 6 months earlier), and chest Xrays to determine if the lung cancer is responding to the agrressive chemo.

I didn't give you all the "details" before. Thought it might influence the discussion.

The doc was there for a while. That's when the "strategy" about the tests was developed. She asked him questions and then looked at SiL for the answers. He "pointed and clicked" a number of times with an empty hand at the doc. None of them understood. They discussed it and decided he must want to have his morphine pump "upped" for self-administration. He looked at me with disgust while they were busy talking about what he might be communicating. I stifled a laugh and he gave me that look of, "Shuuuut the fuuuuck up!" Unfortunately, his remote control just can't turn off the program and he has seen it before... he's tired of it.

A nurse arrived with another wheel barrow of pills and I took my leave... after I held his hand and told him I loved him... very much.

Sorry for prattling on, but, I figured it was time that the details were explained as this thread draws to a close.

Thanks again to all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: open mike
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:50 PM

i recently spent some time with a hospice nurse. She said that being involved in the process of dying can increase your awareness of your wishes at that time for your life and death. You can prepare a document (often called D.N.R.--Do Not Resuscitate) which will assure that you will not have "heroic measures" such as C.P.R. uses to prolong your life. Other options are to have a legal agreement with doctor, lawyer and family members not to tube feed or intubate (oxygen) you if you should choose this.

I often tell people to be aware of special, magical energies around the time of death as the "veil is thin" between the physical and the spiritual worlds.

Subject: RE: BS: Dealing with death denial.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

AM,

A really hard lesson of maturity is letting go of the notion (fear) that other people's opinions of "what is reality" change what we ourselves know IS reality, and/or that their opinions of what is reality can or should or will change what we do, think, or feel. Seems the only way to learn that lesson is to live through really messy, painful stuff.... So iIf Mudcat can be a place to validate your own sense of reality as you process this entire situation, goodonya.

~S~