BBC and Local Radio Archives

Subject: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 04:28 AM

I am currently involved in a number of concertina projects, which due to the wonderful archive recordings sent to me feature the comparisons between old players and new.The old styles of playing ,the music of that period and techniques they adopted.Some of these recordings exist on old 78 recordings,some from tape recordings taken from the audience. A few very valuable recordings have come via Vic Smith who used to host the Folk program on Radio Brighton.Vic obviously realised the importance of his old recordings and has kept them and looked after them. The Scan Tester Recordings on Anglo International came from that source and other recordings of his on English International.It must be said that many of the recordings sent to me were on the point of extinction old tape recordings are now and have been disintegrating over the years many lost forever. What of the BBC and other local Radio Stations that have many priceless recordings sitting in their archives rotting away. I know of and have read of recordings and interviews of the old concertina bands from the 1930s. John Nixon X player of The Bolton Concertina Band can name the date and time that his band recorded for the BBC.Many of you here if you have reached a certain standard manage to get on the radio and some do special recordings ,some used some not. Where are these recordings and all the old archive recordings? Do they get dumped after their shelf life runs out? Is there anyone saving these old recordings and putting them on computer for future generations. Who makes the decision what to keep and what to throw away?
The British Museum Sound recordings Dept are a valuable source of old recordings and these are being looked after,but it is not the easiest of jobs to investigate subjects there. The old Pathe News Films are now available and prove to be a valuable source of information for archive investigation and can be accessed by computer.
There is little time left, some sort of action is required before these valuable archives disappear forever.
Al

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: GUEST,mouldy old dough
Date: 21 Jun 08 - 10:42 PM

everything perishes eventually......................->

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 02:16 AM

Woops.
Write before posting!
It's unlikely that Local Radio stations in the UK, (Not to mention National BBC) will have kept such material.
I remember in my early days at the Beeb, the "Tape Reclamation" Dept employed callow youths to weld old bits of tape together and then re-use them as back-up media.
The theory was that tape was worth more than it's contents.
There are many years of Peel sessions missing because of this. As for folk music, when Birmingham lost the franchise for Folk on Two (previously, Folk on Friday, Folkweave etc) nearly all of the tapes ended up in a skip... And when Pebble Mill closed down, anything that was left, also went the same way.
Local Radio never had the resources to archive very much.
Folk music was very much a low priority.

A few of us kept what we could.
Sadly, the Concertina wasn't particularly fashionable at the time, so, there wasn't much to keep!

I have two half hour Docs, The Concertina Man (A vignette by Tim Laycock from the 80's) and a potted history of English playing in the (mainly) classical world, and thats about it.

Things got better in the 80's, and now, everything is properly archived digitally, but I'm afraid for the older stuff, you'll have to rely on enthusiasts like Vic, who actually owned a tape recorder, and had the presence of mind to tape the stuff.

But, I wish you luck in your quest.

Ralphie

PS. Am in negotiations with Mr Hebbert to do a session for you...
Will get back when I know when!

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:08 AM

Some stuff exists simply because the right person saw the tape recycling cart going past with various folk programmes on them and rescued them - I think some of the Nic Jones recordings exist because of this.
I would hazard a guess to say that local radio preserves very little officially - I used to record Ali O'Brien's "Sounds of Folk" programme from the days when it was on BBC GMR before Bernard Cromarty got involved as producer who had the mind to record the studio output onto minidisc. As far as I know a full archive of recordings is available for this programme.
Geoff Speed and Stan Ambrose have a vast amount of tapes for the BBC Radio Merseyside "Folkscene" programme that they have kept over the years - again not an official archive as such.

Presenters and producers are better people to ask than the BBC archive department!

Good hunting.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:45 AM

Hi Mark.
Couldn't agree more.
Alan will have much more luck talking to engineers/producers of shows, than the "archive" departments. (If he can track them down)
And yes....many session/concerts were rescued from the great recycling bin in the sky, purely by enthusiasts.

These tapes are probably in someones attic, gathering dust.

To be fair to the Beeb, they now do archive most sessions, thanks mainly to the unsung hero Phil Lawton, who along with Johnny Beerling set up the project in the late 70's.

Then in the 90's the much maligned John Birt, (Director General) was instrumental in digitising what was left, and now all existing sessions are living on several huge computers, accessible by programme makers. (Digi Radio 6 and 7 wouldn't exist without this stuff)

After the success of this experiment, the Beeb have now embarked on digi archiving the entire Radio archive, from the earliest days!!!

Talk about painting the Forth Bridge!!!

It will take years no doubt.

Talking of Phil Lawton, I remember visiting him in his dungeon under Yalding House, and whilst chatting to him, I realised that I was leaning on shelves filled with tapes by The Beatles, Hendrix, etc, etc....!!!

Rows and rows of the stuff.

Bloody Hell, I thought....imagine a fire in here!!

For people who are interested there has been recently released a book by Ken Garner called "The Peel Sessions" which tells the story of how live music came to be recorded by the Beeb.

Obviously it concentrates on Mr Peel, and lists every session ever recorded.....but, as an overview to the Beebs attitude to Live music, it's a "Must Read"

(And I get a mention too.....how cool is that!)

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 08:40 AM

Thanks for the information Ralphie and sad news it is too.I wonder how anyone apart from BBC staff would know when recordings are being dumped.
Did people actually have to go digging in the skip to retrieve anything they fancied? Many of the reel to reel recordings are now disintegrating and we were lucky with English International to salvage a few that would have been lost forever had they had not surfaced.As it is a great deal of sound engineering work has gone into improving sound quality.
It is not only the concertina world that is interested in these old archives of course, but it is annoying when someone is frantically looking for old recordings of artists which are out there and cannot be found.Tony Rose is a classic example of this with the family desperate for recordings to issue a CD commemorating his work.
My work for the English is now finished and I move on to Duet,so your info re recordings of yourself and Mike is good news Ralphie. I look forward to them. Also we are looking for Concertina Band recordings if anyone knows of any out there. We already have a very interesting collection coming together.
English will be released about mid July .
Al

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 09:03 AM

Enourmous thread creep scenario.
Somewhere. (I know not where) I have some cassettes of Liverpool Tina bands...
It's been 20 years since I last saw them, but, If I come across them, I'll pass them on...!!

As far as skip digging is concerned, Guilty as charged!!
Not much Folk stuff, but, If I found it, I saved it.
Mr Jones is a case in point!

I can't even count the number of phone calls from producers saying...."You don't happen to have a copy of.....??"

As far as the Duet project is concerned....work is progressing.
Looking forward to the English leg of the project.

Will keep you informed of progress.

Ralphie

PS. Is it allowed to have an English/Duet "Duet" track??

Me and John Dipper in Belgium?

Please say yes, it took me hours to edit it!!

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: johnadams
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 01:14 PM

In May I spent a week at Glasgow University attending a workshop on the curation and preservation of audio visual collections. One of the speakers was Richard Wright, the technology Manager of BBC Archives.

From his presentations it was clear that the modern BBC has a very different approach to archiving than has been the case in past years and that there has been and continues to be a considerable investment in preserving and curating both audio and visual material.

The problem of stuff that has already been dumped is obviously unsolvable - it's gone and unless off air copies reside on private shelves it's gone forever. (As an aside, in the Paul Graney archive I have a large collection of Bert Lloyd radio documentaries, some of which the BBC no longer have. Hopefully the BBC will let me stream them this year which is his birth centenary - I'm asking!).

Anyway, the problem of archiving is not just the technical side which is complex enough but also that of metadata or what's actually on the tapes. Because of the expense involved in creating metadata, it's this aspect which often defines the priorities when deciding what to digitise and what to defer. The priorities will probably be set by the assessment of how useful the content might be to present programme makers rather than it's historical value culturally within a specific genre.

On the technical side, care is being taken to identify high risk material (stuff suffering from 'sticky shed' or 'vinegar' syndromes, etc.) and make sure that vulnerable material is migrated to new media as a priority.

It's interesting to note that even stuff that HAS been digitised is considered vulnerable and the recommended period before present digitised media has to be dealt with again is only five years. Analogue media lasted a lot longer than some technical people think that digital media will last. The largest problem seems to be not just the media itself but also the systems to play it on. They rapidly go out of commission. (MiniDisk?)

Anyway Alan, I think that little material is lost from ignorance or neglect now, but the immensity of the task of migrating media and creating metadata will mean that some stuff will never see the light of day.

Keep archiving and give copies away - the more copies there are, the more we'll carry forward.

J

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 01:24 PM

No problems Ralphie ,we have Tom Kruskal (Jodie's Brother) playing Anglo With Jan Elliott playing English on English International she does get a solo bit in there though. I would love those Liverpool Band recordings if you can find them ,you have about two years.With the late running of English I cannot see Duet being out there for about a year,possibly less. Jean Megly now out of retirement wants a bit of time to get his act together,so there is no rush.Plod on to the end of the tunnel.
If you get English Int you will hear what prompted this posting,an incredible bit of playing by someone who few people have heard of before Tommy Elliott.(Now on Pathe News archives with his group The Musical Elliotts).A recording from the personal collection from his Daughter Viona
(possibly taken out of a skip)
Al

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 03:19 PM

Blimey Alan....
Two Goddam years???
And there I was girding my loins, flexing my biceps, etc, etc....
Who knows what young guns will have overtaken my meagre talents by then!!!

Grumble, Mutter, Humbug.....
Walks off into the night, desparately trying to learn a tune in C Sharp, just to stay ahead of the game!!

Will try and find those old cassettes for you...

And, Mr Adams. Yes, copy and disseminate everything.

Nobody knows how long any Digi media will last, but....wax cylinders and 78's still play today....maybe that is the future!!!

Onwards. Ralphie

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM

You misread it Ralphie the Concertina Band Compilation will be about two years. You have about six months of grumbling and flexing left.
Did you ever see or hear any of the Duet playing of Maurice Harvey,Son of Len Harvey ICA Secretary? Maybe before your time as he was a very young player (about twenty ) before he suffered from polio and played no more, sadly. I have been lucky enough to obtain an old cassette copy of his Father's recordings of him as a young boy.Just unbelievable.
These old recordings are out there, but they do take some finding.
Al

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 03:04 AM

I don't think it's quite the thing you're looking for but I have a recording that I made of the New Mexborough Concertina Quartet at Ipswich folk club in 1984. The band members were Nigel Pickles, Dick Miles, Steve Dickinson and Rob (Mackie?)
Please let me know if you want a copy.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 06:24 AM

As John Adams and Ralphie so rightly say, the biggest problem is actually listening to this stuff, and deciding what is worth keeping, and then transferring it. And, of course, any editorial decision made now may be very different in 10 years time.

When I was doing local radio in Coventry, between 1983 and 1993, I recorded all the main stage concerts at Warwick Folk Festival - 10 years of it!! This was on PCM digital recorded onto Betamax as a carrier. I have boxes of the bloomin' things. Before I moved house, I started listening to them and have notes on what's on most of them, plus some sort of usability index. They're all back in the box at the moment.

One day, when I have nothing else to do, I really must transfer them onto CD or hard disc or something, before the tapes deteriorate, or the 2 Betamax players that I have kept finally give up the ghost.

There is some fabulous stuff on these tapes - although couldn't find anything by Tony Rose, although he did play at the festival.

Some has already found its way to commercial release. One was a complete album of Gordon Giltrap - On a Summer's Night, which became one of his biggest sellers. Also, there is some Whippersnapper stuff which found its way onto their "These Foolish Strings" live compilation. The rest of their stuff is fabulous.

There is also the first ever gig by After Hours - Alan Burke keeps asking me to run him off a copy. One day mate, one day.

Even more interesting (I think), Dick Dixon has video tapes of the festival for several years. These were proper TV docs made by the then Coventry Cable TV station. There are interviews etc, plus quite a lot of concert footage. Dick has been talking about putting something together for next year when the festival has its 30th birthday. Fascinating stuff.

It all goes to prove we all like a bit of nostalgia, particularly videos when we all looked so young!!

G

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Bernard
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

Yes, Mark, I can confirm that I have archives of all Ali O'Brien's 'sounds of Folk' programmes from our days at BBC GMR, and its subsequent reincarnations on Radio Britfolk and Oldham Community Radio, too.

The only programme I do not have was OCR007 (April 30th 2007, guests Elbow Jane) when the auto-logging system at Oldham Community Radio threw a wobbler... I didn't have a MiniDisk in the recorder on that occasion, but always do 'belt and braces' these days! It's unlikely that anyone recorded that programme as the station was in its infancy, but if you did...

The early GMR programme archives were provided by Mark. I wasn't involved in producing the programme until October 2003, and started logging on Minidisk in January 2004.

I can provide a list of all the studio/telephone guests we have interviewed if anyone is interested. However, Lymm Festival is about to start, so I may not be able to respond very quickly...!

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:10 AM

As stated previously I have completed my requirements for Anglo and English, but any old recordings of Duet players and Concertina Bands I would be very interested to hear them. So yes please Mark for Mexborough.
I have some recordings of Mexborough already but they will not be suitable for the compilation.
It has been very interesting putting these compilations together. The response from all over the World has enabled me, on English International to create with a mixture of Archive recordings and new, the history of the playing of the instrument from about 1850 to the current day. It is very interesting to compare the old playing against the modern players and will hopefully help to develop the future playing of the instrument.
These archives are vital for comparison.Niel Wayne has successfully released all his old recordings and the interest is there. Not just for the concertina, but for other instruments we have to preserve these old recordings.Like most of you up in my loft I have cassette tapes that are not cataloged with the players names etc and I also hold up my wrist to be slapped for not getting around to it.
We have taken for granted most of the players that have been around for years and then like the current Paul Davis thread we realise too late what great playing he could achieve anmd how much it is missed.
Al

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: danensis
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:50 AM

I seem to recall that someone from local radio (or it might have been hospital radio) used to record Ian Campbell's Jug O'Punch folk club at Digbeth Civic Hall. I'd like to find the tapes of that, as my (not yet at that stage) wife sang there in the early 1970s.

John

Subject: RE: BBC and Local Radio Archives
From: Alan Day
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 10:00 AM

The International Concertina Association have an archive section which makes recordings, old tutors books etc available to it's members. It is all cataloged and fairly easy to obtain.It would be great if a Nationwide Recordings Archive list ,which included what the BBC is now holding, was made available for all to use. Some private collectors could even charge for reproducing their collection.If it is made available, someone will want it for Historical Investigations or just interested in certain artists.
Al