Obit- Woven Wheat Whispers

Subject: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM

Sadly, the UK based specialist legal download service for folk and folk-related music, Woven Wheat Whispers, has closed for good this week. The final straw was problems the site experienced with hackers, but it seems that the writing has been on the wall for a while - mainly because it seems that most people who want to get their music off the internet either want it for free or won't stray beyond the confines of i-tunes... coupled with generalised apathy towards the idea of a download service for folk music.

What a shame. In my opinion, this was a truly innovative service and had the potential to be just the sort of thing the folk world of the 21st century needed. The catalogue was getting better all the time, too, with more and more artists and labels coming on board.

I certainly discovered some great music via WWW and was truly puzzled by the lack of interest in and support for the site - sales for May this year, for example, were considerably lower than sales for the same month a year ago, despite there being an increase in the number of users and a stronger catalogue.

Too late now, I suppose. It may be that the folk music world wasn't yet ready or willing to download music from a dedicated site. It doesn't alter the fact that the concept was superb - if maybe a little ahead of its time. If anyone takes up the baton, as I'm sure they will, here's hoping they get a more positive response than WWW did.

Any thoughts?

Here's Mark Coyle of WWW's comment:
Woven Wheat Whispers Blogspot

Finally, I just want to say cheers, Mark! Thanks for all your hard work and enthusiasm...

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: treewind
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

Sad news.
You're right, Nigel - Mark was one of the good guys, in a world of online music full of copyright violators that must have cast a shadow on his own corner of the market.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:03 AM

Yes that's a huge pity - WWW was a really good idea. However, like RadioBritfolk it was conceived pre-MySpace - which has since made a massive difference to how people think about music and computers. People do still seem to be very happy to buy a signed CD at gigs, but my on-line sales of whole CDs has fallen dramatically this year. I've not been with iTunes long enough to make a proper decision on how that will work out (and I only have one CD there so far), but I'm hoping that people now prefer to buy just selected tracks - and there will be enough of them, world-wide, to compensate for all the poor sad little songs no-one will ever buy again! :-(

I guess I'll have to put the 2 Slide CDs I had with WWW on iTunes as well now, because I ran out of actual stock years ago.

Best of luck with your next project Mark - and thanks again for all your hard work.

Tom

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:21 AM

I think maybe he cast the net a bit too wide. WWW was okay for Derek Brimstone - he was a name and there was a general interest in what he did, and some demand.

However I was offered and went on WWW. Theres not much interest in my music, I'm fairly unknown and thus virtually no demand. Can't give the stuff away.

I think probably the only way forward in the UK is the road Park Records is taking. they have have their old stars rota, whch presumably gives them a little financial leeway to invest in newer names like Ruth Nottman. Also it gives them bargaining chips with the powers that have to be bargained with.

I think maybe the 'Come All Ye' approach though very altruistic worked against WWW ultimately. made it difficult to see how they were going to carve a niche for themselves in the marketplace. A noble experiment, by decent people. I hope they don't lose too much money, and think of a way of taming 'the beast', that our music business has deveoped into. Sometimes you have to make mistakes just to get the mistakes over, and see the path before you.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: mattkeen
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:43 AM

Yes, the apathy was sad, and I guess it was before its time as far as intended punters were concerned.
WWW - I agree it was the fact that there were many "unknown"s that prevented greater uptake.

Shame

Five tress have a much smaller but quite varied shop
Chris Wood does his Ruff Records releases through them now as well

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: treewind
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:11 AM

As alternative online CD channels go, I've heard glowing reports (from the recording artist's point of view) about CD Baby.

A.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:18 AM

Yes, that's my route to iTunes, but they're based in the states, so I direct UK customers to Ben Broughton's site Abicat

Some top 'folk' artists there - and not too many, which is good as you say, Al.

Tom

(And Ben runs a tight ship too)

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Morris-ey
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:20 AM

It failed because it did not provide a service people wanted - or wanted sufficiently to make economic sense.

I don't know what market research was done to test the market, but I suspect the majority of folk music buyers don't buy their music as downloads.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Crane Driver
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

It really was an interesting concept, based on some ideas that deserve discussion.

Firstly, the idea that The Album still has meaning in folk music - that the artist puts together a structured programme of music (not necessarily themed, but structured), rather than just lumping together a random selection of tracks. Is that still relevant? Does anyone listen to whole albums any more, or just cherry-pick or randomise?

Secondly, do people just want to buy the artists and songs they already know and like, or are people still open to something new? Yes WWW's catalogue was full of little-known people, but that was surely the point - you could hear something new for about half the price of a regular CD, from people you might never get to hear live.

Third, is anyone interested in recorded music any more? When just about everyone has a CD, is the whole concept devalued? We produced our CDs primarily to bring attention to some self-penned material which we thought might be of interest to other singers, rather than to make money (though it would be nice to break even) and we went for quality - studio recordings, extensive printed booklets etc. Perhaps it would be cheaper to just give away CDRs. What do people want? Cheap/free or quality?

We did sell CDs through WWW, and we had some great reviews from people who found our music there, so the experiment was certainly justified for us, but if it's not what people want, then it's time to close the doors. It would be interesting to hear people's views - call it market research if you like.

Andrew McKay & Carole Etherton
Crane Drivin' Music

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 03:24 PM

I'm really sorry to hear this news.

I came to know both Mark and Ian, via the internet..and you couldn't wish to talk with two more determined and lovely people. They had such a passion for the music, and for trying so hard to spread the word about it, to help artists, and to gather a wealth of information together, in one place.

It's a great shame that the folk world didn't support them better and realise the treasure they had in these two men.

After Ian left, Mark carried on alone, which must have been intensely difficult for him. He did all this on top of his day job too, purely because of his love for the music and his wish to help others.

Because of Ian and Mark, I discovered the wonderful music of Dave Gibb, Tom Bliss, Alan Moorhouse and many others. It was entirely due to Ian that I found Mike Harding's 'Bomber's Moon' too, a song which I now love.

I have such respect for both of them...and I send them both my love and good wishes for the future.

I sincerely hope a Folk Phoenix will, one day, rise from the ashes of Woven Wheat Whispers.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:33 PM

Could it simply be due to the fact that the majority of folkies are now of an older generation who just don't "get" downloads and who prefer to buy a physical product instead?

So far as I'm concerned, I'm not attracted by the idea of browsing around a site looking for something to take my interest, downloading and paying for it, and then copying it to CD or mp3 player so I can listen to it. It's partly I can't be bothered, and partly because if I'm handing over money I prefer to see something for it. If I've got a physical product, then I know I can copy it again if the computer or mp3 player fails or gets lost.

Luddite, I know, and I really must catch up with the times. I'm still only just getting over the change from LPs to CDs...

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Def Shepard
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:48 PM

It has nothing to do with age, simply that of convienience. I get the concept of down-loading (got it along time ago), I just can't be bothered doing it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 04:54 PM

Ian Southworth, formerly of WWW, was involved a little too closely with A Person In Harrogate not known for the payment of royalties to artists whose work has the misfortune to be under his control.

Mark Coyle, who continued the download operation after Mr Southworth's mysterious disappearance, did not (as far as I know) continue to pursue this alliance with 'you know who'. However, such a connection, even if entirely severed of late, would not have been conducive to establishing credentials with those wishing to purchase music in the certain knowledge that it was ethical.

Mr Southworth used to be known in this parish as Lancashire Lad, a name which he also used to flog CD-Rs, run off in said Yorkshire spa town, on eBay.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:17 PM

How strange, Diane.

Not 10 minutes since, I had just sent an email to a friend, explaining how you tried to verbally bad mouth Ian, on the BBC, and that, in my opinion, perhaps 'the word' had been spread around to this effect, not helping Woven Wheat Whispers in the slightest...

And now, here you are, doing *exactly* what I had just told them you did.

Your vitriol never ceases to amaze and disgust me.

Apologies to Joe, having just told him that was only going to post once under this name, and not cause 'fights', but this is a matter of importance to me.

I came to know both Mark and Ian, via emails and phone calls. Ian is a very kind man, more than you will ever be aware of. He answered your spiteful words over on the BBC, with great integrity and eloquence, which annoyed you profusely. He no longer is on messageboards, as far as I know, so is unable to reply to the poison above.

And for your information, I know exactly why Ian was no longer able to be a part of Woven Wheat Whispers. There is nothing 'mysterious' about it whatsoever, other than you are not privvy to the reason and therefore seem to want to use it to in some way 'smear' Ian's name.

He does not need this kind of thing being said and neither does Mark, and I very much hope that Joe removes your message, and my reply to it, but I am damned if I'll let you get with away with such an unpleasant post about two damned fine people!

The English folk world has lost something of great value!

And if you have, in any way, had a hand in this, then you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.

Lizzie

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:30 PM

FACT:
Ian Southworth used to be engaged in selling Celtic Music CD-Rs on Ebay.

FACT:
He used to post on this forum as a Bulmer apologist, caring nothing for the artists who were being deprived of royalties.

So, "Lizzie / y Cornish" or Lisa Route or whatever you are calling yourself at the moment,
piss off before opening your big, extremely stupid mouth about stuff you know nothing about.

That many peole are aware of his previous activities could well have compromised any trust people may have had in WWW, even after he disappeared. That too is a FACT.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

I'm not here to fight.

I am here to defend a man that I came to know. One who cared deeply about the music, and who worked his bloody backside off to help them get their music out there, treating them all fairly and squarely.

Ian and Mark both worked extraordinarily hard Diane...far harder than you have EVER done, to spread the word about music in a truly positive and uplifting manner.

They cared about all the artists who came under their umbrella.

I suggest you take your insane ramblings somewhere else and get off their backs!

You have done your damage, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever now, after having read your posts above, that you helped spread bad publicity about them.

You tried your damndest on the BBC...and here you are once more, not even letting them 'rest in peace'

As I said on another thread, there is something rotten to the core in the English folk world.....and I think your posts have just proved where the 'rot' is coming from.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:46 PM

"....piss off before opening your big, extremely stupid mouth about stuff you know nothing about..."

And having spoken to Dave Bulmer, I know a little more than you think I do.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 05:58 PM

The bulk of WWW's output did not interest me much, nor did it appeal to very many others, judging by comments made here and elsewhere. I am simply suggesting that this apathy was unlikely to be mitigated in the light of Mr Southworth's previous history, here and on eBay.

What actually is "rotten" in the English musbiz is the activities of those who exploit musicians, and in particular, those who are myopically and selfishly unable to see anything wrong with this and lend succour to them and their apologists.

Now do go away and make the Cool As Folk crowd even more pissed off with your drivel and nonsense. Try patronising them a bit more. Their responses are ever so funny and make you look ever so stupid . . .

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:04 PM

Mrs Route:

having spoken to Dave Bulmer

Ah, so that's where all the bollocks are coming from . . .
Birds of a feather.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Well the two of you have ruined what was a perfectly good thread about a sadly departed website. Absolutely disgraceful performances, well done you two, well done!

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:08 PM

No, Diane...what is 'rotten' is that you will stop at nothing to spread bad thoughts about people who have dared to disagree with you. Plain and simple.

All you have focussed on with Ian is a very, *very* few CDs he sold.

Tell me, what about all the many others?   

Tell me about the artists he DID make money for, Diane!

Tell me about the many artists who wanted to put their music onto Woven Wheat Whispers, and who were very happy with how they were treated, by both Mark and Ian.

Tell me about all the artists they worked their socks off for, Diane!

Tell me about how they stayed up into the early hours, trying to present each and every artist in the very possible light they could!

Tell me about all the thousands of words Mark wrote about 'his' artists, about their music.....about how they constantly updated their site to offer as much as they could to both the public and to their artists!

Come on, Diane...tell me about THEM!

I'm waiting to hear!

Or is being able to utter any word about anyone in a positive light too much for you to be able to do?

Yeesh!

You are way out of line on this one, lady!




Lizzie

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

I didn't start this thread for this purpose, Diane and Lizzie.

Could you take this argument to PMs, please?

Thanks,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:14 PM

"Well the two of you have ruined what was a perfectly good thread about a sadly departed website. Absolutely disgraceful performances, well done you two, well done!"

No, I have merely stood up for two men for whom I have respect, and if that is 'ruining' a perfectly good thread, well I apologise, but it's better to have a thread ruined than someone's reputation!

These 'smear campaigns' that go in the English folk world disgust me, this is merely another one of them...and if this campaign has had any effect on the folk world losing Woven Wheat Whispers, then it is far more than 'a sadly departed website', it is a hugely shaming and sorry state of affairs!

I suggest the 'Honourable Secretary' looks up the meaning of the word 'Honourable'

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

First off, Nigel, thank you bringing this event, the closing of Woven Whispers, to the posters attention.
Secondly, I don't care who's to blame, please take your arguments somewhere else, preferably away from this thread. Thank You.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Lizzy Cornish
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:18 PM

Yes Nigel,

However, it needed to be addressed, out here, in public, first.
You know Ian and Mark well too. And I would hope you feel the same way that I do about Diane's comments above. At least now, you have no need to come back to her about them.

PM me, Diane, if you need to.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 06:51 PM

One final word from me as I pack up the clogs.

It's kind of fitting that we should end as we began with Diane and Lizzie rowing.   It really did make me smile.   

I haven't spoken with Ian since 2006 and he had nothing to do with us since long before that. I don't know about his other activities but he left folk due to terrible family circumstances. He literally *had* to leave immediately and we never heard from him again apart from one email.   So any association people might have had in their mind were totally erroneous.

We didn't have to close WWW, it was paying it's way and no money was lost. It was just a decision about the future taken calmly at a point where we had time to think.   It's nice to get some family time back and to listen to music for pleasure once again.   It was meant to be fun and would have turned into slog at some point in the near future.

As for Bulmer, my final word is - it's easy to go after Ian but I don't see anyone going after Honest Jon's label who did a deal with them!   Don't bother emailing me about it, I'm long gone.

As for the site closing, it's not an issue about downloads per se. sales were soaring last year, but as the catalogue got bigger it got more daunting to search around it.   There was a huge amount of traditional, folk-rock, Ceilidh, nautical folk that people here probably didn't realise sat alongside the other material. But if people aren't looking then there's little we can do.    I knew we never crossed over to the *trad* crowd and as a voice in this group show, there was at least scepticism from some quarters. If you can't get them on side and out there spreading the word, or reaching a broad audience via BBC then it's always going to be hard.

Folk music fans often seem to follow artists they already know. As has been observed there are lots of factors. However don't think the site was a failure, we achieved what we aimed to do. It's just that taking it on further required a step change it wasn't worth making.

Incidentally I have had loads of sites email in the last day say they think we are brave for making this step and that they aren't making ends meet. This includes well known labels and review sites in the trad / folk-rock area. It seems they are considering doing the same and that sales of recorded music are falling quickly in all mediums. It's not just us who is seeing falling customer support, it's a lot of people promoting new music.

We could have continued and would have done alright, but with Myspace starting to sell downloads, Amazon coming in and iTunes level of market dominance, there was little point. Even CDBaby now sell downloads alongside the CD.   Exiting in a positive way seemed the best thing to do at the right time.

At the end of the day, I know it's easy to critique, to observe, to sit on the sidelines and nit-pick. But I feel glad that I got off my backside and tried something new. I met a lot of great people, helped a bit and put some money into artists pockets.

Thanks, it's been fun. I wish everyone well.

cheers
Mark, formerly of WWW

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:46 PM

Thanks to Nigel for highlighting our exit.

However given the nature of debate in this thread, if we can make a tiny request on our exit... close the thread down and move on.   

'Leave it Nigel, they're not worth it!!!'

cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM

Thanks for your response Mark.

Barry

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 08:07 PM

Interesting.

I'm glad it wasn't disaster and they didn't debollock their operation by getting involved with no hopers like mself.

I always suspected there was no bloody way I could get in sync with the music industry. And it was a bit surprising to find such an open minded person getting involved.

Best of luck with the next operation. this time next year......

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Maryrrf
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM

I am sorry to see Woven Wheat Whispers go - it was a good concept and I appreciate the hard work put in by Mark. I wish him well in his future endeavors.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:38 AM

Well, well.

So Mark Coyle finds it a matter to smile at that his collapsed company had, through his former partner, pronounced links with Celtic Music?

I think most people at Mudcat were aware of Ian Southworth / Lancashire Lad's antics. He certain spewed out enough apologies for Bulmer's business practices in the innumerable CM threads archived here. Those who were aware of this would surely have steered well clear of WWW for this very reason. Who wants to risk funding the Harrogate empire? If this wariness contributed to the company's demise, it would not be surprising. Long spoons and all that. Anyone who didn't know does now, so should this shady character re-emerge in the future they will at least be forewarned.

Fascinating, is it not, that madlizziecornish /Lisa Route has cosy telephonic chats with Dave Bulmer. Megalomaniacs Anonymous, is it?   Fat chance of him relenting and returning rights to the artists now with her on his list of "business advisors".

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 12:46 AM

Diane, being in the US I knew nothing of WWW or the people involoved or what they were doing or the concept. Before you started your useless trashing of this thread & some of the folks in it I found it very interesting. Please leave the thread alone if you can't add a positive "NOTE" to it, so that I & others can continue to follow it in peace & harmony. You're killing it.

Barry

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:00 AM

Barry Finn (whoever you are), if you knew nothing of WWW and the activities of Ian Southworth before, you do now. Job done.
"Peace and harmony" and royalty rip-offs do not sit well together.
You and "Lizzy" Route could do worse than devoting the next several months to acquainting yourselves with a little more of the CM background.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:15 AM

I could do better with less of you, thank you very much
I'm out of here

Barry

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:35 AM

Well, all the fighting and name calling aside, I happen to think both Mark and Ian did a WONDERFUL job on www. They obviously put their heart and soul into the project and did their very best for all concerned, I always felt (as one of the smaller guys on www) that I got as much out of it as the better known 'names'. Well done to them, I'm sad to see it go. And as far as Ian being a Dave Bulmer apologist I seem to recall reading those threads mentioned and that wasn't the way it came over to me. I think all Ian was doing was playing 'Devils Advocate' and giving a fair and unbiased comment.
...So put that in your pipes and smoke it! (outside in the designated smoking area of course!)

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:49 AM

Ian Southworth trading CM CDs on eBay amounts to rather more than "playing Devil's Advocate".
The politest description is "unethical".
"Fair and unbiased comment" = "it's fine to rip off artists and avoid paying royalties"? Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:50 AM

I'm sad to see the end of WWW. It played a small part in the promotion and sales of Bob Webb Music and, as they say at Tesco, every little helps.

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 02:40 AM

I opened this thread because I thought people might genuinely want to know what had happened to WWW. I'm glad to see positive comments from Anahata, Tom Bliss and others.

I didn't open it in order to open a can of worms that is largely irrelevant to WWW's excellent reputation for treating the artists involved in a respectful, honourable and fair manner.

As Mark C has said he would rather this thread was closed, I wonder if a friendly elf could do just that?

Cheers,

Nigel

Subject: RE: Obit: Woven Wheat Whispers
From: Mark Coyle
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 04:33 AM

I really don't want to be posting yet again.

Just to try and ensure there is at least clarity for the artists as emotionally charged language was used in this thread.   WWW didn't collapse, we have all the money needed. It was a decision taken about how far to push what was a small home operation delivered in my spare time.

I never met, spoke with or had contact with Dave Bulmer. The continuation of that line against me is flawed. Diane has made a point which is now onlist, so hopefully as it has no connection with me, the matter can lay on file for people to read.

Diane, I was not smiling at that Bulmer/Ian situation which I have absolutely no link with and never did have.   It was only an observation at the continuation of your discussions with Lizzie.

Now everyone, I'm asking you humbly to take the take the debate to another thread and if you can, please leave it out of it. It's not related to me or WWW.   I would keep out of it but I keep getting emails about it.

It wasn't me who posted here originally for this exact reason.

I am asking everyone please to stop responding to posts on this thread. Your debates, however valid can continue in another thread that people can choose to read or not.

I don't think WWW did anyone any harm, please let us rest in peace and get on sorting out things for the artists.

Mark