The Weekly Walkabout

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM

Geeziz, you really ARE a stupid fuckin' jadrool.......To quote Dylan, "Its a wonder that you still know how to breathe." Then again, you obviously don't..................You're so dumb ya' gotta' be twins.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:40 AM

I said above, Foolestroupe, that I have heard, e.g., some source singers, who, at least mostly, do, indeed, also, take one breath per line; and I've heard poetry recited, well, the same way.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:28 AM

"I've heard others breathe during lines. However, I stand by my traditional one-breath-per-line phrasing. "

I've told this tale before, but am unlikely to find it, so I'll tell it again.

I was having a Shaihatsu Massage in The Valley Mall. There was a guy nearby who I had met around the folkie scene, new to the (irish) whistle, playing something or other.

It took about 10-15 mins for my relaxed brain to trigger why what he was playing was NOT MUSIC!!! and why I had not recognised the common session 'tunes'...

He would start, play a flat out string of notes without any phrasing or much recognition of the fact that different notes were supposed 'to last different periods of time for a tune to be', then stop for a breath WHEREVER HE RAN OUT OF BREATH, then keep going again...

He too 'had a tradition'...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

""mamalucca"

er, wot's one of them then?"

Marmamlade left out of the fridge for a year?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:16 AM

"my traditional one-breath-per-line phrasing"

Documentation please!



Oh - YOUR TRADITION (that YOU started!) ... ok... mumble, mumble...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

It IS subjective, Spaw: others on Mudcat, Myspace, festival comp's, singarounds etc. - "simplistic but superlative", "good voice", etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

"mamalucca"

er, wot's one of them then?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:08 AM

Hey Dumbass.......You've got a few people who are truly trying to pass along some good advice and knowledge and you're getting all defensive about "your traditional way" instead of listening to them. What you're doing doesn't work as anyone can readily tell simply by listening.

Your voice sucks, Own up to it. Mine does too but I just sing with friends and informally. Yours may be worse than mine and you think its fine. Wake up Shitforbrains! You're bad, awful, horrendous.......You stink!

Quit defending your gawdawful voice and try to take a few well meant words of advice. Geeziz..............Enough with the broke-dick mamalucca personality..................


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 06:28 AM

Sorry - I think that oboe player actually used two breaths on "Greensleeves": one for the verse and one for the chorus (where as I use 4).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 06:20 AM

As I said, I'm aware of different breathing techiniques and exercises (I used to get a "Musician's Channel" that looked at them), and I've heard someone do the whole tune as an into. to Greensleeves (as I do), on an oboe, ON ONE BREATH; and I've heard others breathe during lines. However, I stand by my traditional one-breath-per-line phrasing.
Also, I only have the cheapest Argos digital camera, and therefore can only record a video without sound - however, on either myspace or youtube, you may like to view another breathing-type exercise I do: i.e., going through a 2-octave chromatic-scale on the tenor-recorder/English-flute, which takes about 40 seconds, on one breath.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

Mudcat's very own version of Florence Foster Jenkins

G

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:49 PM

"you don't know the tune"

I know someone who used to have to listen to the tune on their walkman via headphones while on stage about to perform - before they could perform... but the place was very encouraging to beginners - that person has now got past that...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

Actually, without you taking this the wrong way - from your OWN page...

"whether fluating, reading, chanting, or singing, I nearly always take one breath per line, and one swallow per stanza - a phrasing that makes it easier to know where I'm up to."

If you even have to THINK about this, let alone mention it to others, then your breathing (as others have said about breath support) is not under control sufficently for you to really be trying to perform in public.

It should be so naturally ingrained that EVEN THINKING ABOUT IT should be unecessary.

Breathing 'from the diaphram', or as I do, having done Oriental Martial art and health excercises, 'from the Dan Tein' practised properly, will enable you sing (or play any wind instrument!) a whole bloody STANZA in one breath!!! :-)

I'm NOT making that up you know!

Have you ever been in or near one of those 'ball clanker competitions' when singers try to outlast each other with a steady tone on a single breath?

You can then easily pick the 'real breathers'... provided I have a minute amount of warning and can 'fill my lungs', I can last with the best of them and can even 'force breathe' the dregs to keep the tone going way past 'normal emptying of the lungs'.

But I also did Live Theatre training - actors first learn to BREATHE, then speak. Breathing excercises are part of Basic Theatre Training - it is ASSUMED that you can do this before you even start on other stage techniques. Intercostal breathing is also a 'capacity extender' that stage actors and 'real singers' (read opera and other classically trained voices) can call on. I've actually watched a famous pop singer struggle with her breathing (using your silly and useless one breath per line stuff!) while singing the Aussie National Anthem for a major public event... If you are just trying to control your breathing 'one breath per line', you can't perform - a wind instrument player uses the breathing to control legato phrasing (across more than 'one line') to get meanings as does a 'real singer'.

This 'real breathing' I talked about allows you to get 'projection' - which is WHY Opera Singers can fill a large hall without microphones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now whatever 'performance style' you want is unrelated to any to of this 'breathing stuff' - do what you want, chant, verse, whatever, but until you learn to BREATHE PROPERLY - and some will never manage without proper training from a qualified teacher, you will never gain much respect for your performances, sadly. This is why I don't have a lot of time for most 'pop singers', but there are a few who are 'Can Beltos'... :-)

Oh - and the whole 'breath support' stuff applies whether singing or playing ANY wind instrument. Just that singers are the most noticed and painfully affected by lack of breath support.

Robin

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:08 PM

WAV, playing the line on the recorder first and then singing it as a way of trying to stay on pitch I'm afraid isn't working for you. What you need to do is practice. If you don't already have the tune solidly in your "mind's ear," without having to play it on the recorder immediately before you sing it, then you don't know the tune! And if you don't know the tune, you're not even close to being ready to put your singing before the public.

Record youself, then listen to yourself critically. And if it sounds fine to you, have someone else--not a friend or relative, but someone objective--listen to it and give you an honest opinion. And listen to what they say.

Unless you want to be an object if pity and ridicule, for cryin' out loud, don't put your singing on the internet until you can at least sing on pitch and hold a steady, firm tone that doesn't wobble all over the place!

I'm not trying to put you down. This is just very good advice. If you have any ambitions as a singer, what you've already posted on MySpace can come back to haunt you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:36 PM

They are my cup of traditional "tea", IE.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:21 PM

Ok WAV, I don't understand this at all-"In terms of listening to and learning from Harry Cox, Stigweard, yes, I would be a starter, and I'll keep that CD in mind, thanks; but, in terms of others (e.g. Sam Larner, Joseph Taylor), I'm not, frankly."

Are you simply saying you have listened to Larner and Taylor, etc, but not Harry Cox yet? Or are you saying they aren't your cup of tea?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Actually Hawk, I think its more the sound of a cow with a Dachshund up its ass.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

Sounds like the bishop giving instruction to the actress, to me....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:01 PM

"First of all, you need to loosen your jaw and open your throat. Relax your jaw muscles and let your jaw hang slack. Wobble it back and forth until there is no tension in your jaw muscles."

Sounds like Spaw when he walked into the backyard and found one of his weimaraners engaging in rampant sexual union with the Fuller Brush lady...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:53 PM

In terms of listening to and learning from Harry Cox, Stigweard, yes, I would be a starter, and I'll keep that CD in mind, thanks; but, in terms of others (e.g. Sam Larner, Joseph Taylor), I'm not, frankly.
To Don: I hadn't heard much in the way of your particular critique before (shoehorning and tempo too slow, instead), but I have heard most of what you said on technique and drills before. However, rather than go through scales, I prefer to play a line, sing a line, play a line (with my tenor-recorder/English flute). If nothing else, this has improved my ear a tad as, starting this year, I have begun to write music by mimicing my Chants/songs on this instrument (having learnt to read just the top-line melody a couple of years ago).

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

Exactly so. stigweard is right.

"Quavery voice, very iffy sense of pitch, no breath support, raspy quality in the voice."

Okay, let's get serious!

WAV, what I wrote above is an accurate assessment of your singing voice. But—this is curable. I should have actually put "no breath support" first, because that's the basic cause of the problem. With lack of good breath support, a voice will wobble and wander off pitch. And the raspy sound is occuring because the vocal cords are not receiving enough breath passing over them to sustain a constant tone.

If you want to sing, you can't be timid and wimpy about it.

First of all, you need to loosen your jaw and open your throat. Relax your jaw muscles and let your jaw hang slack. Wobble it back and forth until there is no tension in your jaw muscles. Then yawn a couple of times. This will open and relax your throat.

Take a good lungful of air. Breath from your diaphragm. When you take a proper breath, the diaphragm moves downward and pushes your abdomen outward, which is why people sometimes describe good breath support as "singing from the stomach," which, of course, is an anatomical impossibility.   A good exercise for breath control is to take a good breath (but don't overfill your lungs) and blow a thin stream of air, as if you are blowing at a candle flame, making it flicker, but not blowing hard enough to blow it out. As you do this, count:   one count per second, and try to count as high as you can before you have to stop and inhale again. Try for ten at first, then up to fifteen or twenty. This will help strengthen your diaphragm and help you learn to control the flow of your breath, which is essential for singing well.

By the way, most of the source singers, or people who have been singing all their lives, tend to do this naturally. But not everyone learns to do it well, and these folks generally just don't sing.

Sing scales and parts of scales. Here is a good collection of vocal exercises:   CLICKY.   Download them, print them out (including the instructions beginning on page 4), and practice them—with good breath support. And more good information here:   CLICKY #2.

And sing out like you mean it! But at the same time, remember that shouting is not singing. When singing, you should feel the front of your face above and below your eyes vibrating or "buzzing." You can get this feeling by humming an "mmmmmmm." You should feel that vibration all the time when you're singing.

And don't worry:    this kind of practice will not make you sound like an opera singer. Believe me, it won't.

If you're going to do this, you may as well learn to do it right.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:52 PM

Seriously WAV, check out the source singers - here's a link to the Harry Cox album 'A Bonny Labouring Boy' which is an excellent place to start Amazon.

This stuff is fundamental to the tradition, and everything else follows from these singers . . .

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:48 PM

...they have plenty of source-singer recordings, etc., at the EFDSS, Spaw.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:05 AM

Why? Do they need a good laugh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:52 AM

Next trip to London, a visit to the EFDSS will be a priority.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:47 AM

Voices is great WAV, but it is more of a revival collection-Maddy Prior, Martin Carthy, John K, etc. It is not the same as listening to Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, Fred Jordan, etc. Just as I said in the Glastonbury thread. And unless someone beat me to it, 100 up!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:42 AM

WAV: I have just heard your song, and I can safely say that I have never heard anything like it on my life. And you can quote me on that.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:20 AM

To Stigweard: not long after finding folk, I listened to this tape till worn-out - Voices: English traditional songs

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:53 AM

Easy on the commas WAV, people are hyperventilating here.

P.S. I too listened to 'Lancashire Sung Simply' and although I have the greatest respect for anyone who ploughs their own furrow and puts their work up for public critique have to say it's awful. Have you ever listened to Harry Cox? Please buy the CD now and hear what unaccompanied English singing really is before you go any further. I beg thee BUY THE CD NOW!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM

I could have accepted an offer of post-grad. study, Joe, and produced a thesis, on some micro-matter, than may have been read by 10s of people; instead, I produced "Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse", which looks at most of the big issues, and, at least some of which, has, so far, been read by 1000s.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:03 AM

If you believe you have all the answers, can you combine your work to form a clear, coherent manifesto / bible / guide? Because at the moment your work is a series of vaguely related 'conclusions'.

In Mudcat discussions you constantly refer people to your website, in order to clarify your views, but again this leads to all the small conclusions, which leads to confusion. Your humanities degree will have provided you with the skills of essay writing. Why not use these skills, a series of mini-essays on various subjects, 'A critique of multicultural integration of musical influences' for example?

Perhaps the end result will aid in the clarification of your views, and will aid in the survival of humanity?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:58 AM

WAVey Davey, a self made man who worships his creator, what an unbelievable dork.

eric

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: lady penelope
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:48 AM

And so humble too....

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM

Frankly, John, I do want a lot of people to know my, free, life's work, as I think it's a good way forward for humanity.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:02 AM

egotism noun, derog 1 the habit of speaking too much about oneself. 2 the fact of having a very high opinion of oneself. egotist noun a self-centred person. egotistic or egotistical adj. egotistically adverb.
ETYMOLOGY: 18c.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:55 AM

When people say "Lancashire", Don, it sounds, to me, like "Lancashar", although a lot say just "Lancs". In a review, I have been accused of shoehorning, frankly; but, Spaw, some have, at least, said they do, indeed, like some of my singing, equally frankly. Also, I did call my CD "CHANTS from Walkabouts".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:56 AM

Just checking in to see what was new and I made the mistake of actually listening to WalksaboutwithBadVocalCords sing(?) that piece of crap. I can't believe they haven't banned you from MySpace...........

Listen Man......I'm a lousy singer, always have been.   So on the basis of "it takes one to know one," let me tell you that as a singer, you make a good buttfuck. Geeziz, it really is bad........Don't sing in the woods 'cause that voice would sterilize squirrels and all the birds would shit themselves to death. If the quality of your breath matches your singing then your breath smells like a 30 day dead, decayed, & rotting skunk, covered with monkey shit and bathed in pig piss. Its that bad Man.....really.......If I'm lyin' I'm flyin' and my ass is glued to this chair.

Has anyone ever told you you have a good voice? If so, they were just making you feel good or trying to stifle a laugh or perhaps they're just fuckin' brain dead jadrools much like your sorryass self.

Consider learning ASL perhaps.........please.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:39 PM

I always thought Lancashire was pronounced "LANK-uh-sheer," not "LANK-uh-shyre." At least I've always heard it that way by people such as Lawrence Olivier, Derek Jacoby, Glenda Jackson, Alec Guinness, Alan Bates—hell, even John Cleese!

Quavery voice, very iffy sense of pitch, no breath support, raspy quality in the voice. Apart from that, Covent Garden, here we come!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:27 PM

Masochist

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST,Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM

gene: you forgot to add a link to your Myspace site. Surely an oversight.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:05 PM

...soporific, then, LP?!...anyway, I just about off to bed.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: lady penelope
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:26 PM

Ah, got it.

Dulcet. Mmm. Ok. Er. Pass.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Put a heavy weight in your right hand pocket, that'll give you a list, to starboard Lady P

G

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: lady penelope
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:21 PM

Ah must be a problem on site. I didn't get any list.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:06 PM

To Lady P. - it's 3rd on the list of 6, so you can either layback through the dulcet tones! of the top 2, or click straight on "Lancashire Sung Simply".

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: lady penelope
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:58 PM

Mmm... it's odd. I clicked on the MySpace link and all I got was a version of O Waley waley. Might have been a problem on the site though...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: Gene Burton
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

"Oh you've got to be like a monkey
if you climb up the tree!
You've no more use for the solid earth
and the lad you used to be.
You sit in the boughs and gibber
with superiority.
They all gibber and gibber and chatter,
and never a word they say
comes really out of their guts, lad,
they make it up half-way. ...
I tell you something's been done to 'em,
to the pullets up above;
there's not a cock bird among 'em", etc., etc.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:29 PM

poor thing - she's had to go to a quiet place for a few days to recover. I can't believe you'd commit such violation on a good English dog with a good English working heritage. Or some such nonsense.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:46 PM

Ruth's dog is ecstatic about it, too, apparently, Stu!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout
From: s&r
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM

I have just listened to Lancashire Sung Simply. I thought it unlikely that the poem (which I read earlier) could be equalled by a suitable tune and delivery, but it was. Oh it was

Stu