Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:01 AM

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but a recently published Sydney Carter Songbook includes an introduction by Rabbi Lionel Blue. Wikipedia says Lionel Blue is a British Reform Rabbi, journalist and broadcaster and the first openly gay British Rabbi.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:03 AM

"While we are still hugging ourselves, now the litmus test of the Mudcat's nature. If someone finds as ill-conceived an objection to the words of a song on spurious grounds of racism rather than antisemitism, do we all rise to defend against that objection in the same way?"

Richard, why don't you try one and find out? Where's your mate WAV when you need him?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:06 AM

Y'ever notice that lots of "guests" show up on threads like this?

Ain't it time to close that loophole?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

I would, Richard. Trouble is we keep getting threads which purport (is that the word?) to be 'anti-PC' but are generaly thinly disguised racist dogma. The usual 'South-Anytown Urban District Council has banned Easter eggs on the grounds that they are offensive to Hindu hens' and 'Councilor Mrs Sproggins has insisted on renaming Bolton Road as Bangalore Boulevard' have all proven to be very exagurated, if not completely false. If any of these threads, or events on which they are supposed to be based, ever prove to be true then I will be happy to jump up and down on the ill conceived objection till the cows come home.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:27 AM

Sorry, Richard, I didn't realise I was supposed to be taking this seriously. Must stop being flippant and trying to be funny or else I could end up being accused of being antidepressant.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Gulliver
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

irishenglish, I'm surprised you confuse the People's Front of Judea (a well-known gang of splitters, sycophants and Roman lackeys) with the Judean People's Front, the real strugglers against the Romans. You'll notice that this song carefully avoids mentioning the political struggle that was going on at that time, and the JPF's proud role in it. Instead it promotes the bourgeois notions of singing and dancing.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: irishenglish
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:49 AM

Peoples Popular Front of Judea then?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:21 AM

Is "The Circle Game" anti-clockwise ?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:23 AM

I always understood the "holy people" to be what we call the "unco guid" in Scots, namely that section of the religious establishment that is more interested in enforcing strict rules on other people than worshiping God. Carter is quoted as writing "Faith is more basic than language or theology. Scriptures and creeds may come to seem incredible, but faith will still go dancing on. This, I believe, is the kind of faith that Christ commended".

Any way, my favourite of his songs is "The Devil Wore a Crucifix"!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:58 AM

Unco' guid? Love it!

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:19 PM

As a cheesey new-age-y knock-off of "Simple Gifts" there are lots of good reasons for not singing it that have nothing to do with its theological implications.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: glueman
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:16 PM

"but I think the lyrics of "Lord of the Dance" are trite - that's why they make me cringe."

Amen to that Joe. It's a masterpiece of the extended metaphor - pick an allusion that's essentially meaningless but in which people can invest some 'profound' stuff of their own, wind 'em up and watch 'em go. Even if the song wasn't terrible (which it is) it's been condemned by the company it keeps.
Perhaps we'll have a thread on Dark Satanic Mills and discuss whether it's racist, anti-Wiccan and patronising to overweight female players of overstrung pianos.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:21 PM

Or matronising?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

Maybe in all damning GUEST Gerry we are being anti-semantic?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: oggie
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:28 PM

"but I think the lyrics of "Lord of the Dance" are trite - that's why they make me cringe."

Like "Blowing in the Wind", "Dirty Old Town", "Streets of London" and a lot of The Beatles output to name but a few?

It is a product of it's age (written in 1963) and has stood the test of still being sung better than most. Whether it deserves to is another question.

For those interested Carter's own take and rationale for using Simple Gifts can be found here.

Lord of the Dance

Steve

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:55 PM

our international audience won't get the dark satanic Mrs Mills reference. which is a pity.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:55 PM

From: Peace
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:06 AM

Y'ever notice that lots of "guests" show up on threads like this?

Ain't it time to close that loophole?

   Just for the record, I actually am a member here at Mudcat. I just happen to be at work right now. The reason so many of my posts are as Guest,Neil D is because I have so much free time at work. Once all my programs are running I can watch them with half an eye and Mudcat is one of the ways I pass the time and keep myself awake. At home, where my cookie resides, I usually leave the computer to my wife since she gets so much pleasure from her online games.
   That being said, I really don't see what difference it makes and I don't know why my last post provoked that response. I was merely pointing out that at least one Rabbi seemingly does not find Sydney Carter to be anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:10 PM

Guest,Gerry, the perfect example of the politically correct gone completely mad. Sydney Carter must surely be revolving in his grave. I wonder what the PC's would make of Crow on the Cradle?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

Well, maybe I'll sign up one of these times. I refuse to let my browser save cookies, though.

As a DJ, I feel I'm helped by being alerted to the associations a phrase like "the holy people" can raise in people.

Who is Ms Mills, anyway, and why are people saying these things about her?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:25 PM

(apologies to the spirit of William Blake for the preceding comment.)

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM

I hadn't realised that 'the new agey-wagey' extended as far back as 1963 the year inwhich Lord of the Dance was publish. We live and learn.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:33 PM

I doubt that Carter had anti-Semitic intentions in writing "Lord of the Dance." However, the song does reflect almost 2,000 years of Church teachings that were at the heart of Christian anti-Semitism and that paved the way for the Holocaust.

It was only in the 1960s, that the Pope offically disavowed the Church's traditional stance of the Jews being responsible for killing Christ.

The question of anti-Semitism in "Lord of the Dance" is not new. It's been discussed for years and was addressed in a Quaker publication in 1999.

Perhaps you folks who are so quick to condemn or mock Gerry should read the article.

Here is a link to the PDF of the article.

A Quaker acknowledgement of anti-Semitism subtext to Lord of the Dance

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: MMario
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:37 PM

Of course here you get into intent versus perception.

Can anti-semitism be read into the lyrics? yes.

Was there any intent of anti-semitism? Most likely not.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM

The so-called offending line can mean anything you want it to mean, much the same as anything else. I've read that article before, and it didn't change my opinion when I first read it, and it doesn't change it now. Before anyone begins jumping up and down, I am a Jew, and I am not offended.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

Nice summing up MMario. How true.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

I just noticed this on the Stainer and Bell website:

: The tune is an adaptation of the Shaker tune 'Simple Gifts', but is accepted and acknowledged
: as a separate copyright in its own right
: It's not 'Traditional' - it is fully copyright throughout the world, and as such, permission
: should be requested for reproduction on web sites and in 'order of services' etc

How have they (and Carter) managed to get away with that mendacious bollocks?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:02 PM

I know this might be radical thinking, but just maybe Stainer and Bell and the estate of the late Sydney Carter have the necssary permissions.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

You can write lyrics to a traditional tune and copyright them, surely.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:39 PM

Reading the Quaker article, it seems to me that a significant element of the anti-Semitic interpretation hangs on the understanding of the phrase "holy people". According to one of the earlier posts, in the Hebrew bible this phrase is used to describe the Jewish people. However, I have never come this expression in general English usage ("chosen people", yes), and I doubt that most people who are not Jewish or bible scholars would put this interpretation on it. I have always taken it at face value - the religious authorities who objected to Jesus's activities.

Would most people hearing the song understand it to be a veiled attack on the Jews? I doubt it. Does a somewhat obscure interpretation which apparently took more than 30 years to come to light make it anti-semitic? I don't think so.

That's easy for me to say - I'm not Jewish. But it occurs to me that to get worked up over this, when there are many real and serious examples of anti-semitism, shows a misplaced sense of priorities.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:50 PM

Howard Jones,

It is not an obscure interpretation that took 30 years to come to light. The issue was discussed for many years before the Quaker article was published.

John Allan Cameron, the Canadian folksinger, was a seminary graduate who almost became a Catholic priest. Lord of the Dance was the theme song for a television series he had in Canada in the mid-1970s. The issue of possible anti-Semitism was raised with him then and he stopped singing the offensive verse. That was about 25 years before the Quaker article.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:50 PM

Stainer and Bell are claiming copyright on the *tune*, not just the words.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:52 PM

Farewell Farewell, written by Richard Thompson and recorded by Fairport Convention on Liege and Lief is set to the Fause Foodrage tune now commonly used for Willie O Winsbury. A recording of Willie O Winsbury played and sung by Thompson was included on the boxset RT.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:53 PM

As I said, just maybe permissions were granted as regards the tune.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: john f weldon
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:08 PM

I always liked LotD despite a complete lack of religion. Holy People (to this modern ear) brings images of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Surely they're the ones (to slightly reword William Jennings Bryan's old campaign slogan) who would crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.

A video comment I made a year ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9fdpqwCFRM

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Ravenheart
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

The Friends' assembly's concern "not to engage in any activity that causes pain" seems very to the point when the interpretation so hinges on the experience and worldview of the audience/listenership, who may be motivated by other thoughts than "political correctness."

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Precisely as I said. Do the strict rules of grammar control the interpretation of a poet's meaning? We all know better than that, don't we?

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM

I will continue to perform the song as written by Sydney Carter without a single verse missing. As I have already stated, I am Jewish and I am not offended by the song

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:35 PM

Interestingly, every year when I am on the air on Easter (and I am not Christian) I always start with the Addis/Crofut melding of Simple Gifts into Lord of The Dance.

I have always loved those pieces and as far as L/D is concerned I always felt it a wonderful melody with the usual poetic license to announce that the protagonist (i.e. Jesus/Christ) is a leader who will always return to show us the right path into a happy world.   I I don't believe that the words should be taken that literally.

A member of the station staff has mentioned to me a number of times how much he loves Smple Gifts and finds L/D offensive.

Joe Offer: As to From A Distance I don't know what would be offensive about that---or make one uncomfortable--unless the belief in a god makes one so.   Julie Gold, the writer, is alive and well and in this case one can go to her website and contact her for any enlightment.   

I recall a number of years back she supplied me with the song as done by artists from all over the world and I was able to put together a 15 minute sequence in so many languages on the radio show---TRADITIONS/WFDU

Another interesting tale is how the song became such a hit for Julie Gold's songwriting.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 04:57 PM

Should song lyrics be judged by the same standards as poetry? Poetry can be pondered over and levels of meaning extracted - song lyrics have to be seized on as they pass by, and must usually be more direct. That's why poems seldom make good songs, and vice versa (with notable exceptions, of course)

Were the words obviously anti-semitic and clearly going to give widespread offence, then it would undoubtedly be right to alter or omit them. But that's not the case with LOTD, and even some Jews have said that they don't find it offensive. Where a meaning is ambiguous then it seems reasonable to me to accept the more obvious interpretation, especially in the context of the song as a whole and from what we know about the author.

There will always be some who will seek to find offence and will take the less obvious meaning. Some singers will choose to alter the words to avoid any possibility of giving offence, no matter how mistaken, and they're free to do so. However to me it seems unreasonable to be expected to change the words of any song simply because some might misinterpret it.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:19 PM

I knew Sydney very well and found him to be a very decent English type in the mould of Flanders and Swan and his songs were usually set to obvious trad tunes. He was a committed Christian and although not overtly anti-semetic, his creed would not allow him to agree with the Jewish faith. If only the melody to Lord of the Dance is performed and named as a Gift to be Simple then it is not in copyright but call it Lord of the Dance, then Sydney's Estate holds the rights.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

If the tunes are identical, then that cannot be good copyright law.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:04 PM

The tune (to Lord of the Dance) is an adaptation of the Shaker tune 'Simple Gifts', but is accepted and acknowledged as a separate copyright in its own right.

Simple Gifts has been adapted or arranged many times by folksingers and composers. Probably the best known example is by English songwriter Sydney Carter, who adapted the Shaker tune for his song Lord of the Dance, first published in 1963.

the tune was composed in 1848 by (Elder)Joseph Brackett Jr and is described as a Quick Dance or Dancing song.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

I very much doubt if the tune was composed in 1848, or in America, or with a Christian purpose in mind. It's quoted in Bartok's Second Rhapsody for violin and orchestra (1924, I think - at any rate long before Copland used the tune), and given exactly the same sort of treatment he used for folk tunes from eastern Europe - it's a ferocious stomping dance tune. He never used any tune from the English-speaking world, as far as I know.

My guess is that it was an old secular folktune adopted for religious purposes and taken to the US by the Moravians.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:01 PM

"My guess is that it was an old secular folktune adopted for religious purposes and taken to the US by the Moravians."

Jack, that's worth looking into.

As I see it, the issue surrounding the words is neither Carter's lyrical intention nor the finicalness of the "politically correct." The significant point is the quoted stanza's potential for mischief. By that I mean the aid and comfort it could give, however unintentionally, to antisemites, who - if they listen to the words in question - may nod their heads sagely and believe that Carter shared their bigotry.

If antisemitism were no longer a live issue, we could scoff at this. We, after all, know better. Unfortunately, the targets of antisemitism may well be made highly uncomfortable by the potential of those particular lyrics, especially when they're sung in a public venue.

It doesn't matter much what the author intended in a case like this, because the people doing the interpreting in either direction are unlikely to have heard assurances that Carter meant to single out the Pharisees only. Worse, while it was Pilate and Roman soldiers who ordered the stripping and ripping, the song doesn't mention the culpable Romans, just culpable "holy people." One fills in the blank according to one's knowledge or prejudices. Had Carter instead written something like "all the hypocrites," there'd be nothing to argue. Presumably he didn't think of it.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:04 PM

Quotes from the Freedom and Justice Crier, cited above:

the FGC hymnal committee has wrestled with the concerns raised about "Lord of the Dance" by presenting Carter's explanation that "the holy people" refers only to certain Jewish priests and stating that, "'they' refers to the authorities responsible for the crucifixion, mainly the Romans." Rules of grammar tell us that the
pronoun "they" can only refer to the subject of the previous sentence, "the holy people."

Note: Carter's explanation. The author of this passage is willing to regard 'rules of grammar' as more convincing evidence than what Sidney Carter actually said.

We do not believe that anti-Semitism was Sydney Carter's intention in writing these words, nor that this is the intention of the hymnal committee or Friends who sing "Lord of the Dance" today.

So: no anti-semitism in Carter's writing; no anti-semitism in Friends' singing. No problem, right?

Singing the third verse of "Lord of the Dance" in its current form carries with it a well-documented, devastating historical and religious burden, no matter what our intent. ... Declaring our innocence does not remove the hurt that we cause by invoking these words. ... Each time we sing this verse together we lend emotional power and the appearance of support for what is in fact a lie.

"What is in fact a lie"? "'The words 'the holy people' in line 2 refers to the Jews" - that's a lie. "'The word 'they' in line 3 refers to the Jews" - that's a lie, too. "This song could be understood as anti-semitic" is a true statement, but also meaningless - show me the song that couldn't.

Besides which, the proposed improvements are either mealy-mouthed and clunky -

"Many holy people said it was a shame"

or just historically & theologically wrong -

"And I danced alone to the cross to die"

Jesus was crucified, in the passive voice - he didn't volunteer for it. And the holy people, of that time and place, were pretty much unanimous in deploring what he did, particularly on the Sabbath. To decry this kind of thing as anti-semitic, as someone said upthread, simply gives anti-anti-semitism a bad name.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:21 PM

Muswell,

I am with you on this.

The true test to this silly discussion would be to ask someone who is actually antisemitic if the song is agreeable to them and their beliefs. If so then we have the straight stuff and we will all know which side of our high horses they can truly be mounted from.

Since I am not antisemitic my opinion won't matter or have any weight.

Don

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:29 PM

"Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?"


                   Ask Abe Foxman. According to him, everything is anti-semitic.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:33 PM

If we could all find a way to stop getting our panties in a bunch over such interpretations as these, we might well have peace on earth.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:34 PM

Like Howard Jones there, I have never come across the expression "the holy people" - as opposed to "the chosen people" as a term for the Jewish people. Except of course in the context of this very strained, tortuous and daft "controversy" about Sydney Carter's song.

And that article and discussion "A Quaker acknowledgment of anti-Semitism subtext to Lord of the Dance" doesn't make it any less strained tortuous and daft - Quakers are just as capable of the occasional outbreaks of daftness as anyone else, they just tend to be rather better mannered in arguing out such matters than the rest of us.
.........................

As for the song being "trite", I think that falls into the same trap as the complaint that Shakespeare and the Bible is full of quotations and hackneyed phrases.

Subject: RE: Was 'Lord of the Dance' anti-semitic?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:00 PM

No - is the word we are all searching for.