BS: Lets not kid ourselves.

Subject: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

The stated rule is "no personal attacks".

The actual rule, as enforced has always been "do not respond to personal attacks."
Which seems to me to be another way of saying "do not feed the trolls." Can we not extend this very reasonable rule to "do not encourage the personal attackers."
It is a reasonable rule expecting a degree of maturity and self control from the members.

Perhaps that is the way it should be. Perhaps that should be the stated rule. Perhaps in practice, it should apply to all and not just to one person.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:21 PM

Sounds reasonable.

But, JtS, there ALWAYS will be a gray area. (grey? I always find that, ah, vague, eh.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:33 PM

I don't know what, if it is a particular one, personal attack you might be referring to. But my experience on internet forums, including this one, is that not everyone defines 'personal' or 'attack' in the same way. Disagreeing with someone has been described as a personal attack. Disagreeing with someone's belief set has been descibed as a personal attack. Pointing out that someone is being illogical has been considered an attack. Defending one's own point of view has been considered an attack on another person.

My own rule of thumb is to avoid interacting, if possible, with people who will indulge in personal attacks on me if provoked. I sometimes draw the line when they attack someone else. Sometimes it is important to confront mean-ness or bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM

Agreed! Mr Bumface!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

I'll assume a sub-prime loan was taken out to start this thread. Because I predict a foreclosure in it's future.....

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:52 PM

"Agreed! Mr Bumface!"

I shall decline to respond!

Gnu, Bee, you make excellent points,

But plenty of clear personal attacks do not go unchecked. In fact it is not the stated goal of the moderators to try to recognize them on their own. The person being attacked is to make a complaint to the chief moderator.

The issue I see with "keeping the peace" as the current method stands, it that there can be and have been any number of attacks from one direction, but the peace is not broken until the attackee responds.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 02:57 PM

Let the attackers make fools of themselves, just sit back and laugh, it's quite simply the best way to deal with a given situation, that attitude really annoys the attacker as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

Ok,..no personal attacks...what is the subject??..No personal attacks???? ...if so, that is completely stupid...if not, what is the subject of this thread?????

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: GUEST,Roger the Choirmaster
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:06 PM

Aggrieved? Mr. Bumface!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: fat B****rd
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:11 PM

I don't know, or can't tell, if people start threads with the sole intention of stirring things up/being offensive or whether some folks actually think they're bringing somethibng valid, interesting or useful to the site.
MOST people here seem to be fairly genuine and usually polite but there have been numerous threads lately where a simple difference of opinion has escalated into cyber war with far too much malice.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

My experience has been that alerting the chief moderator about a personal attack is not a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: Muswell Hillbilly
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:29 PM

Malice in Wonderland you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:32 PM

You can only really become offended if you take this whole site too seriously....many of the names (including mine) are not real and some...I said some of the people live in cloud cuckoo land...not living with reality...some others come here just to wind others up. It has been said so many times before..if the kitchen is too hot...leave it. There is however, much to be learned in the music section and many valuable opinions to be gleaned from BS...pick and choose I say. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM

I never take any of this stuff personally, which tends to make me less than sensitive to how personally others might feel about a given message.

There have been a few occasions when I meant only to express a simple difference of opinion, but was surprised to learn that someone took personal offense.

In such circumstances, I will normally express contrition (that is, say "I'm sorry") without really meaning it. What I would say if I didn't censor myself might be more along the lines of, "Tough shit, you thin-skinned weenie!"

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

Trolls are one thing. Personal attacks or insults that come from two established mudcat members, that genuinely are offensive to a member are another. In the heat of the moment, people have either misunderstood me, or I have misunderstood them. One way or another, it seems to get resolved, either with an open apology or a PM, as it should be. I gather you refer to someone who does nothing but either bait people, or just makes constant abusive posts-F***asma comes to mind. I would agree that someone such as that is a problem.
In any case, thats my two cents.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 04:46 PM

No, Irish I'm saying that if the tactic is good for trolls, it will probably work as well for others.

If for instance a group of people started a thread baiting another member because of something he had said in a previous thread. Then the policy could give that person some cover and he would not feel obligated to defend himself.

A lot of people in good standing here make personal attacks. Calling another person stupid, calling them names, comparing them to equine backsides etc.

The unofficial, but enforced, policy seems to be to let that go until a retaliation or a complaint occurs. Therefor "no personal attacks" is not really enforced.

What I am suggesting here is that since that is the mode of enforcement then that should be the official policy. The ultimate result of that may be lest cognitive dissonance and therefore less strife.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: irishenglish
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:01 PM

I get your point JTS, but if such an event occured, I may not feel obliged to defend, but you bet your ass I'm going to defend myself, rules or no rules. And like someone said above, I could say to you right now, "Oh Jack, this is silly, why did you have to make a stupid thread about this." If you weren't thick skinned enough to take that (not saying you aren't, I'm just using an example here), you could say to me-IE, you made an attack on my thread, on my thoughts, or even on me-you called me stupid! That definition of a personal attack is tricky. I know some people don't like strong language either, but its not banned on here. You can ask, and say-hey guys, I don't really like that kind of language and see what happens. THe reality is as well, that there is a certain milder form of personal attacks that come across as playground-ish. You pushed me-I'm telling my mom on you! compared with the F-bomb style, which tends to get noticed a little quicker. Is it perfect-no, but you've been on here a long time, I should think you have seen it all by this point, and you keep coming back.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets not kid ourselves.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:13 PM

Being thick skinned helps one stay here. As does giving what you get. My most recent tactic is the purpose of this thread, let it go, let the attackers wear themselves out and strain their own arms patting each other on the back.

The point you make is a good one, but often the intent of the barbs are pretty clear, and obviously teasing in a playful manner is only done among friends. When it is extended to strangers, it is obviously meant and felt as an attack. We need only remember our playground days to recall this.

There are personal attacks in this forum, below the line that, on one thread at least, amount to gang mockery. An image comes to mind of a man on a soapbox surrounded by pooh-flinging monkeys. I would advise the person under attack to do as he is doing, if he finds the remainder of the company here worth his time. But still the spectacle is a sad thing to witness.

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Sorry, but I'm not going to allow a discussion like this.
-Joe Offer-