Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!

Subject: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM

Well I never though I'd live to see the day! Little Seth, described as "Folk Hero" in the TV commercial for Poor Man's Heaven, is at No.8 in the album charts.

Let's just let that sink in – it's a folk album and it's in the top ten!

Great news for folk music.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

I know a folk album advertised on TV, wow, fabulous. Hope for us all.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:04 AM

Ring out wild bells.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:09 AM

YES!

(I don't doubt the usuals will be along to say he's not folk, but screw 'em.)

YEAH, Seth!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:14 AM

He's doing what he likes and he has done it without massive hype and the support that pretty young things get from the media. That means he has plenty of guts and integrity - whatever you think of his music. He is undoubtedly a real folk musician. He can play like one and he knows his folk music. Whether or not his current music is "folk" music... I'll leave that to others to fight out. Good luck to him. He's done bloody well.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:19 AM

If what he turns out bore a resemblance to anything I'd recognise as folk music, I might be joining the celebrating.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

What's it got to do with whether it's folk music or not? If you like it, cheer. If you don't like it, don't cheer.Several other records are currently in the charts, also. Same applies.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:28 AM

What's it got to do with whether it's folk music or not?

It's got to do with the title of the thread, opening comments like "Let's just let that sink in – it's a folk album and it's in the top ten!" and other comments in the thread.

I don't like what I've heard of it either.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

Aw, come on! If it's not folk music, it's the nearest thing to it that's likely to be enjoyed outside the narrow and claustrophobic world circumscribed by "the edict of '54".

Well done, Seth, you've stuck to your guns and you've earned it!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:37 AM

Surely delight in someone achieving their dream is not affected by how some quite different person classifies the music? The lad's done well. So have all the other people in the charts, haven't they?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:43 AM

I'm responding to comments made in the thread and reading that this album is a great folk album and a good thing for folk. Surely in that context, I'm entitled to my opinion the work bears no resemblance to folk.

Also, in the context of the thread, I'm believe its reasonable to express my view that I would be delighted to hear that something I do recognise as folk did well in the album charts.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:44 AM

My own opinion is that his chart success reflects his choice and performance of songs, ie. he's a wannabee pop singer, but I suspect he will draw a lot more people into folk music and that is a good thing.

eric

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM

I'm glad for him. Whether an interest in his music will generate a desire to see what folk music is like is another question...time will tell.I have met quite a few young people coming into folk at the moment, and I can't recall anyone mentioning this particular route in, but maybe that will develop?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:00 AM

In one way I would say good luck to him. I'm just unmoved in the context of (or the way I'd read) the thread.

----
I'm unsure about the material attracting others into folk.

Part of me says there is always a good chance that someone may tune into say MH or go to a folk festival to hear SL and find they like other material they hear.

Another part of me says the material is so far removed from what I think of as folk, I'm doubtful people would hear the connection.

Time will tell.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:00 AM

Sorry, I forgot. It can't be folk music because it's popular and enjoyed by people who wouldn't know Cecil Sharp from a kick up the arse. A folk album in the charts? I'd better start taking more water with it.

Right I'm off to listen to a couple of hours of massed melodeons to get my perspective back.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:03 AM

The Dubliners were popular and had a chart hit. The Spinners were popular and had tv series... I liked them and think of them as folk.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:09 AM

As I've suggested here, an English "folk hero" (Theleveller) would surely use the medium of his/her OWN folk culture, rather than employ American pop/rock techniques. It's a case of going-pop to be popular.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

Jon, of course you recognised them as 'folk' - they wore Aran sweaters. Unmistakeable!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,stonker
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:13 AM

Hi GUEST,Jon..

guess by that 'criteria' you probably have high regard for

Val Doonican as a bona fide Folk Hero !!!???

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM

For what it's worth I agree with the Leveller. Given that most of what gets marketed as folk in the mainstream is gloopy singer-songwriter stuff that's only a shade away from poor old Jimmy Blunt, seeing Seth in the top ten is a bit alright.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:20 AM

Can't say I assosciated those groups with Aran sweaters.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:24 AM

As it happens I did like Val Doonican but I'm not sure about "folk hero"... btw, if I have one of those, it's Barney McKenna.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:25 AM

"Val Doonican as a bona fide Folk Hero !!!???"

Absolutely! I came to folk music via Val Doonican and Jim Reeves, so who knows how many many Seth will pull in.

To Jon and WAV, just let me say: horses wear blinkers to keep them looking ahead so they go on plodding along the same straight furrow instead of realising there's a whole, wide, beautiful and exciting world out there.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:30 AM

Poor horses.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:31 AM

"btw, if I have one of those, it's Barney McKenna"

Barney McKenna? But he's a banjo player - what has that got to do with folk music, or music at all, for that matter?

Sorry! Only joking! BTW it wasn't me who called Seth a Folk Hero, it's how he's described on his TV commercial and I thought it was rather amusing.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,The Bastard Son Of Marty Feldman
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:47 AM

"So have all the other people in the charts, haven't they?"

Not really Greg. It's all complete hype and the chart has been bent since its inception. No matter, it's great to see Seth flying the flag. I remember seeing him with Sean and Seth donkey's years ago at the old Easter Festival at London's Barbican. He/they were awesome then.

Jon wrote "If what he turns out bore a resemblance to anything I'd recognise as folk music, I might be joining the celebrating." - YAWN!

Let's rejoice. Somebody out there is promoting OUR music. I, for one, am delighted about that!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: the button
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

I think it would save space on the forums if we had one compendium thread: -

"Vaguely successful folk artists: slag them off here!"

*sigh*

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:03 AM

"Vaguely succesful folk artists: slag them off here"

Great idea button...but shouldn't we add "young" to really hit the mark..:-)?

baz

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: the button
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:09 AM

If the internet had been around in 1904, no doubt there would have been threads slagging off Joseph Taylor for the release of Brigg Fair on a commercial record label. :-)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:12 AM

As I noted above, it simply doesn't work out.

I for one have enjoyed very successful folk artists.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:13 AM

I quite (well, nearly) like his stuff, and he seems a pleasant young fellow, - but as I said elsewhere I am less keen on the fact that I find the melodies of the folk songs he does do (eg "The Setting of the Sun") unrecognisable. I am probably less than half convinnced that it is "folk" but I had no difficulty recognising most of the output of Steeleye Span, and some Fairport Convention as Folk, and even some of Bluehorses as nearly folk (well, OK, I think they do do a folk song or two).

I have nothing against Folk Rock. Indeed I like it. But I'm not so sure that Seth Lakeman qualifies more than occasionally. Nonetheless I am looking forward with a mixture of anticipation and foreboding to hearing the album, and I'll make up my mind whether I like THIS album, when I hear it.

There is no reason in the world why you can't rock 1954 definition folk.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:20 AM

All sounds very jolly - maybe too cheery to be folk?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RnSI9JaHjvs

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

"would surely use the medium of his/her OWN folk culture, "

But he does! He just does it in the way he understands it. If he introduces what you see as outside influences then he's just doing what folk musicians have always done. And if you think that ain't so then where do think the polka and german came from? Or the fiddle or flute?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:26 AM

You're absolutely right, Mr Happy.

So here's some better news. This week several dozen folk albums will be launched to complete media apathy and destined for almost total obscurity.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

I looked up a video of Seth Lakeman singing a song, something about a Lady in a Lake. What he is doing is performing a folk-like song in a rock-type production.

Notice the emphasis on his beautiful physique (brings in the young female fans). The opening shot of his violin shows an instrument with clots of something on it - fungus, maybe. (It's probably not what he really plays.) Then there are his cheap, worn clothes - clothes that say 'I'm not cleaning up for the likes of YOU!'

It seemed a little odd when he put the violin down and the violin music kept playing.

Like many a pop music video, it flips madly from scene to scene. I guess this is what pop fans have come to expect. As for me, I quit watching halfway through. I don't put up with that.

As for his voice, it's pretty good. He can carry a tune. I've heard other young male voices which are virtually identical to it, however. I couldn't understand many of the words he sang, which is another reason I lost interest. I do suspect that if he sings in that tight, emotional style for long, he will start having problems with his larynx.

However, if he teaches fans that it is all right to watch an act which does not include electronic instruments & a lot of fancy lights etc, and if they learn that a singer does not have to destroy his voice with harsh screaming, then his act is a very good thing.

I wish him well.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: KeithofChester
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:44 AM

"All sounds very jolly - maybe too cheery to be folk?"

No they're NOT ALL cheerful. Try this sinister little number, one of three co-writes with Steve Knightley on the album.

I'll Haunt You

The whole album is here. Relentless (EMI) gave the BBC exclusive streaming rights.

Poor Man's Heaven

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: quokka
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

To the button: if the internet had been around in 1904, June 16, James Joyce might have had a very different life...lol...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 11:56 AM

...........Ulysses par exemple!!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:01 PM

It's been my experience tht many members of the so-called 'folk community' always seemed to and seems to have a problem with the success of various musicians. I say, good on ya Seth and keep the music coming, regardless.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Why can people not hold an opinion of their own, why is it necessary to contradict them vehemently when they don't agree with your points of view?
I don't like Seth Lakeman, what difference does that make to you, or to him. ZILCH.
GROW UP!

G

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:42 PM

It is quite extraordinary, the number of seemingly rational people(from the top British folk journalists down) who apparently feel everyone, as a social duty to folk music, ought to like Seth Lakeman, and also ought to believe his music is folk music.Why? Why ought anybody pretend to like something they don't like? Why should anybody pretend to think something is folk music if they don't?
OK, I think everyone should like Peter Pears. And everyone should recognise that the music he makes is folk music.Does that make sense? Of course it doesn't. Never heard anything so silly in my life.
Personally, I think it is great that the Arctic Monkeys get records in the charts. What does this prove? That I like the Arctic Monkeys. So what?
If our Jon likes the Dubliners, and doesn't like Seth Lakeman, how can this be a problem?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:44 PM

..as I mentioned on at least one of last years

" Seth is 'brilliant/shite' " threads..


his CD "Kitty Jay" reminds me a bit of the feel of "Led Zep 3",
which was quite a considerable influence on me when I was about 14
and starting to muck about with guitars with my schoolmates..

I find "Kitty Jay" a very enjoyable 21st Century folkrock album.

I particularly enjoyed his live promo TV performances for that CD..
especially his solo sessions in a fiels somewhere;
just him and his voice and violin, stomping out the rythm
with hefty clomping raw enthusiasm.

The mrs bought his next CD "Freedom Fields", both versions.
I thought that one was a touch too oriented towards MOR pop-rock market.
But at least the less refined earlier 'indie' kitchen studio version appeals better to me,
than the 2nd corporate lable big studio money remake.

So right now I aint got a clue what the new CD sounds like.
Daresay the wife will buy it soon enough,
she thinks he's ace.
She also preferes the overproduced studio version of "Freedom Fields".

Personally, he's the kind of artist I'd be very inclined to
seek out any bootlegs,
of lo-fi home demos and garage/shed rehearsals..

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:46 PM

It's not a problem for me, I don't like The Dubliners, but that's my opinion.Personally I'm neither here nor there about Seth Lakeman and the rest of the west country folk mafia, all I was stating was my personal experience with other people.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM

West coutry basket weavers, aren't they the "raffia"?

I'll get my coat.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

Has he done something brave?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

I am always happy when a musician with folk roots or a folk influenced history gets well-deserved attention on the ol' airwaves.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

The man is from a folk music-playing family,writes in a modern folk music style, on acoustic instruments, about the area where he is from-why on Earth isn't it folk music? What the hell else is it?
Why are some of you people so narrow minded about this? Honestly, why and how do you think to define him out of "your" chosen arena simply because you don't like what he does? What precious, horrible arrogance. And some of you have clearly never heard him, only heard of him, the fact that you have being enough to condemn him!
I went to see John Tams and Barry Coope at Glastonbury this year, and they played a set of what I would consider to be soft acoustic pop on synthesiser and guitar. It isn't what I like, really. Some people consider John Tams to be a folk hero, likewise people like Show of Hands, who again, I would say are pop or soft rock singers. But it isn't up to me. As far as they are concerned this is their interpretation of this genre and they place themselves within it because they feel an affinity to it. In a lot of ways they keep the scene and my job going, so fair enough, as far as I care what people wish to do outside of the mainstream is folk music if it isn't traditional.
The folk scene should surely be about supporting independence from the mainstream; it so happens that success can spring from that. So do we abandon people the minute that happens? Leave them for cultural dead? To be a folksinger must inevitably mean to be unable to make a living? Why?
Some guy on this board the other day said he wouldn't consider what I do most of the time to be English traditional music "in a thousand years". Twenty years, is all I say in response. Fifteen of those specialising in English traditional music, studying, evangelising, practising, in a way that I thought would benefit the scene that raised me. Not to mention the family...
I'm not saying that Seth has any sort of ambition beyond making his music and making a living out of it. But he is one of our's, and he is not harming us beyond creating opportunities for us to harm ourselves like doomed stereotypes in forums like this. Like the music or leave it, but you shouldn't confuse personal taste with righteousness of purpose. If you don't like the diversity of the folk scene maybe it is that that isn't for you. Maybe you're not a folkie either.
I don't think I am any more. Most folk music on the scene leaves me cold, but I don't presume to dictate what others should be doing any more. Traditional music is something else, will survive, that's what I care about.
I'm sorry this isn't written very well. But I find these kind of prejudices infuriating.
x e

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:03 PM

Here here and amen.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM

"Traditional music is something else, will survive, that's what I care about.
I'm sorry this isn't written very well."

Are you kidding me? That was eloquence personified.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:13 PM

PS

Eliza, I love your music.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:15 PM

The man is from a folk music-playing family,writes in a modern folk music style, on acoustic instruments, about the area where he is from-why on Earth isn't it folk music? What the hell else is it?

Pop music.


Honestly, why and how do you think to define him out of "your" chosen arena simply because you don't like what he does?

I use 2 measures. One for "folk song" and these days, for that term I'm somewhere near the 1954 outlook.

The other is whether I hear anything about a piece of music that I might recognise having a connection to what I think of as being folk. I could for example have played a Pogues album and without knowing anything, have detected some folk influence. I simply can not do that with much of what I've heard of SL.

0I went to see John Tams and Barry Coope at Glastonbury this year, and they played a set of what I would consider to be soft acoustic pop on synthesiser and guitar. [snip] like wise people like Show of Hands, who again, I would say are pop or soft rock singers.

Interesting...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:27 PM

Out of curiosity, who in this thread has not heard any SL material?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Folknacious
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:44 PM

I can't see that Seth being in the album charts can do us or the musics we variously like any harm at all. The worst thing that could happen is that it'll do no actual good, but I sort of think that's unlikely, actually.

Now if Eliza's and Jim Moray's new ones could follow it in there as well, sharpish, that would be a might fine thing. A revolution even. Mind you, Mudcat would probably self destruct with righteous indignation at that point.

Give them (and us) all a break! Have you looked at what else is in the top 10, for heaven's sake?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:52 PM

Is Seth short for anything?

Perhaps its West Country rhymming slang for Jeff...

As in Speak up, I'm a bit Mutt and seth.

If he went into heavy metal, he could MegaSeth.

I think he has a big future, already the possibilities are suggesting themselves.

The last Seth I remember was Seth Adams on Wagon Train. The Indians got him and John Macintyre had to take over.

I'm not really sure why this young man's career raises the hackles of so many folkies. But it does.

It could be that one is still quite literally as welcome as a fart in a space suit in many clubs with a traditonal bias - and somehow he hasn't been made to eat crow like many other contemporary folkies. In fact he seems to have bypassed the usual diet of shit suppers and rejection - that has been the lot of many great talents. that's bound to inspire jealousy from contemporary folksingers.

And the traddies will be pissed off because they haven't been able to swat him down and do for him with their accustomed ease and destructiveness.

So that's two sources of animosity. Eliza, surely you've worked that one out.

The best thing will be for him - if he succeeds - really gets some sort of crossover thing worked out like shania Twain did with country music, like years ago Steeleye did. then everyone will want to be his friend.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

Definitions are for shop-keepers, seeking to oust someone from the scene they grew up in out of personal taste is narcissism. I was brought up to believe in solidarity. If it's rubbish, fine, don't buy it. But some folks here clearly place worth on their personal definition and keep him out of it in some prurient cathartic excercise. I'm tired of people questioning young performers' motives simply because they work differently from previous generations. It is not confined to this thread, this is a straw and camel's back moment for me.
Sod it. I'll be the first to come clean. We're all in it for the money, the millions that can be made from folk music.
Some svengali is running us all like puppets and keeping me and Seth and Rachel Unthank in all that gold and diamonds we clearly flaunt all the time. And we love it, because our parents clearly failed to instil any love for tradition in us, and we stick around on the folk scene, just to push it in your faces how shallow we are, hahaha all the way to the bank. Nothing to do with tradition or art or passion. Yep.
whoo-hoo! 'bye suckers!
xe

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:58 PM

I've listened to all the Lakepersons, over many years.

As I've said before, I don't especially like what "Seth" (or Sean or Sam) is doing these days, the violin abuse and yelping in particular, but it's his right to perform his music how he wants and it's mine (and anyone elses's) to listen or not. (I draw the line at conceding any right to smoothie production companies to try to pass his songwriting off as "trad" though . . . )

Eliza said: Most folk music on the scene leaves me cold, but I don't presume to dictate what others should be doing any more.

Indeed. Me too. I actually loathe the "scene" (such as it is) and have never taken much of a part in it. I don't give a toss what music gets in the charts. It's all manipulated, rigged and of little consequence. kRusby, Tams & Coope, Beer & Knightley: yeah, it's all quite nice soft rock, but hardly worth crossing from one tent to another at a festival to see (not that I personally bother to turn up at many of these at all nowadays.

Actually, I don't really know what I'm doing here at all. I've almost given up even lurking as there's just so much worthless detritus to wade through. I'm off to try some Playford and baroque tunes on my new keyboard.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:00 PM

I read a load of bollocks in these threads.

Folk club wise, I favour a variety of venues specialising and being broad as they see fit...

What is quite abusurd is the reaction my "If what he turns out bore a resemblance to anything I'd recognise as folk music, I might be joining the celebrating. " seems to have triggerd.

That's my opion, I'm sticking with it for reasons I've given. I'm not telling anyone else they must think the same way as me nor am I putting reasons into the mouths of others.

GET IT?????????

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:06 PM

I'm off to try some Playford and baroque tunes on my new keyboard.

Would that be an electric keyboard?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

Of course. Who can afford gas these days?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:08 PM

Utah Phillips said that the best way to make a million at folk music was to start with two million.

Is there any chance we can kinda pretend we all like each other? I ask that because I'm doing my best not to drop a turd in the punch bowl.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:11 PM

Go Eliza! Go Eliza!

Oh that some more of the young traditional singers out there were as persistently, entertainingly and passionately gobby and outspoken as you...

What a breath of fresh air after some of the shite that Mudcat generates week in, week out.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:13 PM

A gas operated keyboard, no that sounds like something the late great Spike Milligan would have come up with to go along with his Hational Health gas-operated teeth.

Yes But Is This Folk Folks?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:14 PM

Oi Peace! Dontcha dare! I was eying up that fruitbowl!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:15 PM

erm, punchbowl!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,stonker
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:21 PM

Just heard EC's on radio 4 in the next few minutes..

Might be a laugh if its a live broadcast interview,
witnessing the mood some of you seething resentful old ****s
have put her in.........

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

Who's resentful?

The comments some of you are making are moronic.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:24 PM

Eliza will survive intact, stonker, she has so far, and done a good job of it, so don't you worry.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:44 PM

Nice one Seth, nice one Eliza! Don't give a monkeys if either of them are "1954FOLK" or not, they're producing good stuff and getting people of all ages interested in folk music. This is a good thing.

However, I must take issue with that Leveller fellow about this abomination:

"Barney McKenna? But he's a banjo player - what has that got to do with folk music, or music at all, for that matter?"

That is just blind prejudice against a vulnerable section of our society, may you rot in the fires of hell.....and buy the first round at Pickering!

Paul

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

Just waiting for you to see that, Paul! At least I had the decency to apologise, though.

Do you ever wish that you'd never started something because it turned into Frankenstein's monster?

I agree with (most) of what Eliza said but I'm sorry I missed her on t' radio just now, didn't get to hear the end of the Archers either.

Are we about ready for the 'folk is a broad church' line and a nice cup of cocoa?

Think I'll just go and put Freedom Fields on (the one recorded in the kitchen that's been signed by Seth (and I laughed at the time and said 'That'll be worth something one day when he's famous - which, of course he never will be'!!!!!!!!!)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:13 PM

Eliza Carthy Will Be Appearing Here

Martyn Joseph too

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM

Front Row will be on the replayer for a week. It was what it says: Eliza explaining what is f*lk, what is trad and what's the very real difference.
Go and put on Dreams Of Breathing Underwater instead and never mind the sodding cocoa. Oranges and sea salt, they don't go together . . .

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

Traditional music tells wonderful stories
So Does Seths
Traditional music gives us history and legend and often binds the two together.
So does Seths.
Traditional music gives us a unique sense of melody from which to build new music.
Seths songs reflect just that.
Traditional music gives many of us a definitive sense of place and a feeling for who we actually are.
Seths music does this
'World' music gives us music that is regarded as 'popular' in its home environment. Perfectly bound up in and seamlessly linked to tradion.
Seth is giving us just that.
In a dumb celebrity culture where non acheivers can become household names and earn obscene sums of money it's refreshing to find a young man who has worked hard and created something worthwhile out of the building blocks of our past music and culture. By making something new out of it, he carries the thing forward. I for one am utterly delighted.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

Traditional music tells wonderful stories

Most of the traditional stuff I do has no words.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:41 PM

Most of the traditional stuff I do has no words.

Yes but fortunately we're not all singing or playing the same thing, are we?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:45 PM

No and I think I did jump the gun there... It's just I often read what amounts to "what is folk" definitions which somehow exclude what is to the largest part of my personal enjoyment in traditional music, ie. the dance music.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,stonker
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:51 PM

well, if anyone can't dance to Seth Lakeman's energetic rythmic fiddle playing..

time to pull over the sheets
and get a Dr to write out yer exit certificate !

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:52 PM

Nice post, Mr Beer!

Bring on the musicians, I say! Always worth listening to.

Lovely view from your studio, too!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:57 PM

Take, as an example, the tune Mr Isaac's Maggot. No words, but the chap and his very jaunty personality is described exactly by the music. Present day composers writing in the tradition say lots without speaking. I'm thinking particularly of John Dipper's Ruskin Mill, Hunting Houses and that one about a journey whose name I can't remember.

Though what this has the do with the charts I've no idea.

Outta here.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

Guest,Jon-
I wasn't picking on you, and I did explain that my post is the end result of reading a lot of these very prurient posts towards younger people, over an amount of time, not just the end result of reading one thread or one post. My part of the protest wasn't all about you, sorry if you felt that it was...I do get it, and I don't need the caps lock in order to.
I was also agreeing with you in my way, because the folk scene does not contain as much traditional music these days, and as a result I don't like it as much as I used to. They are all still folkies apparently, so maybe I'm not. If Seth is what people like on the folk scene and you don't like him, maybe you're not either. Just a thought, not an attack. Scenes change, definitions change(I have no idea what the 1954 business is all about, maybe it has clarified things on this board though, so I'm not touching it). That was my point too.
Although I don't think Seth is as good as the Pogues (yet, i'll give him time, he's not done), I see and hear no difference between what he does and what they do, it's all rock-based folk music to me. But that, I stress, is just me.
x e

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

OK Eliza, sorry I got angry then. A couple of comments.

1954 definition is a traditional view - taken in, passed on orally, etc. in a community.

My personal folk scene is very much the small one. Preferably playing in Irish instrumental sessions but it can include singarounds or informal folkclubs (and I'm not much of a one for concerts). I'm happy with a mixed trad and contempory repertoire but more and more, I find myself preferring the trad direction.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:28 PM

Look, all I was trying to say was that when 'folk' (whatever your definitions), or folk-style/based musical entertainment manages to be enjoyed by a wider audience than one would normally expect, it's good.


Isn't it?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:40 PM

Still with the Leveller on this one.

Though I'm more of a Ranter.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 05:38 PM

Hi, Leveller, Hi, e, Hi, Button,
I started out in the early 60s with my ear glued to an old radio trying to pick up absolutely anything that sounded like folk, mostly American. I then hit the Waterson wall and was knocked out. I say good luck to Seth, if he draws in only one extra youngster to respect and enjoy any sort of folk it's gotta be good!!!

SteveG x

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:02 PM

The wonderful Miss Eliza Carthy said-"The folk scene should surely be about supporting independence from the mainstream; it so happens that success can spring from that. So do we abandon people the minute that happens? Leave them for cultural dead? To be a folksinger must inevitably mean to be unable to make a living?"

The wonderful Mr. Phil Beer said- "In a dumb celebrity culture where non acheivers can become household names and earn obscene sums of money it's refreshing to find a young man who has worked hard and created something worthwhile out of the building blocks of our past music and culture. By making something new out of it, he carries the thing forward. I for one am utterly delighted.

Well said, both of you. And a reminder that with people like Seth, and Eliza, and Phil Beer, and John Tams, and Jim Causley, and John Kirkpatrick, and The Young Coppers, and Kate Rusby, and Kathryn Tickell, and......you get the point, we have an across the boards representation of traditional music, whatever your own particular likes and dislikes may be. I for one am not particularly enamored of Jim Moray (sorry Eliza!)-he just doesn't do it for me, or as Eliza said, he leaves me cold. No harm, no foul. I'm a huge Great Big Sea fan. They do a mix of traditional Newfoundland music and pop songs. I probably only like about 40% of their pop material-a lot of it I think is ok, but its dime a dozen, it could be done by anyone. Seeing them live, and hearing a large crowd-and I mean thousands, not hundreds of people, but at their larger shows, thousands singing Lukey's boat, General Taylor, Old Polina, etc. is just awesome. People who got into them for various reasons, most of them probably not via the usual folk route, who now have a starting point for future listening are now exposed to folk music. The same thing happened to me (you can read WAV's Glastonbury Folk Festival thread to see how it happened for me),and if Seth's success brings more interest from anyone, I say its worth it. Nice words again, Eliza and Phil!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:06 PM

I am sorry to have to disagree with Eliza Carthy, since I am consistently in awe of her musicianship and her interpretation and furtherance of traditional (narrow meaning) and folk (slightly wider meaning) music. However, if the expression "folk" is not to be anomalous, being used in one sense of music and in another sense of other arts and means of expression, then it s only the 1954 defintionthat makes sense (at least no-one yet has put forward any other that convinces).

The 1954 definition does permit accretions to the body of folk music, by adoption and modification, and it does not preclude interpretation (or amplification).

It is not a matter of liking. As I said, I could quite like some of Seth Lakeman's stuff (but I quite like some Bob Marley, some ragga and quite a few metal and death metal and rock bands, not to mention a whole pile of cock rock and what we used to call R&B back in the 60s). However, it isn't only shopkeepers who need definitions. All of us who need connections to our roots need to know what those roots are.

The oddity is that in many settings that is considered a given. It was even in tonight's re-run of "Star Trek, the next generation" - Worff's adoptive parents recalling their efforts to ensure his connection with his heritage. It was a given of the early Afro-American consciousness raising. Yet for some reason it seems to be anathema for many in the context of English folk music.

Ho hum.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM

One thing we must consider is market and sales. The category singer-songwriter hardly exists on site, in magazines OR on the www. Regardless whether one is Indie or released thru an established label, CDs come down to two things in the market place:

1) profit from sales and

2) profit from airplay

Most "folkishly oriented individuals" get PUT under the category Folk. They don't fit anywhere else except singer-songwriter (folkish, rockish, hiphopish, etc).

FWIW

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:27 PM

The most well intentioned performer is at the mercy of record stores as well, because those (such as are left) feel the need to either pigeonhole everything, and come up with a category for everything, or just dump anything that isn't rock or pop into the "everything else" category. So, as Peace just said-folishly oriented individuals get put under the umbrella folk category. I can't even begin to tell you some of the strange places I have found CD's filed in sometimes! I used to work at Tower, which was pretty good about that sort of thing. At other stores, I swear sometimes things got filed by cover art!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:17 PM

I just don't like the use of the word "hero" in relation to skill in performing or creating.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

hi Richard,
I still don't know what this 1954 definition is, I'm sorry-it must be buried in the forum somewhere, but since I think that folk music and traditional music are two different things, I'm not sure it would help me.
I am a strong, vocal advocate of understanding one's roots, cultures and traditions. My interest and background are in English traditional music specifically and the way that tradition operates more generally, as well as enjoying writing my own music based on what I know as a modern person with this background in this community and the wider society in which I live, musical and otherwise. I am one of those people that likes to see an unbroken line from tradition to pop as well, that when things work right there is a natural discourse and common ground between the two.
I agree that it isn't a matter of liking, whether or not Seth Lakeman is folk. He is folk to me in the same way Bob Dylan is, or Steve Tilston, or Rory Macleod, or Stan Rodgers, or Jake Thackray. All people generally considered folk by the folk around here. He's certainly not rock, or hip-hop, or disco, or any of the many pop sub-genres; he's certainly not traditional music like the Coppers or Almeida Riddle.
I think people say things like "he's not folk" in order to exclude him; on this board that statement is often emotionally very weighted, and used preclusively, I think that's unfair.
x e

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Gulliver
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:46 PM

I started listening to SL last year, after reading about him here on Mudcat. I like everything I've heard so far. I don't know much of his background (and don't particularly care), but I've always thought of him as a singer/songwriter, like, say, David Gray or Paddy Casey. Don

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Folknacious
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:07 PM

Well said EC. Seth Lakeman's put in the same box as you and us by so many in the media/ music industry that he is bound to cause some - maybe a few, maybe a lot of - new people to come and look inside, potentially interested. There's nothing we can do about that, and anyway why wouldn't we want such a beneficial thing to happen?

Now, whether the other musical pigeons fluttering around in the hole are attractive to them or not is another matter, and certainly not Seth's fault. Many of them clearly should be. It's the pigeon watching malcontents and the pigeon-hating masochists who lurk in the bottom of this hole who are more likely to scare them off again. With luck our newcomers will spot enough of the Eliza breed to get drawn in.

I'm also with Eliza on asking what this mysterious 1954 in-crowd business is about. Could somebody provide a link or a short explanation?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:16 PM

Well actually the 'he's not folk' slight has been aimed at many of us, and we have learned to live with the injustice of this vile accusation.

Poor old Jack Hudson has been labelled a 'pseudo yank' by the traddies who have tried to define themselves by rejecting anything that flirts with Americana.

Jack himself told me of a time, he said to Martin Carthy - Do you think Tom Paxton is a folksinger then?
And Martin answered, My God no!

One is put in mind and perhaps in the position of Shylock:-

SHYLOCK:

Signior Antonio, many a time and oft

In the Rialto you have rated me

About my moneys and my usances;

Still have I borne it with a patient shrug,

For suff'rance is the badge of all our tribe;

You call me misbeliever, cut-throat dog,



What can one say - Seth Lakeman! woof woof!
Perhaps your generation is wiser, Liza!
(that's almost a poem)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:19 PM

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives … The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community … The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character"

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:01 PM

..and as i seem to recall suggesting not too many years ago
when that statement was previously copy & pasted in another thread..

that sure sounds as acurate a defining manifesto
for mid 1970's provincial council estate punk rock
as i could ever hope to prescribe..

FpOuLnK aint dead quite yet !!!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:30 AM

I am in agreement with Eliza Carthy and Phil Beer on this one. I believe we have a fine (and at times not so fine)heritage that makes me happy to be called English (apart from those so called BNP patriots),and although I understand why 1954 keeps cropping up, I've yet to understand how, and by whom, it was agreed. Some academics perhaps, or maybe the people who were just doing it at the time. Whichever way that was then, and this is now and in my view the 2008 model will be looked on very differently in 2062.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:42 AM

I re-read my post of last night, and I seem to have made myself obscure (as i often do).

What i was trying to say was:-

Eliza, surely you realise you are a member of one of the most exclusive cliques in folkmusic. (Bob Dylan knows my dad,etc)

Look how all these people genuflect and the sycophantic protestations, before they disagree with you.

Most days of the week some of these wallies will scratch your eyes out for singing fidde di dee!, if Walter Pardon sang fiddle di doh!

You can't really come to us and say, hey we're running this great inclusive movement - when so many of the flock have dedicated themselves to excluding people - and sometimes really quite worthy people.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM

An inclusive movement?

I don't recall Eliza C saying anything horse-related ("all music is f*lk" bollocks).
As clearly reiterated in the Front Row interview last night, she was stating the bleedin' obvious: that there is traditional music and there is a wholly meaningless monster labelled "f*lk", a category into which anything vaguely acoustic is slung, regardless of quality or worth.

As oftimes repeated, it is my view that the term "f*lk" should be binned forthwith on account of its terminal uselessness.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:05 AM

Right! Gotcha!

and the same wallies are going to decide the quality and worth of human endeavour...

You know for a moment I thought sanity had broken into the temple of the lord.

Silly me!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:16 AM

What Eliza also said (and I did too) is that you decide for yourself what you rate and what you want to listen to, or not.
People will do (and play and sing) stuff you don't much care for.
They are allowed to and (sometimes inexplicably) make money out of it.
It's useful (both in marketing and in aesthetic terms) to define exactly what you are talking about.
That's accuracy and has nothing to do with exclusivity.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:18 AM

Ooh - 100, on a significant thread. Back shortly with real input!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:21 AM

If the 1954 definition is the 'law' then the 'law' is a ass...

"Do what thou wilt" is the whole of the law.

BTW when a traditional tune is used by a composer such as Vaughan William, is it folk or classical music? When a traditional song is used by a rock/pop band such as Thin Lizzie, is it folk or rock or pop? Point is, who gives a stuff?

If Seth can be described as a "folk hero" in his TV commercial, what does that make Eliza; a "folk goddess"? Hey, I'll go along with that!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

Al, read my folking lips! Whether something is "folk" is nothing to do with whether one likes it. It is a definition that enables folk music, dance, and arts to be distinguished and maybe understood.

And as another socialist, you should understand that I do not genefluct becuase of family, but ability. Remember, I am always polite about your ability even if what you do is not folk (*maybe "yet", see below) (and so long as you do not play the sodding grand piano or banjo).

The other thing you know but deny is that arrangement (eg fiddle-de-dee in stead of fiddle-di-die) is anything at all to do with whether somethign is folk - or intrinsically of merit. Folk evolves precisely because of variation, sometimes intentional, sometimes not. If enough people in a community start to sing "Buster, the line dancing dog" and it evolves in that community it will become folk music, as Robert Johnson's compositions became folk music in the USA, as Tom Paxton's and Pete Seeger's and Woody Guthrie's (all USA) and some of Steve Tilston's; and Ewan MacColl's and Bert Lloyd's (and maybe even Billy Bragg's) compositions are currently evolving in some hands and probably will become folk music in due course. It'll be longer before they become traditional.

As the facts stood at the time, what Martn Carthy said was exactly right (but then I happen to think he usually is.

To come right back to it - Seth Lakeman does do some folk songs. His overall sound has a fair buzz to it. I wish his folk songs were more recognisably the songs they used to be, but as he is the artist and interpreter I cannot criticise his chosen arrangements simply because they do not sound like the way I would (if I could) arrange the same songs. That does not make them "not folk". It might make them not to my taste, but that is a different thing.

Oddly, since some of his songs came to him through oral transmission in a community evironment, he may at times be a folksinger. At times he is definitely a folksong singer. But when he is singing his own original material he is neither. So, for the "Folk" part of the question - sometimes and maybe.

As for the "Hero" part, I'm not sure if I agree with Magrath's view that a hero has to do something brave or risky to qualify. If that were so many "guitar heros" would not qualify at all. Has Lakeman done something of exceptional merit that makes him a role model? I thnk the jury must still be out on that, but for my money although what he does has brought some music with some connection to folk more into the public eye and ear (which must be good in parts, although it also colours the public perception of what "folk" is, which could be bad) I don't think he has earned the accolade "hero" yet.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:47 AM

Well done Seth! I have enjoyed listening to your music at some of the Folk festivals I have been to ......

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:48 AM

Leveller, you should not, as a leveller, adopt the defintion of the Hell Fire club - they were bored rich parasites who played at black magic for the sex. And frankly their descriptions of felching were pretty nauseating.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:57 AM

Richard, I was thinking of Aleister Crowley, actually. He painted that across the side of a Scottish mountain. As a lawyer, would you not say that the law is open to a degree of interpretation? Personally, I vere towards anarchy.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:23 AM

Thanks Jon for posting the 1954 definition of "folk" / punk rock.

But really important supplementary question: WHO made up that definition, and where/ how/when was it published?

Some definers are more reliable than others: I'm not going to put a lot of weight behind the Louis Armstrong stable;, for example . . .

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:00 AM

As always you are in the right Richard. fiddle di dee and fiddle di doh are in so many ways totally unreconcileable.

Personally I live in hope that Paul Simon will nick Buster the Line Dancing Dog like he nicked Scarborough Fair off Elza's Dad, and then the whole world will be dancing Busters Boneseach - the official Buster the Line dancing Dog line dance. Though Tex from Stockport who devised this dance warns that it is fraught with danger for beginners.

Who knows perhaps Dylan will write a variant

If you travel in the North Country fair
Where the winds hit heavy on Wigan Pier
Remember me to Buster the Line dancing dog
For he is prettier than a picture by Van Gog

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:19 AM

If the 1954 definition is the 'law' then the 'law' is a ass...

No folk definition is the law. They just represent a view some people hold.

Personally, I find the view better that definitions based on things like "music written by the people for the people with meaningful words about causes".

Folk contains all sorts and has been written by all sorts and the only binding factor I can find in the traditional repertoire is that people liked the stuff enough to sing, play and pass down. I don't believe in "follow a forumula" and you have created a folk song.

OK, the views of others do differ and I accept that. I will state my views and try to explain them but (seemingly unlike a few others) I don't demand they must be adopted by all or call others asses for thier views.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:20 AM

I suspect that anyone who ever willingly stood up and performed in front of a folk club audience would have probably dreamed of the acclaim which has been afforded to Mr.Lakeman.
He has been well-marketed, but I leave it to the individual whether they like his music or not.
I don't understand the term "Folk music" anymore, I know the term terrifies many people at the thought of having to attend a function with "folksingers" and I find myself in large agreement with Diane Easby's recent posting on this matter.

Mr. Lakeman is certainly not a "Hero", however I do wish him luck in his endeavours.

Maybe it is simply a case of some people in the folk scene needing to have Stars and Heroes, as other forms of music appear to have.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:21 AM

(missed my name above).

The 1954 definition was drawn up by "The International Folk Music Council".

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:34 AM

I suspect that anyone who ever willingly stood up and performed in front of a folk club audience would have probably dreamed of the acclaim which has been afforded to Mr.Lakeman.

I suppose within my dreams, I'd be lying if I said I'd never dream pt of stardom but I'd still answer "not really". I do it sometimes but these days especially, I don't enjoy performing to others and am far more comfortable in sessions.

Acclaim, I guess would be nice but I fall way way (and a few more miles again...) short of the standards. The one I'd dream of being wouldn't be particularly in the public eye but a sort of "master musician", perhaps only known by other musicians.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:35 AM

"The International Folk Music Council".

those of us who lived through those times can only too readily imagine them. I bet it was like the Brish Trades Alphabet - given out to all school kids.

We sent off to Cadbury's - and they sent us leaflets about gallant black men harvesting cocoa, before going home to their mud huts. We sent off to Robertsons marmalade, and they sent us leaflets about about gallant spanish people picking oranges all day before going home to do a bit of bullfighting. gallant Australians shearing sheep all day and singing Clip go the shears Boy!

and when we got the leaflets - we did projects on them.

You can just imagine the International Folk Music Council, I bet they made the Eskimo leave his kayak outside the conference hall.

The world was stupider in those days - we need to wise up!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:44 AM

"I don't demand they must be adopted by all or call others asses for thier views. "

No-one's demanding anything (well I'm certainly not) just trying to bring a light-hearted touch to stop things getting too heavy. Unfortunately, you can't see the tongue that is very firmly in my cheek. I'm permanently on the run from the folk police - just hope they never catch me; the punishment would be terrible (no, no, not the hours of massed melodeons.....)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:47 AM

It's a difficult medium, I agree, Leveller.

Anyway, what ever tempers are raised in these threads, wherever we disagree and how strongly (at least within reason) we argue. I'd still buy you a pint if you wound up a Norwich session.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:48 AM

They'll get you far that theLeveller ;-)

John Barden

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:57 AM

Personally I prefer the Bert Lloyd definition that it is as easy to define a folk song as it is to depict the exact moment that dawn breaks and night turns into day.
When I saw Seth Lakeman at Off The Tracks festival in 2005 he played two elongated sets on the open air stage when it was bitterly cold and blowing a gale which kept most of the attendees either inside or huddled around the periphery of the courtyard. This meant that he was virtually playing to a wide open space with no apparent audience. Not once did his standards drop neither did I hear one word of complaint;the term "folk hero" might have crossed my mind on that occasion.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:00 AM

Thanks, Jon, same here if you get up to t' far north.

John, they'll have to catch me first!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Deeps
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:07 AM

Jon, free beer in Norwich? I'm on my way, we'll raise a glass to our mutual hero 'Banjo' Barney.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:15 AM

Your on!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:41 AM

Folks come on this site and pontificate about what is and isn't folk, and moan about the demise of folk clubs and the folk tradition. Those that slate Seth Lakeman for what he does are part of the problems they complain about!

I've covered Seth's songs in folk clubs, and they are very well received; can't always say that for some of your more "acceptable" folk songs.

Rock on Seth....

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:44 AM

Talk about shitting in your own nest

Its not a good idea


Most of the population think we are made for liking the music and song that we do (trad and folk) and here we are giving more and more evidence that we are indeed barking mad and making it as hard as possible for those outside of the temple to get a look in

As if they would want to on the basis of this type of thread

eliza is so great when she's angry!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:48 AM

"mad" rather than "made"

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:01 AM

Some of Seth Lakeman's fans seem to be very angry all the time. Shouldn't they they be a bit pleased he's doing well?
Why this subject generates such heat I have never managed to grasp. Surely we don't need to accuse people of hating youth, just because they aren't Seth Lakeman fans? I am sure someone could say "I don't like Amy Winehouse" or"The Young Tradition leave me cold" without the wrath of God, Mudcat and Colin Irwin descending on them. So what is it about Seth Lakeman fans that they always carry cudgels? Personally, I am an immense fan of These United States, but if I meet someone who doesn't like them I don't accuse them of having Aran sweaters, pot bellies, beards and tankards. I just say "have a listen, you might be surprised".

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:07 AM

Well - as an example of polarity here we have Eliza's talent and opinion on the one hand, and Diane Easby's on the other. Bitterness from frustration is something I'm very happy to do without - helps you to live longer apparently. Do we wonder why our folk clubs can't seem to attract any generations beyond out own?

Too many Dianasaurs in folk clubs?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:13 AM

I may not have followed this thread perfectly, but has anybody actually said they object to Seth Lakeman being popular? or object to him being successful? or object to him making money? or object to him being young? or object to him playing the music he chooses to play? or think there is anything wrong with the quality of his work?

I thought someone just said they didn't recognise it as folk music.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:24 AM

Oops.
What I was going to say is directed at WLD-I'm not part of any exclusive clique. No-one I know would refuse to know you if you came up and shook our hands.
What I am part of is a family, a musical one, and I can't help that. I can't help that my family has worked since the turn of the last century (my grandparents on my Dad's side were casually involved in the earlier folk revival) to broaden the musical gene pool of this scene and study and practise the music. The reason they are well-known is because they are good at what they do and believe in inclusivity, in the ability of anyone that wants to take up the music as a hobby or a profession-they have helped lots of people to do that, whether through their research , workshops, or just making records of previously obscure or forgotten material that can be returned to the community.
   That's how we do it, and yes I have a head-start, and I am extremely lucky for that, but I do not place any value in it over anyone else's level of involvement beyond seeing it as an opportunity to open more doors. Some people have a problem with that, some don't care, some will be flattering to me and mine, which is lovely as long as they can drop it at some point and still want to have a good fight with me afterwards! I don't expect people to agree with me. That's no fun at all...
I was brought up by my folks to believe that the folk scene is all about inclusivity. Bless them, idealists, they were wrong. They know. Most people don't like to think about this, but the folk scene is a music industry and as such is as vulnerable to fads, crazes and cultural dead-ends as any other scene.
x e

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:24 AM

What a weird post from somebody called LJW. Does s/he often have such eyesight problems?

(1) Eliza Carthy and I were saying roughly the same thing.

(2) Hands up anyone who's seen me in a "f*lk" club this year? I think I've been once at the only one I don't avoid like the plague.

(3) My name is not "Diana". Clearly LJW does not know me.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Andrez
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:27 AM

Thanks to the two people who posted links so that non UK 'catters could see and hear what people have been debating (sic)!

In the end I reckon its better to enjoy playing or hearing the music you can today 'cos you might not be around the next day to bitch about whether or not its really folk.

Definitions of "folk" are nothing more than constructs that people have assembled at one time or another and then use to control is what "acceptable" or otherwise in terms of the music. Religions use similar strategies to promote their world views too.

Whether or not SL's music is folk or not boils down to a matter of opinion and in my world everyone is entitled to that opinion. So if you like the music, then thats great, if you dont like it say so and then shut the f..k up and dont try to promote those views over those of other people by using academic or "rustic" definitions of what folk music might or might not be.

In the end the music just is, and time will decide if the music has any lasting qualities to be included in the public canon. The thing is that its likely that none of the contributors to this thread are likely to be around to see what happens.

In the meantime, I think that Seth Lakemans music is a breath of fresh air in a sargasso sea of old folk fogies. Good on him for doing something different and having a go! My 14 year old fiddling daughter will love it when I show her the clips tomorrow.

Cheers,

Andrez

PS: Reminds me of that old joke:

Q: How many folkies does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Change?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:30 AM

I know you well from your rants on this site Diane - sorry I'm not able to spell Dinosaur correctly

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:33 AM

but the folk scene is a music industry and as such is as vulnerable to fads, crazes and cultural dead-ends as any other scene.

I understand something you said earlier a little better now. I do feel as if I "belong" somewhere within folk and do feel part of it joining in with others (of all ages) and that folk music is for me but using that "definition" of the folk scene, I think you are right and it isn't for me/I don't belong.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Kev The Clogs
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:41 AM

All very interesting! I have a wide liking of many forms of music, yet it was only six years ago that I was "exposed" to the world of folk.

I LOVE IT! I have listened to many "Folk" artists during that time - some I like, some I don't like. Whether of not they ARE Folk is not important to me at all. I certainly don't want to base my listening habits on that pompous piece of 1954 pre-Orwellian thought police "rule".

I am an unaccompanied singer. I have learnt and sung songs that I have heard in pubs, from albums and at concerts - ranging from Eliza to Show of Hands to The Young Coppers to John Barden to Richard Bridge and Pete Hicks. A mixture of names there - some "folk stars" in the world of folk, some stars in the world of the local clubs and festivals. I would happily stand up an sing any number of songs that I have listened to, and then learnt, from any of these artists.

I would not do so in a Karaoke, as I woould be laughed out of the building. The Cheeky Girls would have the same response if they played Sidmouth!

I think what I am trying to get at is - that Folk is BIG, it's just made up of lots of different small pieces!! What I like, you may not. What I might think of as traditional, you may not. All I know is that when I sing and I can get the reaction of loud applause, or tears because it has touched someone, then that is down to hearing these songs somewhere else and then passing them on, in my way and style.

"And when we leave this mortal shore we'll meet with those that have gone before.
And shout to think we'll gain the day by marching in the good old way.
For I have a sweet hope of glory in my soul, I have a sweet hope of glory in my soul.
Well I know I have and I feel I have a sweet hope of glory in my soul"

What and who have gone before, are here now and are to come in the future - share a common link - we are individual folkies!!!

Kev the clogs

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:43 AM

LJW has been posting on this site as a guest for a grand total of one week.
I've been a Mudcat member for five long, tedious, exasperating years.
And for over 40 years I've donned every industry hat there is.
If/when I rant, there's a reason.
Seth Lakeman is a jolly nice person but I'm not at all keen on what he does musically.
I don't really think he minds.
He does what he does effectively and is not silly enough to expect everyone to like it all or even any.
It's the Sethettes who seem to think that it should be thus.
A bit . . . narrow?.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:48 AM

Andrez is a prime example of the angry Seth Lakeman fan I was talking about. So someone does or does not think Seth Lakeman's music is folk: that's not something to get het up about. That's classification, it's not a personal attack. I don't think JS Bach was a folk musician, so what? Would his fans attack me for saying so? If you say "black and white striped animals are zebras", that's just the same class of remark.A question of classification. It's not saying zebras are bad, and it may be innacurate, but it's not anything to get your knickers in a twist about. Can't we just afree that some people like some performers, and others dont. Some people think x is folk music, others think x isn't folk music. Why trade insults?
My own personal position, by the way, is that I like music from many different genres, and from many different age ranges of performers. I have plenty of recordings of rock,folk classical etc. I have plenty of recordings of 20 year olds, and 80 year olds.And as far as I am concerned, people are at total liberty to like or dislike as they feel.
    I think I might try an ad on TV saying Greg is a Folk Hero. Do they do any good? Anybody know how much they cost?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:53 AM

Indeed, Snail. There are too many people over-reacting.

Had I not been informed by the wise words of Mudcat contributors and Mr. Harding, I would honestly not have been aware that his music was categorised as folk. However, I bear him no ill will, and his age, popularity, success etc. are not really of great import to me one way or t'other.

Many of the contributors on this thread seem to be of the opinion that if you are a folkie and don't like his music (and I think I qualify on both counts!), then there must be something wrong with you. Childish, really!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:55 AM

"five long, tedious, exasperating years." - bitterness and frustration..... and in five million years the barbed scales will be clearly visible to the archaeologist unfortunate enough to find them

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

What makes me angry is not whether you (greg) or anybody likes Seth's music or not (I am not a huge fan of it myself) but its when you and other on this site declare it not "folk" and therefore byond the pale/pail

Fxck the 54 definition

I KNOW what eliza and others here are talking about and agree with them

I object to a self centred, semantic based smugness and gate keeping that is not recognisable by me in the music that I love but is, unfortunately very evident on this Forum

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:01 AM

Good post kev the clogs

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:04 AM

...declare it not "folk"...

"it's a folk album"

Is a declaration.

"I don't recognise it as folk"

Is an opinion.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:05 AM

Ditto Mattkeen

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:09 AM

"I think I might try an ad on TV saying Greg is a Folk Hero. Do they do any good? Anybody know how much they cost?"

If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM

Re Matt Keen saying that I say Seth Lakeman is not folk, and therefore beyond the pale. Well, firstly, I am surprised if I ever said Seth Lakeman is not a folk performer, I always classify him as such.He is obviously a folk performer, in the ordinary usage of the word(though not in the 1954 sense) Are you thinking of someone elsae?
And, if I have said that(my memory isn't what it used to be, it never was),in what sense could that be described as putting him "beyond the pale"? It's not a rude remark, classifying something as folk or rock or classical or hip-hop is it? Or do you perhaps mistake "folk" for "good"?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:31 AM

No Greg I didn't say you said that
But you are an example of the semantic based smug smart arsedness that I dislike

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Andrez
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:32 AM

Sorry Greg, I had never heard of SL before this thread so I dont know how that makes me an "angry fan". I did check out the links provided and I liked what I saw sufficiently to investigate further sometime and thats it. 15 mins of exposure is hardly grounds for fanhood! But you obviously have a bee in your bonnet about SL's fans so go for it just dont tar me with your brush please.

After I read the whole thread I was responding to earlier points of view that seemed to echo the old and tired themes of "What is Folk". Your comment:

-And as far as I am concerned, people are at total liberty to like or dislike as they feel-

is what I was saying as well. Apart from the issue of SL's "angry fans" your "personal position" as stated is much the same as mine.

Go for it ElizaC, Kev the Clogs and Mattkeen too!

Cheers,

Andrez






I agree with Mattkeen and Eliza C are saying and I

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:07 AM

Greg's perceived "semantic based smart arsedness" is based on over 40 years involvement in ALL aspects of the "Folk" scene...not that he needs my faint praise. I think a shallowattack like that adds nothing to this discussion...sorry did I say discussion there?

Baz
who has a pot (rather more of a cauldron) belly, a beard, several tankards (although I rarely drink out of them other than to avoid the 50p deposit on a plastic that splits in 5 mins at festivals), but sadly the arran sweater shrunk in the wash some 30 years ago. And while we're on stereotypes, what happened to waistcoats with badges on them?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

They're Rioting in Africa (The Merry Minuet)

They're Rioting in Africa (The Merry Minuet)
(Sheldon Harnick)

Intro:
    There are days in my life when everything is dreary
    I grow pessimistic, sad and world weary.
    But when I'm tearful and fearfully upset
    I always sing this merry little minuet:

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.

The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles

Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much

But we can be grateful
And thankful and proud
That man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud

And we know for certain
That some happy day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

Long time - but whats that got to do with it?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:20 AM

What's what gotta do with what?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:24 AM

Cross post Peace


Anyway- apologies for singling you out Greg, its just that the attitude displayed here makes me feel angry and you were there

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:27 AM

Well, Matt, at 8.31 you are saying "No Greg I didn't say you said that".(said that SL wasn't a folk performer, that is).
Curiously, at 8.31, you said exactly that:
"What makes me angry is not whether you (greg) or anybody likes Seth's music or not (I am not a huge fan of it myself) but its when you and other on this site declare it not "folk" and therefore byond the pale/pail".

Do you really have no recollection whatever of what you said half an hour before? As it's obviously a subject you feel very strongly about, I'm surprised it doesn't stick in your mind for longer.As to being sematic based, I'm afraid I don't what that means, so I can't really defend myself. Sounds pretty bad though, if it goes with being smug and smart-arsed.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:30 AM

Matt: I see I have just crossed posts with you, and that you apologised. Thank you very kindly, and I'm sorry if I have trod on your toes in any way, likewise.I don't think folk forums, especially when discussing Seth Lakeman, are conducive to friendly chats sometimes. Let's have a beer sometime.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:33 AM

Will you two guys please be pissed off at me and I'll go have the beer with you? We'll discuss rock music . . . .

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:35 AM

This has to be a candidate for the funniest thread on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:37 AM

Don't you come the old semantic based smug arsedness with me Giok.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:39 AM

¦¬]

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:56 AM

Personally, I can't see where you're getting this definition of "old semantic based smug arsedness" from. It certainly bears no relation to the semantic based smug arsedness I'm used to - and I've been practicing it for over 40 years.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM

Does that make it traditional?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:11 AM

Guys, do y'all know about the comedians who numbered their jokes? If not, remind me to tell you. Anyway, OSBSA. Great logo, eyecatching. This could fly.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:16 AM

There were a good cross over band OSIBISA

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:19 AM

Nah The Pelicans were a better crossing

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:23 AM

More to the point
Will Berbatov leave the beloved Spurs?
Worse still, will Robbie go?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:27 AM

Sometimes teh wilful ignorance here drives me even madder than usual.

Folk/not folk is not the same distinction as
I like/I dont like or
Good/bad
Within the pale/beyond the pale.

It is a definition. If musicologists wish to understand the characteristics of folk music (which it seems some do) or if one wishes to understand the transmission of folk tales, or to study any sort of folk art or plastic art then one needs to know what "folk" means. And the usage ought to be consistent across the art forms and sociological investigations.

It is NOTHING to do with "self centred, semantic based smugness and gate keeping".

If you like folk music, fine, play it or listen to it. If you like something else, fine, play it or listen to it. But doom is not the same thing as death metal, gangsta rap is not ragga and is not trance, and folk is not the same as contemporary acoustic.



For those who actually are interested n folk music, and not in for some reason seeking to describe what they like or do as folk music (why, when they hold the real thing in such scorn?) to following are the notes from a study session I attended some time in the 70s. Al maybe you want to find out who the International Folk Music Council were before sniping at an aunt Sally.


Notes start.:

Folk Song in England

In 1954 the International Folk Music Council adopted this definition:—

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission.

The factors that shape the tradition are:
(i)         Continuity which links the present with the past:
(ii)        Variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or group:
(iii)        Selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from the rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular music and art music, and it can likewise be applied to the music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready—made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the refashioning and recreation of the music by the community that gives its folk character.



'Conclusions', by Cecil Sharp~

A folk song is always anonymous.
Modal melodies, set to secular words, are nearly always of folk origin.
Song tunes in the minor mode are either composed tunes, or folk airs that have suffered corruption.
Folk tunes do not modulate.
Folk melodies are non—harmonic: that is to say, they have been fashioned by those in whom the harmonic sense is undeveloped. This is shown:—

a.        in the use of non—harmonic passing notes.
b.        in a certain vagueness of tonality, especially in the opening phrases of modal tunes.
c.        in the use of flattened seventh, after the manner of a leading note, in the final cadence of modal airs.
d.        in the difficulty of harmonizing a folk tune.
e.        Folk melodies often contain bars of irregular length.
f.        Prevalence of five and seven time-measures in folk airs.

In giving evidence in 1835, Francis Place reported that ballads sung about the streets during his youth could not be adequately described in present company. 'I have given you in writing words of some common ballads which you would not think fit to have uttered here. At that time the songs were of the most indecent kind: they were publicly sung and sold in the streets and markets: no one would mention them in any society now!



Another consideration.

"The mind of the folk singer is occupied exclusively with the words, with the clearness of which he will allow nothing to interfere. Consequently, he but rarely sings more than one note to a syllable and will often. interpolate a syllable of his own rather than break this rule.

"O abroad as I was wordelkin'
I was walking all alone
When I heard a couple tordelkin'
As they walked all along"



The Greek/Mediaeval/Folk Song Modes ~

The scales on which many English folk tunes are based are not the same as those with which we arc familiar through classical music.
The Greeks were the earliest musical grammarians in Europe and laid the foundation of the scientific system which was to be, in a modified form, our inheritance for plainsong and folk song.

There were seven Greek Modes        (The white notes on a piano).
Dorian (Plato considered this the strongest)        D to D
Phrygian.        E to E
Lydian               F to F
Mixolydian        C to C
Aeolian               A to A
Locrian               B to B
lonian (our major mode
Nodus lascivus)        C to C

"Sumer is a--cumen in", our oldest Mss is in the Ionian Mode.

English folk tunes are most frequently found cast in the Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Ionian modes. Occasionally in the minor: Cecil Sharp wrote: "The majority of our English -folk times, say two~thirds, are in the major mode. The remaining third is fairly evenly divided between the Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian modes, with, perhaps, a preponderance in favour of the Mixolydian,

The pitch of the mode may of course be varied, the relationship of the notes being constant.



The Pentatonic_Scale

The pentatonic scale (five notes to the octave) is widely distributed in folk music and is found in the traditional music of many oriental countries. We also know that it was practiced in ancient times in China and Greece. It is common in Scotland and Ireland.

In its most common form it possesses no semitones, the intervals between the notes consisting of whole tones and one—and—a—half tones. It can be played on the black notes of a piano, or on the white notes, omitting B and B.

According to the relative position of the tonic, there are five pentatonic modes, though some scholars prefer to regard them as segments of the same scale.

English songs also show a number of Hexatonic (six—notes) tunes, usually with the sixth missing.

Sharp held the theory that the present seven—note diatonic scale is a development from the pentatonic scale,




Ballads

"'Therefore,' while each ballad will he idiosyncratic, it will not be an expression of the personality of individuals, but of a collective sympathy: and the fundamental characteristic of popular ballads is therefore the absence of subjectivity and self—consciousness. Though they do not ~"write themselves" as Grimm has said - though a man and not a people has composed them, still the author counts for nothing, and it is not by mere accident, but with the best reason, that they have come down to us anonymously." Child.

Romantic Ballads        Child Waters, The Gypsy Laddie, The Maid Freed from the Gallows.

Tragic Ballads        The Two sisters, Lord Randal, Barbara Allan.

Historical Ballads        Sir Patric Spens, Mary Hamilton, Queen Jane, The Hunting of the Cheviot.

The Outlaw Ballads        Robin and the Three Squires, Johnnie Cock.

Supernatural Ballads        Lady Isobel and the Elf—Knight, The Unquiet Grave, The Demon Lover, The Wife of Usher's Well.

Humorous Ballads        Our Goodman, The Farmer's Curst Wife,





Conventional Elements

Conventional_diction        cerbain archaisms not found in common parlance — a song about lords and ladies will use "steed", "morrow," etc.

.Conventional Epithet        "milk—white steed," "Lily—white hand," "Fair Margaret."

Conventional Phrase        Tears "blind the eye," blood 'trickling down the knee."

Commonplace        e.g., the rose—briar stanza.

They buried her in the old churchyard (epithet)
They buried him in the choir
Out of her grave grew a red, red rose (epithet)
And out of his a green briar. -

Opening/Ending Formula         "As I walked out one Nay morning,"
        'It fell upon a..        
        "Come all you young fellows and listen to me.





"Voice and ear are left at a loss what to do with the ballad until supplied with the tune it was written to go with…. Unsung, it stays half—lacking.'

Robert Frost.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:29 AM

That's all very well for you to say

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

Let's hope from now on everyone daring to set foot in a folk club makes damn sure they have read and understood the authentic definition from 1954. It will lead to ultimate happiness, and put paid to all the pap that has been masquerading as folk for all these years.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

..and build Bridges that will never fall

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

Shit, Richard, all I want to do is get up and sing a couple of songs. In that case I'll settle for contemporary acoustic.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Naughty, but nice
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

'Conclusions', by Cecil Sharp

I have that song, Richard! Oh, this is SO excitin'! It's on my 'Meatloaf Sings Ancient Folksongs In The PentatonicScale' LP! I came to the conclusion that Cecil had 'the hots' for Maudie, by the end of that song.

"The mind of the folk singer is occupied exclusively with the words, with the clearness of which he will allow nothing to interfere. Consequently, he but rarely sings more than one note to a syllable and will often. interpolate a syllable of his own rather than break this rule....."

No, the mind of a true folk singer is occupied with sex, murder, sex, death, sex, birds, sex, ploughboys, sex, country life, sex, ships, sex, parting, sex and......SEX!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Banjiman
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:02 AM

So what is folk again?

Lighten up chaps!

Paul

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:04 AM

I'm thinking of writing a folk song..... hmmm, how do I start.... erm..... I'll need a definition of what is "folk music" first, then I can settle on some basic parameters and start to think of some essential ingredients.....then how I might build appropriate notes into some acceptable structure...this Cecil Sharp White Paper might help...

For Christ's sake Bob - just write the f******g thing

"How many roads must a man walk down...."

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:06 AM

Can you speak up? I have this finger stuck in my ear!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:28 AM

While part of me appreciates the more academic approach Richard just presented, I don't feel compelled to have a set of rules governing me wanting to sit down and listen to some music. Its like someone saying I can't watch baseball in 2008 because I never saw Joe Dimaggio play therefore the game is different today, or I can't watch a movie because I haven't seen a Cecil B DeMille film, therefore I lack some sort of fundamental understanding of cinema. I do fully support traditional music, and not just of the British Isles. I am deeply interested in traditional music around the world, be it Colombia or Uzbekistan or Mali. But just like sports, and just like cinema, and literature, and art, and technology, I think there is an evolution that must be allowed to move ahead. Some could say, the very first time a piece of traditional music was recorded the music irrevocably changed. Some could say the very first time a song was transcribed in a book, the music was irrevocably changed. Some could say the very first time a bunch of academics assembled at some conference to discuss the state of folk music the music irrevocably changed. I don't know. I'll take your point about it not being a matter of liking it or disliking something, but as neither a singer, or an instrumentalist (yet!) I just know that it is something to be enjoyed, and I venture to say that most of the source singers that we all know and love, wouldn't have given a toss about what someone at some conference said about it how it should be defined. I'm a firm believer in knowing where something comes from, giving credit where credit is do, citing sources and all of that good stuff that traditional musicians do. But as was recounted in the Swarb box set a few years back, Swarb once said to Martin Carthy-You can do anything you want to music, it doesn't mind. A pint of beer for everyone concerned though-can anyone say this Friday night in NY city for my 40th birthday?!!!

Slainte

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:31 AM

Richard Bridge: I could cheerfully demolish most of Cecil Sharp's Conclusions for you...as am sure you could yourself as you seem to know what you are talking about. As could any folkie with the benefit of hindsight. But I won't bother as I think this is neithter the time, nor the place. (Hint, hint, know what I mean?)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

Wilfully ignorant, hardly, living in the past, definitely not, learning from the past and applying it to today's music, that's the idea, and 9 out 10 people don't give a rat's hind-quarters about 1954.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:34 AM

... does anyone know - did Cec ever manage to get his head round tuning in to Billy Cotton on his crystal set by the way - I know he was cursing "this f*****g new fangled gadgetry!" the last time I saw him

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:39 AM

Cecil Sharp collects Billy Cotton, now there's a thought..

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:41 AM

Cecil Sharp: now, he was certainly a folk hero.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:46 AM

As was Davey Crockett

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 11:58 AM

... but let's get back to building Bridges.... they must of course be built in the tradition - solid English Oak, and in the Roman style - like this one.... here's the definition, dates back a few years I know but they don't build 'em better; it'll stand owt this will - hang on, "Where the **** d'ya think you're goin' with that bloody gret Oil tanker...... Aaaaarghhhhhhh......

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,itstraddad
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

Bugger it.. now I'm begining to feel sorry
all those bright young ruthlessly ambitious
coke snorting Music Biz MBA qualified posh c@nts,
starting the first day in their first Executive job
as Recording Lable Marketing & Advertising Copy Writers....

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:27 PM

irishenglish, I think all you (perhaps) need to know is that "what is folk" (and what is a "folk song", etc." range from tight traditional ones like the 1954 one to the horses on (all music is folk music, I ain't never heard no horse sing a song). The views of people vary within this range and individuals can believe their own outlook is the only correct one.

When it comes to going to a folk club, I think you will find some are more open than others but they will have their own "what is folk?" limits and perhaps bias (eg. the last event with singing I looked in on was all contemporary stuff sung in "American" accents. It might well have been OK and they seemed a frienfly bunch, but I'd wouldn't have been sure if a trad English song would have been appreciated).

I think as a listener stumbling in somewhere, you simply decide whether what is on offer is to your taste or not. If it is, all well and good - enjoy it. If it isn't, wish them well but try somewhere else. As a participant, I think it can be an idea to work or find out what might fit in for the night as well as the above.

I think the same pretty much goes for sessions and theirs certainly no point in getting upset that my "Rakish Paddy" wasn't appreciated amongst the morris type players I was sitting with, that my "Winster Gallop" attracted strange looks in the Irish do I was at...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

"Whether or not SL's music is folk or not boils down to a matter of opinion and in my world everyone is entitled to that opinion. So if you like the music, then thats great, if you dont like it say so and then shut the f..k up and dont try to promote those views over those of other people by using academic or "rustic" definitions of what folk music might or might not be."

I've just cut and pasted this from higher up the thread because I think that it embodies many of the problems that those of us who have informed opinions about what folk music is and isn't, and think that definitions are important, face. It starts reasonably enough - few of us would disagree that "everyone is entitled to their opinion", but then it goes on to suggest that those of us who have an opinion based on background knowledge and "academic" definitions (don't know what a ""rustic"" defintion is) should "shut the f..k" up and not try to "promote those views over those of other people". This suggests to me that only the wilfully ignorant are entitled to an opinion ... possibly ...? If so this is hardly a temperate or reasonable view - presumably the author burns books in his/her spare time (?)

In addition just because I believe that something isn't folk music doesn't mean that I don't like it (weary sigh!!) or even disapprove of it. And even if I don't think it's folk music AND I don't like it there's nothing I can do about it EXCEPT express my opinion which (I insist) I AM entitled to do. If that upsets wilfully ignorant people then so be it (that is one of my missions in life, after all!).

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:03 PM

I would love to know what a 'rustic' definition is myself...anyone?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

Or Johnny Appleseed

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:33 PM

There's the music of friends and the music of commerce.

For example, when we have a family party and my brother gets out the guitar and we all listen or sing, that's the music of friends. Tonight I am going to a bluegrass concert at a music store. The audience will be at most 100 people. Performers and audience will look each other in the eye and reactions will be noticed. We''ll probably socialize some after the act. That too is the music of friends.

When somebody makes a music video with so many flashing, blazing lighting effects that I have to stare at my knees while listening, that's not the music of friends. That's commerce.

When a performer's personal beauty is more important than his musical talent,that's commerce.

When every number has the same tone, tonality and topic as every other number, that's commerce.

When it doesn't matter if people can understand the words, that's commerce.

When it doesn't matter if the lyrics hurt people by promulgating destructive attitudes, that's commerce.

When the person who succeeds is merely the one with the best publicity machine, that's commerce.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,itstraddad
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:34 PM

If anyone cares,
here's a Seth Lakeman [legal] free 5 track live mp3 download.

might as well have a listen to what all the fuss is about.

http://sethlakeman.co.uk/liveep/

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:35 PM

Folk/not folk is not the same distinction as
I like/I dont like or
Good/bad
Within the pale/beyond the pale.


Yes I understand that

I don't like your poxy definition, thats all

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

I drew attention a little earlier in this thread to the extraordinary anger that seems to afflict Lakeman supporters. A remarkable case, which provides food for thought, is the poster called Andrez. By his own admission he had never heard of Seth Lakeman till seeing this thread;said Andrez was shouting "shut the f**k up" at his perceived opponents.
    This all sems strikingly reminiscent of what happened during the Stones' notorious set at the Altamont Festival. Is it actually safe to have Seth on stage at a folk festival?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:35 PM

Why not? Do you understand "folk dance" or "folklore" or "folk arts" or "folk tales"?

And why is it poxy, did it come across an old firebucket in disguise?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:37 PM

Sorry, that got mangled somewhere. It should have read:

I drew attention a little earlier in this thread to the extraordinary anger that seems to afflict Lakeman supporters. A remarkable case, which provides food for thought, is the poster called Andrez. By his own admission he had never heard of Seth Lakeman till seeing this thread; yet after 15 minutes exposure to the music, said Andrez was shouting "shut the f**k up" at his perceived opponents.
    This all seems strikingly reminiscent of what happened during the Stones' notorious set at the Altamont Festival. Is it actually safe to have Seth on stage at a folk festival?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:38 PM

Paul Bunyan

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:42 PM

PS, matt - if you don't feel the need to understand the difference between "folk" and "not folk", why do you care about the definition? It doesn't stop anyoneplaying or listening to anything...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

This is not about Seth Lakeman is it Greg -

I am not a Seth Lakeman fan, as it happens


I don't feel the need for a definition

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

Bedford Jail

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Ah leenia, no offense, but take away the notion we are talking about folk/traditional/singer-songwriter, etc, and what you just wrote sounds like someone complaining about "that rock and roll" 50 years ago.

"When somebody makes a music video with so many flashing, blazing lighting effects that I have to stare at my knees while listening, that's not the music of friends. That's commerce." Ok, I'll give you this one, a video is made for pure promotion. But I've seen Allison Krauss videos, and just recently, I saw a few videos by Oysterband. Minus the flashing lights, etc, but videos nonetheless. I consider both of those to be the music of friends. Ultimately, it is about promotion, but if you've earned one dollar from the music you make, I don't care who you are, and what type of music you produce, you are going to find a way next time to make two dollars, then 5 and so on.

"When a performer's personal beauty is more important than his musical talent,that's commerce." Actually, Seth looks pretty much the same to me as he did back with Equation, so I don't think that one is true.

"When every number has the same tone, tonality and topic as every other number, that's commerce." That's opinion strictly. If I can sense variety within the 10-12 tracks on an album, there is no sameness.

"When it doesn't matter if people can understand the words, that's commerce." My wife loves the Dave Matthews Band. I've told her I can't understand him most of the time, but its more about the way he sings, not some devious plot of his to make people buy his albums. She has told me at his concerts lots of people know the words. She feels the same way about Richard Thompson, someone I never, ever would accuse of crass commercialism.

"When it doesn't matter if the lyrics hurt people by promulgating destructive attitudes, that's commerce." Damn, I was looking forward to Seth singing London's Burning by The Clash.

"When the person who succeeds is merely the one with the best publicity machine, that's commerce." Ever seen someone with the biggest publicity machine fall flat on their face in failure despite that machine? I have. If Seth is still around in a few more years, which I suspect he will be, a percentage of that will be because of publicity (although see above on videos-musicians do want to have a career), but the larger reason will be talent, which he is.

Have fun at your bluegrass concert tonight. And if they aren't being paid for the show, make sure the hat gets passed around for them, I'm sure they are just itching to make that video for Blue Moon Of Kentucky! Just kidding!!!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:53 PM

The Ballad of Reading Gaol

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Banjiman
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

Get out of jail free card?

No.....Mornington Crescent!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

What brings you to this board, matkeen? My guess is folk music attracted you? I'd also guess that there is some music you think is folk music and othe music that you don't think is?

Is Beethoven's 5th folk music? Or Abba's Waterloo folk music?

If some music isn't folk music, I would imagine you have some means of deciding?

If it is all folk music, I would imagine you agree wholeheartedly with the horses definition?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:00 PM

OT Greg
Trip to the Lakes sounds great BTW

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Sue Allan
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:05 PM

Scholarship has moved on a lot since the publication of 'Folk Song in England', and even more from 1954. I'm with Philip Bohlman on this: the dynamic nature of folk music belies the stasis of definition.
The International Folk Music Council thrashed around for a number of years arguing about definitions before coming up with the provisional 1954 one, which sprang from the essentially conservative voices prevalent at the time and was soon added to with various caveats. The council itself eventually gave up on using the term 'folk' in its own name, becoming the International Council for Traditional Music in 1981.
It's surely a mistake to look for a definition cast in stone: what is folk music is constantly negotiated and redefined not only by scholars but by those who are performing it. We know it by certain 'markers' (and no, I don't just mean modal tunes as the picture we have of their importance is skewed by the Victorian and Edwardian collectors seeking to note or publish mainly modal tunes from singers), and it's formed in a dialectic with other forms of music. I think you need to look at context as well as content, and away from the universal definitions to the particular: individual singers and localities. It's a many-faceted jewel not a slab of stone.

Sue

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

By the way....

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:21 PM

200 up!!!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:24 PM

Matt Keen
Re your remark

"OT Greg
Trip to the Lakes sounds great BTW"
What does OT stand for? Old Traditionalist? Obnoxious Turd? Outstanding Thaumaturge? Your answer may affect whether I send you a free copy of a Trip to the Lakes.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:37 PM

Adge Cutler and The Wurzels

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Folknacious
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:12 PM

"Adge Cutler"

NOW you're talking 'folk hero'

But I'm beginning to like Seth on principle. Anybody who sells that many records and is still the underdog must be OK. He came across as quite a sensible type on that Channel 4 documentary about him earlier this year, as did that Eliza on hers. How many of you lot pontificating about his songs watched that, by the way?

I wouldn't believe anything written by a committee . . .

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:21 PM

Sue,
Excellent contribution.
What is also being disregarded in this thread was the fact that the 54 description was specifically for academic use. Academics need boundaries. It seems to have been hijacked by the folk police. Watch your back, Seth!

Steve

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:30 PM

Your post Sue makes much sense except that nothing in it demonstrates that a defintion is unnecessary or impossible. It only demonstrates that you, for some reason, don't want a definition, or maybe don't want that definition. It would be very interesting if you would demonstrate the evolution of the definition and set out its flaws (as yu se them) - maybe on yet another "what is folk music" thread specifically about that definition. One of the things I like about the 1954 definition is that it allows for accretion by adoption, and is indeed about context rather than content.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:43 PM

Let's take a step back. I mentioned the 1954 definition in an attempt to explain to EC the ways I think about folk music, I was trying to explain more fully than I now wish I had done.

The fact of the matter is that it is irrelevant to my original comment that I don't recognise (hear) much of SL's work as folk.

To put it simply, if I had no knowledge of the artist and was played this and was asked to say what type of music it was, there is honestly no way I would have answered "folk music".

I'm sorry if this displeases some of you but I'm not going to say I hear it as folk just to please others.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:52 PM

btw, I'm curious how it would be possible to be "folk police" and at the same time favour a variety of folk clubs, some perhaps specialised, perhaps some very open, all running according to the way the individual organisers see fit.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:15 PM

I'm going to try to leave this thread after this comment.

As far as I can tell from this thread, the Folk Police are the ones who get upset if someone doesn't get on with SL.

I'm not suggesting anyone should not like SL, demanding they adopt any folk definitions that don't work for them, trying to dictate what any folk club, festival, etc, should book, bringing in suggestions of dislking people for reasons of popularity or youth, etc. on anything like that.

The behaviour of some of the SL fans on the other hand is IMO very close to cyber bullying.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Neil D
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

I came across this thread earlier today and having not yet listened to Seth Lakemans music I spent the next couple hours watching him on You-tube. Then I wanted to voice my impressions but decided to read all the way through the thread first, but it just kept getting bigger. Now I've finally read it all and I'm not sure where to start.
   First Mr. Lakeman's music. I liked very much of what I heard. I especially liked the way his driving fiddle created such tension in the song "Kitty Jay". I'm not as fond of his guitar songs but nothing to really dislike. BTW, was that really a 4 string guitar I saw on the video for "The White Hare"? One thing I found interesting was the collaberation he did with the Hip-Hop(gasp!) group Moorish Delta 7 for BBC's Made In England series. I thought what they created together quite good, but I have more eclectic tastes than many here.
   One thing that struck me, apart from the music, was that in interviews he comes across as a truly genuine down-to-earth, nice guy. Many people who posted comments to You-tube talked about meeting him after gigs and how he took the time to talk to them. Then there was a post here from Dave S at 5:57AM that tells of Seth playing two sets in a blowing gale without complaint. Nobody commented on that but its the kind of thing that hits home to me. All in all I don't see how anyone can wish him anything but "all the best".
   Now as to the whole "what is folk" debate that this like so many other threads has evolved into. Yesterday I was in a Borders Books music department. By coincidence I was there seeing if there was a second Imagined Village CD out yet.(There is a new one coming with a U.S. release date of July 15. I would recommend it to all without even a listen. If it is half as good as the first one it will be the best new thing I hear this year.) Anyway while I was looking I noticed that the entire Folk section of the racks could be spanned easily by my outstretched arms. One arm even. That came back to me today reading this thread. I'm sure most of the CD's in that narrow little section would not qualify as Folk Music under some of the definitions given here, nor would most of the music I came up with thinking of as Folk: Woody, Pete, Arlo etc. Irishenglish made a good point using Great Big Sea as an example. How they write some material that leans toward pop but most of their songs are Traditional. I think most artists today don't want to be limited to one pigeonhole, especially one as cramped as the 1954 Folk Pigeonhole. A performer can be Traditional AND Folk AND Pop all at the same time. If anything its is an individual song, not an artist that bears classification. BTW irishenglish, I also like GBS's trad stuff better than their originals and I liked them better without the drum kit and I miss Darrel, BUT I'm still a huge fan and look forward to seeing them next month. I would also recommend to you, and everyone else for that matter, another Newfoundland band called The Fables. They do traditional songs with driving rock rhythms and they are awesome.
    I would add that the world of music is drastically different than it was two or more centuries ago. Nowadays nearly everything gets recorded and copyrighted. So based on some of the definitons listed in this thread there will never be another folk song. Ever. Well that's my two cents in. Let the debate rage on.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:04 PM

I don't think it could be said any better, Neil. BRAVO!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:04 PM

NeilD-thanks for that recommendation, I will check them out, Cheers!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:22 PM

So based on some of the definitons listed in this thread there will never be another folk song. Ever.

Which ones?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:22 PM

Flaws - well definitions are tools of analysis. meant to be ueseful

lets take your breakdown of my song Buster the Line Dancing Dog.

according to you. I have to wait about two hundred years , when I am well dead, and the publishers records disappeared in the second nuclear war. When nobody Line dances. When dogs have been genetically modified so that don't shit or go 'woof!'

hands up who wants a GM dog...?

In fact when the song is as unintelligible, or the meaning is as obscure as say hal an Tow, Jolly Rumbelow - (hours of deadbeat deliberation has been devoted on Mudcat to that weighty matter!)

then and only then I may be accorded a page in one the Copper family's exercise books. One of Eliza'a great great grandchidren will discover a revolutionary tuning for the guitar - EADGBE that makes it sound alright.

theres nothing wrong with your definitions Richard - except that they're sod all use to man nor beast.

Eliza, I am really sorry that some blue meanies are telling your mate SL that what he does isn't folkmusic.

All one can say is, join the club mate - only you've got a late membership number to this particular club.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:52 PM

WLD said:

"theres nothing wrong with your definitions Richard - except that they're sod all use to man nor beast"

which is kind of where I'm coming from. he also said Seth's my mate, which ain't strictly true, but it was a nice thing to say. And Buster the Line Dancing Dog should be allowed to enter the canon, says I...I'll be singing it to the grandkids, WLD, don't you worry about that. Your legacy is safe with me.
;-)
x e

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Neil D
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:51 AM

Thanks, Peace.
Irishenglish, I refreshed a thread from a couple weeks ago titled "Tired of the same old music". Within that thread Gest posted a link to a CBC Newfie play list that includes some songs by The Fables. Some other good bands as well.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:59 AM

Well, to return to topic and summarise (and I did say that an update on "what is folk" could become a separate thread): -

1. All seem agreed SL is a nice bloke
2. All seem agreed he plays good fiddle
3. Many but not all think he is a good or at least interesting singer
4. Whatever measure you use, the upshot seems to be that some of what he plays is folk and some of it isn't
5. No-one is clear wat a "hero" is

Accordingly, we have not decided whether he is a "folk hero" or not.

Can everyone agree with that?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:59 AM

I'm genuinely saddened by the way this thread has developed. I started it in the hope that it would be a celebration of the increasing popularity of folk music in this country at a time when we are bemoaning the demise of folk clubs, the lack of interest amongst young people and general doom and gloom on the folk scene (which I, for one, do not subscribe to). Whilst it stimulated genuine debate (a good thing), the acrimony that it has created has destroyed some of my, probably naïve, illusions of the camaraderie and bonhomie of the folk music scene.

Whether SL's music is folk or not is immaterial. It is folk-inspired. It comes from a grounding in folk music. It stems from an obvious love of folk music. It is, if you like, a development of folk music. For all of these reasons, I think anyone who cares about the perception, the dissemination and the enjoyment of folk music amongst the widest possible audience should be celebrating. Folk club organisers should be celebrating; record producers (from the big guns to those who produce their own CDs) should be celebrating; all professional folk artists should be celebrating; anyone who has ever felt the need to apologise for their liking of folk music should be celebrating. Instead of which, this debate has done much to reinforce the stereotypes that have held folk music back from being in the musical mainstream and shown a serious and, I'm saddened to say, probably irrevocable split amongst folk music aficionados. Thanks to everyone here (especially ec) who has sought to repair that rift but, after over 40 years of listening to and performing folk music, I really do fear that it is becoming wider and that people are feeling they are being forced to take sides or fall into a gaping chasm.

When I first came into the folk scene in the mid 60s (oh, god, here he goes again!) it was even more of a minority genre and people were delighted to welcome a youngster in and offer help and encouragement, at least in Yorkshire (I am especially grateful to the Watersons and Robin and Barry Dransfield. Then the avant garde were Davy Graham, Bert Jansch, John Renbourn etc. and the first time I came across them was my 'road to Emmaus' moment when I knew, once and for all, that folk music in its broader sense was what I wanted to be part of. I wonder if Seth's music will be that for young people of the periphery of the folk scene but scared off by prevailing traditionalist attitudes. That's the reaction I hoped I would get on this thread.

Seth's music is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater; it's keeping the bathwater topped up and warm as the baby grows up and has offspring of its own.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:01 AM

PS - Al, there you go again, misrepresenting what people say, what I said about definitions and what EC said abut mates, for starters...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:28 AM

Richard, in fairness - you said quite a lot about definitions. Which bit have I misrepresented? My apologies in advance.

Also to Eric Clapton. Not sure where he comes into the story. But I have clothed myself in the ashes of repentance and put by a Birdseye Microwave Gall and Wormwood Curry Special for dinner to atone for my misdeeds.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 04:33 AM

Excellent post above, the Leveller. Hope everyone reads it and reflects on it. Me included.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: KeithofChester
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 05:33 AM

BTW, was that really a 4 string guitar I saw on the video for "The White Hare"?

Seth plays both the fiddle and the small 4-stringed Tenor Guitar you noticed. His brother Sean (also in his band) plays the "normal" guitar (and other instruments besides).

You can get confused as to who plays what by some of the the videos. On at least one "live" TV performance (I think GMTV from about a year back) the TV company decided it would be easier for their technicians if the band mimed. This went down about as well as Ed Sullivan asking the Doors and Rolling Stones many moons back to change certain lyrics; so Seth and his band all swapped intruments as a protest.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,blue
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 05:38 AM

Thank's to the Leveller, that's what we need a celebration not a dissection.
Good for Seth and all the young or otherwise artists that get to make cd's, the more people that hear them, the more that care about folk music and if it brings in a few more converts then surely that is great.
How many songs have you heard and thought you'd love to hear more like that.
I do think that some folkie's love having their music marginalised and kept seperate from, in their eyes, those lesser types.

Lets just celebrate music, it gives life to us all.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:17 AM

"theres nothing wrong with your definitions Richard - except that they're sod all use to man nor beast"

Can't agree with you there WLD - the 1954 definition and the slaves to it give us all a bloody great laugh and that's the best medicine we get in this life...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:18 AM

Guest,Jon said What brings you to this board, matkeen? My guess is folk music attracted you? I'd also guess that there is some music you think is folk music and othe music that you don't think is?


Yes its folk music that attracts me

I try my absolute best to clear my mind of any sort of definition. It doesn't help me.

I am really only interested in music that I love. That moves me deeply. Most of the time that music is traditional music from Britain - I know it when I hear it. I don't need a word based definition, as I find it a hindrance to getting closer to the music or to helping me play it.

Essential elements for ME and ME only are probably
narrative base
compositions born of first hand experience
modal based tunes (though not exclusively if the feel is there)
honest committment by the player to express themselves in the music and only themselves

Anyway thats a start

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:23 AM

Matt, if you clear your mind of all defintions, how do you know that the music that attracts you is folk music? You seem to be stuck in a very strange conundrum.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:35 AM

I trust my instincts about it

I recognise that Eliza comes from the same musical root as Jingy Wells for instance. Or that my mate Jeff Westley sings brilliantly in a sligthtly music hall version of a traditional singer. I don't consult a definition about it, I recognise it. I have absorbed the music and I KNOW it.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:36 AM

"theres nothing wrong with your definitions Richard - except that they're sod all use to man nor beast"

In a nutshell thats how I feel

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:49 AM

I started celebrating Seth from the moment I first heard him play. I wrote about him, many times over....and was villified for it. I continued to write about him, saying he would be the one to bring thousands of young people into folk music, just as Show of Hands have done.

Now it seems, others have finally opened their eyes too. I cannot tell you how glad I am to read this. And it's extra wonderful to know that Ian Anderson, a one-time Seth Basher, has now become a huge fan. Well done Ian, I knew you'd get there, eventually. ;0)


Oh..and Richard, of course Seth is a Folk Hero. Why? Because he has over-ridden every foul word that has been said about him, by those who have tried so hard to do him down. He put his last money into The Mercury Awards, he has never let go of his well-mannered, gentle, friendly attitude to people. He has simply got on with things, playing the music he loves, in the way that he loves, in the places he loves. He's still a Dartmoor lad, preferring the peace of his moors to the buzz of the city highlife. He still turns up in his same t shirt and jeans, 'same ol' Seth'..

He was raised in a folk family. The first time I ever saw Seth, and his brothers, I didn't even know who they were. They were children then, at Buckland Monachorum Fair, one summer. It was the village next to mine, Horrabridge, where I then lived. I heard these voices, wonderful voices! There was a huge crowd in the street, listening to a family, singing, just standing there, in amongst the ancient houses in that pretty Dartmoor village..singing, for the pure joy of it.

They were The Lakeman family.

Here is Seth's dad, whom I'm sure some will know on this board.

Geoff Lakeman and his band:

Speakeasy myspace

In the Lakeman's you have Geoff, Seth, Sean, Sam, (and their Mum, of course) Kathryn Roberts,(married to Sean) Cara Dillon, (married to Sam)...and Kathryn and Cara now each have twins, so there are already four little Lakeman's to celebrate for the future, whilst you also celebrate their Uncle.

They are a folk family, an important folk family, and an ever-increading one.

So all of those who try to paint Seth as some pop star should be ashamed of themselves. Equally those who now try to say that he has only got where he has, because of his looks..and yes, he's had that thrown at him too, by bitter people. Well, many years later, I *heard* Seth before I ever saw him, just as I did with Show of Hands, and I knew that what I heard was special. It took me a while to realise that he was from the family I'd seen so many years before.

I said back then that he was like a firework, the way he played, his energy, etc. Well, that firework was a rocket, which has now exploded into the night sky, showering those colourful sparks over thousands of people, all of whom stand there looking up, with smiles on their faces, as songs about their past now rain down upon them.

Folk Hero?

For revolutionising folk music? You bet!

For bringing in THOUSANDS of young people? You BET!

For bringing in excitement, young blood, driving beats that pound through you and make you feel alive? YES!

Seth has a great band behind him of course, of Sean Lakeman, Andy Tween and Ben Nicholls. And it's great to hear their guests on this brilliant CD, Steve Knightley, Cormac Byrne and Kathryn Roberts amongst them.

And how the folk world undervalues Kathyrn Roberts. She has such a beautiful voice!

You know, the bad and negative attitude that has followed the Lakemans around, and those associated with them, simply because they dared, when they were Equation, to sign with Warner Bros..and so became pariahs to the desperately narrow-minded and unpleasant people who never let them forget that, should now stop.

Hell, in actual fact, Seth has stopped it himself, hasn't he! :0)

So Folk Hero? You betcha, Richard!

Because many people would have faded into obscurity after some of the things The Lakeman's have had to endure in the 'folk' world..but Seth never gave up....and he was supported hugely by Show of Hands, for a long time, so thanks to them as well.

Well done Seth! Sock it 'em!!

And I would tell you about the time he played Sidmouth, and what happened, but, there's little point, as this message will, I've no doubt, shortly disappear.....


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 06:53 AM

Mattkeen - "I know it when I hear it." That's the best description ever, and if people were happy that their perception of what 'it' is might be different than someone else's, the world would be a better place. I don't think you need the subsequent descriptions.

Greg - he isn't in a connundrum, because as he's said he knows it when he hears it. Native Americans, before English/French etc. got there, had no word to describe 'Freedom'. I don't believe that means they didn't know what it was like to feel free. They just didn't know anything else.

Go Seth!!. I think it's great, nice one leveller for starting this thread. I just listened to 'Setting of the sun' this morning. Trad song, adapted and arranged. Not sure GuestJon how that doesn't bear "a resemblance to anything I'd recognise as folk music", but who cares.

I first got into 'this stuff' via Fairport, who had similar criticism I believe in their early years. I did indeed go onto discover Dubliners, Paddy Tunney, Paddy Reilly, Jos Taylor, AL Lloyd, Planxty, Martin Carthy etc. as well as Chris Wood, Eliza C, Seth L, Bert Jansch, John Martyn etc. etc. Do I feel a similar way about all these artists - yes. Does it really matter whether I think they are 'it' and you don't - No. Would I have got into them without my Fairport intro? Who knows, maybe not? I now organise singarounds and concerts and maybe wouldn't have done had I not been introduced to the genre by a 'borderline' act in terms of definition.

Just off to listen to 'The Ballad of Josie'.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:07 AM

I come from a tradition (Quakers) where we have spent 400 vehemently resisting putting our beliefs into a definition - we don't have a creed

Thats probably what is at the bottom of my reasons for not wanting a definition of folk.

Its simply not necessary for me

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:11 AM

Matt: you say your instincts tell you if it's folk music. That is precisely what a definition is, a rationalisation of your instincts. Your instinct is a template: if the music fits that template, you call it folk music. If the music fits your jazz template, you call it jazz. That is what a definition is for, and that is what a defintion is. That is how we know, instantly, whether what we are looking at in the zoo is a lion or a zebra. Our brain has prepared a set of definitions of various animals.
You are using definitions youself to determine whether what you hear is what you think of as folk music, so why you get so angry when other people do the same is beyond me.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:33 AM

Greg

My insticnts tell me if it moves me - that is very different from a definition of what it is that is moving me. No I don't believe it is necessarily a rationalisation

It seems what moves me is what others here call folk music, but not always folk music, and some of it has similarities but can be broader.

I can give you some examples:
English Acoustic Collective: Hare's Maggot
Eliza and her dad: Two Sisters
Sam Larner : Lofty Tall Ships
May Bradley: Under The Leaves of Life
Lau: Butcher Boy
Little Feat: Rock and Roll Doctor
Brackley Morris: Month of May

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:34 AM

To Greg Stephens, i thought we were getting somewhere but no you have to start being silly again.
This is not about what is and isn't folk.
Haven't we done that a thousand times, it's about celebrating an artists success despite the media shadow cast over many types of music not just folk music.

I can't remember over seeing another album advertised on TV that was called FOLK that's what this thread should be about, this is a major event though you are to busy worrying about definitions to care.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:35 AM

Greg, what happens when there's a fusion of two styles, as in the music of Landermason? Their description is "folk provides the theme, but jazz determines the style". It doesn't fit into any template that I have - but I love it.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:47 AM

I would really like to learn from experts here about what signature MUSICAL and LYRICAL elements there are in our traditional music.
That might help describe it to me as a musician - not define it but describe it.

(you know modality, imbellishment, narrative themes etc) - by the way I think that the Scots and Irish are much more able to describe their tradition in those type of terms than we are. I am not sure why, perhaps they just are more intimately acquainted with the detail of it ?


So I think I'll have a look at that other thread about what is trad music or some such title.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:48 AM

Special thanks to Richard Bridge for providing us with the one true definition of folk music and the thoughts of Chairman Cec; it helps put into context all the bloody nonsense I've puzzled over during the 40 years I've been attending folk clubs. The wonder is that folk clubs have survived, and some young folk are attracted to it, despite the crap that some old, tired and disillusioned malcontents peddle in the name of tradition.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

Fusion is a defined term. It means something. Much like the terms Quaker and Roman Catholics, apropos Matt Keens description of the tradition he comes from. All of these things have definitions,often very broad.He says there is a difference between Quaker and other traditions, of course there is. Same with music. What's wrong with that? Vive la difference.
The point is, the most rigid definition people on this thread are the ones who pretend to disapprove of definitions. If for example, you suggest that people should rejoice that Seth Lakeman is in the charts because he is a folk musician, but you don't suggest that ASmy Winehouse is in the charts: well, it shows that you don't think that Amy W is a folk musician, and that therefore she is not worthy of celebrating. Which means you are an exclusive gate-keeper person, who is deliberately keeping Amy out of our scene. So why not stop flinging insults around at other people you are claiming are doing this wicked thing?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 07:58 AM

Sorry, Greg, I don't follow your argument about Amy Winehouse, I've never listened to her music so I don't have a opinion on it. I wasn't aware that I was flinging insults at anyone, just expressing an opinion. Does that offend you? Why?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:00 AM

Strangely enuff matt, I came from quaker family also. For a few months I attended a quaker school - although I wasn't one of their success stories.

But I think you're right about the definitions business. I think its the result of the fact that you spent such a long time being encouraged to examine your own conscience, motives and beliefs.

Then you hear some bugger has adopted a set of platitudes and tripe undisturbed since 1954 and is living happily with it - and you think, why shouldn't they be at least as miserable as I am.

I think I'll go back to listening to my Brotherhood Man ten inch party remixes and ponder some of the great questions of the folk revival. Did Sam Larner use the same eyeliner as 'H' out of Steps?

If Sam, walter pardon, Ewan MacColl, Harry Boardman, Stumbling jack Elliot, Bert Lloyd had all been in the Big Brother House......

Who goes ...You decide!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:00 AM

Greg - I am reminded of a line from one of my favourite films (Anchorman) - "That makes no sense".

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:21 AM

Greg said:
The point is, the most rigid definition people on this thread are the ones who pretend to disapprove of definitions. If for example, you suggest that people should rejoice that Seth Lakeman is in the charts because he is a folk musician, but you don't suggest that ASmy Winehouse is in the charts: well, it shows that you don't think that Amy W is a folk musician, and that therefore she is not worthy of celebrating. Which means you are an exclusive gate-keeper person, who is deliberately keeping Amy out of our scene. So why not stop flinging insults around at other people you are claiming are doing this wicked thing?


Greg is that directed at me?

In any case it seems very convoluted and more to the point, I don't understand it

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM

Melodeon Boy - yes I saw it aswell. It did disppear rather sharpish.

Matt - I don't understand it either.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:28 AM

Mind you I do think that Joe Strummer wrote and performed great folk songs

Ad did Jerry Dammers and the Specials

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:42 AM

I fear Amy Winehouse is rather like Nina Simone, wonderful in the studio, extremely varied live.
Yes i have her albums, yes i have albums by people and music 'types' that i like and you are unlikely to but would use a catagory for them if someone asked me what they sound like, i'm entitled to describe surely.
Having over 2000 album makes my selection pretty varied.
Shouldn't i be here 'cause i vary my taste

Is that against folk police edict.

I have a friend who sounds like Lou Reed but sings completely different material, stuff that i would call folk if asked.

You seem to damn people if they mention FOLK and damn them if they won't.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:49 AM

The point I make is simply this: people have asked us to celebrate Seth Lakeman's chart success, but not Amy Winehouse,and a distinction is being made.And that distinction is very simple: that Serth is a folk musician, and Amy is not(according to the definitions used by the celebratists). And that distinction is the very exclusivity and gatekeeping that the folk police/1954 people get acused of in the most vituperative language. The pot, as always, calls the kettle black.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:52 AM

Yup, still the candidate for the funniest ever Mudcat thread. Watch out Drumcree.

G

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:08 AM

I'm going to do some work instead of arguing which Pokemon is the best.
All i ask is that you put your toys away nicely when you've finished.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:34 AM

As a result of threads here I've been looking at both Seth Lakeman and Oliver Schroer on YouTube.

Technically, they have a lot in common, both have a predilection for thick drony sounds. Visually, their playing is also rather similar, though Schroer managed to do without the faked length of hair dangling off the tip of the bow for showbiz effect (all neatly snapped at full length, I assume he snips it at the frog with nail scissors). In dress sense Lakeman is a long way ahead (no orange satin shirts).

As an accompaniment texture, Lakeman's fiddle works fine. He doesn't really try to do self-contained solos. The style is traditional enough, but it's mostly used as decoration applied to pop songs, in the same way that the Beatles applied brass band or string quartet sounds to their music. Pop has been using decorative exotica for fifty years, there is nothing new in this.

In some ways Schroer's fiddling is less traditional. He wasn't just doing something decorative, he was composing a new kind of music which is at least as different from North American folk fiddle as Scott Skinner's stadium showpieces were from the dance music he grew up with. It doesn't always have an immediate impact as Lakeman's does, it grows on you. I'm not sure how much of it people would think of as folk, or if Schroer himself wanted it to be seen that way. Some of it might fit into the instrumental session scene (as the Penguin Cafe Orchestra's "Music for a Found Harmonium" has done); other pieces are just too big (session players don't memorize large-scale works) but could fit in to the concert stage to add variety to a programme.

Whatever you categorize each of them as, Schroer's music gives me more to think about, enough so that I'm going to try to learn some of it (and I don't even play the fiddle).

Another difference is that Schroer made a real effort at building his music into the community, getting young people to play it, which is what established performers in the traditional music scene often do. I don't think Lakeman holds workshops on performing his songs, does he?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Zen
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:43 AM

I grew up playing traditional music and still do on a regular basis. I also enjoy playing the blues and am enjoying getting deeper into that genre. I have moreover been known to write and sing songs in an acoustic setting. I have even played some jazz and rock and have enjoyed that also.

Worse still (shudder!) I have sometimes been known to mix these styles together in varying proportions.

I read the 1954 definition as I felt I ought to for my betterment and I must say it didn't do a great deal for me except to confuse me. It certainly doesn't enlighten me as to whether I play "folk" or not. To me it seems anachronistic and written from a particular perspective. As someone quite rightly said on an ancient "What is Folk?" thread here, an elephant can be described in many different ways according the the framework of concepts or experiences with which you approach it. Even different blind men will describe it differently depending on which end of it they're at.

Back to the original subject of the thread... I hadn't really listened to any Seth Lakeman before (don't know why really as I'm quite eclectic in taste). For my part, I like his stuff and don't at all begrudge him the success he seems to have had.

Zen

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:55 AM

"Another difference is that Schroer made a real effort at building his music into the community"

The Lakeman's ARE a community; they must make up half the population of Dartmoor :)

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:58 AM

Ooops! Inappropriate apostrophe.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 11:07 AM

"I don't think Lakeman holds workshops on performing his songs, does he?"

I don't think he's that egotistical!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:14 PM

I find the Louis Armstrong definition to be too elitist. Maybe he never heard a horse sing a song but they can count time with there hooves. I've even seen Roy Rogers' horse, Trigger, dance in an old movie. As a matter of fact I'm attempting to organizing a group of dancing horses into a Horris Side, complete with a Hobby Human in a man suit.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:34 PM

"I don't think Lakeman holds workshops on performing his songs, does he?"

Maybe not - but his songbook "Freedom Fields" offers more to open-minded folk musicians than anything included in that blackhole which would have us all sucked back to the year 1954.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:41 PM

Welllll..according to Lowden Jameswright we are closed minded musicians, the guardians of that infamous blackhole which would have us all sucked back to the year 1954, if we don't agree that Seth Lakeman is a 'folk' musician. Personally, as I believe I've already stated elsewhere, Lakeman doesn't do a thing for me one way or the other and has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to be sucked back to 1954(which I don't) or any other year.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 08:56 PM

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,pat Cooksey
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 09:06 PM

Sounds rather good, Hero I dont think, but bloody fine singing all the same. Well done Mr Lakeman, keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:40 PM

he's a gorgeous looking guy - sort of young looking Simon Cowell looks.

I think the folk Revival should pay his transfer fee, for that 'strength in depth' that Bob Latchford gave the Birmingham City team of 1971.

I can see why the guys who say Annie's Song isn't folk don't like him. But I can imagine a lot of young guys trying to be like him, and who knows it may draw in someone really good.

At the moment the songwriting doesn't really set your mind on fire, but he's quite promising. I hope it works out for him.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 02:36 AM

Shades of "Willie of Winsbury":

"If I were a woman as I am a man
My bedfellow you would be".

Are you sure you didn't go to public school Al?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 03:18 AM

yeh I did. for 15 months through my church, when I was fifteen. that's where I learned to fingerpick guitar, and its where I learned I was from the gutter - unlike my fellow pupils.

I still think Seth (all us fans call him that) is a bit of alright.

D'you remember that Lily Savage line, after the Indecent proposal film.
"Robert Redford offers this woman a million dollars for a shag...... he could have 'ad me for the taxi fare."

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:32 AM

Perhaps you should not project that on to us.

You can decide to which line of yous I refer...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 01:04 PM

wld, you're beginning to sound like Flora Post.


G

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:27 PM

WLD: watch out when the scent of the sukebind is heavy in the summer air.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

Stay away from the woodshed too.

G

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 06:43 PM

Jack Campin writes: I don't think Lakeman holds workshops on performing his songs, does he?

Seth Lakeman has sold over 100,000 CDs to people who mostly don't give a toss about "folk music".

His songs are currently heard by several million listeners tuning in to Radio 2.

As a result, posses of teenage lassies are turning up at Folk Festivals for the first time to see him - and by default other folky acts - play (since the bulk of his work is still on the "folk scene")

Quite how his time would be better spent - right now - in the interests of folk music - teaching half a dozen folk fiddle in community hall is mystifying. He has the whole of his life to teach and this one tiny window to make a big public impact that might make more folk interested in actually being taught ...

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:51 AM

I could snog his face off!!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: melodeonboy
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:27 AM

'Seth Lakeman has sold over 100,000 CDs to people who mostly don't give a toss about "folk music".'

"His songs are currently heard by several million listeners tuning in to Radio 2."

Multiply the figures by ten (or more) and you could be talking about Kylie! Cor, what a recommendation!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:53 AM

What's wrong with Kylie FFS?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

doesn't fit the 1954...........

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: glueman
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:01 AM

She has that honour too.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: matt milton
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:29 AM

If you're serious about music (as opposed to simply beng serious about taxonomy and categorisation) and you genuinely enjoy music, the question surely is NOT "Does Seth Lakeman make folk music?"

It is instead "Does seth Lakeman make good music?"

For me, the answer's no. For me, his music sounds utterly deathly. For a number of reasons. Some of them are: airless studio production (all the space filled in, over-use of compression); unimaginative guitar strumming; middle-of-the-road tunes; unimaginative violin scrubbing; and vocals that strain too hard to emote, sounding peculiarly constipated instead (à la Sting or the singer from Green Day).

Watching him live on stage, he's in the zone: he's a sincere musician giving it his all. But for me it's a case of a passionate musician who makes music that lacks any passion. There's no attitude there; it's all bland.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

Have you listened to his album "Freedom Fields"? - if so I suggest your get an ear implant

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 07:59 AM

Interesting point about the production values, Matt. I must agree that I prefer the stuff recorded in 'the piano kitchen', but then I tend to like it when musicians produce their own recordings, even when they're a bit rough round the edges. Probably why I prefer hand-made furniture to Ikea, beer from micro breweries to mass-produced stuff and home-cooked food to packaged ready meals.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 10:47 AM

..thats why i prefere listening to bootlegs
of home demos and informal rehearsals
for most artists i like

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 02:12 PM

yes and readers wives to the playboy channel......

and jake the peg with wooden leg to the royal ballet....

and give me a Lada over a mercedes any day....

macrobiotic, that's us....

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 05:49 AM

who needs a steak, when you've got Brain's faggot!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:19 AM

Ahhhh - Faggots Frozen Brains! Not had them for years!

Slim Shady for next president of EFDSS. Kylie ditto for the Morris Ring. That'd shake the buggers up!

:D

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: glueman
Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:50 AM

Very much agree with the production values point, the average studio is guaranteed to suck the life out of decent music. It's the difference between film making (multiple takes, people fussing with hair and spots, runners talking into ear-mics everywhere) and live theatre.
Takes a helluva producer to reproduce the atmosphere of a micropone stuck in the middle of a bunch of people having a good time.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 08:17 AM

Just a message to all his admirers on Mudcat Old MegaSeth is on the cover of Acoustic magazine this week (ubiquitous moi?), which has just dropped through the letterbox.

I will away to read the article and find out the quetion that vexes us all - whither folksong........

Will it some old scrotes caterwauling Child ballads and sticking their digits in their earholes,....... or will it be Seth and his funky hip hop mates.

either way, I don't reckon there'll be much in it for the rest of us, but I will report back!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:05 AM

Oooh, hope my copy will be waiting on the doormat (if the dog hasn't eaten it).

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:08 AM

Seth thinks that cream rises to the top. You lot deserve the ignominy and failure that is your lot. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

But if you take the example of politics, isn't it the scum that rises to the top?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,Shameless Promotions Inc
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

The Old Scrotes Band
appearing at:
The Duck and Prime Minister
Much Blathering, Glos.
9pm
Friday 18th July

session from the floor opens the proceedings

'caterwauling Child ballads and sticking our digits in our earholes'

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 02:47 PM

"Seth thinks that cream rises to the top. You lot deserve the ignominy and failure that is your lot. You should be ashamed of yourselves."

1. And naturally this is true of all types of music is it?

2. Should we get nasty and personal?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 03:19 PM

1) oh yes!
2) just be your natural self Richard.

I think you're maybe taking it all a bit more seriously than it warrants, however! Acoustic magazine's idea of an in depth interview is asking Kate Melua what makes her feel warm and fluffy inside - (she didn't answer a skilfully wielded feather duster), I forget what the right answer was.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:21 PM

Fuck me sideways - this is heading for 300 posts. No wonder the Yanks shake their heads and snigger at the parochial Big-Endian obsessions of the Brits. Do any of you still hanging in here and trying to piss higher up the wall actually realise how pathetic an advert this thread is for the British f**k music scene? It manages to reinforce every prejudice and stereotype going.
Anyway, chaps, carry on digging!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM

Hmm, so Gervase knows best? Just a spot of solipsism maybe?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:32 PM

Terrible.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: In My Humble Opinion
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:35 PM

Well as a newish memeber, actually I just joined, my observations tell me, there more than a few self appointed experts in everything.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Jul 08 - 05:40 PM

Q.E. frigging D! Eye thangewe Mr Bridge. Honestly, you couldn't make it up!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 02:23 AM

I don't think anyone would really argue about how good a singer/songwriter/musician Seth Lakeman really is [ overemotional for my taste ] it's just the morons like Lizzie Cornish etc. and try to make out he's gods gift to folk music and the world when he clearly isn't, this doesn't do the lad any favours, just the opposite.

eric

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: folktheatre
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 07:00 AM

It's pop music isn't it? Most record buyers who got that album in the chart wouldn't care if it was folk or not. Make folk sound like pop music they might buy and it gets in the charts. not my cup of tea. Can you tell?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 11:10 AM

Then there are those just love to indulge in name calling, eh, eric the red. What do you think we should call people like that?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 11:15 AM

Do you people in England ever root for your home teams? I know it happens in soccer--so why not in music? Snarl, bite, rip, tear. It's fookin sad. Seth worked his way up. Built a music career that sustains him. Not too many here have done that.



GOOD FOR HIM!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 11:18 AM

Though Seth Lakeman isn't exactly to my taste, I do admire the fact that he has gotten on on the world and made something of a success of himself, sold a few CD's etc..etc..which is more than can be said for alot of people, the green eyed god will always rear its ugly head, that's another aspect of this world.

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Zen
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 11:21 AM

Following Peace's theme... I bought a copy of Seth Lakeman's "Freedom Fields" (going cheap at my local record shop) on the basis of all the hoo-ha here since, as I mentioned below, I wasn't very au fait with his work.

I find it a most creditable effort indeed.

Zen

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 11:30 AM

Accidentally saw him at Broadstairs Folk Week a couple of years ago.....thought he was great live, bought Freedom Fields on the basis of this and like that too.

I agree that he is not "FOLK" enough for some folk but some folk do have very narrow horizons. More power to the lad for making it.

This debate reminds me of when I was a teenager and deeply into Heavy Metal (as well as Morris). We described anyone who dared to have a recognisable melody in their music as "posers" or that they had "sold out to the Americans" (sorry to half of the 'Catters out there).

We grew out of it though..........

Paul

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:10 PM

Can't have Seth dropping out of the Mudcat charts before he reaches 300 now can we?

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:13 PM

Seth said 299

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:13 PM

Then he shouted 300

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM

Then Seth launched into hs 301st rendition of The White Hare

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 03:15 PM

Back at the top of the folk charts where he belongs - what a hero!

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:39 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: Seth Lakeman - Folk Hero!
From: GUEST,In My Humble Opinion
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:44 PM

Seth was slipping there, back to the top of the charts with him.....