BBC Proms and RVW

Subject: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:19 AM

Fantasia On A Theme 1/3 Bushes and Briars
BBC RADIO 3 Thursday 24 July 8.20-8.40pm
Available on BBC i-player for seven days                          

In the first of a three-part series broadcast in the intervals of Prom concerts in which Ralph Vaughan Williams's pieces are performed, Roy Palmer tells the stories of the folk songs within Williams's work, how he came by them and how he used them.

The series begins before the performance of Williams's Fourth Symphony, with the story of Bushes And Briars. In 1903, Williams heard a farm labourer called Charles Potiphar singing Bushes And Briars commenting how he felt "he had known it all his life". He arranged this gorgeous, slightly melancholy love lyric for orchestra, voice and piano in Fifteen Folk Songs From The Eastern Counties (1908). He made a cylinder recording of a Mrs Humphrys singing, enabling listeners to hear the music and performances that inspired him. He went on to collect 810 folk songs or tunes, incorporating many in his compositions.

Roy meets Andrew King, who is studying these recordings at The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, and the Library Director, Malcolm Taylor, who discovered his wax cylinders and demonstrates the phonograph Williams used.

Roy also introduces new recordings of the old songs while BBC Radio 2 folk award winner Nancy Kerr explores why a modern young female singer is drawn to this song. Roy also hears from Barry Coope of the trio Coope Boyes And Simpson about why it is so important to them.

Presenter/Roy Palmer, Producer/Julian May

Fantasia On A Theme 2/3 Dives and Lazarus
BBC RADIO 3 Friday 8 August 7.45-8.05pm         

Roy Palmer explores the stories of the folk songs within Ralph Vaughan Williams's work, how he came by them and how he used them, in the second of a three-part series broadcast in the intervals of Prom concerts in which Vaughan Williams's pieces are performed.

Prior to Leonard Slatkin conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra's performance of Five Variants On Dives And Lazarus in this evening's Prom, Palmer explores the history of this powerful old-style carol of rich man going to hell after refusing charity to the poor man.

Popular in Elizabethan times, Vaughan Williams collected it from John Evans in Herefordshire in 1907. His Variants On Dives And Lazarus was first performed in 1939 and was played at his funeral in 1958. Palmer uncovers a recording of the song made for the BBC in 1952, and hears a recent version by Martin Simpson, the guitar virtuoso who performed at the Proms Folk Day earlier in the season, who also talks about his approach to the song.

Presenter/Roy Palmer, Producer/Julian May

Fantasia On A Theme 3/3
BBC RADIO 3 Prom 43 Sunday 17 August

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:34 AM

Thanks so much for that, Henryp - off to the iPlayer forthwith. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:43 AM

Thanks, but the BBC iPlayer link is silent???

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:27 AM

Oh no! Not again... we just had a thread about iPlayer problems*

The interval talk itself seems to be called "Twenty Minutes". You can find it in the main Radio 3 schedule on this link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/schedule/index.shtml
and click on Thursday the 24th at 20:20, then "Listen"

Or else just try
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00cm178
and click on the "Listen" button

Or go here   
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio/bbc_radio_three/music/classical
and scroll down to the bottom of the page, to "Twenty Minutes" and click the Show More Episodes tab.

I know it sounds dumb, but you did remember to hit the "Click to play" button... ? Because I missed that the first time around, owing to the fact that it says "Loading 0%" and then just sits there. But this magically changes to that most welcome of words, "Playing", as soon as the button is activated. You'll need to push the progress bar ahead a little to get the RVW programme.

Do please let is know if none of the above works. But it does for me, and I don't live in the UK. Good luck -

- - - - -
*
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=112822

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:33 AM

It wouldn't work for me until I set it 'Dial-up Modem Version:ON', even though I am using a broadband connection.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:39 AM

Not to be pedantic or anything...oh sod it, why not?

"Potiphar" should be "Pottipher".

"Mrs Humphrys" should be "Mrs Humphreys".

"Variants on Dives and Lazarus" should be "Five Variants on Dives and Lazarus".

"and demonstrates the phonograph Williams used." Williams?! So does the BBC music department's press office think that Vaughan was oneof his first names?

I know these are petty points, but I couldn't help being reminded of the rejection letter Tony Palmer, director of O Thou Transcendant, received from the BBC music department when he first pitched the idea for the film to them (it was eventually made by Channel 5). They told him they were not interested in making his film, "But good luck with the project, and do let me know if Mr. V. Williams has an important premiere in the future as this findability might allow us to reconsider."


...anyway, given the contributors, the programmes ought to be great.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:08 AM

I just got to hear this Twenty Minutes by setting the new rubbishy iPlayer to 'Dial-up Modem Version:ON'. First time I've got a peep out of it since the MacUser-unfriendly changeover.

It was indeed illuminating to hear Nancy Kerr talking about the relevance of Bushes & Briars to her personally (actually she sounded quite Australian in this interview) and to be reminded of the duo with Eliza Carthy when they were 17. Startling too to hear Malcolm Taylor reveal how the first wax cylinder he lifted out of the box at C# House came apart in his hands.

I am reminded of a R3 programme some years ago also entitled, I think, Bushes & Briars, about the work of Vivienne Ellis and Giles Lewin who actually come from Essex. Their interpretations of the songs collected there are amazingly beautiful and it was something of an omission not to have included them.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

Actually, Ruth, it is Potiphar not Pottipher.....

Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:33 PM

well, if I'm going to have a go on pedantry...I used other (equally inaccurate) sources, sadly.

Still, I knew the BBC version wasn't right.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:20 PM

He appears in census returns as Charles Potipher, though Vaughan Williams consistently spelled it 'Pottipher'. 'Potiphar' is a common enough alternative spelling of the name and I've seen it applied to Charles by a number of writers, though I don't know whether they have specific grounds for doing so. Locating singers in census returns is often made difficult by such inconsistencies of spelling.

I had the same problem with the iPlayer (it's not a platform issue, just generally poor design and implementation) and eventually enabled the 'dial-up modem' option, though I don't use a dial-up modem. It worked.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:49 PM

Looks like a mudcat domestic to me.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:35 PM

Since Mr Potiphar / Pottipher was a child before the era of free primary education and couldn't read or write, he was never able to provide an authorised spelling of his surname - church registers, census and visiting composers all give different versions. So I suppose every one is equally right - or equally wrong.

From his responses to Vaughan Williams, he seems to have been a very perceptive man, with a fine ear for a song.

Georgina

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Surreysinger
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:42 PM

Is there anything to suggest that he would have had any say in what spelling was used by the census enumerator or others ? Many census returns have incorrectly spelled surnames, and I as always given to understand that was because that was down to the mishearing or mis-spelling by the enumerator , or just their lack of extensive education.

Do we actually know that Mr Potipher/Potiphar (whatever...) was unable to read or write at all ? After all, the likes of Henry Burstow were certainly very well educated and perfectly well able to do both ... despite the habit of the collectors of the time referring to their source singers as being illiterate. (I believe that Lucy Broadwood referred to Burstow as being such, when he was quite clearly not.)

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:44 PM

my general point (and the spelling of Potiphar/Pottipher was just one illustration thereof) was that the BBC music dept had previously proved themselves rather woefully lacking in awareness of RVW and his work, and that the current press release did not particularly inspire one with confidence.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Joy Bringer
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:50 PM

Sorry I totally disagree. The BBC(radio)has ran several excellent reports recently regarding RVW. One needs to be a little more informed before they criticise.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

Why, yes.
Doncha know the beeb has broadcast dozens of Mr Williams' premières in the past week.
Robbie, that is.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:25 AM

I said that Mr Potiphar / Pottipher was unable to read or write because when he married Mary Ann Wood on 26th September 1852 at St Nicholas' Church, Ingrave he signed the register with a cross - as did his wife.

Tony Kendall, the Essex researcher, has published a great deal of detailed work on Vaughan Williams' earlest collecting, including wealth of information on the Potiphar / Pottiphers and others. It's very well worth tracking this down.

Georgina

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 08:03 AM

My apologies to Ruth for appearing to criticise her over the spelling of Pottipher/Potiphar. That was certainly not my intention.
It's an ambiguous area, as several people have indicated.
When Malcolm Taylor and I produced the Century of Song CD for the EFDSS in 1998, we used the spelling "Pottipher", as used by RVW. In fact, Georgina in her review of the CD pulled us up on the spelling and pointed out it was Potiphar.
Census returns, parish records may well give more than one alternative spelling.
In Sue Cubbin's That precious Legacy: RVW and Essex Folksong, Charles' baptism register is reproduced. The handwriting is undoubtedly that of the vicar, and the spelling is Potiphar. But what authority would the vicar have used? Presumably Charles's parents could not read or write.
The census may well read Potipher (that's a third alternative spelling now) but again, what authority would the enumerator have used?

It's an ambiguous area. Are there any Pottiphers/Potiphars/Potiphers in Ingrave today?

Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 09:23 AM

Right ...first things first... the world of geneaology is a great thing. There are lots of people around who register an interest in one name family studies. I have had a search, and have found a gent who is researching the Potiphar/Potipher/Putifer etc etc family. And it appears there are still members of the family around. It would appear to be the same family, and descended from an Aaron Potiphar who moved from London to Barking in Essex to raise his family brood. It's interesting that the chap who is doing the one name family study makes no mention of the member of the Potiphar clan who sang folksongs to RVW, although Ingrave is mentioned as one of the places that members of the family moved to! I've sent him a link to this place, with the suggestion that he might like to join the fray, or alternatively have also suggested he might like to ring me with any further information he may have re descendants etc. It will be interesting to see if there is any further light he can shed on Charles etc.

As to the "making of marks" - it's never safe to assume that this means the individual concerned was illiterate. The professional geneaologist in my family has often made the point that the authority figure (census enumerator, vicar etc) would have told them to make their mark, and, even if they were able to read and write, they would have followed instructions in a lot of cases. Its apparently a not uncommon thing to assume that the cross means "unable to read and write" . As Derek says .. .an ambiguous area.

Surname spellings were very mutable until fairly recent times. I have examples of that in my own family. Said geneaologist decided to organise a one name family get together .. at which we had about sixty people from the UK, New Zealand and so on (we even have some family in Lille apparently) ... all undoubtedly related, but 50% with the surname Shettle and 50% with the surname Shuttle. (The name seems to have split somewhere in the 19th century) ... so its not that unusual to have more than one spelling of the same family name.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM

BBC Radio 3 17 August 2008 20:35
Twenty Minutes; Fantasia On A Theme 3/3

Roy Palmer's series on the folksongs Vaughan Williams collected concludes with The Captain's Apprentice, quoted in Flos Campi, performed in this evening's Prom and which provides the haunting melody in the Norfolk Rhapsody. Roy explains the social as well as musical significance of this song of an apprentice destroyed by a brutal ship's captain.

Vaughan Williams heard the song, uncannily close to the plot of Peter Grimes, from 'Duggie' Carter, a King's Lynn fisherman and, in the very pub where he sat in the corner and noted it down, historian Dr Paul Richards explains the social as well as musical significance of the song. And Roy also unearths recordings from North America and the Norfolk traditional singer Harry Cox.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 05:25 PM

4 days left to Listen Again to Twenty Minutes:
Fantasia on a Theme 3/3 The Captain's Apprentice
Lots more RVW next week too!
BBC Radio 3
Sunday 24 Aug 9.15pm Vaughan Williams: Valiant for Truth
Monday 25 Aug 12.00 noon Composer of the Week: RVW 1/5
The Stage Works - Who Wants the English
11.00pm The Essay: RVW in the BBC Archives 1/3
Tuesday 26 Aug 12.00 noon RVW 2/5
The Stage Works - A Vision of Albion
11.00pm The Essay: RVW in the BBC Archives 2/3
Wednesday 27 Aug 12.00 noon RVW 3/5
The Stage Works - Shakespearean Portraits
Thursday 28 August 12.00 noon RVW 4/5
The Stage Works - A Masterpiece and a Problem
11.00pm The Essay: RVW in the BBC Archives 3/3
Friday 29 Aug 12.00 noon RVW 5/5
The Stage Works - The Labour of a Lifetime
And on BBC4 TV
Friday 29 Aug 8.00pm The Passions of Vaughan Williams
followed at 9.30pm by Cambridge Folk Festival 2008:
1/3 Seth Lakeman and Noah and the Whale
2/3 Martha Wainwright and Devon Sproule
3/3 The Imagined Village

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 08:03 AM

Wednesday 26 August 2008; Today is the fiftieth anniversary of the death of Vaughan Williams.

20:40 on BBC Radio 3 To mark 50 years since the death of Ralph Vaughan Williams, Steven Johnson visits the Royal College of Music to investigate the composer's time there. Although Vaughan Williams encountered difficulties there as a student, he eventually found his feet and his many years spent as a professor of composition helped build a considerable legacy.

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:09 AM

26th is today, and it's Tuesday!
Derek

Subject: RE: BBC Proms and RVW
From: GUEST,Adam M
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

It would appear that Charles Potiphar and I are distantly related.
His father William Potiphar was brother to my Great, Great, Great, Great Grandfather Edward Potiphar.