Any info about the green man?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

What a great thread!

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:32 PM

Forgot to say: Deirdre Stuart of the group Shaman wrote a song about the Green Man, which has been recorded by Shaman and by the Maryland group Kiva.

The lyrics:

I was on a hill one day watching all the winter grey, there I met the strangest man,
He said "Call me a fool that's what I am;
But I've got magic I can bring the flowers back make the birds all sing;
I'll bring the light back to the land; I'm the Green Man. The Green Man."

I said, "where' ve you been my friend, the greyness never seems to end;
The winter's been so long and cold, I feel I'm getting ever old".
He said "I've been sleeping beneath the snow gaining strength while the winds did blow;
So I can bring light to your land I'm the Green Man. The Green Man".

Green Man bring the colors back to the land;
Green Man, You're the Green Man, The Green Man.

Can you see the Green Man, rising from his winter sleep?
I can see the Green Man awakening, awakening.

Just then he smiled and he turned around, wonders lay before me on the ground,
All the land had seemed to change, all the colors rearranged.
He said, "All this color doesn't mean a thing unless there's a winter before a spring;
Take a good look at your land------I'm the Green Man. The Green Man".

Green Man, bring the colors back to the land.
Green Man, You're the Green Man. The Green Man.
Green Man, bring the colors back to the land.
Green Man, You're the Green Man. The Green Man.
The Green Man.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:16 PM

Snuffy has it almost right...Lady Raglan first applied the term "Green Man" to "foliate head" carvings in church architecture. But she did not actually coin it, Wikipedia notwithstanding. She took the name from a common English name for a pub or inn.

As Raglan herself says,

"I should like to remind you that there is an extraordinary number of 'Green Man' inns all over the country. I have noticed them particularly in East Anglia."

What she was doing in her articles was to argue for historical continuity between "foliate head" carvings and more contemporary phenomena, in particular Jack-in-the-Green enactments at May time, and the common pub name The Green Man.

Many Green Man inns featured signs illustrating a character who looks more like Jack in the Green than like a foliate head.

theleveller may be right or wrong about the Green Man and Jack-in-the-Green being different, depending on whether we accept or reject Raglan's idea. If we reject it, then "foliate head" carvings and "Jack in the Green" enactments are indeed totally different phenomena...and neither one is the same as "The Green Man," which is a traditional name for inns and pubs, and a traditional green-clad character on inn signs. If we accept Raglan's idea, then they are all manifestations of the same tradition.

Interestingly, if we were to partially accept Raglan, it would be easier to accept that "The Green Man" (pub character) and "Jack in the Green" (chimney-sweeper's mayday enactment) were the same; they look very similar, and are also roughly contemporary. "Foliate Head" carvings are from a totally different time period, and look very different from the other two traditions. So I would argue that it's possible that Jack-in-the-Green IS the Green Man, but that the church carvings are something else again.

leeneia's idea is interesting, and applies well to some versions of the foliate head, but not very well to others. I think it was a symbol whose meaning changed over time, and also one that different carvers used to express different ideas.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:17 PM

I'm not prepared to do a whole lot of reading on this matter. But from what I've seen, there is no real evidence that the green man was green.

For all we know, the leaves on the originals might have been the yellow-green of spring, the deep green of summer, the orange and gold of autumn or the sere brown of winter.

In fact, given the human penchant for playing with ideas, there could have been 'green men' with leaves in all four colors.

Seeing that - i.e., a human face with leaves from the four seasons around it - would lead me to conclude that the face represents our old friend the sun, who brings the seasons.

Why not?

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:32 AM

Whoops I seem to jumped over Mrs Scarecrow!!
I was of course referring back one to the Logo.
I thinks MS is refering to the John Thompson/Cloudstreet song which I am sure MGAS sings.
I can recommend the others mentioned as well of course.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:25 AM

And so does Forest Tracks
Actually designed for us by Dave Williams .

Andy

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM

MGAS sins a wonderful green man song I'm not sure who it is by. Other lovely songs about the Green Man have been written by Jon Heslop and Steve Thomasson. I have also written one call Sing to Welcome back the Green Man

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:08 AM

Folk Legacy records has the Green Man for a logo.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 09:55 AM

Clive Hicks did a book a few years ago about the resurgance of the Green Man, but the only songs I'm aware of are specifically about Jack in the Green/JITG Festivals (Rod Sherman, Jethro Tull/Ian Anderson et al).

If you PM Lady Penelope, she might be able to get you a copy of the book, her husband 'Parker' took the photos.

LTS

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Willa
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 09:02 AM

Hi Sam. good to 'see' you!
These might be of interest http://www.ryedale.co.uk/ryedale/misc/ryedalehistory/greenman.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A353161

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 08:39 AM

The term "Green Man" was coined by Lady Raglan, in her article "The Green Man in Church Architecture" in The Folklore Journal.[3] The figure is also often referred to (perhaps erroneously) as Jack in the green.

Most medieval representations of him are in churches and other religious buildings.

So obviously an ancient, Celtic, pagan phenomenon then.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM

Mike Harding has done lots of research into the Green Man; have a look on his website. There are Green Man carvings right across Yorkshire, especially in York Minster - there's also one in Rudston Church where the famous Rudston Monolith stands.

Jack in the Green is, traditionally, not the same as the Green Man. It was a tradition started by chimney sweeps to earn money in the lean summer months. You can find info on both in the superb book, Enland In Particular, puiblished by Commn Ground.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:45 AM

Sam, have you seen this excellent little book: "The Hastings Jack in the Green" written by Keith Leech (ISBN 0 9514498 0 X)? Micca sent me over a copy. It is quite interesting and full of history as well as superb photos.

Nice to see you!

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,Amber
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:38 AM

Cloudstreet did a very good one called The Green Man with a good chorus. You can get it if you type Cloudstreet song lyrics, or something similar, into Google

Amber

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM

A knowledge search brings up a lot of threads on this subject, it's certainly a good starting point

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:20 AM

The Corries did one that mentioned the Green Man but it wasn't really about him. It's Scottish and I don't know the name of it.

Subject: RE: Any info about the green man?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:17 AM

Far Away Tom by Dave Goulder

Subject: Any info about the green man?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 07:09 AM

Do you know any songs / tunes / traditions etc.. about the green man? Any traditions in the yorksshire area? or your area? Anny info would be greatfuly recived.

Hope you are all ahving a great festival season.

Cheers, Sam