Copyright Questions - Collection of Old Songs

Subject: Collection of Old Songs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:41 AM

I have a collection of old songs that I have been doing some research
on, I'm thinking are in the pd, that I would like to use, but while I was researching trying to find information on some of these songs, I happened to come upon someone else's collection with a song similar to one I have and where it says, Author unknown. Variant of a British broadside ballad, Collected by Edward Leach and published as Susan Strayed The Briny Beach, #21 in Folk Ballads And Songs Of The Lower Coast, by The National Museum of Canada (1965) Crown Copyrights Reserved.
Can anybody tell me what "Crown Copyrights Reserved" means and if I still have a right to use the song I already have in my collection.
Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs
From: GUEST,Marymac 90
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:32 PM

I suggest you retitle your thread to something like
"meaning of Crown Copyrights Reserved?" We do have
people on here who know a lot more than me about
such things, and love to share their info, but your
thread title doesn't make it clear what you're
looking for.

Marymac

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:39 PM

Copyright laws are simple in theory but complicated in application. I am no lawyer but I think that you may have to seperate the song from the collection.
Example: A broadsheet song published in 1880 may be a long time in Public domain. If a folksong collector hears someone in a Newfoundland outport singing the song in 1980 and publishes it in a book does he own the rights to the song. No, but he owns the right to copying it from his book. If you got the song from another source he can have no claim. However, when you say the song is similar do not use the "similar" version. Is the collection of the "someone else" in public domain? Even if not the publisher waived most rights by using "author unknown".
Crown Copyright in Canada has been an area of dispute for many years. The government holds the copyright on behalf of its citizens. The argument is then do the citizens have the right to copy it?
Copies are usually allowed for non commercial use provided that the copy is not changed and creditation is given.
Copyright in Canada remains until the last author dies plus 50 years. Published crown copyright works are in copyright until 50 years after they were first published. If the author of the copyright assigned the work to the Crown, then it would go into public domain 70 years after the authors' death. Unpublished Crown Copyrights do not enter the public domain until 125 years after the title was created.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:38 PM

GUEST,
What do you want to do with it? The only problem arises if you want to do something commercial with it. If it was published in a book you are allowed to use a certain percentage of the book's content for educational purposes, say in a thesis. People rip off trad material all the time and very seldom is anyone sued. It is customary and good practice to credit your sources. I always try to do this. Broadsides themselves prior to 1938 can't be copyrighted as they are all out of copyright and no-one now has the right to copyright them so they are in the pd. If you are still worried try contacting the publishers.

I'm no legal expert. I'm just referring to general practice here.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:15 PM

If you want useful replies, then you need to tell us exactly what your 'collection of old songs' is.

Is it a book you think is out of copyright? Is it a body of material you have personally copied from various print sources over a period of time? Is it a collection of songs you have directly noted or otherwise recorded from singers? If so, were these, so far as you know, traditional or revival singers?

That would be a start. The form of words you quote suggests that you found the 'similar version' you mention at 'GEST's' Newfoundland website. When asking questions of this sort, please tell us everything you already know: vague generalities lead to time-wasting and won't produce helpful results.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM

The song , as collected from Arthur Nicolle, 1958, appears in Peacock, Songs of the Newfoundland Outports, 1965, Crown copyright. It is slightly different from the version posted in GEST, which seems to be the Leach version.

A few of the songs in "...Outports" are from singers who have recorded lps or cds. This adds a further complication, as they may hold a copyright. An album of "...Outports" songs with a song(s) by Arthur Nicolle is mentioned in a review by JSTOR, but I have no access to the journal.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:41 AM

Crown Copyright will no longer arise in respect of works made by servants of the Commonwealth of Canada in performance of their duties since Canada ceased to be a colony.

Whether any equivalent Canadian copyright subsists will need to be addressed under Canadian Copyright law.

God only knows what the position will be in the USA.

For works made while Canada was a colony and before the commencement of the UK 1988 act, most Crown copyrights are 50 years from making or publishing.

UK Crown Copyright may subsist in a work made by Her Majesty of by an officer or servant ofthe Crown in the course of his duties. Under the 1956 Act the provision was wider and extended to works made or publshed under the control or direction of the Crown.

This is starting to look as if we need a lot more facts. Why would they have been crown copyright in the first place? The musical and literary works would probably not...

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:50 AM

Canada as a Commonwealth member still uses the term "crown" to mean basically "the government" in most all aspects. What the Canadian government claims as copyright is still called Crown Copyright in our lawbooks and it will probably remain so as long as the British soverign is also our ceremonial head of state.
It would apply to works created by government, created by others by commission of government, or works that were ceded to government or the people by the author or owner. My guess is that the publishing rights to the Leach collection was either commissioned or ceded, probably the latter. Most of the material in the collection would be PD in any case.
There has been much argument here in the past about the governments right to restrict access to public owned documents. Classified documents are already well protected by other legislation so this copyright is only about revenue. As best that I can understand the application is that non commercial duplication is permitted but if the government smells money to be made they reserve the right to collect.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:04 PM

I would be very surprised if an ordinary copyright of an author later assigned to the Crown would properly be called a Crown copyright. The ordinary rules of duration and usage would apply to such a right.

Subject: RE: Collection of Old Songs-COPYRIGHT QUESTIONS
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:25 PM

Thanks, Sandy. Crown Copyright is applicable.
See "Crown Copyright and Licensing," and a discussion of Copyright and Crown Copyright- http://publications.gc.ca/helpAndInfo/cc-dac/general-e.html

Section 12 of the Copyright Act is the legal instrument governing Crown Copyright.
"12. Without prejudice to any rights or privileges of the Crown, where any work is, or has been, prepared or published by or under the direction or control of Her Majesty or any government department, the copyright in the work, subject to any agreement with the author, belong to Her Majesty and in that case shall continue for the remainder of the calendar year of the first publication of the work and for a period of fifty years following the end of that calendar year [S. C. 1993, c.44, s.60(1)."

A new publication on possible copyright changes has just been issued by the Government of Canada-
"An Act to Amend the Copyright Act." Public Works and Government Services Canada. Publishing and Depository Services, Ottawa K1A 0S5, telephone [phone] (North America only). Cost $16.00 Canadian.
June 12, 2008, Issued by House of Commons, 64 pages.

I have not seen a copy of this proposal, but I have been told that the '50-year' provision for Crown Copyright will be extended to 70 years. A library near you should help with copies of Acts and proposed Acts.