Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music

Subject: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: jimmyt
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 09:50 PM

I am curious about the influence of Travellers to traditional Celtic music. From what I have read on this site, I understand that a lot of fine musicians are travellers, especially the ullaean pipers. IS there a seperate genre of Traveller Celtic music or is it pretty integrated in the rest of Celtic music. I don't think this has been addressed in this forum before. Any info will be appreciated

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: Gedpipes
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:59 AM

What do you mean by Celtic?
The pipes are called Uilleann btw

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 03:59 AM

Traveller Johnny Doran was probably the greatest single influence on Irish piping here in the West of Ireland (if not throughout the country) - and almost certainly the greatest piper within living memory.
The same can be said of tinsmith/fiddle player John Docherty and his brothers Michael and Simon and far as fiddle music goes in Donegal.
There has been a long tradition of Traveller musicians here in which in the past was, I believe, influential on the settled music, but tended to die out when the Travellers lost their community status with the dying out of the traditional occupations such as tinsmithing and horse-dealing.
In the 70s it was difficult (nigh impossible) to find musicians within the Traveller community, and it was difficult to get information on the subject due to the extreme racism which is still, sadly, very much alive and crawling here (it raises its ugly head here on Mudcat occasionally - usually anonymously, as is to be expected).
Within music circles, things are now changing, with the focusing of attention on their music by such organisations as the one based at Limerick University.
There is now an annual Johnny Doran week-end in Ireland. Try the Na Piobairí Uilleann website for information, also try Googling Johnny Doran, Irish Traveller musicians etc - there's loads of information out there. A similar set-up has been established in Scotland at Aberdeen University, try the Elphinstone Institute web-site.
As far as their influence on singing - how long have you got? It has been enormous and has been researched extensively by collector, the late Tom Munnelly and by by Americans Alen McWeeney and Artelia Court.
Good luck,
Jim Carroll
PS I take it you are American (the 'Celtic' reference suggests you are!)

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM

Yes, I am an American, Jim and thanks for all the info. Thanks also Gedpipes for the correction in my spelling on the Uilleann pipes. Perhaps we should have a spelling bee. SOrry to be obtuse, but what is the correct catch-all name for what I described as (Celtic?) I am referring to traditional music from Ireland and Scotland. Is that a better nomenclature?

I still am trying to get a handle on this, let me rephrase. Is traveller music a seperate genre performed by travellers, and does the traveller musical community have their own music? If not, are travellers integrated in to performing with non-travellers in playing essentially Irish or Scottish traditional music in a homogenous blend of musicians, both travellers and non-travellers? Have I just made this more confusing?

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:55 AM

I'm sure Jim Carroll can point you towards some reasonably available recordings of traveller (Irish) musicians and, in particular, singers. Try listening to them and to non-traveller, non-professional/commercial musicians and singers and make your own judgements. Enjoy.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:34 AM

jimmyt: I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but it's better to say "traditional music from Ireland and Scotland" (or something similar) if that's what you want to discuss.The term Celtic has been used in such a variety of ways, some of which are downright stupid, that it tends to be be more trouble than it's worth!

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: peregrina
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM

the term 'celtic' used this way does seem to be a standard

northamericanism--it may not be quite correct and may raise hackles elsewhere, but it is widely understood over there.

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

You may want to browse around here

Subject: RE: Origins: traveller influence in Celtic music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM

Irish Travellers play/played the standard Irish repertoire in the recognised styles - as far as I know there is not a distinct Traveller style or repertoire (though Alen McWeeney includes a tune on an oildrum on his LP of Travellers). I suppose you could describe Margaret Barry's banjo playing as a street performers style, but that might be stretching the point.
Having said that, many of the old Traveller musicians were showmen and developed 'display' tricks - I once held the bow for Michael Dunne while he, holding the fiddle, fingered the notes, (nearest I ever got to playing an instrument - I was magnificent!). He then gave a wonderful display of playing holding the fiddle behind his back, then over his shouders, behind his head. Johnny Doran was noted for playing the pipes while standing up, and there is evidence that this was common among the earlier Travelling pipers.
Singing is a different matter and somewhat more complicated.
The Travellers have/had the standard repertoire of songs; Irish and Scots Travellers favoured the long, classic Child ballads and have preserved many of these long after they disappeared from the settled repertoire. They have their own English language songs (songs made by Travellers about Travelling life. They also have/had a few songs in their own language - Shelta-cant-gammon-Romany-whatever specific group you care to mention. There is said to be a specific Travellers singing style, particularly among the women, but that's really deep water and probably deserves a separate thread --- personally I'm sceptical on that one.
Recordings:
Johnny Doran, Felix Doran, The Dohertys (numerous) The Raineys, Paddy Keenan, The Fureys, Songs of The Irish Travellers, Whisht (songs and stories) and a lovely CD rom on the Dunne family if you can find it (maybe through Limerick University).
We are rather proud of our CD 'From Puck To Appleby' - available from Musical Traditions web-site, but that's just songs (with a couple of stories).
Say if you need more information on any of these.
Jim Carroll
PS I agree with Greg's comments, - as far as I'm concerned 'Celtic' is a Glaswegian football team (sort of!!!)